Topic: The Shirts, the meaining

[pattyjean]

    Agreed!  Shattered me.

    Glad you found the right pasture to graze in.  Someone get patty some wiskey from the stream over yonder.

Yea!  Hand over the whiskey--I'm ready!  AND, about the horse and rider:  I am 99.9% certain that they are made of wood--and Ang set the stage by showing the very beginning of the carving on that rainy day when Ennis was gazing up to where Jack and the sheep were located.  Don't get me started--I totally agree with lancecowboy!

[babytammy7]

I agree with you about the shirts, Tammy, but the horse and rider in Lightning Flat was definitely made of wood, but you can see that it has gained a shine on it because of age, and handling. Ang Lee has been careful with every detail, so I can't imagine him not taking note of something like that, a bright clean piece of wood after twenty years, especially something that Jack would handle often, in memory of that summer of '63.

The reason why I think they are the same, is that the size and shape of the horse is almost identical to the one that Ennis was carving. It is the kind of detail that Ang Lee would put into the movie, just like the lighter. I don't know for certain, but I would be surprised that these were not deliberate signatures of their love.

Just my opinion.

Oh I don't know Andrew, I mean, when you carve a piece of wood, or if you are working in a block of marble you have to carve the whole thing at once..I mean, Ennis should carve the horse and the rider from the same piece of wood, and we only see the horse....and there is not enough wood left in that piece to carve the rider....

Then, when Ennis goes to Jack's room and takes the horse he seems not to be surprised like he was when he saw the shirts....he's not shocked, and he even doesn't seem to recognize the figure....I mean, when he found the shirts he was stunned to learn that Jack kept them for 20 years, but he was not stunned when he saw the horse, and it's supposed to be there those same 20 years.....But Ennis only looks sad and moved when he saw that Jack's little toy....And also I can't believe that Jack had not a toy when he was a child, a cowboy and his horse.

About the lighter, well, I don't think that Ennis kept it in first place. They were in BBM for almost two months and Jack sure needed his lighter there (and of course Ennis too) so I don't think that Jack didn't ask for his lighter back that day in the bar. He sure light another cigarette after the one they were smoking with the beers.

For some reason I don't see Ennis giving Jack that horse and taking his lighter. That was not Ennis. Ennis did things for Jack when he was sure Jack was not gonna know how he was feeling. Ennis didn't want to be vulnerable...Ennis spent 20 years fighting with what he was feeling and trying to not show much of that, not even to Jack, so giving Jack a horse would have been show so much, and so soon too!! Maybe after the reunion those kind of things were possible but I don't think he was able to do that as soon as BBM was.

Just MHO. Thank you.

[lancecowboy]

Oh I don't know Andrew, I mean, when you carve a piece of wood, or if you are working in a block of marble you have to carve the whole thing at once..I mean, Ennis should carve the horse and the rider from the same piece of wood, and we only see the horse....and there is not enough wood left in that piece to carve the rider....

No worries, Tammy. I don't know for sure. Only Ang Lee would know what he intended when he placed the cowboy and rider on the desk, for Ennis to find as he walked into Jack's room.

However, the rider was carved separated from the horse because that's what woodcarvers do. Wooden model ships, for example, are always made with separate, independent pieces that fit together. I can't imagine Ennis carving the two together...one, it'd much harder to do, and two, it'd be much more fragile, with the rider breaking off easily, and three, it's meant for spending those lonely hours when Jack was up there on the mountain, and I bet he had a lot of fun, carving the cowboy.

Then, when Ennis goes to Jack's room and takes the horse he seems not to be surprised like he was when he saw the shirts....he's not shocked, and he even doesn't seem to recognize the figure....I mean, when he found the shirts he was stunned to learn that Jack kept them for 20 years, but he was not stunned when he saw the horse, and it's supposed to be there those same 20 years.....But Ennis only looks sad and moved when he saw that Jack's little toy....And also I can't believe that Jack had not a toy when he was a child, a cowboy and his horse.

I think I saw a flicker of recognition on Ennis' face when he walked into the room, and the first thing he did was to pick up the horse and rider, as if he was fondling it, remembering the moment when he gave it to Jack. Then the camera swung round for a close up and I could see a drop of tear beginning to fall. He wouldn't get that emotional over some little toy. Just my opinion.

About the lighter, well, I don't think that Ennis kept it in first place. They were in BBM for almost two months and Jack sure needed his lighter there (and of course Ennis too) so I don't think that Jack didn't ask for his lighter back that day in the bar. He sure light another cigarette after the one they were smoking with the beers.

For some reason I don't see Ennis giving Jack that horse and taking his lighter. That was not Ennis. Ennis did things for Jack when he was sure Jack was not gonna know how he was feeling. Ennis didn't want to be vulnerable...Ennis spent 20 years fighting with what he was feeling and trying to not show much of that, not even to Jack, so giving Jack a horse would have been show so much, and so soon too!! Maybe after the reunion those kind of things were possible but I don't think he was able to do that as soon as BBM was.

Just MHO. Thank you.

You are always welcome, amiga,  and gracias for your discussion. It helps me to focus on what I haven't paid attention to much, before.

You may be right that the lighter may not be the same one as Jack's at the bar. The old probably broke long ago. But I still think Ennis probably showed Jack the cowboy and horse, perhaps not meaning to give it to Jack as a gift. After all, guys, cowboys at any rate, don't do sentimental stuff like giving little gifts. Only girls do that.  [no offense] And Jack would probably have said that "Gee, Ennis, you got a talent for that sort of thing. Can I keep it? Maybe it will be worth a lot of money one day." That would be acceptable buddy talk. And Ennis would be happy to oblige. Perhaps even jokingly reply with, "Sure, Jack, tell you what, I will trade you this hunk of wood for you lighter."

And the bond of friendship is cemented with concrete symbols.

Just my active imagination wishing that it were so.

[pattyjean]

OK lancebowboy et al:  Those old lighters last FOREVER--and Ennis (wearing his VERY BEST shirt) was clicking it for no reason just as Jack did in that first bar scene.  AND, the SEPARATE horse and rider continued to bring tears to Ennis' eyes when he lovingly picked it up from Jack's desk.  Ang ain't no fool:  He undoubtedly planted those mementos in the movie just to get us future Brokies to totally lose our sanity!  tammy, tpe, rimasworld, ranchand, atalley--your feelings?

[babytammy7]

Agree, Ang was a genius, and because of that he created an amazing setting and atmosphere full of little details to show us the life of the characters, and that’s what he did with Jack’s room for example. I think Ang was only showing us a little piece of Jack’s childhood, because his mother kept the room like it was when he was a child.
And Ennis needed a lighter if was gonna smoke, right? So Ang was only creating a setting, like he did with all the scenes.

If every little thing was a reminder of their relationship or something they gave each other we’ll have to talk about the pillows in Ennis trailer like I did in another thread, and about the gloves or what about the brand of the whiskey or the cans in Ennis trailer? If everything was something from each other, then the riffle in Jack’s room, the one we can see, was the rifle Ennis used to shot the elk!! And you know that makes no sense!!

If everything was so very obvious about how much they thought about each other, well then there had not been the punch, and with the punch I mean the shirts. That scene was created to punch Ennis and punch us, to show us that it was real love and show us how Jack kept hoping and dreaming. And it was about Jack, because like I said to Andrew, I think it was not an Ennis thing to keep something from Jack which showed to Jack and to himself his vulnerabilities, his love. Ennis was not like that. Not so open and romantic. And I think Diana or Ang had used something more powerful to show us Ennis love than a lighter. Ang used the lighter to show us how nervous Ennis was, opening and closing it, opening and closing it!! Ennis really wanted Jack there, he had not forgotten him.

As beautiful as it can be I think it’s only our imagination and wish. I mean, I wish that pillow in Ennis bed was for Jack, but Ang, Heath, Jake and Diana never said a word about it. They only talked about what was important and REAL and it was the shirts. They never talked about Jack keeping Ennis horse or Ennis keeping Jack’s lighter. Diana tried to be faithful to Annie’s SS, and Ang to Diana’s script and there’s nothing there saying that those things we are talking about here were real and true.

If Jack had another souvenir from their love in BBM, what would be the point with the shirts? I mean, the shirts are supposed to be a punch, to be a surprise, to be the only thing about Ennis and him Jack kept during 20 years. I’m not the one saying this, it’s was what Diana said.
We can say that Jack’s Ma offered Ennis cherry cake because Jack told her that it was his favourite, but we have not proud of this!! We don’t know if Ennis loved that cake or if Jack said that to her Ma. It’s only what we want to imagine!! There’s nothing in the script or in the SS to believe that!! And that’s the only guide we have, that and Heath, Jake, Ang and Diana’s words.

The same with the horse and the lighter, and the pillows for me. It doesn’t matter what we believe in, we have no proofs, it’s only our wish. JMHO. Thanks.

We are getting off topic, so sorry. 

[lancecowboy]

First of all, Tammy, amiga, you know I am okay with different opinions from my own.

As I said in the preamble earlier, I have no proof, none whatever ever, not from interviews, not from anything, just my own interpretation of the most powerful movie in my life. Only Ang Lee and the people close to him would know for sure what was intended.

Having said that, I think there can be consistent deductions that would make sense, and make the movie even more powerful and meaningful for the individual. It has nothing to do with right or wrong...it has to do with meaning. Regardless of what anyone else think, or even what Ang Lee himself say, I can still admire the convergences of so many disparate elements that gives this movie depth and soul.

I have no problem if you think that I am a little crazy to believe the horse and rider was carved by Ennis. I have no problem if you think the lighter was not a momento that Jack gave to Ennis. I believe they were, and they give deeper meaning to the movie for me.

I agree with you that there are other little bits of detail that can be interpreted in ways that are not supportable, like the rifle, like the cherry cake. I don't know about the pillow because I don't remember the short story very much. I will have to check on that...I never noticed those pillows, because tears usually obscure the detail by that scene.

I have changed my mind about the lighter. I think it was the same lighter that Jack used in the bar, that they shared on Brokeback Mountain that summer. Ennis wore the same jacket for twenty years. He is one of these people who takes care of his belongings, and as PattyJean pointed out, these lighters, properly cared for, can last forever. With Ennis' faithful devotion, I have no doubt that lighter was his most treasured possession. So only four years after that summer of '63, Ennis was most certainly flicking his wick with Jack's lighter.

Finally, I believe the two shirts are still as powerful a symbol as ever, because they are the last moment the two were together...the last embrace, the intimacy of that moment transcends all else. Most of all, it was the moment after the punch. Ennis for four years, regretted that punch thrown in anger and frustration. He pretty much said it in the motel. Thought Jack was sore from that punch. The two shirts proved to him, in that moment, in a flash, that Jack loved him even then, from the beginning. The symbolism of one shirt in the other, of Jack's shirt embracing his own shirt, was further emphasized by Heath's genius decision to change them around in the last scene. It shows unequivocally that Ennis understood Jack's meaning, putting Jack's shirt inside his own. Ennis responded..."Jack, I swear."

The little gifts were only building up to show the bond, like the shared moments by the fire, shooting the elk, chopping wood, drawing water...etc. The shared moments, momentos that strengthen their bonds, do not weaken it. More strands in the rope, make it stronger. The additional strands does not diminish the strength of the medallion hanging on the end, and that to me, would be the two shirts, the ultimate symbol of Jack's deep abiding love for Ennis, from the beginning to the end.

JMHO

[pattyjean]

Agree, Ang was a genius, and because of that he created an amazing setting and atmosphere full of little details to show us the life of the characters, and that’s what he did with Jack’s room for example. I think Ang was only showing us a little piece of Jack’s childhood, because his mother kept the room like it was when he was a child.
And Ennis needed a lighter if was gonna smoke, right? So Ang was only creating a setting, like he did with all the scenes.

If every little thing was a reminder of their relationship or something they gave each other we’ll have to talk about the pillows in Ennis trailer like I did in another thread, and about the gloves or what about the brand of the whiskey or the cans in Ennis trailer? If everything was something from each other, then the riffle in Jack’s room, the one we can see, was the rifle Ennis used to shot the elk!! And you know that makes no sense!!

If everything was so very obvious about how much they thought about each other, well then there had not been the punch, and with the punch I mean the shirts. That scene was created to punch Ennis and punch us, to show us that it was real love and show us how Jack kept hoping and dreaming. And it was about Jack, because like I said to Andrew, I think it was not an Ennis thing to keep something from Jack which showed to Jack and to himself his vulnerabilities, his love. Ennis was not like that. Not so open and romantic. And I think Diana or Ang had used something more powerful to show us Ennis love than a lighter. Ang used the lighter to show us how nervous Ennis was, opening and closing it, opening and closing it!! Ennis really wanted Jack there, he had not forgotten him.

As beautiful as it can be I think it’s only our imagination and wish. I mean, I wish that pillow in Ennis bed was for Jack, but Ang, Heath, Jake and Diana never said a word about it. They only talked about what was important and REAL and it was the shirts. They never talked about Jack keeping Ennis horse or Ennis keeping Jack’s lighter. Diana tried to be faithful to Annie’s SS, and Ang to Diana’s script and there’s nothing there saying that those things we are talking about here were real and true.

If Jack had another souvenir from their love in BBM, what would be the point with the shirts? I mean, the shirts are supposed to be a punch, to be a surprise, to be the only thing about Ennis and him Jack kept during 20 years. I’m not the one saying this, it’s was what Diana said.
We can say that Jack’s Ma offered Ennis cherry cake because Jack told her that it was his favourite, but we have not proud of this!! We don’t know if Ennis loved that cake or if Jack said that to her Ma. It’s only what we want to imagine!! There’s nothing in the script or in the SS to believe that!! And that’s the only guide we have, that and Heath, Jake, Ang and Diana’s words.

The same with the horse and the lighter, and the pillows for me. It doesn’t matter what we believe in, we have no proofs, it’s only our wish. JMHO. Thanks.

We are getting off topic, so sorry. 

OK, Baby Tammy:  I totally agree with you about what all of us surmise, or don't surmise--there is no proof!  Loved the way Ennis was pouting on the hillside about bringing the sheep down early--not because of a lost month's pay, but because of a lost month with JACK!  When he tucked the back of his SHIRT in, just before the lasso incident, he becomes really angry with Jack--because of what Jack reeled him into in FNIT.  Ennis' nosebleed caused him to react in the only way he could--by punching Jack really hard!  He could not bear the thought of loving this MAN with all his heart--and then potentially being separated from him--for all eternity! 

[tpe]

Rimasworld:  You are right on target about the brown shirt and the one Jake was washing.  After FNIT, Ennis rode off wearing the same brown shirt--and apparently skipping breakfast.  Evidently he changed into the clean shirt the next evening before SNIT.  I'm certain that Ang Lee put lots of thought into this, as he is microscopic in his attention to details.  (Ang actually trained that tiny insect to land twice on Jack's black hat during the "I ain't queer" discussion!  LOL)

I also suspect that Ennis would have changed shirts --  to look his best. 

[tpe]

OT: actually, I do find the side discussion about the wooden horse quite interesting -- perhaps we can continue the discussion in the appropriate thread.  I know that there is one or two thread devoted to the "details" in the movies, and perhaps there is even one dedicated to this exact topic (I will have to check!)

[atalley]

I'm not sure where it was, but I think I was the first one to ask if the horse was the same one that Ennis carved.  At the time I first saw the movie there was no question in my mind that the answer was yes.  The more I  think about it, though, I think it was more of a symbol of their love for the rodeo.  The most important remembrance was the shirts...that's the whole reason for him to be in Jack's room.  To see that Jack loved him from day 1 on the Mt. and never wavered in 20 yrs.  :\'( 

[babytammy7]

I totally agree with you Atalley. 

Yeah, Thomas, we are off topic....Maybe we should talk about the shirts here an about that other things in that other thread you talk about.. “Scenes of observation”, right?

Andrew that's the thread where I talked about the pillows in Ennis trailer. There’s not need for you to watch that scene again because I know it makes you cry, friend. There’s a pic I posted there, so you could see it. Let me know what you think, baby.

http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=12017.150

[tpe]

Thanks atalley and Tammy!  And thanks also, Tammy, for the link.  IT was a beautiful observation on your part!

BBM is rich is the symbolism that resonates from one object to another.  This is certainly true with the shirts.   WE think of them as an indivisible pair.  We cannot think of understanding one without the other.

 

[myprivatejack]

Thanks atalley and Tammy!  And thanks also, Tammy, for the link.  IT was a beautiful observation on your part!

BBM is rich is the symbolism that resonates from one object to another.  This is certainly true with the shirts.   WE think of them as an indivisible pair.  We cannot think of understanding one without the other.
 

Yes,we can't.And we can't because the shirts are Ennis and Jack themselves and the tangible proof that "this thing"-as Ennis called it for not having to say "love"-was something deeper even than they thought.

[pattyjean]

Ooh ooh Francis!  I just noticed something--in the scene where Ennis is shirtless and about to "warsh everything (he) can reach"!  In the background on a pile of wood, is Ennis' coat, shirt, and what looks like a
clean pair of jeans!  I had previously been concerned about Ennis putting the dirty jeans back on!  In Annie's SS, Ennis wore neither "drawers" nor socks:  Ang did, however, supply him with boot socks...lol.

[lancecowboy]

Ooh ooh Francis!  I just noticed something--in the scene where Ennis is shirtless and about to "warsh everything (he) can reach"!  In the background on a pile of wood, is Ennis' coat, shirt, and what looks like a
clean pair of jeans!  I had previously been concerned about Ennis putting the dirty jeans back on!  In Annie's SS, Ennis wore neither "drawers" nor socks:  Ang did, however, supply him with boot socks...lol.

PattyJean, that's awesome. I will have to watch the movie again. I've never noticed all the detail before. Thanks! 

[tpe]

Yes,we can't.And we can't because the shirts are Ennis and Jack themselves and the tangible proof that "this thing"-as Ennis called it for not having to say "love"-was something deeper even than they thought.

Yes, the shirts stand for the two of them more than anything else -- in ways more real than we tend to think of temporal symbols.  And as you said, they are both E & J themselves as well as the love that is stronger than either of them.

[tpe]

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the ss say that Ennis just owned 2 shirts an one pair of jeans?  I don't have the ss with me right now, and I could be wrong in this...

[Matt Nasty]

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the ss say that Ennis just owned 2 shirts an one pair of jeans?  I don't have the ss with me right now, and I could be wrong in this...

hmm i rmemeber something like that but i dont have the ss anymore...

[tpe]

hmm i rmemeber something like that but i dont have the ss anymore...

Well, I have to correct myself.  It is probably not in the ss but in the screenplay -- perhaps as one of the directives, if I am not mistaken. 

[jackster]

Yeah, I think you've hit it here Thomas. A directive from a screenplay explaining the situation. Not really spelled out anywhere in film or the SS that all he owns is in that brown bag, but the implication is clear, he's travelling light, no doubt about it. Of course the beauty of that shirt in the bag at the start (alone) and then in the bag again at the end (entwined with Jack's) is simply beyond words.


Whoops. I just checked the film. He's wearing that checked white shirt in the first scene. So the shirt in the bag must be the other (brownish) one. Well, still works pretty good as Jack's wearing the blue shirt too there at the beginning. So they meet, both both wearing the shirts that end up in the bag at Lightning Flat.

[lancecowboy]

Yeah, I think you've hit it here Thomas. A directive from a screenplay explaining the situation. Not really spelled out anywhere in film or the SS that all he owns is in that brown bag, but the implication is clear, he's travelling light, no doubt about it. Of course the beauty of that shirt in the bag at the start (alone) and then in the bag again at the end (entwined with Jack's) is simply beyond words.


Whoops. I just checked the film. He's wearing that checked white shirt in the first scene. So the shirt in the bag must be the other (brownish) one. Well, still works pretty good as Jack's wearing the blue shirt too there at the beginning. So they meet, both both wearing the shirts that end up in the bag at Lightning Flat.

Thanks, Jackster. This is beautiful. I never noticed before.  The owner of the two shirts was right...he called them the ruby slippers of our generation. Yup. 

[atalley]

I had been looking for a good pic of Ennis caressing the shirts and it took quite awhile.  Before, I had happy pics for my wallpaper of E/J riding horseback.  Anyway, I finally found the one I was looking for.  It is so beautiful, but so sad.  It takes my breath away at how gentle he is with their memories.  I also love, love, love the fact that he smells them to remember Jack's scent.   :\'(

[tpe]

Yeah, I think you've hit it here Thomas. A directive from a screenplay explaining the situation. Not really spelled out anywhere in film or the SS that all he owns is in that brown bag, but the implication is clear, he's travelling light, no doubt about it. Of course the beauty of that shirt in the bag at the start (alone) and then in the bag again at the end (entwined with Jack's) is simply beyond words.


Whoops. I just checked the film. He's wearing that checked white shirt in the first scene. So the shirt in the bag must be the other (brownish) one. Well, still works pretty good as Jack's wearing the blue shirt too there at the beginning. So they meet, both both wearing the shirts that end up in the bag at Lightning Flat.

Somehow, I have a feeling that this was deliberate on the part of the filmmakers...

[tpe]

I had been looking for a good pic of Ennis caressing the shirts and it took quite awhile.  Before, I had happy pics for my wallpaper of E/J riding horseback.  Anyway, I finally found the one I was looking for.  It is so beautiful, but so sad.  It takes my breath away at how gentle he is with their memories.  I also love, love, love the fact that he smells them to remember Jack's scent.   :\'(

The way he buttons the shirt in his closet during the final scene -- what do you think is the symbolism of this action?  Is he thinking that Jack was present with him there and then?

[myprivatejack]

The way he buttons the shirt in his closet during the final scene -- what do you think is the symbolism of this action?  Is he thinking that Jack was present with him there and then?

I suppose that yes,somehow he thinks and feels as if Jack was with him all the time.The shirt is the tangible symbol than joins him to his lover,as well as a memory of the good and happy times they shared.But I don't know what is the exact symbolism of buttoning that shirt; maybe it's only Ennis wanting for everything "looks right",and the clothing was unbuttoned-not right-.Or maybe is a way of protecting Jack by covering his body-symbolically speaking,of course...-when all the buttons are right,as a way of embracing him?.

[atalley]

I've also wondered this myself.  Maybe it was a sign of endearment of sorts, as Jack was not there physically.

[tpe]

I suppose that yes,somehow he thinks and feels as if Jack was with him all the time.The shirt is the tangible symbol than joins him to his lover,as well as a memory of the good and happy times they shared.But I don't know what is the exact symbolism of buttoning that shirt; maybe it's only Ennis wanting for everything "looks right",and the clothing was unbuttoned-not right-.Or maybe is a way of protecting Jack by covering his body-symbolically speaking,of course...-when all the buttons are right,as a way of embracing him?.

Well, the sentence above that I boldfaced is actually what I thought when I saw this scene.  Do you remember your mother buttoning up your shirt this way to protect you from the cold?  It is a caring, protective gesture, IMO.

[tpe]

I've also wondered this myself.  Maybe it was a sign of endearment of sorts, as Jack was not there physically.

I do think is was a sign of endearment and tenderness -- but I think it is a gesture that one would do if the person were physically there, if you get my drift...

[myprivatejack]

I do think is was a sign of endearment and tenderness -- but I think it is a gesture that one would do if the person were physically there, if you get my drift...

Yes,one would...But for Ennis,Jack was there almost physically.And so,this is the kind of things he woud like to do being his lover alive,as a tenderness and protection gesture.As a matter of fact,Ennis spent half his life protecting Jack somehow...

[atalley]

Thomas...yeah, that makes sense.

MPJ...I'm not sure of ways that Ennis protected Jack.  Got some examples?