Topic: Ennis & Jack: Was it an Abusive Relationship, if not why?

[LuvJackNasty]

Part of Ennis knew that Jack loved him unconditionally and would never leave him no matter what, but because he'd been abandoned so many times in the past he couldn't allow himself to be totally secure of Jack's love, and he needed to push Jack away to prove that Jack would never go.

That is so beautifully stated!  :\'(

Rather than wishing Jack would leave him alone, I think Ennis was testing Jack.  He was giving Jack an opening to escape the relationship if he wanted to; Jack could go to Mexico, or anywhere else where he could find satisfaction.  Enis was giving him that chance to flee.  What Ennis really wanted was Jack to "torque it back" to where it was before, as Annie says they finally did.  IMO, it is Ennis's poor self-image that keeps him where he is and has made him what he is -- not Jack.  And I believe Ennis realises that.  He is merely shouting out, hitting out at Jack because he can't stand the thought that he did this to himself.  As low as he feels, he needs that affirmation from Jack that Jack still wants him and will still meet him in November.  That's the ONLY good thing in Ennis's life. Hope this makes sense.

It makes perfect sense- sometimes we do things to test those closest to us as a way of proving something to ourselves; sometimes this is calculated and other times we do it without even realizing it.

This topic is making me sad- trying to get into their inner psyches- makes me realize more than ever how many conflicting emotions were running through them at any given time. 

[manhattangirl]

WOW,

So much many great thoughts.  It makes you look at yourself and whatever kind of relationships you have.  That's why I love this story so much.   We may not consciously know what moves us, what makes us take the actions we do, or say the things we say.  But, we watch this movie or read the story, and its us.  At some point in this saga we see something that reminds us ourselves.     

[tpe]

I think Ennis did subconsciously try to push Jack away to make him leave him, because he was so scared he was going to lose him anyway. Ennis has lost people close to him his whole life:his parents, his brother and sister, then later Alma and his daughters, he probably felt it was only a matter of time before he lost Jack too, and subconsciously was trying to not prolong the agony, get it over with. When Jack says "I wish I knew how to quit you", Ennis hits back with "Well why don't you?", as if Jack's words are just confirmation of what he's been expecting all along. If Ennis really wanted to end it, he would've done so himself, Jack's confession about Mexico was a perfect excuse to finish it there and then if that's what he wanted, but of course it's not what he wants at all. And deep down he knows Jack wouldn't quit him, so it's "safe" for him to say that. Part of Ennis knew that Jack loved him unconditionally and would never leave him no matter what, but because he'd been abandoned so many times in the past he couldn't allow himself to be totally secure of Jack's love, and he needed to push Jack away to prove that Jack would never go.
Ahdunno...just thinking out loud...this topic is giving me a lot of food for thought

CrimsonSky, I have a feeling of recognition when I read your first statement (above).  I do think this makes sense.  The tendency of alienated and lonely people is to initially push people away, since they have gone through so much rejection and therefore are keen on avoiding any situation where they might be rejected further. 

You had said it wonderfully.  I feel the same way.

[welshwitch]

's not only pre-emptive; it's also confirmatory. "That just shows he never loved me anyway;" ie you create the reason for the other prson to back away then blame him when he does. Ennis already thought of himself as nothing, so if Jack abandoned or betrayed him, that would be only what he would expect him to do, and Jack's actions could also be seen as dofferentiating him from Ennis, hence the " boys like you" comment.

[manhattangirl]

Thank you Welshwitch and CrimsonSky,

In the tent that second night, you saw how Ennis lost himself in Jack. He finally found a safe harbor.  But that couldn't change the conditioning of so many years prior.   So when it was time to part at the end of that summer, we saw Ennis reaction when Jack's truck past him on the road. He felt something rip at his insides, and how he tried to fight it. And fight it ever since then.   

You're right subconsciously he tried to push Jack away, not really wanting to, but that was how its always been for him, people just up and leave out of his life, why should Jack be any different, "look,  I'm giving you a way out of this."   


Jack always wanted Ennis to be the one who made the first move in being together, and tauted him about Mexico, and on a short leash he kept him on, etc.  We  know how tortured Ennis was.  Why do you think knowing this,  Jack never gave the hint of him leaving everything and moving closer to Ennis.  We've (Well I have been) concentrating on what Ennis role in this back and forth game,  why didn't Jack make any  declaration of him giving up what he had to move nearer to Ennis?    The more I read yours and other post on this subject, I'm beginning to wonder who was the one who had the real power in this relationship, and who used it? 

Thank you all so much.

[LuvJackNasty]

I know we've had discussion on why Jack didn't leave Lureen. I only found one thread that is actually devoted to that topic but I know there was more discussion- more than likely within various other threads.

Here is the one thread I found http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=1236.msg13900#msg13900

IMO Jack wasn't completely unhappy with Lureen- the marriage was tolerable. To move closer to Ennis and still not be able to have him may have been worse in some sense- that so close yet so far type of thing. I don't know if Ennis would have seen Jack more often if Jack was closer because people might talk- I'm sure he would have wanted to but... Plus where is Jack going to go? Not to LF with his parents, then he'd have to find a job, there's support to pay for Bobby etc etc. If Ennis were to agree to ranch up with him I think he'd have been there in half a heartbeat and worry about the details later. Jack needs to be around people and to move away all by himself and live by himself would have been too lonely for him. There's the whole being lonely by yourself and lonely with someone (Lureen) thing- something was better than nothing. Jack was willing to give up everything if Ennis had said yes to him; so yes there were conditions to it in a sense but most of us don't go changing our lives on a hope and a prayer. Ennis knew Jack now had all of these creature comforts that he himself didn't have and he knew Jack was willing to give it all up for him.

[LuvJackNasty]

's not only pre-emptive; it's also confirmatory. "That just shows he never loved me anyway;" ie you create the reason for the other prson to back away then blame him when he does. Ennis already thought of himself as nothing, so if Jack abandoned or betrayed him, that would be only what he would expect him to do, and Jack's actions could also be seen as dofferentiating him from Ennis, hence the " boys like you" comment.

Well said 

[lamusica]

There were really several times when Ennis gave Jack the chance to leave the relationship.  He made it clear in so many ways that he didn't want any ties to Jack.  Their relationship was what it was -- not what Jack imagined it to be.  When he socked him right before they came down from BBM, he gave Jack a reason to be angry and leave.  When they parted at Jack's truck, Jack made several overtures to see Ennis again, but Ennis cut each one off, deliberately making it hard or impossible for Jack to have any hope of them getting together again.  When Jack visited him after the divorce.....Well, I agree 100% with your last post, WW. Ennis was what he was and his lack of confidence and self-love only opened him up for loss, heartache and loneliness.

[manhattangirl]

There were really several times when Ennis gave Jack the chance to leave the relationship.  He made it clear in so many ways that he didn't want any ties to Jack.  Their relationship was what it was -- not what Jack imagined it to be.  When he socked him right before they came down from BBM, he gave Jack a reason to be angry and leave.  When they parted at Jack's truck, Jack made several overtures to see Ennis again, but Ennis cut each one off, deliberately making it hard or impossible for Jack to have any hope of them getting together again.  When Jack visited him after the divorce.....Well, I agree 100% with your last post, WW. Ennis was what he was and his lack of confidence and self-love only opened him up for loss, heartache and loneliness.

This relationship is absolutely fascinating.  On one hand you have Jack and Ennis passionately in love with each other, and on the other hand you have these same two people battling over the commitment to each other, and through all of this continued to see each other for twenty years, holding on desperately to each other, and what each thought they had.

You would think that there was some outside force was trying tear them apart, something they can join forces and fight together against.  But there wasn't any outside force, there  no angry mob ready with torches and a hanging rope, it was between them. They gave each other great joy, but could inflict great pain on one another, like stabbing at each other with an emotional knife, when Jack got too close, and Ennis pushing further back 

[Liana]

For what I know and have seen about Enis he is a reserved person who has problem with showing his feelings. He is a man who's used to hide his thoughts and feelings deep inside. And there always comes a time when everything that you keep inside will burst out in some way or another. The things he tries to hide from everyone and from himself are gathering in him and sometimes it needs a small thing to trigger the explosion. And IMO this is the reason why he is a spitfire from time to time. It has nothing to do with Jack or anyone else it's because of Enis's incapability to deal with his feeling in other way.

[tpe]

Thank you Welshwitch and CrimsonSky,

In the tent that second night, you saw how Ennis lost himself in Jack. He finally found a safe harbor.  But that couldn't change the conditioning of so many years prior.   So when it was time to part at the end of that summer, we saw Ennis reaction when Jack's truck past him on the road. He felt something rip at his insides, and how he tried to fight it. And fight it ever since then.   

You're right subconsciously he tried to push Jack away, not really wanting to, but that was how its always been for him, people just up and leave out of his life, why should Jack be any different, "look,  I'm giving you a way out of this."   


Jack always wanted Ennis to be the one who made the first move in being together, and tauted him about Mexico, and on a short leash he kept him on, etc.  We  know how tortured Ennis was.  Why do you think knowing this,  Jack never gave the hint of him leaving everything and moving closer to Ennis.  We've (Well I have been) concentrating on what Ennis role in this back and forth game,  why didn't Jack make any  declaration of him giving up what he had to move nearer to Ennis?    The more I read yours and other post on this subject, I'm beginning to wonder who was the one who had the real power in this relationship, and who used it? 

Thank you all so much.

I thought that Jack felt Ennis would not have approved if he tried to get himself in between Ennis and Alma.  The conversation during the reunion after 4 years said as much  -- when Jack is rebuffed by Ennis when Jack criticizes the life he lead with Alma, and when Ebnis tells Jack that he had his life in Riverton and Jack, in Texas.

I think Jack saw no reason to move back closer to Ennis unless Ennis was ready to share a life with him.  Without that commitment, he would only be in a tricky situation that Ennis would not at all appreciate.  That was partly the reason why they kept on meeting in remote mountain locations -- to make sure that their time together was set apart from their own chosen worlds of stability and unhappiness.

[tpe]

For what I know and have seen about Enis he is a reserved person who has problem with showing his feelings. He is a man who's used to hide his thoughts and feelings deep inside. And there always comes a time when everything that you keep inside will burst out in some way or another. The things he tries to hide from everyone and from himself are gathering in him and sometimes it needs a small thing to trigger the explosion. And IMO this is the reason why he is a spitfire from time to time. It has nothing to do with Jack or anyone else it's because of Enis's incapability to deal with his feeling in other way.

I agree with the point that Ennis became more spiteful,evasive, and bitter in part because of all the pent-up feelings he tried to suppress.  I do think this was also one of the reasons as to why he chose to see less and less of Jack (taking into full account real financial considerations).  The less he saw of Jack, the more he had to supress; the more he had to suppress, the less he was inclined to see Jack.  It was a vicious circle...