Topic: Why did Ennis marry Alma? Was It Love or the next Logical Step.

[tpe]

Which is another way in which Ennis reflects the stereotypical Western man - strong, silent, stoic, never introspective, communicative or analytical. So perhaps he'd have been happier as a loner if he hadn't met alma and lived in a conventional society?

Additional thoughts:

It is the stereotypical Western man with a twist, no?  (No pun intended.)  Ennis is surprisingly complex.  None of his worthy predecessors approach his angst and emotional complexity, I believe.

On the surface, he seems conventional enough, as his marriage showed.  There was love in that marriage, for sure, and he did not exactly abandon Alma for good when Jack appeared.  I am sure he felt the tug on both directions, and  trying to go both directions only tore him apart.  Such are the limits of convention.

[tpe]

he may have ended up alone but at least he felt what its like to love someone and be loved in return. in the end, thats what matter most...if he he had been alone from the beginning, the storyline would've been different. would he have met jack then? since ennis may have went on that trip as a last trip for him to be alone with nature, to say goodbye to being alone for the rest of his life. i believe that everything happens for a reason...if ennis had been alone from the beginning, it would have been worse for him. at least now without jack, he still have alma jr and jenny and not completely alone.

I do agree.  To expereince love made all the difference. 

But if they had never met each other again after 63, would the memory of that brief summer of love sufficed?  I think this was Ennis's original intentions.  By marrying Alma, he aimed at a more conventional life thererafter, perhaps nourished by the remembrance of that brief unconventional love.

[lauren]

I do agree.  To expereince love made all the difference. 

But if they had never met each other again after 63, would the memory of that brief summer of love sufficed?  I think this was Ennis's original intentions.  By marrying Alma, he aimed at a more conventional life thererafter, perhaps nourished by the remembrance of that brief unconventional love.

if ennis and jack never met again after '63, ennis would have pushed the memory of their time together to the back of his mind and tried convincing himself again and again that he did not felt what he did. conventional as it is to marry alma, it is not love and it is not what both of them deserve. everyone deserves to be happy and so does ennis and alma. no one should marry for any reason other than they love each other so much, they can't bear to live another day without seeing the other person--they want to see each other first thing in the morning when they wake up and the last thing they see before they sleep. that's my definition of love and that's what i see in jack and ennis's relationship but it seems that their relationship is not meant to be. gay or not, it's still love....there's no denying that

[tpe]

if ennis and jack never met again after '63, ennis would have pushed the memory of their time together to the back of his mind and tried convincing himself again and again that he did not felt what he did. conventional as it is to marry alma, it is not love and it is not what both of them deserve. everyone deserves to be happy and so does ennis and alma. no one should marry for any reason other than they love each other so much, they can't bear to live another day without seeing the other person--they want to see each other first thing in the morning when they wake up and the last thing they see before they sleep. that's my definition of love and that's what i see in jack and ennis's relationship but it seems that their relationship is not meant to be. gay or not, it's still love....there's no denying that

No denying it, to be sure. It could be pushed back to some remote recess of the mind, but it can't be killed by a life of convention.

[tpe]

Disregarding the SS ,which I am not aware if the following scene I refer was written,I strongly beleieve Alma and Ennis were truly in love,simply by judging their interactions between themselves during the sleding scene.

They ACTED like honeymooners in love. Ennis looked lovinly into Alma's eyes and lightly brushed the bridge of her nose in an affectionate manner. So my gut feeling is he married her because he truly felt he was in love with her.

What confuses me,according to the Claudes Place interview of Ang Lee, his opinion of Ennis sexuality is gay,in spite of the fact he believes Annie Proulx left his sexuality ambiguious.

So what purpose did it serve to provide the sledding scene?

Proulx's ambiguity does not invalidate Ang Lee's belief that Ennis was gay, of course.

As is discussed in amy other threads, it was (and is) not uncommon for gays to be married and appear to have loving relationships with their wives.  In the past of course, marrying was simply a logical next step that they had to do in order to pay lip service to the conventions of society.  Their true feeling found expression elsewhere...

[tpe]

No siree bob,it sure dosen't. However, Ang admission that Annies purpose was for Ennis sexuality to be ambiguous makes it just that... ambiguous. His opinon is also just that..his opinion His being a director of the film doesn't make his opinion hold more weight than any other.

This is true.  We are left to draw our own conclusions.

By all means it's a true statement but this in of itself does not confirm without a doubt Ennis sexuality.It is also not uncommon for very happily married men to be involved with other very happily married men who satisfy both partners.

Yes, here we can only deal with possibilities.  And in life, there are endless possibilities, no?  As I have said many times before, the power of story and film lies in the ambiguity.

[manhattangirl]

HiAltshag:

Great pics.   If Ennis found himself in the position he was in, it's on Ennis.  If his wife got tired of scrubbing clothes in a sink on wash board, and may I remind you in the 1960's, and she was smart enough to get Ennis to  live over a laundry, I'd would say "You Go Girlfriend", she was getting things done. 

And what was this dream, he wasn't exactly a Ben Cartwright,  I didn't hear him speak of a Ponderosa, or anything like that.  I would say he liked moving from ranch to ranch.  If he wanted his own, he would have gotten a loan, and set up his own homestead, but did he, I don't think so.  If Ennis was truly driven he would have gotten father then where he finally wound up, living in a trailer, heck that was not Alma's fault, she's got a house. 

He protects his family, no medals are warrented here, that is what he suppose to do.   

He loved his kids, you have to say that for him, but did he love Alma?  Look when we're young and we think we're in love, we sure as hell look the part.  But beneath it all  what was is there?   When Alma and Ennis are in bed, she pulls him to her, "come here" she whispers to him, and what does he do, promptly flips her over and have his way with her, she doesn't like it or want it.   

And I still say he should have taken Alma to that church social instead of watching "Starsky and Hutch", even kissing Jack at the bottom of the stairs he might have still have a home to go to.

HiAltShag, Your points are very compelling, but I like to look underneath the surface of things.  It like looking in a very nice neighborhood that  you dream of living in, with all the pretty houses with  the white picket fences and tree lined streets.  But what is really underneath?   That's what I look for.   

[manhattangirl]

Dear HiAltShag:

You totally flipped the question, giving it another meaning altogether,  "THAT IS SO GREAT!!!!!".   

To love Ennis, to truly love him, you do have to understand him and his limitations, his needs, his fears. 

Remember when he told Jack when they were on Brokeback, about his life, Jack said remarked "That's more words you spoke in the past two weeks" when Ennis replied, "Hell, that's the most I've said in a year."   Think about that. 

What in the heck did he talk to Alma about?  Did she ever talked about his goals, his dreams?  Did she really know the man she loved, or was he just the man she was going to marry?

She knew how limited he was in education, did she understand that might have affected how he might have seen himself, and try assure him that he's better man then what he thinks he is? 

Did she understand  how limited he was in expressing his thoughts, his feeling didn't she just listen to him, and  help build that confidence that let him know, the words may not be Shakespeare, but she understood them.

Did she understand the expressions on face and what they meant? 

Did she show him how to make love, and not just have sex?

Did she ever tell him you don't ask if your kids want a push on a swing, but you go up and just push them.

Did she make him the priority in her life, show him that he is and most importantly make him believe it ?  No, she didn't. 


On this I agree with you.  May be if she did love him, honestly, with open eyes, and an open heart, what could have been the possibilities? 

I have another question, Do you think Jack saw the real Ennis, or was he too  projecting his needs on him also?


PS:  When I call you friend, I mean it in the best sense of the word, I hope we can be friends. 


 

[aintfoolin]

Imo It was a huge mistake on Ennis's part or Jack for that matter to get married. These are matters of the heart. Ennis's heart was already claimed, SIGNED,SEALED and DELIVERED to Jack Twist. He owned it and no matter how much Alma dreamed it was'nt gonna happen for her with Ennis. I won't go so far as to say he did'nt love her, but his heart just was'nt in this marriage therefore there was no incentive to do for Alma any better than he did. No passion or emotional connection present with her. ( Hell, he thought about Jack during sex with her!)  It was even more evident in the reunion scenes where Ennis's passions lie. We see Alma as what she really was to Ennis, a cover, a mask to hide behind from a closed minded and potentially dangerous society. When Jack arrived, to Ennis it was ALL  Jack and Alma was left in the wind. To her credit she did try to talk him  into finding better jobs , but no matter where he and Alma lived Jack Twist would remain in the picture so this marriage was doomed from the beginning really. My thoughts.

[manhattangirl]

Imo It was a huge mistake on Ennis's part or Jack for that matter to get married. These are matters of the heart. Ennis's heart was already claimed, SIGNED,SEALED and DELIVERED to Jack Twist. He owned it and no matter how much Alma dreamed it was'nt gonna happen for her with Ennis. I won't go so far as to say he did'nt love her, but his heart just was'nt in this marriage therefore there was no incentive to do for Alma any better than he did. No passion or emotional connection present with her. ( Hell, he thought about Jack during sex with her!)  It was even more evident in the reunion scenes where Ennis's passions lie. We see Alma as what she really was to Ennis, a cover, a mask to hide behind from a closed minded and potentially dangerous society. When Jack arrived, to Ennis it was ALL  Jack and Alma was left in the wind. To her credit she did try to talk him  into finding better jobs , but no matter where he and Alma lived Jack Twist would remain in the picture so this marriage was doomed from the beginning really. My thoughts.

You're absolutely right in all you have said.  But, think of the times that men were living in.  to run off in the sunset hand in hand, was not an option, or so they thought.  They were bound to each other more than they themselves understood, and that's the heartbreaking part of their story. 

[aintfoolin]

Yes, it was very different back then compared to today, but yet still people have to hide their love away as we speak. I think they both knew what was at stake in the relationship as they both had givin up so much for it. Like an old married couple,the cost had been counted a long time ago but the results was never balanced out, equally on both sides of the scale.  Back then even holding hands, let alone walk lovingly along a beach like any other couple would have been  quite dangerous.  Ennis was right in a sense that they would be open to ridicule and prejudice and even bodily harm and that is very unfortunate and unfair.   Living on hope, wishes and assumptions does not change people's behavior and backwards thinking. I think they'd have had a better chance, ( not much better though) if they could've left Riverton,as Jack sugessted and found somewhere else to live together, maybe Mexico? And it's  warm there  (for Jack) with lots of ranches.( for Ennis)  Perfect.  But they still  had options I think, and very hard choices.  Unfortunatly Jack paid the cost with  his life, if Ennis's assumptions were right. When will people wake up and realize that love IS a force of nature. We can't control who we  fall in love with , It's just human nature. IMHO.

[tpe]

Imo It was a huge mistake on Ennis's part or Jack for that matter to get married. These are matters of the heart. Ennis's heart was already claimed, SIGNED,SEALED and DELIVERED to Jack Twist. He owned it and no matter how much Alma dreamed it was'nt gonna happen for her with Ennis. I won't go so far as to say he did'nt love her, but his heart just was'nt in this marriage therefore there was no incentive to do for Alma any better than he did. No passion or emotional connection present with her. ( Hell, he thought about Jack during sex with her!)  It was even more evident in the reunion scenes where Ennis's passions lie. We see Alma as what she really was to Ennis, a cover, a mask to hide behind from a closed minded and potentially dangerous society. When Jack arrived, to Ennis it was ALL  Jack and Alma was left in the wind. To her credit she did try to talk him  into finding better jobs , but no matter where he and Alma lived Jack Twist would remain in the picture so this marriage was doomed from the beginning really. My thoughts.

Yes, I thought tha marriages became major obstacles in the end.  But I also think that withough these marriages, perhaps it would have been more difficult to conceal their meetings over the years?  The marriages acted like smoke screens, and it is in keeping with what gay men had been doing for ages -- marrying in order to look normal in the eyes of society.  In that sense, we probably can't blame Ennis and Jack too much for making this mistake...  But a mistake it was, IMO.

[lauren]

Imo It was a huge mistake on Ennis's part or Jack for that matter to get married. These are matters of the heart. Ennis's heart was already claimed, SIGNED,SEALED and DELIVERED to Jack Twist. He owned it and no matter how much Alma dreamed it was'nt gonna happen for her with Ennis. I won't go so far as to say he did'nt love her, but his heart just was'nt in this marriage therefore there was no incentive to do for Alma any better than he did. No passion or emotional connection present with her. ( Hell, he thought about Jack during sex with her!)  It was even more evident in the reunion scenes where Ennis's passions lie. We see Alma as what she really was to Ennis, a cover, a mask to hide behind from a closed minded and potentially dangerous society. When Jack arrived, to Ennis it was ALL  Jack and Alma was left in the wind. To her credit she did try to talk him  into finding better jobs , but no matter where he and Alma lived Jack Twist would remain in the picture so this marriage was doomed from the beginning really. My thoughts.

you're absolutely right! i couldn't agree with you more especially the signed, sealed and delivered part. if ennis had just asked jack to stay after their summer up the mountain, i knew he'd agree without a question. the only thing that's stopping them from having a relationship is ennis himself....sigh...they could be sooooo happy if only ennis forget about his fears for one second and follow his heart. i was hoping that jack would stop the truck and tell ennis that he's making the biggest mistake of his life and he would live to regret it or that ennis would run after jack. seeing jack look back at ennis in the rearview mirror and doing nothing was pure torture....i started crying then.....

[manhattangirl]

In the short story Ennis recognized one thing a long while after they split up in the summer of '63 which caused his breakdown:

"Took me about a year a figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights. Too late then by a long, long while."

This was said by Ennis in the motel scene in the short story.  If he didn't understand what he was feeling, his marriage to Alma was inevitable, it was the next logical step in his mind.   We have to understand that he was not exactly an introspective guy.  What really burns me is his battle with Jack after that.   Jack's "Short leash" charge to Ennis was the most truest statement ever said.  He couldn't let Jack go, but he wanted to keep his image as a "married man".   What really could he have done?   

[tpe]

In th ss Ennis recognized one thing a long while after they split up in the summer of '63 which caused his breakdown:

"Took me about a year a figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights. Too late then by a long, long while."

This was said by Ennis in the motel scene in the ss.  If he didn't understand what he was feeling, his marriage to Alma was inevitable, it was the next logical step in his mind.   We have to understand that he was not exactly an introspective guy.  What really burns me is his battle with Jack after that.   Jack's "Short leash" charge to Ennis was the most truest statement ever said.  He couldn't let Jack go, but he wanted to keep his image as a "married man".   What really could he have done?   

Beautifully said, manhattangirl.  I do think that was quite a significant statement coming from Ennis.  It tells us a lot about him and how he was faighting with himself even as he went through the motions of getting married and becoming a family man.  I guess this means that he had hoped that marriage would "cure" him of his love for Jack.  This way, we see him view marriage as a way out of what he couldn't deal with within himself.

I don't think Ennis intentionally kept Jack on a short leash.  It seemed that he had thought that both of them had to live up to their role as family men first and foremost.  IMO, I think trying to have it both ways ended up not finding fulfillment in either one.

[aintfoolin]

I don't feel the short lease was intentional either, but did Ennis really want to be "cured"? Surely after even 10 years, let alone 20 he found fulfillment in this affair, although He could'nt admit to himself that he loved another man or commit totally to him openly. Seems to me he felt like he "owed" Alma in his promise to marry her even after Brokeback, but deep in his heart , it was Jack, and his daughters who gave his life meaning. Alma was forced into a role unbeknown to her until she saw the infamous kiss. Only then did she realize that Ennis was'nt in this marriage for her alone. The passion she saw in that kiss left no doubt who really had his heart. I don't really understand why she stayed as long as she did after seeing it, holding this secret in. Probably for the girls' sake, she resolved to let it go on and suffered in silenced and continued to be intimate with him. When the postcards came from Jack  through the years ,she could have hid or destroyed them behind Ennis's back or SOMETHING....but she did'nt. WHY? if she had ANY desire  or chance to save her marriage to Ennis. Was she  really that dim? She never even tried to fight for him, not that it would have done any good. My humble opinion

[welshwitch]

There's an element of her looking like a bird confronted by a snake and too terrified to move about Alma after that kiss. She does nothing because she doesn't know what to do, then the longer it goes on the more difficult it becomes to raise the whole thing, so she never does. At least, not until she's long gone from Ennis and has the safety of her new home, marriage, husband to rely on.

[tpe]

I agree.  It was only after marriage to Monroe and the security of a new home did she finally get the strength to confront Ennis -- and reluctantly, at that!  Had Ennis not poked her where it hurt (about being "burned"), she probably would have not come out in the open.

[aintfoolin]

 I suppose she still loved him as well, but she did have family. She had options rather than suffer alone in this. I am reminded of the scene where she comes home with the mail, goes through it to find another postcard from Jack. Here she has a chance , knowing what she knows to nip this "fishing trip" in the bud. I can't beleive she 's that naive.Maybe she feared Ennis....or even Jack. I feel so sorry for her.

[tpe]

I suppose she still loved him as well, but she did have family. She had options rather than suffer alone in this. I am reminded of the scene where she comes home with the mail, goes through it to find another postcard from Jack. Here she has a chance , knowing what she knows to nip this "fishing trip" in the bud. I can't beleive she 's that naive.Maybe she feared Ennis....or even Jack. I feel so sorry for her.

Yes, I did think it was her fear of Ennis.  Remember that we hear the sound of Ennis's truck when she was inspecting the postcard.  That's why she put it back into the pile, no?  She didn't want Ennis to know that she had seen it.

[aintfoolin]

I never noticed the truck sound. The girl needed a friend. So good advice?

[welshwitch]

She knew what the postcard meant but she had no idea what to do about it. After all, what could she say? She knew Ennis - it's noticeable that she attacks him over Jack only when she has Monroe to protect her. I don't think she'd have risked it earlier.

[tpe]

I was thinking that post-reunion, Ennis and Alma knew enough to know that the marriage was no longer the same.  In a sense, I don't think Ennis didn't have to be confronted by Alma -- even if he knew that she knew, he probably wouldn't have cared to change things.

It is at this point that we know that what kept things going was the sense of family that both Ennis and Alma cherished.  Why did they stay married for so long?  Because it was still the logical thing to do: keep holding on to the one thing that both had wanted most dearly in the first place: a sense of belonging to a family.

[welshwitch]

At the risk of sounding cynical, I think it was also economics. This is a society where the man goes out to work and the woman looks after the children. In the early years Alma is dependent on Ennis. He evidently resents her working despite the fact that they need the money, since he sees woman's role as that of the housewife. As long as she stays, she is that and also his camouflage. Alma, with no other options, can't challenge Ennis over Jack; she sticks with him for nearly eight years before divorcing him (I wish we knew the grounds) but by then the girls are bigger and less dependant, she has an income of her own and Monroe is there as a prospective husband.

[manhattangirl]

WW that point is absolutely not cynical.   Divorce it something you have to plan, especially when you have kids.   You must be sure you can be economically viable when you leave a marriage, and notice there was no mention of alimony only child support .  Those eight years after the Kiss, Alma must have felt trapped, living in a home with a man she didn't know or understand. Trying to figure out does he want me or does he want to be with a man.   A man, not another woman, she probably could fight against that but how could she deal with the fact her husband wants a man.   Monroe gave her a job, so she had her own money, and then a life.       

[tpe]

I will raise a question here.  Had Ennis and Alma been more "worldly" or "sophisticated", wouldn't they have suffered less in the intervening years between the reunion and the divorce?  I think one of the problems here was that Alma, in her natural simplicity, continued to love Ennis and consider herself bound to him because of the children and their marriage.  Her bitterness ate her up inside.  She was incapabale of developing the same indifference that glazed over Lureen in the later years, no?  I think this trait differentiates Lureen and Alma more than their economic disparity -- except if you choose to draw a correlation between wealth and worldliness.

[welshwitch]

Or of course you could say that Lureen was more cynical than Alma - she got what she wanted from Jack, a son to carry on the business and a good salesman, not to mention a man who maybe didn't make many demands on her because his mind was fixed elsewhere but who was useful and presentable on social occasions. Anyway, Lureen gets her fun from watching the money mount up, using her adding machine as Jack says.

I think Alma loses interest in Ennis, who never accedes to any of her requests and opposes her working. She evidently blames him for their straitened circumstances, and she may grasp something of why he's so unkeen on getting a steady job. He appears not to want to share any leisure activities with her but always drops everything for the regular meetings with Jack. so I think it becomes obvious that he doesn't love her, and if she did love him early on, she doesn't much in the years after the reunion.

[Anyway, no-one who wears such depressing grungy cardigans is going to get any sympathy from me!]

[tpe]

Or of course you could say that Lureen was more cynical than Alma - she got what she wanted from Jack, a son to carry on the business and a good salesman, not to mention a man who maybe didn't make many demands on her because his mind was fixed elsewhere but who was useful and presentable on social occasions. Anyway, Lureen gets her fun from watching the money mount up, using her adding machine as Jack says.

I think Alma loses interest in Ennis, who never accedes to any of her requests and opposes her working. She evidently blames him for their straitened circumstances, and she may grasp something of why he's so unkeen on getting a steady job. He appears not to want to share any leisure activities with her but always drops everything for the regular meetings with Jack. so I think it becomes obvious that he doesn't love her, and if she did love him early on, she doesn't much in the years after the reunion.

[Anyway, no-one who wears such depressing grungy cardigans is going to get any sympathy from me!]

I do think however that Alma should have not been more visibly hurt in the end if she no longer loved Ennis, no?  Lureem certainly was in "better" shape after Jack died, although discovering the "truth" probably hurt her also.

So I would have to say that Alma still probably had some love for Ennis in the end -- just enough for it to hurt.

[aintfoolin]

These are both excellent points. I personally don't think that Lureen was  as totally emotionally dependent on Jack. With a strong personality of her own, she was going to make it on her own if she had to. Probably had somewhat  of a social support circle of freinds etc.. of some kind, abd would maitain somewhat of  the upper hand on her life, not to mention a wealthy father who thought the world of her. She was bound to be more confident and more independent than Alma. Although, I think Lureen displayed a little bitterness later on herself, the difference in how both coped with their husbands "fishing trips" depended on culture and personal upbringing. Alma went on being the dutiful housewife, while Lureen sought solace through her work. Worlds apart, a world of difference.

[tpe]

These are both excellent points. I personally don't think that Lureen was  as totally emotionally dependent on Jack. With a strong personality of her own, she was going to make it on her own if she had to. Probably had somewhat  of a social support circle of freinds etc.. of some kind, abd would maitain somewhat of  the upper hand on her life, not to mention a wealthy father who thought the world of her. She was bound to be more confident and more independent than Alma. Although, I think Lureen displayed a little bitterness later on herself, the difference in how both coped with their husbands "fishing trips" depended on culture and personal upbringing. Alma went on being the dutiful housewife, while Lureen sought solace through her work. Worlds apart, a world of difference.

Excellent distinction, aintfoolin.  Both did have different mechanisms of coping with their disappointments.  Wonderful observations.

However, I think one more difference between ALma and Lureen is that in the case of Lureen and Jack, it was Lureen who first started cooling down as far as the marriage was concerned.   It seems to me that Jack was a considerate husband and a loving father, even when he became "unfaithful" by his renewed relationship with Ennis.  And I do think part of what prompted him to reconnect with Ennis was being treated as an outsider in his own family.

I suspect that Lureen would have drifted apart from jack even if Ennis and jack never reunited...