Topic: was ennis gay ?

[lancecowboy]

Thomas and Andrew; I think both of you are right...Very often,persons who belong to any concrete ethnic or whatever group,need to join themselves,as a way of recognising each other,and sometimes,to help each other too.Because difference,or the fear to difference,to the unknown,has been the "battle horse" that other persons included in "normal parametres" have used to marginalise,depict when not simply destroy who have this other label of "different".Surely for an unconscious fear of being in their innest self just like these ones...This and the power wishes have always been what have create and developed wars;the rich against the poor,the powerful against the weak,the "normal" against the "different".Maybe is something inherent with human being,but it's time to change it,or at least trying to change it.And sometimes one must begin for the semantic,as the first step to be free of labels and of what they mean.

That's an interesting point. Birds of a feather flock together, and all that. It's certainly a comfort to enter the gay district of any city, but that, again, has more to do with the prejudices of others rather than with Ennis' love for Jack. He had as much in common with other gay men as he did with Don Wroe. In fact, he probably had more in common with Don Wroe, since they are friends, than he did with the typical urban gay bar fly.

To find security and comfort with others who share the same "label" while the outside world is hostile, that has been the common experience for all minority groups, immigrants, etc. And when society becomes more accepting, invariably those "ghettos" disappear and future generations are integrated. To hold on to those "labels" is to hold on to the past.

Ennis is gay only in the sense that he is in love with Jack, a man. But that has little significance, compared to the love they share, whatever their gender. Ennis' identity is more than a three letter word. It has as much meaning as Ennis is a man, or Ennis is a ranch hand, or Ennis is a father, or Ennis is a husband. The complexity of a person's identity cannot be encapsulated in a single word, perhaps not even in a collection of words. Writers and poets try to create a character by using words, and some succeed. Most of of time, we have only caricatures. Ennis Del Mar is one of those rare characters that came alive, especially after Heath breathed life into him.

Just my two cents...

[tpe]

What you say is true, tpe, about the circumstances, but NOT about the love. It is similarly true when applied to other labels of race, creed, etc. When we speak of labels, we speak not of the thing being labeled, but of the prejudices in us that cause us to label. It is what Immanuel Kant referred to in his distinction between noumenon and phenomenon. Our labels are our responses to the phenomenon, not the noumenon itself. "Gay" has nothing to do with the real Ennis, only our response to his love of Jack, a man. It says nothing about that love.

Labels are what get people killed, Protestants and Catholics, Communists and Fascists, Straight or Gay, etc. They divide people, when they should strife to understand one another. They group people into pigeon holes, when they should be setting people free - free of chains that tie them to stereotypes, free of boundaries that keep them from being whoever they want to be, free of limits that says they can do this but not that.

When we are free of labels, then we will be truly free, free at last.

Hello lance!

I know that this is an old discussion between the two of us. 

But "love" itelf is a label.  It matters that we call it "love", and not "sin" or "lust", as others would call it.  The phenomenon is the same, but see how much of a difference the viewpoint makes.

It's not my position to insist whether or not "gay" is appropriate for Ennis or not.  But I would say that it does matter.
"Labels" do matter very much.  I don't think we can and I don't think we should be free of labels.

[tpe]

Thomas and Andrew; I think both of you are right...Very often,persons who belong to any concrete ethnic or whatever group,need to join themselves,as a way of recognising each other,and sometimes,to help each other too.Because difference,or the fear to difference,to the unknown,has been the "battle horse" that other persons included in "normal parametres" have used to marginalise,depict when not simply destroy who have this other label of "different".Surely for an unconscious fear of being in their innest self just like these ones...This and the power wishes have always been what have create and developed wars;the rich against the poor,the powerful against the weak,the "normal" against the "different".Maybe is something inherent with human being,but it's time to change it,or at least trying to change it.And sometimes one must begin for the semantic,as the first step to be free of labels and of what they mean.

I do think that it is inherent with human nature, but I admit that I don't consider it something we must or can change. 

All of language is an attempt to label various aspects of human experience.  Just because they are approximates and can be conflcting/contradictory doesn't mean that they are superfluous. 

I do understand your point, nonetheless. 

[lancecowboy]

Hello lance!

I know that this is an old discussion between the two of us. 

But "love" itelf is a label.  It matters that we call it "love", and not "sin" or "lust", as others would call it.  The phenomenon is the same, but see how much of a difference the viewpoint makes.

It's not my position to insist whether or not "gay" is appropriate for Ennis or not.  But I would say that it does matter.
"Labels" do matter very much.  I don't think we can and I don't think we should be free of labels.

Hey, bud. It's good to re-visit old discussion once in a while to see if we can achieve a new level of understanding.

Love is indeed itself a label. And as we agreed in the past, labels are indeed important as means to communicate. However, it is also important to remember, as is said in Taoist philosophy, "the Tao that can be named is not the Tao", or as Immanuel Kant put it, "the noumenon is not the same as the phenomenon". As long as we remember that the label is not the same as the thing, then we will continue to search for the thing, not thinking self-righteously that we have THE answer. This last point is what I mean when I say that we need to be free of labels, to be free of our own prejudices that arise from labels, like stereotypes, caricatures, demonizing the others.

What you said about love, lust, sin etc, is a perfect illustration of the trappings of using labels and mistaking the three different levels:
1. noumenon (the object thing which is independent of the universe, the unknowable essense of the thing),
2. phenomenon (what we perceive the thing through our senses, measurements, interpretations, which depend on our abilities to perceive, the accuracies of our instruments and senses), and
3. labels (the category that we place the phenomenon in our framework of world view). Love, lust, sin, etc, are labels of things greater than those words, or our understanding of them.

Labels are ladened with layers of traps for the unwary. It is why out of the mouths of babes come wisdom sometimes, because the innocence of youth cut through all the intellectual sophistry that trap the smartest who think they know the noumenon, when in fact they have been debating the labels - like how many angels dance on the head of a pin. It is this last use of labels that enslaves, and what I mean when I say that we need to be free of labels.

And to bring me back on topic:

"Ennis is gay" can be understood as
"(label of a person) (label of equivalence or label of membership) (label of category)"

The label of the person is easy enough. Ennis represents the person, and few of us would misunderstand the label for the actual person.

The label "is" requires more explanation to be useful because in English (and most natural languages) the word can be used for either one of these: 1. equivalence, 2. having properties of, or 3. being a member of a group. In this case, Ennis is gay implies the label is used for membership of a group AND has the property of "loving another man, a person of the same gender".

The label "gay" is both easy and difficult because it can have different layers of meaning. The easy meaning is "to love another person of the same gender", but the difficult meaning is associated with connotations that go with it. For example, "another person" in the case of Ennis is Jack AND ONLY JACK. This is different from other gay men. So is Ennis gay, or a special kind of gay? I have agreed in the past that Ennis is gay in that sense, but it means very little without a deeper understanding of the man.

"Ennis is gay" is about as meaningful as "Secretariat is a horse". It is true in some sense, but it takes away all the uniqueness and special qualities that make Secretariat a legend. The same is true to simply say "Ennis is gay", or "Brokeback Mountain is about two gay ranch hands." The statement takes away from the uniqueness of Ennis, and the special greatness of Brokeback Mountain. It is the taking away part that I object, not the part that is true.

I hope that clarifies my labels. 

[tpe]

OT:

Friends, I'll be gone for more than a week (I'm leaving for Helsinki tonight) so please continue this and other wonderful exchanges in this part of the forum.

When I can, I'll try to read and perhaps even post a few responses.  But please continue the discussions and I hope to catch up in a few days.

[Matt Nasty]

hate to see this thread innactive so thought id give it a little nudge! .
so i was thinking for a long time ive beleived Ennis was indeed gay, and the more i think on it the more i beleive it. People may argue Ennis was straight but just fell in love with jack, however my counter arguments to this would be that, my first being; more of a semantical issue whats the meaning of gay, personally i would say being gay simply meant a difference regarding sexual inclination to me it also significant to who you love and how you love them. i mean to say Ennis was straight and simply fell in love with Jack was allt hat happened doesnt add up to me me and my best friend love each other dearly and where open about that pretty sure he doesnt want to sleep with me...i mean if we were to say the semanticle implication of the word 'gay' was purely from a sexual stand point then is that to say ennis became gay? similarly if we look at it as the way in which love effects us we hit the same result Ennis became gay for jack or at least bi...so in essece even from arguing this point the answer points to Ennis wasnt straight regardless of how it came about. however IMO secualityisnt something that happens its something thats born into us.
my second point would be from a psychological asspect, lets look at Ennis relationships with women, yes ennis had sexual relationships with at least one woman possibly cassie aswell...however lets look at his past, young Ennis taken to the irrigation ditch to see earl who was murdered for being gay, a trauma of that level is bound to leave deep psychological scars and it is all but proven that in many cases of severe homophobia it comes from the repression of ones own sexual identity and a trauma large as the one of Ennis seing Earl could easily plant the seeds of this repression to the point Ennis was even in a state of self denial.

ill leave it there for now before i start to ramble haha.

[JT]

Sometimes, I think we're dissecting this simple question a bit too deeply.  "Was Ennis gay?" to me simply means "Does Ennis like men?"  Well, Jack is a man so the answer is "yes".  Does he like every man?  No.  Does every gay man love every man?  I doubt it.  It is just one of many important aspects that make Ennis who he is.  Now we all know we're more than just one thing.  For example, I'm more than just an Asian.  I'm more than just gay.  I'm more than just a man.  I'm all that and much more.

Now, on labeling.  If a label is used to identify an individual as part of a group, then I'm fine with it.  I'll carry it proudly on my shoulder.  Only when a label is used for discrimination or a slur, or to diminish someone, then I'm against it.  Labels are a necessary part of life and always will be.  They are nothing more than for identifying something.  Just about everything you see has a label, but most of the time, the object is more than just the label. 

My two crude, simple minded cents.

[chameau]

Well thanks for sharing your two crude, and so called, simple minded cents Trent, you make a lot of sense.

[jackster]

Hi guys, thanks for waking this up, I’ll jump in. To quote one of our famous Usonian Presidents (go ahead, Google it) “it all depends on what the meaning of is, is”. Or, it all depends on what your meaning of GAY, is. This is not a little question; for some the word itself has a significant and highly important meaning – especially for those of, or in, the gay community.

Not to belabor the point, but – to me there can be no doubt Ennis was homosexual, by definition. He had sex, repeatedly, with a man, and even admitted fantasizing about having sex with a man. “I wrung it out a hundred times thinkin’ about you”. I feel this shows he not only liked it, he knew he liked it, and wanted Jack to know he liked it.

But “gay”?, hmmm. Having lived in San Francisco in the late 1970s, when the word “gay” was directly and specifically meant to mean not only homosexual - but also, proud, liberated, out, and unashamedly queer, GAY was used to reflect a view, a new view, of the liberated homosexual community. Ennis was IMHO in no way “gay”. He exhibited none of those traits. Ennis Delmar in the Gay Pride parade? Huh?

[tpe]

Very interesting points, Matt Nasty, JT, and Jackster.  In your own different way of looking at things, you are correct.  It depends on what the term "gay" really means to you -- perhaps personally.

I should note that the origins of the term "gay" is rooted in the early 20th century, and was used as an alternative to "homosexual", simply because homosexuals disliked the latter's clinical/medical associations as a psychological disorder.

It was only in the 1960s when the term gay was directly associated with "liberation", as when African-Americans gave a new meaning to the term "black" -- along the lines of the civil rights movement.

 

[JT]

I think the term "gay" in this question is simply "is he a homosexual?"  We're talking about a Brokeback Mountain character here, not some colorful characters from some gay pride literature.  We know Ennis doesn't prance around in a gay parade dressed skimply, not that anything is wrong with that of course.  He doesn't live in a big city like San Fran where being gay is celebrated, not condemned. So to me it was a given what this question meant in this context.  Of course "gay" can mean many things to many people.  It can also mean "happy", but of course we talking out of context here.  Is Ennis happy?  Not most of the time.  So, yes, it really depends on what you mean by the word "gay".  I believe in Ennis' case, it simply pertains to his sexual preference not the "gay" culture.

[tpe]

Let me reiterate that for much of the 20th century, it was the term "homosexual" that was the loaded/dirty word, since it was the term used in clinical psychology for a mental/psychological  disorder.  The term "gay" was used as an alternative -- as a term not implying anything wrong with same-sex love.  In essence, they are historically equivalent.

Nowadays, the term "gay" has been given additional layers of meaning.  And since homosexuality is no longer considered a disorder by the medical community, then the term "homosexual" has now become more acceptable and less loaded with derogatory meanings.

I remember old textbooks that listed (an illustrated!) homosexuality as an aberration...

[manhattangirl]

This strictly my opinion guys, so please bear with me.  The question should be was Ennis queer,  Ennis had no idea of what gay was.  that phrase just wasn't in his head.  We have to look at thought his POV. 

I'm in the camp that think he was, and he knew he was.  His rage came from that fact his unwillingness to confront or be his true self, he either couldn't deal i with it , ignored it, hid it, or thought there was no problem at all.  he dealt with his frustrations in random jobs not staying long enough to get a foot hold on anything.  his inability to control his anger,  drinking alone,  eating alone, being alone.   His attempts to have relationships, that proved to be unfulfilled.  I think from childhood he felt he was different,  he somehow put up caution signs on his emotions, stuffing them down,  avoiding them, but showing rage when he is faced with something that threaten his stoic persona.   When he had to leave Jack that first summer, unwilling to deal that fact,  started to rage at Jack and hit him,   being confronted by Alma, again he raged.   

it wasn't his need for man on man sex that tortured Ennis, he wanted it, needed it, loved it,  it was the profound self hatred he had in a world that would kill him for being who he was.  Maybe Jack suffered from the same thing,  for twenty years he sought some kind of validation from Ennis,  his going off to Mexico for paid sex,  his supposed relationship with Randall,  being a combines salesman, not only being the only combine salesman, but being the best,  we see his constant search for validation where he could find it.

How must it feel to live in a world that doesn't accept,  refused to accept who and what you are,  on the sole basis of who you chose to love, and most importantly who you are.  How much rage, self hatred can build in someone. 

When Ennis said to Jack:  "It's because of you Jack, I'm like this.", to me is saying, "how can i love you when i can't love myself", cutting off his true self again. 

They love each other so much,  but didn't love themselves enough to find the joy in that love, in a world that wouldn't let them, and would destroy them for it.

Just my two cents, thanks.

[lancecowboy]

Interesting discussion here. I thought I had said all I wanted to say on the subject, but some of you raised interesting points.

Not only are we over the argument over semantic definition of the word gay, but we are indeed rising beyond the question itself, metaphysically questioning the question, if that makes any sense.

Was Ennis gay? Was Ennis homosexual? Was Ennis queer?

Let's examine what we know for sure, from the movie and the short story:

Ennis was in love with Jack.
Ennis wring it out hundreds of time thinking of Jack, and no other guy.

JT made a good point that not every gay men love more than one man. Jackster and manhattengirl also made a good point that the definition of gay and queer carries connotations.

Does Ennis fit their additional meaning?

The issue here, I think, is that we are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, and a fuzzy one at that. The meaning of the word, indeed, the question itself, is fuzzy with fringe edges that simply has nothing to do with Ennis Del Mar the character.

I think JT and manhattangirl came closest to ironing out the fuzzy edges, when they say:

[...]
If a label is used to identify an individual as part of a group, then I'm fine with it.  I'll carry it proudly on my shoulder.  Only when a label is used for discrimination or a slur, or to diminish someone, then I'm against it.  Labels are a necessary part of life and always will be.  They are nothing more than for identifying something.  Just about everything you see has a label, but most of the time, the object is more than just the label. 
[...]

This strictly my opinion guys, so please bear with me.  The question should be was Ennis queer,  Ennis had no idea of what gay was.  that phrase just wasn't in his head.  We have to look at thought his POV. 

I'm in the camp that think he was, and he knew he was.  His rage came from that fact his unwillingness to confront or be his true self, he either couldn't deal i with it , ignored it, hid it, or thought there was no problem at all.  he dealt with his frustrations in random jobs not staying long enough to get a foot hold on anything.  his inability to control his anger,  drinking alone,  eating alone, being alone.   His attempts to have relationships, that proved to be unfulfilled.  I think from childhood he felt he was different,  he somehow put up caution signs on his emotions, stuffing them down,  avoiding them, but showing rage when he is faced with something that threaten his stoic persona.   When he had to leave Jack that first summer, unwilling to deal that fact,  started to rage at Jack and hit him,   being confronted by Alma, again he raged.   

it wasn't his need for man on man sex that tortured Ennis, he wanted it, needed it, loved it,  it was the profound self hatred he had in a world that would kill him for being who he was.  Maybe Jack suffered from the same thing,  for twenty years he sought some kind of validation from Ennis,  his going off to Mexico for paid sex,  his supposed relationship with Randall,  being a combines salesman, not only being the only combine salesman, but being the best,  we see his constant search for validation where he could find it.

How must it feel to live in a world that doesn't accept,  refused to accept who and what you are,  on the sole basis of who you chose to love, and most importantly who you are.  How much rage, self hatred can build in someone. 

When Ennis said to Jack:  "It's because of you Jack, I'm like this.", to me is saying, "how can i love you when i can't love myself", cutting off his true self again. 

They love each other so much,  but didn't love themselves enough to find the joy in that love, in a world that wouldn't let them, and would destroy them for it.

Just my two cents, thanks.

In addition, here are my two cents worth: for Ennis and all those gay men who love only one, would they be gay if they never met their true love? Would they be life-long bachelors like Sherlock Holmes, or devoted but dispassionate husbands? Would they come out years later in old age?

Like I said, labels are such a limited tool when it comes to ideas that are beyond words.

Ennis, gay or not, queer or not, was more than a label; that's what makes him real, not a caricature of a stereotype. Heath gave Ennis the unique realism, the fuzzy "could have been anyone" character that transcends labeling. The love that can be labeled is not the true love. The love that is true, cares not the labels of the world.

[tpe]

...How must it feel to live in a world that doesn't accept,  refused to accept who and what you are,  on the sole basis of who you chose to love, and most importantly who you are.  How much rage, self hatred can build in someone... 

It does funny things to you.   And self-loathing is certainly one of these things that are the most serious/twisted.  To base one's self-worth of the arbitrary judgements of others is a trap that we can all identify with.  That is why we empathize with Ennis -- willingly/consciously or not.

[vedrana]

I don't think that it was Jack's sexuality that made him a person who needed a validation.

He was doing comparatively well, being a gay person! The reason why he needed the validation was his father, who was never ever satisfied with him.... that's the main reason why he never felt accepted and why he was able to do anything to be accepted. OK, he also entered the wealthy world of Newsomes who didn't accept him too, and Ennis also never accepted him in the way he wanted to.... so he was doomed to be refused by everyone despite being so benevolent and caring person. But going to the beginning - it was his father who was the root of the problem. IMO, of course...

Oh, and yes! i don't think that he hated himself in the way Ennis did. He was willing to embrace things as they were.

[lancecowboy]

I don't think that it was Jack's sexuality that made him a person who needed a validation.

He was doing comparatively well, being a gay person! The reason why he needed the validation was his father, who was never ever satisfied with him.... that's the main reason why he never felt accepted and why he was able to do anything to be accepted. OK, he also entered the wealthy world of Newsomes who didn't accept him too, and Ennis also never accepted him in the way he wanted to.... so he was doomed to be refused by everyone despite being so benevolent and caring person. But going to the beginning - it was his father who was the root of the problem. IMO, of course...

Oh, and yes! i don't think that he hated himself in the way Ennis did. He was willing to embrace things as they were.

I am not sure I agree with the verdict that Jack needs validation.

On the one hand, I agree with you that Jack's old man made Jack sensitive to male acceptance. It's why Ennis is so important to him. Ennis accepts him without qualification. The only problem is that Ennis cannot be with him all the time.

Jack's Ma accepted Jack and loved Jack unconditionally and I believe it is this love that made Jack the way he is, not the old man's rejection, or Newsome's, or the other cowboys'. Jack has a good sense of himself, and is willing to fight for what he wants. The rejection merely makes him want Ennis all the more. The scene at the child birth was telling. Immediately after old man Newsome cut down rodeo, throwing the keys at them, and Jack dropping them (unlike Ennis who caught the watch that Aquiere threw at him, not worth the bother to get up for him), Jack sent the postcard, thinking of Ennis and the magical moments on Brokeback Mountain, when they respected each other, and found companionship where none was expected.

The rejection pushed Jack, not pulled him.

The unconditional acceptance in SNIT is what draws Jack to Ennis, and to Bobby when the boy didn't know better. Once Bobby learned the snobbish way of the old man Newsome, once Ennis made clear that his acceptance out of bed had a leash attached, Jack was miserable.

To get back to topic, I suppose the need for male validation is what made Ennis and Jack desire and appreciate male companionship, but I doubt that made them gay.

[manhattangirl]

I am not sure I agree with the verdict that Jack needs validation.

On the one hand, I agree with you that Jack's old man made Jack sensitive to male acceptance. It's why Ennis is so important to him. Ennis accepts him without qualification. The only problem is that Ennis cannot be with him all the time.

Jack's Ma accepted Jack and loved Jack unconditionally and I believe it is this love that made Jack the way he is, not the old man's rejection, or Newsome's, or the other cowboys'. Jack has a good sense of himself, and is willing to fight for what he wants. The rejection merely makes him want Ennis all the more. The scene at the child birth was telling. Immediately after old man Newsome cut down rodeo, throwing the keys at them, and Jack dropping them (unlike Ennis who caught the watch that Aquiere threw at him, not worth the bother to get up for him), Jack sent the postcard, thinking of Ennis and the magical moments on Brokeback Mountain, when they respected each other, and found companionship where none was expected.

The rejection pushed Jack, not pulled him.

The unconditional acceptance in SNIT is what draws Jack to Ennis, and to Bobby when the boy didn't know better. Once Bobby learned the snobbish way of the old man Newsome, once Ennis made clear that his acceptance out of bed had a leash attached, Jack was miserable.

To get back to topic, I suppose the need for male validation is what made Ennis and Jack desire and appreciate male companionship, but I doubt that made them gay.

Very good point,  Jack's mother saw that the old man was withdrawn from his son, made up the difference,  maybe by being overprotective of him,  compensating for the loss of his father affection,  showing love and tenderness,  that Jack showed Ennis the SNIT.  It was at that moment finally each man true self was shown. 

Short lived though it was the SNIT is what takes hold of them,  and what they search for years later. It doesn't matter  how well Jack did,  or how much Ennis struggled,  they were living a life they presented to the world, the public validation of "straight" in order to survive,  and killing off their true self.  Finally Jack's unwillingness to go on with the denial of who he was and what he wanted and Ennis unwillingness even to acknowledge to himself he had deep feelings for Jack, that it caused him to breakdown, made that so clear in The Final Confrontation.  Each man living two lives, their "Brokeback life",  and their "straight life", and yearning for the "sweet life" was too hard to bear.    IMO

[lancecowboy]

Very good point,  Jack's mother saw that the old man was withdrawn from his son, made up the difference,  maybe by being overprotective of him,  compensating for the loss of his father affection,  showing love and tenderness,  that Jack showed Ennis the SNIT.  It was at that moment finally each man true self was shown. 

The brilliance of their love shined in their infrequent couplings under the stars, in SNIT, or horseplay in broad daylight.

Jack's Ma was the nurturing mother to the Old Man's abusive father. The little moments when she showed love to Ennis encapsulated all those years when she gave Jack life, outside of the Old Man's abuse.
 

Short lived though it was the SNIT is what takes hold of them,  and what they search for years later. It doesn't matter  how well Jack did,  or how much Ennis struggled,  they were living a life they presented to the world, the public validation of "straight" in order to survive,  and killing off their true self.  Finally Jack's unwillingness to go on with the denial of who he was and what he wanted and Ennis unwillingness even to acknowledge to himself he had deep feelings for Jack, that it caused him to breakdown, made that so clear in The Final Confrontation.  Each man living two lives, their "Brokeback life",  and their "straight life", and yearning for the "sweet life" was too hard to bear.    IMO

Yes, living the double life finally caught up with them, emotionally for Jack and financially for Ennis.

[manhattangirl]

The brilliance of their love shined in their infrequent couplings under the stars, in SNIT, or horseplay in broad daylight.

Jack's Ma was the nurturing mother to the Old Man's abusive father. The little moments when she showed love to Ennis encapsulated all those years when she gave Jack life, outside of the Old Man's abuse.
 
Yes, living the double life finally caught up with them, emotionally for Jack and financially for Ennis.

Yes,  living this split life did affected Ennis deeply,   financially and emotionally,   the way he saw himself,  he was what his father hated,  killed for,  and this was who he was.  He kept Jack at a distance, but not too far away, only for times he felt he could give in to be with him, putting limits to his time with him.   I think his biggest fear was succumbing to this need,  and not be able to go back to his other life, that carefully made up persona he showed other people, because if he stay with Jack one day,  one week longer,  the flood gates would  open and his true self would pour out, and he could never go back to that person he showed the rest of the world.  IMO.

[tpe]

At the risk of going too far out of topic, I would suggest that in the movie, we get very little sense of how much Jack reached out to his father (or even mother).  But the comment about his father never once going out of his way to see him ride does suggest a hunger for approval.

In any case, perhaps this discussion would be best continued in the corresponding thread for Jack...

[lancecowboy]

Yes,  living this split life did affected Ennis deeply,   financially and emotionally,   the way he saw himself,  he was what his father hated,  killed for,  and this was who he was.  He kept Jack at a distance, but not too far away, only for times he felt he could give in to be with him, putting limits to his time with him.   I think his biggest fear was succumbing to this need,  and not be able to go back to his other life, that carefully made up persona he showed other people, because if he stay with Jack one day,  one week longer,  the flood gates would  open and his true self would pour out, and he could never go back to that person he showed the rest of the world.  IMO.

Good point manhattangirl. Ennis was hanging on to the last shred of his straight persona. He wasn't able to jump into the water that was his love for Jack.

All those years of homophobia, being told the waters had sharks and monsters and terrible things. That's the evil of bigotry, telling lies that turn a beautiful love into something dark and dirty.

[tpe]

Good point manhattangirl. Ennis was hanging on to the last shred of his straight persona. He wasn't able to jump into the water that was his love for Jack.

All those years of homophobia, being told the waters had sharks and monsters and terrible things. That's the evil of bigotry, telling lies that turn a beautiful love into something dark and dirty.

The proverbial hic sunt dracones of ignorance.

[manhattangirl]

The proverbial hic sunt dracones of ignorance.

and of self hate and fear.  So unwilling to leave the shore.

[lancecowboy]

The proverbial hic sunt dracones of ignorance.

Ignorance? I think Ennis was more confused. It's why Cassie at the diner helped him so much, to finally understand, to see that what he and Jack had was love.

and of self hate and fear.  So unwilling to leave the shore.

Self-hate? Fear? Yup. It's what seeing his daddy did to Rich at the tender age of nine. Some memories never leave us, especially emotional, misunderstood childhood memories. It's why sexual predators of children should be gravely punished. The scars they leave are deep.

[tpe]

Ignorance? I think Ennis was more confused. It's why Cassie at the diner helped him so much, to finally understand, to see that what he and Jack had was love.

"Ignorance" here should be taken in the antique term: of not knowing any better.  It invariably leads to confusion.  As when the map makers postulate the existence of monsters where nobody has ever tread.

[lancecowboy]

"Ignorance" here should be taken in the antique term: of not knowing any better.  It invariably leads to confusion.  As when the map makers postulate the existence of monsters where nobody has ever tread.

Ah....the benefits of a classical education, or Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Here_be_dragons

The only known use of this phrase is in the Latin form "HIC SVNT DRACONES" (i.e. hic sunt dracones) on the Lenox Globe[1] (ca. 1503-07). The term appeared on the east coast of Asia. Earlier maps contain a variety of references to mythical and real creatures, but the Lenox Globe is the only known surviving map to bear this phrase. The classical phrase utilized by ancient Roman and Medieval cartographers used to be HIC SVNT LEONES (literally, Here are lions) when denoting unknown territories on maps.

This thing with no reins ... sure scares the heck out of Ennis.

[tpe]

Thanks lance for citing the wikipedia explanation. 

It was unknown territiry to him, and he was certainly scared and confused.

[lancecowboy]

Thanks lance for citing the wikipedia explanation. 

It was unknown territiry to him, and he was certainly scared and confused.

That was the genius of Heath, who understood what gay men felt like facing what they feared, yet wanted. No actor has performed as well, in telling the story of a homophobic gay man, as Heath did.

[tpe]

That was the genius of Heath, who understood what gay men felt like facing what they feared, yet wanted. No actor has performed as well, in telling the story of a homophobic gay man, as Heath did.

And I think his sense of internal conflict goes beyond sexuality.  There is something universal about it that touches us and reminds us of how hard it is to be human.