Topic: was ennis gay ?

[tpe]

That's true. But children do understand much more that we can imagine - in their own way. and the explanation about that awful scene that Ennis gave to Jack showed pretty much clear that Ennis was aware of everything, ,maybe even too aware, coz it formed a lifetime fear in him.
On the other hand gave him a strong awareness what "queerness" is all about, which other young man in 60' maybe wouldn't know... 

Yes, but parents normally try not to test the limits of their understanding.  Which is what makes the action of Ennis's father more unfathomable.

In any case, I personally think that Ennis was homosexual -- not having to use the term "gay", if one wants to be free of certain socio-cultural aspects that come with that term.

[vedrana]

Yes, but parents normally try not to test the limits of their understanding.  Which is what makes the action of Ennis's father more unfathomable.

In any case, I personally think that Ennis was homosexual -- not having to use the term "gay", if one wants to be free of certain socio-cultural aspects that come with that term.

You're right about the parent especially the rigid and conservative ones who didn't care for the right and effective method of education, but only for reaching the goal (which they often missed just because of that attitude).

I am sure that if no Jack - Ennis would've never have anything with other man. Two of them were one!

Jack had more tendency towards men, but also can be because he was searching for Ennis whom he couldn't have.
I see the things in this was and Jake G. said pretty much the same about it. And when he says something....  

[myprivatejack]

Did the 9-year old Ennis have any conscious knowledge of his own sexual identity?  Frankly, I don't think so -- at least not consciously.  But the Earl and Rich expisode clearly embedded itself deeply in his psyche, and this would lead of conflict later on.

I don't think either that a 9 years-old boy can be very conscious of his sexual identity,in a clear way as he will be few years after.But what I believe and I meant in my former post,is that his father told him that that had happenned to those men "for being faggot,something against God' laws and men understanding,something very bad and that deserves a punishment like this"...And that this idea in such a tender mind,can easily create a hate-love's idea some years after;the idea one usually creates when there's a denial without an explanation,without a reason.And that hate-love idea,rejection-attraction,can go to the surface when there're some ideal circumstances,like it happenned with Ennis and his first friendship with Jack,who,by the way,made him "beat the hook"...

[tpe]

You're right about the parent especially the rigid and conservative ones who didn't care for the right and effective method of education, but only for reaching the goal (which they often missed just because of that attitude).

I am sure that if no Jack - Ennis would've never have anything with other man. Two of them were one!

Jack had more tendency towards men, but also can be because he was searching for Ennis whom he couldn't have.
I see the things in this was and Jake G. said pretty much the same about it. And when he says something....  

Well, I would say that both had the (latent?) tendency, except that Jack was more open about it.  He had no hang-ups, so to speak...

[tpe]

I don't think either that a 9 years-old boy can be very conscious of his sexual identity,in a clear way as he will be few years after.But what I believe and I meant in my former post,is that his father told him that that had happenned to those men "for being faggot,something against God' laws and men understanding,something very bad and that deserves a punishment like this"...And that this idea in such a tender mind,can easily create a hate-love's idea some years after;the idea one usually creates when there's a denial without an explanation,without a reason.And that hate-love idea,rejection-attraction,can go to the surface when there're some ideal circumstances,like it happenned with Ennis and his first friendship with Jack,who,by the way,made him "beat the hook"...

But to have done this would be to assume that the child prior knowledge of sexual relations -- something that I think conservative fundamentalist parents don't assume with children.  In fact, I would say that they normally choose to hide the possibility of "unnatural" acts from the very young -- trying to pretend that they don't really exist in a moral world.  That such things exist in other places could later be brushed aside as aberrations of the cities of Sodom...

[myprivatejack]

But to have done this would be to assume that the child prior knowledge of sexual relations -- something that I think conservative fundamentalist parents don't assume with children.  In fact, I would say that they normally choose to hide the possibility of "unnatural" acts from the very young -- trying to pretend that they don't really exist in a moral world.  That such things exist in other places could later be brushed aside as aberrations of the cities of Sodom...

I have never been a conservative fundamentalist mother,but,even so,I suppose there are some other ways to explain to a pre-teenager boy how they arrive to this world.And it's in this sense that Ennis father could have told his sons,when showing them Earl's corpse,that these men had done "things" against natural God's laws.I suppose that it's worse to show a murdered man to a 9 years-old child than to tell him why this man has been murdered,above all if the child asks this why...
Whatever it was,the idea of "being with another man" as something linked with sin can be created in children's mind,even if you don't explain them anything about sex in a clear way.And this can produce an ambivalent reaction,as I said formerly,of attraction-repulsion that can be after addressed in a sense or the other...

[vedrana]

Well, I would say that both had the (latent?) tendency, except that Jack was more open about it.  He had no hang-ups, so to speak...

I always wonder where is a line between a tendency and a determined homosexuality... I don't believe that all people are the same when it comes to their preference. 

[vedrana]

But to have done this would be to assume that the child prior knowledge of sexual relations -- something that I think conservative fundamentalist parents don't assume with children.  In fact, I would say that they normally choose to hide the possibility of "unnatural" acts from the very young -- trying to pretend that they don't really exist in a moral world.  That such things exist in other places could later be brushed aside as aberrations of the cities of Sodom...

I believe that it wasn't necessary for Ennis to know all about physical relationship at the time when he was 9, but the horrible picture was fixed in his mind and during years he became more aware how the things go in sex and he incorporated his fear into his new knowledge. So it was a process triggered by a Earl's tortured dead body in a fragile memory of a 9 year old. That trigger just initiated an avalanche of Ennis's lifetime suffering. 

[zanzibar]

I think Ennis is hard to categorize. He fell in love with person, not his gender.

Ennis was never attracted to another man, but neither to a woman. Yes, I know, he had his wife and girlfriend, but he didn't really put himself into those relationships. Those relationships weren't mutual.
On the short story he says: "I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin about you."

So, I guess Ennis wasn't homosexual neither straight. He was just... a man with feelings.

[vedrana]

I think Ennis is hard to categorize. He fell in love with person, not his gender.

Ennis was never attracted to another man, but neither to a woman. Yes, I know, he had his wife and girlfriend, but he didn't really put himself into those relationships. Those relationships weren't mutual.
On the short story he says: "I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin about you."

So, I guess Ennis wasn't homosexual neither straight. He was just... a man with feelings.

I quote this! 

[tpe]

I have never been a conservative fundamentalist mother,but,even so,I suppose there are some other ways to explain to a pre-teenager boy how they arrive to this world.And it's in this sense that Ennis father could have told his sons,when showing them Earl's corpse,that these men had done "things" against natural God's laws.I suppose that it's worse to show a murdered man to a 9 years-old child than to tell him why this man has been murdered,above all if the child asks this why...
Whatever it was,the idea of "being with another man" as something linked with sin can be created in children's mind,even if you don't explain them anything about sex in a clear way.And this can produce an ambivalent reaction,as I said formerly,of attraction-repulsion that can be after addressed in a sense or the other...

Possible, but I still think it's improbable, especially with a 9 year old in a conservative society.  But I would assume that Ennis's father was just a bit "different", and I think that he was directly responsible for Ennis's conflicted nature.  The incident must have been expecuially traumatic to the young Ennis.

[tpe]

I always wonder where is a line between a tendency and a determined homosexuality... I don't believe that all people are the same when it comes to their preference. 

Some people would say that everyone has a latent tendency to homosexual acts.  I don't know, really.  Perhaps there is a grain of truth to it.  But I tend to think that orientation is a great part genetic, if not entirely.

[tpe]

I think Ennis is hard to categorize. He fell in love with person, not his gender.

Ennis was never attracted to another man, but neither to a woman. Yes, I know, he had his wife and girlfriend, but he didn't really put himself into those relationships. Those relationships weren't mutual.
On the short story he says: "I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin about you."

So, I guess Ennis wasn't homosexual neither straight. He was just... a man with feelings.

Welcome zanzibar! 

Well, as far as attraction to other men -- we really can't tell.  The film never shows it, but that doesn't prove anything.  Repressed homosexuals are known to exhibit the same behavior, and expose conflicted natures in the forced attempt to repress them.  Ennis clearly exhibits such behavior.

For me, the gender of a person is intrinsic to the person himself/herself.  One cannot separate the two.  The fact that Ennnis only truly loved a man (I don't think he ever loved any woman the same way) is enough reason to define his true sexual orientation.

Just my opinion, of course.

[vedrana]

Some people would say that everyone has a latent tendency to homosexual acts.  I don't know, really.  Perhaps there is a grain of truth to it.  But I tend to think that orientation is a great part genetic, if not entirely.

I disagree with this...

I believe that homosexuality can be caused by a numerous factors in life. Also, I believe that if a man or a woman madly falls in love with a person af the same gender it is possible that if this doesn't work, he/she can continue searching for this partner in other people of the same gender (which was partially case with Jack).

I think that some people have choice, but some don't, in the matter of their partner's gender.

[tpe]

I disagree with this...

I believe that homosexuality can be caused by a numerous factors in life. Also, I believe that if a man or a woman madly falls in love with a person af the same gender it is possible that if this doesn't work, he/she can continue searching for this partner in other people of the same gender (which was partially case with Jack).

I think that some people have choice, but some don't, in the matter of their partner's gender.

But as I said, I believe that it is "in great part" genetic.  This implies that is is caused by numerous factors.  But I think that there is a strong genetic component to it.

I don't have scientific proof for it.  Only anecdotal evidence.  In my family, I can trace a homosexual thread for up to 4 generations back on the father side of my family.  There are 2 of us in my generation, in fact.  I don't think it can be coincidence. 

There is no such thread on my mother's side that I know of at the present.

[vedrana]

But as I said, I believe that it is "in great part" genetic.  This implies that is is caused by numerous factors.  But I think that there is a strong genetic component to it.

I don't have scientific proof for it.  Only anecdotal evidence.  In my family, I can trace a homosexual thread for up to 4 generations back on the father side of my family.  There are 2 of us in my generation, in fact.  I don't think it can be coincidence. 

There is no such thread on my mother's side that I know of at the present.

Genetic is a powerful thing, I admit.

There was a story in Oprah where in one (very religious) family out of 7 children (5 brothers and 2 sisters) even 4 of males were homosexuals! I was stunned. It was not a coincidence, surely! But their parents never allowed them to talk about it in the house..

What I wanted to say is just that a certain circumstances can heavily induce this kind of sexual behavior, and that some people can chose and some can't. IMHO

[tpe]

Genetic is a powerful thing, I admit.

There was a story in Oprah where in one (very religious) family out of 7 children (5 brothers and 2 sisters) even 4 of males were homosexuals! I was stunned. It was not a coincidence, surely! But their parents never allowed them to talk about it in the house..

What I wanted to say is just that a certain circumstances can heavily induce this kind of sexual behavior, and that some people can chose and some can't. IMHO

Well, I actually know at least 6 families where at least 2 of the brothers/sisters was gay/lesbian.  In one instance, all 3 boys tuned out to be gay!  I don't think this is uncommon...

The possible connection with Ennis is that a genetic component would be completely independent of background and behavior.    Homosecuals don't behave in one way.  In fact, a large majority of them would behave the same way that Ennis did, especially among the older generations.

[vedrana]

Well, I actually know at least 6 families where at least 2 of the brothers/sisters was gay/lesbian.  In one instance, all 3 boys tuned out to be gay!  I don't think this is uncommon...

The possible connection with Ennis is that a genetic component would be completely independent of background and behavior.    Homosecuals don't behave in one way.  In fact, a large majority of them would behave the same way that Ennis did, especially among the older generations.

Still, I don't believe that Ennis was gay. Had he been gay, he would have at least look at some other man, right? But he cared for no one. Only Jack!

[Matt Nasty]

Still, I don't believe that Ennis was gay. Had he been gay, he would have at least look at some other man, right? But he cared for no one. Only Jack!

but Ennis was strongly denying his homosexuality, even with Jack he was never fully open to himself about his feelings and that was with the man he loved! i think if he ever caught himself looking at other men hed be appauled...also jsut because it was enver shown or written in the film or SS doesnt techniqually mean it never happened....

[vedrana]

but Ennis was strongly denying his homosexuality, even with Jack he was never fully open to himself about his feelings and that was with the man he loved! i think if he ever caught himself looking at other men hed be appauled...also jsut because it was enver shown or written in the film or SS doesnt techniqually mean it never happened....

In SS was clearly said that he never had even the idea of doing it with other man.

[Matt Nasty]

In SS was clearly said that he never had even the idea of doing it with other man.

no but that doesnt mean hes not gay, proloux has stated he was BOTH gay and homophobic, the homophobia could be the reason for this.

[vedrana]

no but that doesnt mean hes not gay, proloux has stated he was BOTH gay and homophobic, the homophobia could be the reason for this.

If AP stated that, there was no need for 28 pages of this topic...

[myprivatejack]

Still, I don't believe that Ennis was gay. Had he been gay, he would have at least look at some other man, right? But he cared for no one. Only Jack!

Not necessarily,Loreen... Don't forget Ennis was a very stoic man,able to repress his innest feelings even about the only PERSON he has really loved in all his life.What else was he going to do,then,with any other man,bearing in mind his fears and the environment he lived in?.
And by the way,believe me;once someone has had a relationship with another same sex person that hasn't worked,he or she is looking for LOVE,in capital letters,no matter with who,as long as he or she can be loved in his/her turn-unless you're 100% gay or lesbian,bisexuality doesn't go to an only path...-.
  Please,don't make so many differentiations about homosexual way of feeling,loving or just being;too many differentiations "the others" make already with us...All of us are PERSONS with a heart and feelings,who gives a damn about if loving this person or this other is genetic,learned or because you feel like doing it?.

[jon4]

I don't think either that a 9 years-old boy can be very conscious of his sexual identity,in a clear way as he will be few years after.But what I believe and I meant in my former post,is that his father told him that that had happenned to those men "for being faggot,something against God' laws and men understanding,something very bad and that deserves a punishment like this"...And that this idea in such a tender mind,can easily create a hate-love's idea some years after;the idea one usually creates when there's a denial without an explanation,without a reason.And that hate-love idea,rejection-attraction,can go to the surface when there're some ideal circumstances,like it happenned with Ennis and his first friendship with Jack,who,by the way,made him "beat the hook"...

.... I think Ennis was attracted to Jack since the very first moment he saw him in front of Aguirre's trailer, there is a great ( and subtle ) shot of him hiding his eyes away from Jack's while they were waiting to get in..... and that look in his eyes..... ( What a great actor and what a great director !!! )..... but he didn't  want to accept it then........ I remember during the final confrontation how Ennis spits in front of Jack...... spitting is a very nasty ( macho ) way to express disgust, women never do that (at least I haven't seen it ),..... but some straight men do, and some macho homosexuals too, sometimes, unconsciously, in front of someone they like, to try to hide their feelings....... "they are not queer".....

... I've been reading the latest posts to this thread and many true things are said, but I've quoted this particular one, myprivatejack, because in my personal case, is definitely yes, I´ve been aware of my sexual attraction to men as long as I can remember, and I remember things from when I was two years old, this feeling was very painful to bear specially in early childhood, not because of the fact of being homosexual, but because of the reactions of the people around me,.....you know..... so since very early age I had to learn how to hide it to protect myself, to survive, to be accepted,........ but even though, unlike Ennis, I accepted myself long time ago, his role in BBM has made the dormant sorrow from childhood flow freely now.......  

[vedrana]

Not necessarily,Loreen... Don't forget Ennis was a very stoic man,able to repress his innest feelings even about the only PERSON he has really loved in all his life.What else was he going to do,then,with any other man,bearing in mind his fears and the environment he lived in?.
And by the way,believe me;once someone has had a relationship with another same sex person that hasn't worked,he or she is looking for LOVE,in capital letters,no matter with who,as long as he or she can be loved in his/her turn-unless you're 100% gay or lesbian,bisexuality doesn't go to an only path...-.
  Please,don't make so many differentiations about homosexual way of feeling,loving or just being;too many differentiations "the others" make already with us...All of us are PERSONS with a heart and feelings,who gives a damn about if loving this person or this other is genetic,learned or because you feel like doing it?.

Gulp! 

You talking to me?? 

Really?? 

  Hi babe! I just have some theories and I am inquiring others and myself about them. And I may be wrong, but if I am right...  ^^)

Well, Ennis stated that he never wanted another man (SS), so for me it is only to believe that it was Jack who he loved AND wanted. That's how I see it and how I sense it... 

[Matt Nasty]

If AP stated that, there was no need for 28 pages of this topic...

well AP did so maybe there was no need, however its still a great topic to discuss and explore all aspects of ennis seual identity and homophobia.

[Asali]

Still, I don't believe that Ennis was gay. Had he been gay, he would have at least look at some other man, right? But he cared for no one. Only Jack!

Just because Ennis may never have looked at another man or looked at one in the same way as he did Jack does not mean he was not gay.

but Ennis was strongly denying his homosexuality, even with Jack he was never fully open to himself about his feelings and that was with the man he loved! i think if he ever caught himself looking at other men hed be appauled...also jsut because it was enver shown or written in the film or SS doesnt techniqually mean it never happened....

Exactly. He knew the way he felt about Jack but this was difficult to admit even to himself. Even if he did look at other men no one matched up to Jack, so in his mind Jack was the only man he had feelings for.

[tpe]

I see that this interesting topic is moving on again. 

Well, most of you know where I stand, but that is beside the pouist, correct?

Some of us here can agree to disagree, but it is wonderful nonetheless discussing our differences and why they are so...

[holyfool]

             - labels, labels, labels...  most people criticize what they can not understand, they will keep flushing themselves down the toilet of their own ignorance.

[tpe]

             - labels, labels, labels...  most people criticize what they can not understand, they will keep flushing themselves down the toilet of their own ignorance.

Well, as I said in one of the lost posts from last week, labels are what the individual makes it out to be.  Labels by themselves are not inherently evil.  It is what the person makes of it.