Author Topic: Was Ennis still in a sixties state of mind? (Read 15744 times)

manhattangirl · « **on:** Jan 16, 2007, 07:07 PM »

Ok, We all understand Ennis's hang up about being with Jack. But, by the time they had their final confrontation, it was the early 80s, didn't he know that the 50s or the 60s were over? Times were a changin'. Why in the heck didn't Jack point that out to him? He whispered its "ok" in the tent that second night, he should have whispered its "ok" to Ennis that final time too.

Or would have it made any difference to him.

Just a thought.

Manhattangirl

LuvJackNasty · « **Reply #1 on:** Jan 16, 2007, 11:34 PM »

IMO his hang up had more to do with what his father had shown him as a young child. That is awful for an adult to see and try to comprehend never mind a young child- he saw first hand what could happen to "boys like him". I think Ennis's fear is too deeply rooted- that's what compounds his tragedy- it happened anyway and he never took the chance- denied both of them that sweet life together in trying to avoid the tire irons.

welshwitch · « **Reply #2 on:** Jan 17, 2007, 02:08 AM »

And given that Ennis. as he admitted himself, never did any travelling, he never saw other places where a life with Jack would have been possible if not easy - he was brought up in a backwater and his mindset remained stuck in the way it had formed - Ennis didn't change in any way. Look at his clothes and the way he lives - he's never moved on, whereas Jack has.

In reality he's less in a sixties frame of mind than stuck where his father put him.

Magdalena · « **Reply #3 on:** Jan 17, 2007, 03:53 AM »

Dont forget there where still a lot of prejudices against homosexuals in the 80ies... there still are, sadly.

tpe · « **Reply #4 on:** Jan 17, 2007, 08:10 AM »

The sixties were certainly a time of change, but many certainly didn't. Still, I would think that had Ennis imbibed a bit more of that decade, things would have been better for him. I suspect he harkens back to an earlier, less tolerant time.

And yes, let us not forget that certain homosexual acts remain criminal in parts of the USA even to this day.

jerasjr · « **Reply #5 on:** Jan 17, 2007, 08:14 AM »

Given that Ennis lived in WY, don't think it surprising if he was in a 60's state of mind, you have to remember that communication was not what it is now - and that gays and lesbians did not start making their move for recognition until then, and that on the coasts. Live in WI and there was not a gay bar in our city until the late 70's, so can imagine that WY lagged even further behind. Recognition did not come easily...and if you think that Matthew Shepherd was killed in WY relatively recently, well... Am just saying that in terms of time and location it does not surprise me at all if Ennis retained that frame of reference.

Magdalena · « **Reply #6 on:** Jan 17, 2007, 09:36 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Jan 17, 2007, 08:10 AM

And yes, let us not forget that certain homosexual acts remain criminal in parts of the USA even to this day.

i knew about the prejudices, but had no idea it was actually criminal still

Let us all pray for equal rights, no matter the gender, sexuality, religion, culture, looks or nationality...

It is time this world understands we are all of the same value.

LuvJackNasty · « **Reply #7 on:** Jan 17, 2007, 12:17 PM »

I know it's O/T but amen to that Magda

tpe · « **Reply #8 on:** Jan 17, 2007, 01:20 PM »

Yes, thanks Magdalena.

Whether or not it was criminal in Wyoming during the 60s would really not matter in thw case of Ennis. Social prejudices and pressures to conform are even stronger than laws. As Jim noted, Matthew Shepherd is a good example of what people face in many parts of the country if they don't conform.

Magdalena · « **Reply #9 on:** Jan 17, 2007, 01:46 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Jan 17, 2007, 01:20 PM

Yes, thanks Magdalena.

Whether or not it was criminal in Wyoming during the 60s would really not matter in thw case of Ennis. Social prejudices and pressures to conform are even stronger than laws. As Jim noted, Matthew Shepherd is a good example of what people face in many parts of the country if they don't conform.

i know, the prejudices of others, but also the prejudices you are brought up to believe in yourself are stronger than any law... That is why i think it is difficult to say he was still in the sixties...

tpe · « **Reply #10 on:** Jan 17, 2007, 02:07 PM »

Quote from: Magdalena on Jan 17, 2007, 01:46 PM

i know, the prejudices of others, but also the prejudices you are brought up to believe in yourself are stronger than any law... That is why i think it is difficult to say he was still in the sixties...

Well said. There is no dearth of people who want to play God.

Magdalena · « **Reply #11 on:** Jan 17, 2007, 02:16 PM »

i always go off topic here, so i think i will have to continue this in pm, if you want to

tpe · « **Reply #12 on:** Jan 17, 2007, 02:23 PM »

It's not really off topic, IMO. The state of mind in question is precisely what you described. It didn't matter if time had moved on into the 70s and 80. For many of the people who surrounded Ennis (and Jack), the state of their minds had stood still (in the 60s? I would say even earlier...) This was what made Ennis hold back, as much as the conservatism of his own state of mind.

Magdalena · « **Reply #13 on:** Jan 17, 2007, 02:40 PM »

sadly i think there are a lot of people that is still stuck in the 60s... some even back in the dark ages

I just dont understand what gives people the right to judge others... Problem for Ennis was probably he was his own worst enemy at times. He judged himself a lot harder than a lot of the people around him would, if they where given a chance.

tpe · « **Reply #14 on:** Jan 17, 2007, 02:52 PM »

Quote from: Magdalena on Jan 17, 2007, 02:40 PM

sadly i think there are a lot of people that is still stuck in the 60s... some even back in the dark ages
I just dont understand what gives people the right to judge others... Problem for Ennis was probably he was his own worst enemy at times. He judged himself a lot harder than a lot of the people around him would, if they where given a chance.

Again, so true. His state of mind was a burden more to himself than to others -- with the exception of Jack, of course, who suffered. But if Ennis's state of mind didn't progress with the times, then one can say that Jack never really wanted to force the issue. I think he realized that Ennis couldn't deal with many things about their love out in the open -- it was not just a state of mind; it was real emotional suffering. And Jack didn't want to darg Ennis "out in the open" if it meant hurting him deep inside.

Magdalena · « **Reply #15 on:** Jan 17, 2007, 03:03 PM »

two people suffering from ignorance...

tpe · « **Reply #16 on:** Jan 17, 2007, 03:09 PM »

Quote from: Magdalena on Jan 17, 2007, 03:03 PM

two people suffering from ignorance...

Did Ennis deliberately choose to remain ignorant of the possibilities? Hard to say. It is clear, nonetheless, that he felt that the imagined danger of an open life with Jack was more than just a state of mind. And Jack's death probably affirmed this.

Magdalena · « **Reply #17 on:** Jan 17, 2007, 03:12 PM »

i dont actually mean he was ignorant, i think the environment that brought him up was ignorant... That of course left him with scars that was difficult to remove

tpe · « **Reply #18 on:** Jan 17, 2007, 04:03 PM »

Quote from: Magdalena on Jan 17, 2007, 03:12 PM

i dont actually mean he was ignorant, i think the environment that brought him up was ignorant... That of course left him with scars that was difficult to remove

Yes, I know you didn't mean this. But it made me thinking if he tried to play ignorant -- shut his eyes to changing realities.

Personally, I think he saw the reality all to clearly. Jack probably didn't. But I think Jack had it better: to be ignorant or uncaring of the ignorance and intolerance that surrounds you is bliss.

Magdalena · « **Reply #19 on:** Jan 17, 2007, 04:07 PM »

but a dangerous bliss... who knows what was going through their minds, i just dont want to make any one of them the bad guy and the other a hero, they where both victims...

aintfoolin · « **Reply #20 on:** Jan 17, 2007, 04:45 PM »

So I guess that Ennis's statement " aint no reins on this one" meant that he was in it for the long haul as far as his personal feelings about Jack went, but as far as Ennis totally embracing Jack's wishes openly ,there was definitly "reins"on the relationship itself as a whole? Wow, this is one complex man. If Ennis could'nt free himself, Jack was fighting a loosing battle all along trying to change his mind right? Ennis is a product of his childhood environment for sure.

Magdalena · « **Reply #21 on:** Jan 17, 2007, 04:47 PM »

i once learned that the most quiet ones are usually the most complex ones... and i guess this is the case in this movie... Even if Jack had his problems as well. A lot of them, in fact...

aintfoolin · « **Reply #22 on:** Jan 17, 2007, 05:07 PM »

Yeah, It's those quiet ones you gotta watch!

tpe · « **Reply #23 on:** Jan 17, 2007, 06:06 PM »

Wonderful exchange.

Ennis's state of mind is distinct from his love of Jack -- I think all of us would agree with this, no? I think the love was unfettered, and yet the state of mind made it seem that it was conditional. I think like in many things, action always falls short of frue feeling: the feeling one protects deep inside the heart. It is again a pity that Jack could not see through Ennis's actions and straight into Ennis's heart. He probably would have been reassured.

lamusica · « **Reply #24 on:** Jan 17, 2007, 10:04 PM »

I sometimes tend to forget that those 60's prejudices and mind-sets are still very much alive and active in 2007. I live in a town of 42,000, in a metropolitan area of about 2,000,000, and STILL an openly gay lifestyle is extremely risky. There are many people who have not come into the present in their thinking about sex. I tend to forget this until something happens and there's an article in the paper about gay-bashing, wether it be physical or mental. Then I remember, in the US, we still live in a pluralistic society still mired in Victorian sexual hypocrisy.

Ennis was smart, in one way, to be careful, although it ruined his life.

greenfrog · « **Reply #25 on:** Jan 17, 2007, 10:56 PM »

Quote from: lamusica on Jan 17, 2007, 10:04 PM

Ennis was smart, in one way, to be careful, although it ruined his life.

:\'( :\'( :\'(

Poor Ennis and Jack. In the end, it ruined both their lives.

tpe · « **Reply #26 on:** Jan 18, 2007, 01:30 PM »

Quote from: lamusica on Jan 17, 2007, 10:04 PM

I sometimes tend to forget that those 60's prejudices and mind-sets are still very much alive and active in 2007. I live in a town of 42,000, in a metropolitan area of about 2,000,000, and STILL an openly gay lifestyle is extremely risky. There are many people who have not come into the present in their thinking about sex. I tend to forget this until something happens and there's an article in the paper about gay-bashing, wether it be physical or mental. Then I remember, in the US, we still live in a pluralistic society still mired in Victorian sexual hypocrisy.

Ennis was smart, in one way, to be careful, although it ruined his life.

So very true, lamusica.

City Slickin' Cowboy · « **Reply #27 on:** Jul 20, 2007, 10:53 PM »

Quote from: LuvJackNasty on Jan 16, 2007, 11:34 PM

IMO his hang up had more to do with what his father had shown him as a young child. That is awful for an adult to see and try to comprehend never mind a young child- he saw first hand what could happen to "boys like him". I think Ennis's fear is too deeply rooted- that's what compounds his tragedy- it happened anyway and he never took the chance- denied both of them that sweet life together in trying to avoid the tire irons.

Quote from: welshwitch on Jan 17, 2007, 02:08 AM

And given that Ennis. as he admitted himself, never did any travelling, he never saw other places where a life with Jack would have been possible if not easy - he was brought up in a backwater and his mindset remained stuck in the way it had formed - Ennis didn't change in any way. Look at his clothes and the way he lives - he's never moved on, whereas Jack has.

In reality he's less in a sixties frame of mind than stuck where his father put him.

I've never visited this thread. I have to agree with points made in both of these posts. Ennis never progressed beyond his original mindset. It's such a tragedy because I believe the two of them should have had a sweet life together. :\'(

lamusica · « **Reply #28 on:** Jul 21, 2007, 08:03 PM »

When you read Annie's western short stories, you find the same kind of mindset as Ennis had in manyh of her characters. As WW says above, it's not just that Ennis is stuck in the 60's, but also that he is stuck in backcountry Wyoming -- certainly a beautiful place, but a fearful place at the same time. It's a place where people are private and part of the nature so strong in the mountains and barren masses of land. It was not a place for getting together and swapping ideas, or discussing the world and the changing mindset of America where sexual orientation ( or race, or feminism, etc.) was happening so quickly and with such sociological implications. Ennis was stuck, all right. No fault of his. Just his lot in life. He would not have known how to get out of his rut even if he had wanted to.

welshwitch · « **Reply #29 on:** Jul 22, 2007, 01:52 PM »

You might say that landscape moulds character - this difficult land with its rocky mountains where even the lower slopes were harsh places much of the time and its constant wind and extreme winters might produce people who need to be self-sufficient and unemotional in order to survive.
Lureen and even her family are more open and less inward than the people from Wyoming. (Maybe why Jack manages to make a life there for something like eighteen years - Ennis would never have fitted in there.) The difference between Lureen and Alma in the early sixties isn;t just a question of how much money each has - Alma, like Ennis, has grown up in a harsh landscape with limited expectations not only of material things but also of emotional relationships. It's ironic that Lureen turns into somethingmuch harder as the story progresses - the effect of Jack's directing all his emotional intensity at Ennis in a futile attempt to change him from what life has made him.

Author Topic: Was Ennis still in a sixties state of mind? (Read 15744 times)

manhattangirl

greenfrog