Topic: Two similar scenes (spoiler)

[tpe]

Did anyone else notice at Thanksgiving when Ennis said, "I was no angel..." and the camera went to Alma, who shot him a look.  This i believe was the opening to her comments about Jack and their fight in the kitchen.  He was no angel. 

Can anyone figure out what she is yelling?  I finally picked up the words, i'll call Monroe... but she said something after that.

Yes, she did say "I'll call Monroe".  And ashe did say "Get OUt!" several times after that.

So you are saying that the Thanksgiving scene is similar to which scene, on account of the "I was no angel..." comment?  I gather that you are pointing out that this signified the start of the fight in the kitchen.  So you are saying that there is a parallel with the scene at the table and the later scene in the kitchen?

[welshwitch]

There's such a wonderful contrast between the idea of Thanksgiving - family all together, everyone happy - and these two Thnaksgiving scenes with all the emotions, repressed at first then bursting out in both cases. there's jealousy, suspicion, dislike, contempt, rage - all those things which, if I were a cycnic, I'd say often emerge from family "celebrations".

[ksxks]

We can compare the two Thanksgiving scenes -- domestic, family -- with any of the "domestic," "family" scenes of Ennis and Jack together:  setting up camp, eating together, doing dishes.  Except for the argument by the river when Ennis was washing up the dishes, their domestic scenes showed a happy family of two...

kathy

[tpe]

The veneer of domesticity that characterizes theThanksgiving scene fails in oth scenes to hide the strong undercurrent of betrayal.  If my memory is correct, Jack's thanksgiving scene immediately follows the scene where he performs a sex act with the Mexican hustler (the near-juxtaposition of this scene with the picture of the gravy-drenched turkey is quite disturbing, for some reason).  Likewise, the Thanksgiving scene with Ennis ends in an open confrontation at who's heart is the betrayal of trust.

Love and betrayal  - these two things add layers of complexity and confusion in our comparing the two Thanksgiving scenes.  And as kathy had hinted at, the betrayal is nothing but the desire both of them (Ennis and Jack) to love each other freely.   The "domesticity" of their time together in the mountains is nothing but a betrayal of the "normal" life they chose to lead when they were apart.

In short, which is true love, and which is true betrayal?  I ask you that.

[tamlynn]

tpe,

I'm saying that Ennis's comment "i'm no angel" was a reminder to Elma that Ennis was no angel on Brokeback Mountain.  That's why she shot him that look and confronted him in the kitchen and they finally had their showdown.  Even though he was referring to flying off a bronc and couldn't fly like an angel, she picked up on a double meaning, that he didn't intend.  But to her, it was a trigger.  He was no angel.  He cheated.

Just something I noticed after watching upteen times. 

tam

[jackster]

Very perceptive tamlynn! I never made that connection, but it sure makes sense now when I look at it. I always thought Alma was shootin' him that look 'cause he was kinda' warming up to his teenage daughters who obviously adored their hunky, masculine father, probably much more than than their stepfather. You're right, it may be this Angel comment is what propted Alma to try and put him in his place with her "you don't go up there to fish" accusation. Great observation.

[welshwitch]

I'm sure you're right too, Jackster. Ennis is evidently some sort of mythical cowboy hero to the girls, thus Monroe the grocer evidently compares badly and I think there's at least some sort of warning in Alma's look, as if she doesn't want Ennis trying to show Monroe up.

[tpe]

tpe,

I'm saying that Ennis's comment "i'm no angel" was a reminder to Elma that Ennis was no angel on Brokeback Mountain.  That's why she shot him that look and confronted him in the kitchen and they finally had their showdown.  Even though he was referring to flying off a bronc and couldn't fly like an angel, she picked up on a double meaning, that he didn't intend.  But to her, it was a trigger.  He was no angel.  He cheated.

Just something I noticed after watching upteen times. 

tam

Tam, this is excellent!  Thank you. 

[lightnin flat]

Hey, I know its been a while since anyone's posted here, but I'm just working my way around the forum...
How about the connection in the following scenes:
When Ennis tells Jack "If you can't fix it... you gotta stand it" on the night of their first 'fishing' trip and when Ennis breaks down during his last scene together with Jack and while embraced by Jack painfully proclaims "I just can't stand it anymore Jack"... :'(
Kind of prophetic seeing as in the first instance it's said in response to Jack's question of how long they can keep up their affair, and in the second instance it effectively is the end of their affair...

i watched the film today and suddenly realise yes ennis said to jack what he had said 16years earlier if you cant fix it   you gotta stand it .this was obviously ennis,s way of saying he cant take no more but does he mean he wants to make things permanent with jack [doubtfull] or does he mean he wants to end it . he did say 16 years previous when jack said for how long and he said as long as we can ride it .did jack remember what ennis said all them years ago [you gotta stand it ]now he is telling jack i cant stand this no more jack.

[aintfoolin]

 yep and in between Jack says the famous "I miss you so much I can hardly stand it"Ennis's philosphy was'nt working for either of them. MO

[lightnin flat]

      yea thats right jack did say that so jack said i can hardly stand it. and ennis said i cant stand this no more jack.both were said at their last meeting together.

[jackster]

Just noticed this great cinematic play the other night . . . . goodbyes in '63 and '82.

The first leaving or breakup scene in Signal '63 and the last breakup scene after the argument in '82. Maybe this has been mentioned before, but an amazingly clever mirror image of Jack at his truck getting ready to go and Ennis stammering around not being able to verbalize anything about their departure. Both heartbreaking and difficult scenes and showing how little had changed in their verbal communication skill in twenty years.

Jacks posture almost the same, Ennis's facial expressions very similar too.

[LuvJackNasty]

Wow! I never put that together! Full circle once again for our boys.

[lancecowboy]

Just noticed this great cinematic play the other night . . . . goodbyes in '63 and '82.

The first leaving or breakup scene in Signal '63 and the last breakup scene after the argument in '82. Maybe this has been mentioned before, but an amazingly clever mirror image of Jack at his truck getting ready to go and Ennis stammering around not being able to verbalize anything about their departure. Both heartbreaking and difficult scenes and showing how little had changed in their verbal communication skill in twenty years.

Jacks posture almost the same, Ennis's facial expressions very similar too.

Thanks, Jackster, I love this insight. It shows how after twenty fricking years, the two of them are still in the same old stuck rut, and Jack was ready to move on, while Ennis was still feeling powerless to change, feeling stuck. Their communications skills haven't changed; their responses to each other haven't changed; and more importantly, their social standing relative to each other haven't changed. Ennis was still the poor guy to Jack's well off glamor.

There is a subtle difference, however, in that the '63 Ennis wasn't beaten down by poverty, failure in marriage, and twenty years of love denied. And Jack wasn't frustrated by twenty years of loved unrequited, put-downs by father-in-law, and liberated by the new sense of freedom and self-respect after the Thanksgiving scene.

The sense of equilibrium in '63 was missing and in '82, it felt like Ennis was afraid of Jack.

Just my two cents worth, for two wonderful actors in two wonderful scenes. 

[myprivatejack]

Thanks, Jackster, I love this insight. It shows how after twenty fricking years, the two of them are still in the same old stuck rut, and Jack was ready to move on, while Ennis was still feeling powerless to change, feeling stuck. Their communications skills haven't changed; their responses to each other haven't changed; and more importantly, their social standing relative to each other haven't changed. Ennis was still the poor guy to Jack's well off glamor.

There is a subtle difference, however, in that the '63 Ennis wasn't beaten down by poverty, failure in marriage, and twenty years of love denied. And Jack wasn't frustrated by twenty years of loved unrequited, put-downs by father-in-law, and liberated by the new sense of freedom and self-respect after the Thanksgiving scene.

The sense of equilibrium in '63 was missing and in '82, it felt like Ennis was afraid of Jack.

Just my two cents worth, for two wonderful actors in two wonderful scenes. 

Lance¡.As always,your sharp perception make me realise something hidden up to now...Yes,it's as if anything had changed, as if 20 years passed only had served to have more kilos and wrinkles...But,as you remark,between two scenes there´re 20 years of frustrations,negations,bitterness and renunciations;what about another kind of wrinkles they had,less visible but deeper than the physicall ones:the wrinkles in their souls?.Of course,yes,the sense of equilibrium was already missing in 82 farewell scene, but I wouldn ´t say Ennis was afraid of Jack,at least not at 100% really.I mean he was afraid of what Jack represented,of what Jack forced somehow to do and TO BE, of the possibility of a REAL change in his life he was not  prepared for;but,above all,he was afraid of himself...That's why he "explodes" in this final scene,because he's really afraid of what he can decide,and feels as if he'd be between the devil and the deep blue sea;but not between Jack and the new life that scares him so much,but between this and himself.IMO.
But yes,at the end they're two touching scenes served by two splendid actors that make us feel all this as ours.

[tpe]

Just noticed this great cinematic play the other night . . . . goodbyes in '63 and '82.

The first leaving or breakup scene in Signal '63 and the last breakup scene after the argument in '82. Maybe this has been mentioned before, but an amazingly clever mirror image of Jack at his truck getting ready to go and Ennis stammering around not being able to verbalize anything about their departure. Both heartbreaking and difficult scenes and showing how little had changed in their verbal communication skill in twenty years.

Jacks posture almost the same, Ennis's facial expressions very similar too.

Wonderful comparison, Jackster.  I can't see the pix just now at the office, but I know EXACTLY what you mean!

It's amazing to observe the non-verbal elements: body language, facial twitches, etc. in both scenes.  I am also thinking of the 2 scenes when (1) Ennis has just told Jack that he would be marrying Alma and may not be back, and (2) Ennis has just told Jack that the next time they would meet would be November.  IN both scenes, they show a close-up of Jack's face.  In both cases, there is a quiet desperation in his face, and a will to suppress how he truly felt.

 

[lancecowboy]

Lance¡.As always,your sharp perception make me realise something hidden up to now...Yes,it's as if anything had changed, as if 20 years passed only had served to have more kilos and wrinkles...But,as you remark,between two scenes there´re 20 years of frustrations,negations,bitterness and renunciations;what about another kind of wrinkles they had,less visible but deeper than the physicall ones:the wrinkles in their souls?.Of course,yes,the sense of equilibrium was already missing in 82 farewell scene, but I wouldn ´t say Ennis was afraid of Jack,at least not at 100% really.I mean he was afraid of what Jack represented,of what Jack forced somehow to do and TO BE, of the possibility of a REAL change in his life he was not  prepared for;but,above all,he was afraid of himself...That's why he "explodes" in this final scene,because he's really afraid of what he can decide,and feels as if he'd be between the devil and the deep blue sea;but not between Jack and the new life that scares him so much,but between this and himself.IMO.
But yes,at the end they're two touching scenes served by two splendid actors that make us feel all this as ours.

Thanks, myprivatejack. Your compliments are always appreciated, and I feel undeserved since I am merely echoing what Jackster pointed out, and I missed every time I watched the movie.

I agree with you that Ennis is not afraid of Jack so much as afraid of how Jack may react, his disappointment, his hurt. The two of them understand each other so instinctively that wihout saying the words, Ennis already understood what Jack's reaction would be before he told him of the dropped date in August. And that the reaction may lead to Ennis having to make a decision, as he had done many times before, to quit his job, or disappoint Jack. Neither options is attractive. In the end, Jack made the choice for Ennis, because Jack knew that's what Ennis would do. He didn't count on Cassie opening Ennis' heart to understand love is not about fun.

And as Jackster pointed out, there is a close up to Jack's face on each occasion, after Ennis walked/drove away. After twenty years...with only Brokeback Mountain...the same old story.

[jackster]

To follow through with these two "farewell" scenes from '63 and '82, in addition to Ang's clever matching of Jack at the pickup cab door pose, he continues this repeated theme again with Ennis a few seconds later in each scene when his emotions overpower him.

Ennis's collapse and cry in Alley is repeated 20 years later with Ennis's collapse and crying this time in Jack's arms. In both cases a discovery of his limitations on what he can and "can't stand". And in each case accompanied by a violent outburst. "Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved"


   

I've watched this umteen times counting the times Ennis's cries and other stuff but never noticed the incredible mirroring of these two pivotal scenes, I guess you know you in the hands of a master when your being so gently manipulated you don't even realise it!

[lancecowboy]

To follow through with these two "fairwell" scenes from '63 and '82, in addition to Ang's clever matching of Jack at the pickup cab door pose, he continues this repeated theme again with Ennis a few seconds later in each scene when his emotions overpower him.

Ennis's collapse and cry in Alley is repeated 20 years later with Ennis's collapse and crying this time in Jack's arms. In both cases a discovery of his limitations on what he can and "can't stand". And in each case accompanied by a violent outburst. "Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved"

That's wonderfully perceptive, Jackster! It must be planned, since these postures are so similar that two similar scenes in almost immediate sequence can hardly be coincidental. Ang Lee is a genius. And it's wonderful to continue to discover every detail in the movie.

There is a slight difference between these two scenes, in that Jack is there for Ennis in '82.

[aintfoolin]

I feel in both scenes Ennis is feeling a devastating ,hopelessness about losing Jack. It goes to the depth of his lfeeling for him. His need for him. In both cases he is on his knees,  symbolizing a kind of *uncontolled surrender *to this need for Jack's presence in his life. He is so emotionally invested in Jack that the thought of loosing him forever scared, yet humbled him imo. Jack was so much a part of him, Ennis knew they both had so much to loose.   Just a thought.

[tpe]

To follow through with these two "farewell" scenes from '63 and '82, in addition to Ang's clever matching of Jack at the pickup cab door pose, he continues this repeated theme again with Ennis a few seconds later in each scene when his emotions overpower him.

Ennis's collapse and cry in Alley is repeated 20 years later with Ennis's collapse and crying this time in Jack's arms. In both cases a discovery of his limitations on what he can and "can't stand". And in each case accompanied by a violent outburst. "Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved"

I've watched this umteen times counting the times Ennis's cries and other stuff but never noticed the incredible mirroring of these two pivotal scenes, I guess you know you in the hands of a master when your being so gently manipulated you don't even realise it!

Thanks you so much for this comparison, Jackster.  Yes, I do feel that they mirror weach other.  In the later scene, of course, Jack was replaced the wall.  He is there to absorb some of the pain.

[tpe]

That's wonderfully perceptive, Jackster! It must be planned, since these postures are so similar that two similar scenes in almost immediate sequence can hardly be coincidental. Ang Lee is a genius. And it's wonderful to continue to discover every detail in the movie.

There is a slight difference between these two scenes, in that Jack is there for Ennis in '82.

I feel in both scenes Ennis is feeling a devastating ,hopelessness about losing Jack. It goes to the depth of his lfeeling for him. His need for him. In both cases he is on his knees,  symbolizing a kind of *uncontolled surrender *to this need for Jack's presence in his life. He is so emotionally invested in Jack that the thought of loosing him forever scared, yet humbled him imo. Jack was so much a part of him, Ennis knew they both had so much to loose.   Just a thought.

I agree with both of you, in that the significant difference is the presence of Jack in the latter scene.  In the first scene, the kneeling posture can also be interpreted as a kind of surrender, but it gains monumentality with the presence of Jack in the later scene.  The significance is all to hard to ignore.

[jackster]

Ennis watching Jack         -           Jack watching Ennis

Ennis watches Jack struggle with a bucking horse and ride off, later Jack watches Ennis mount and ride off after the Dozy Embrace. Two different scenes with different emotional content but the look in the eyes seems to be wondering the same thoughts.

[chameau]

Ennis watching Jack         -           Jack watching Ennis

Ennis watches Jack struggle with a bucking horse and ride off, later Jack watches Ennis mount and ride off after the Dozy Embrace. Two different scenes with different emotional content but the look in the eyes seems to be wondering the same thoughts.

I agree and don't...  It's a picture of Ennis watching Jack, nothing happened yet but...   This picture of him reminds me one of the first shots of Jack at the beginning of the movie, meeting and looking at Ennis for the first time...

 

They for sure look at each other 

About this picture...



The ice is already broken and the unspeakable happened.  I wish I could find a corresponding picture of Ennis, but I could find none... or sad ones after Jack is gone.  :\'(

I shall take a brake of this thread. 

[jackster]

Yes Cham, I think I know what you mean here. The emotional content is so different in the scenes, but the action with the other guy riding away on a horseback seems so similar. I think that maybe you're right and emotionally the opposing picture of Ennis might really be this:
 

[myprivatejack]

Yes and not,because one more time the context is very different:in Jack´s case,the look is from a lover who is seeing his loved running away from him for a while,knowing that it´s only a parenthesis that won´t impede their love story to continue.In Ennis´,unfortunately,we find ourselves before the irremediable;the parenthesis is broken forever and now there´s the emptiness,the nothingness...And,apart of the different circumstances,there´s not a visual contact with the lover (or future lover),as in these two other two pictures

 

They´re looking at the other when their relationship was at the beguinning,they  know barely nothing about each other,and in the sense the similarity can be greater.Looks of love from Ennis to Jack?:when he is joking about he´s forgetting his harmonica;when they´re by the river speaking about their respective relationship with "women";when they´re carrying the sheeps from the mountain while Jack is playing the harmonica again...They are glances that speak a lot about his feelings,much more than his (few)words;but I think there´s not a picture of real love from Ennis when he´s losing Jack for a while-not forever-.

[tpe]

Interesting comparisons.  Thanks friends. 

I agree on the comment about different emotional content vis-s-vis similar looking scenes.  One other example of this are two scenes showing Jack riding alone: one is at the beginning of their stay in BBM, where he goes up to spend the night with the sheep;



the other, when he returns to camp without finding Ennis:



Although the emotional and overall content of the two scenes are very different, I still somehow managed to confused pictures from these two scenes in the beginning.  There is a similar look or feel with the two scenes, perhaps?

 

[myprivatejack]

Interesting comparisons.  Thanks friends. 

I agree on the comment about different emotional content vis-s-vis similar looking scenes.  One other example of this are two scenes showing Jack riding alone: one is at the beginning of their stay in BBM, where he goes up to spend the night with the sheep;



the other, when he returns to camp without finding Ennis:



Although the emotional and overall content of the two scenes are very different, I still somehow managed to confused pictures from these two scenes in the beginning.  There is a similar look or feel with the two scenes, perhaps?

Perhaps a feeling of loneliness and progressive need that he hope to fill with the one he was running away from in the first, and he didn´t find in the second picture.Does this make sense?.

[tpe]

Perhaps a feeling of loneliness and progressive need that he hope to fill with the one he was running away from in the first, and he didn´t find in the second picture.Does this make sense?.

Yes, this makes perfect sense -- the sense of longing is the common element in both scenes, I believe.  Thanks MPJ!

[ak]

I found two small scenes, or am I over-imaginative?

1. The scenes where Jack shaves at the beginning of the film and where Ennis shaves at the camp site.  I wondered why Ang Lee made them do this particular thing in the film and figured may be he wanted to emphasize that this was a story about two men.  Because for me, shaving is a kind of symbol of men. It's not what women do everyday.

2. The scene where Ennis removes off jack's hat after the SNIT and where Ennis removes off Jack's hat at the reunion scene.  I wonder how many times Ennis took off Jack's hat, when he wanted him, during those  twenty years.