Topic: Two similar scenes (spoiler)

[tpe]

I found two small scenes, or am I over-imaginative?

1. The scenes where Jack shaves at the beginning of the film and where Ennis shaves at the camp site.  I wondered why Ang Lee made them do this particular thing in the film and figured may be he wanted to emphasize that this was a story about two men.  Because for me, shaving is a kind of symbol of men. It's not what women do everyday.

2. The scene where Ennis removes off jack's hat after the SNIT and where Ennis removes off Jack's hat at the reunion scene.  I wonder how many times Ennis took off Jack's hat, when he wanted him, during those  twenty years.

You are not being over-imaginitive, ak.  I love both of them.  I also did happen to notice the first one, so you are certainly not alone. 

And welcome to the forum! 

[babytammy7]

I found two small scenes, or am I over-imaginative?

1. The scenes where Jack shaves at the beginning of the film and where Ennis shaves at the camp site.  I wondered why Ang Lee made them do this particular thing in the film and figured may be he wanted to emphasize that this was a story about two men.  Because for me, shaving is a kind of symbol of men. It's not what women do everyday.

2. The scene where Ennis removes off jack's hat after the SNIT and where Ennis removes off Jack's hat at the reunion scene.  I wonder how many times Ennis took off Jack's hat, when he wanted him, during those  twenty years.

WOW, very good points. I love the first one and I agree, and I wonder too about the second point.

Thank you!!

[myprivatejack]

A few time ago I spoke with two other Brokies about the similarity of these two scenes-although they maybe could be included in the thread "Double meanings"...-.One of them says that in the first pic,Ennis turns his back to Alma,as if he didn't want to see her,maybe because he's believing that is Jack who is holding him.And that in the second,it's Ennis who is holding Jack,but he does it without wanting to see that is him whom is holding.She declared that all Ennis inner fight is seen in these two pics;that he never could be himself,neither with Jack,nor with Alma.
I said on my part that it also can mean that in the first pic is Ennis the held by Alma,the one who really loves.And that with Jack,he's the active part-I'm not talking about the sexual sense... -,who holds Jack,who is the person he really loves too.Like a change of positions and feelings...What's your opinion about?.

[vedrana]

A few time ago I spoke with two other Brokies about the similarity of these two scenes-although they maybe could be included in the thread "Double meanings"...-.One of them says that in the first pic,Ennis turns his back to Alma,as if he didn't want to see her,maybe because he's believing that is Jack who is holding him.And that in the second,it's Ennis who is holding Jack,but he does it without wanting to see that is him whom is holding.She declared that all Ennis inner fight is seen in these two pics;that he never could be himself,neither with Jack,nor with Alma.
I said on my part that it also can mean that in the first pic is Ennis the held by Alma,the one who really loves.And that with Jack,he's the active part-I'm not talking about the sexual sense... -,who holds Jack,who is the person he really loves too.Like a change of positions and feelings...What's your opinion about?.

This is very good remark - Ennis being held by someone who loves him and holding someone he loves. In both cases not able to surrender completely.

Very good thread indeed. So many similarities in the movie to explore.

[tpe]

A few time ago I spoke with two other Brokies about the similarity of these two scenes-although they maybe could be included in the thread "Double meanings"...-.One of them says that in the first pic,Ennis turns his back to Alma,as if he didn't want to see her,maybe because he's believing that is Jack who is holding him.And that in the second,it's Ennis who is holding Jack,but he does it without wanting to see that is him whom is holding.She declared that all Ennis inner fight is seen in these two pics;that he never could be himself,neither with Jack,nor with Alma.
I said on my part that it also can mean that in the first pic is Ennis the held by Alma,the one who really loves.And that with Jack,he's the active part-I'm not talking about the sexual sense... -,who holds Jack,who is the person he really loves too.Like a change of positions and feelings...What's your opinion about?.

Yes, I also felt that there was parity in these scens -- not exactky the same, but a sort of mirror image, if you will. 

And the meaning you ascribe to it is indeed quite interesting.  Whether or not it is intentional, I think they do seem to echo each other, taking into account the change in postions or POV.

[myprivatejack]

Yes, I also felt that there was parity in these scens -- not exactky the same, but a sort of mirror image, if you will. 

And the meaning you ascribe to it is indeed quite interesting.  Whether or not it is intentional, I think they do seem to echo each other, taking into account the change in postions or POV.

Yes,exactly; is this what IMO my fellow wanted to say ¡ Like a mirror where it's reflected Ennis wishes and fears,what attracts him and what he rejects...He is hold and he holds,but in both cases,he doesn't want to look at the active or passive person of the action.It's as if he doesn't want to face to reality,the reality he has and the reality he wants to have,but he's afraid to accept fully.And,on the other hand,the positions change-loving and be loved-it's fairly clear,always with Ennis in the middle.Any other idea?.

[tpe]

Yes,exactly; is this what IMO my fellow wanted to say ¡ Like a mirror where it's reflected Ennis wishes and fears,what attracts him and what he rejects...He is hold and he holds,but in both cases,he doesn't want to look at the active or passive person of the action.It's as if he doesn't want to face to reality,the reality he has and the reality he wants to have,but he's afraid to accept fully.And,on the other hand,the positions change-loving and be loved-it's fairly clear,always with Ennis in the middle.Any other idea?.

In both scenes, we indedd see his reluctance to see/acknowledge who he is holding (in one scene) who is holding him (in the other scene.)  The symmeties and asymmetries are quite fascinating.

I think you have struck a rich vein here.  There is so much symbolism and meaning one can draw from this comparison, whether it is intentional or not...

[myprivatejack]

In both scenes, we indedd see his reluctance to see/acknowledge who he is holding (in one scene) who is holding him (in the other scene.)  The symmeties and asymmetries are quite fascinating.

I think you have struck a rich vein here.  There is so much symbolism and meaning one can draw from this comparison, whether it is intentional or not...

I do think it's intentional,like a way to show us that Ennis could never be himself,even with the persons he loved and who loved him the most-or precisely for this reason...-.

[tpe]

I do think it's intentional,like a way to show us that Ennis could never be himself,even with the persons he loved and who loved him the most-or precisely for this reason...-.

Yes, it is too perfect to be just coincidental.  We see the subtle hand of the director here.  The funny thing is that any connection drawn by a viewer is probably subliminal.  It works just below our consciousness. 

[jackster]

. . . Ennis turns his back to Alma, as if he didn't want to see her, maybe because he's believing that is Jack who is holding him. . . in the second, it's Ennis who is holding Jack, . .

Great observation MPJ! And great comments too. You can bet that with Ang Lee there are no "accidents", this was certainly intentional and one more example of his complete mastery and understanding of the tale he was telling on film.

[myprivatejack]

Great observation MPJ! And great comments too. You can bet that with Ang Lee there are no "accidents", this was certainly intentional and one more example of his complete mastery and understanding of the tale he was telling on film.

Thank you,Jackster ¡ I guess he knows why every scene,gesture or even position is this,and no other...And I also guess that these similar scenes are a way of showing the double Ennis negation: denying his social relationship(what he MUST do) but denying also his personal relationship(what he WANTED to do).

[vedrana]

Great observation MPJ! And great comments too. You can bet that with Ang Lee there are no "accidents", this was certainly intentional and one more example of his complete mastery and understanding of the tale he was telling on film.

Thank you,Jackster ¡ I guess he knows why every scene,gesture or even position is this,and no other...And I also guess that these similar scenes are a way of showing the double Ennis negation: denying his social relationship(what he MUST do) but denying also his personal relationship(what he WANTED to do).

I agree! No "accidental" similarities! And MPJ made a great parallel here! 

[tpe]

Thank you,Jackster ¡ I guess he knows why every scene,gesture or even position is this,and no other...And I also guess that these similar scenes are a way of showing the double Ennis negation: denying his social relationship(what he MUST do) but denying also his personal relationship(what he WANTED to do).

Again, a very good point.

[myprivatejack]

Again, a very good point.

Thank you so much again,Thomas ¡  I guess that,although Ennis complexity,is easier to understand him than it seems at a first glance; everything can be sum up by saying "fear and denial of himself".

[tpe]

Thank you so much again,Thomas ¡  I guess that,although Ennis complexity,is easier to understand him than it seems at a first glance; everything can be sum up by saying "fear and denial of himself".

Yes, in certain fundamental aspects, Ennis was relatively "simple."  It was his inability to appreciate the repercussions of his actions that made things more complicated than it seemed, IMO.

[myprivatejack]

Yes, in certain fundamental aspects, Ennis was relatively "simple."  It was his inability to appreciate the repercussions of his actions that made things more complicated than it seemed, IMO.

But that someone can be defined easily,doesn't mean that the consequences of this apparently simplicity,can't be very complicated,for himself and for the others who surround him.

[tpe]

But that someone can be defined easily,doesn't mean that the consequences of this apparently simplicity,can't be very complicated,for himself and for the others who surround him.

Yes, I agree.  The refusal to see implicit complexities (as simple people are apt to do sometimes) can in itself lead to improbable complexities.  This was certainly true in the case of Ennis.

[jackster]

 

MPJ:
In looking again at these two scenes you posted I am struck by the incredible similarity in the facial expressions of Ennis & Jack (Heath & Jake). Both dreamin', in an almost expressionless trance, like they have left their bodies, dreamin' of a world where they are being loved, where they are wanted. Their eyes, lips, even cheeks seem to evoke exactly the same reverie and emotion here. What an amazing pair.

[myprivatejack]

MPJ:
In looking again at these two scenes you posted I am struck by the incredible similarity in the facial expressions of Ennis & Jack (Heath & Jake). Both dreamin', in an almost expressionless trance, like they have left their bodies, dreamin' of a world where they are being loved, where they are wanted. Their eyes, lips, even cheeks seem to evoke exactly the same reverie and emotion here. What an amazing pair.

Yes,I can also see this similarity between Ennis and Jack in these two scenes; as a matter of fact,the two of them are,as you say,dreaming in their perfect world,living each second of the sensation of being loved-Jack living it at the present,Ennis as a far memory that he believed wasn't going to repeat-.And I like this "no similar similarity" of Ennis playing the active and the passive role in each scene,but always not feeling completely satisfied with what he's got...

[vedrana]

Ennis and Alma also have the same expression in these two scenes, don't you think? Holding someone they love.

[tpe]

MPJ:
In looking again at these two scenes you posted I am struck by the incredible similarity in the facial expressions of Ennis & Jack (Heath & Jake). Both dreamin', in an almost expressionless trance, like they have left their bodies, dreamin' of a world where they are being loved, where they are wanted. Their eyes, lips, even cheeks seem to evoke exactly the same reverie and emotion here. What an amazing pair.

They seem to be completely outside of themselves -- and yes, there are a few other instances where the look tells us all: that one was dreaming of the other.

[tpe]

Ennis and Alma also have the same expression in these two scenes, don't you think? Holding someone they love.

I think so too -- a look of genuine affection.

[myprivatejack]

Ennis and Alma also have the same expression in these two scenes, don't you think? Holding someone they love.

Yes,it's so...Even if in each case,who holds in one and is held in the other one-the same person-is not so sure of his feelings and/or doesn't want to be sure...

[vedrana]

Yes,it's so...Even if in each case,who holds in one and is held in the other one-the same person-is not so sure of his feelings and/or doesn't want to be sure...

Maybe, afraid to be sure, cos the truth would be difficult to handle.

[tpe]

Yes,it's so...Even if in each case,who holds in one and is held in the other one-the same person-is not so sure of his feelings and/or doesn't want to be sure...

I think that in both instances, Ennis was thinking about Jack.    With Alma, he looked like a man distracted from his own inner thoughts...

[myprivatejack]

I think that in both instances, Ennis was thinking about Jack.    With Alma, he looked like a man distracted from his own inner thoughts...

I agree,but;could it be that with Alma,Ennis was thinking about Jack-the one whom he held,the one he loved-but with Jack himself he was thinking in Alma-the one who held him,the one who loved hi too-of self-defense against his "queerness"?It's just a thought that has appeared in my mind suddenly...What's your opinion?.

[vedrana]

I agree,but;could it be that with Alma,Ennis was thinking about Jack-the one whom he held,the one he loved-but with Jack himself he was thinking in Alma-the one who held him,the one who loved hi too-of self-defense against his "queerness"?It's just a thought that has appeared in my mind suddenly...What's your opinion?.

Hm... Alma held him after he held Jack, so it would be difficult for him to think about Alma who had held him...

But even during DE Ennis had a wish that Jack was a woman, not a man that he was holding, Ennis could never think of anyone else in his arms than Jack... well, here I go again! Never see them apart! 

[tpe]

I agree,but;could it be that with Alma,Ennis was thinking about Jack-the one whom he held,the one he loved-but with Jack himself he was thinking in Alma-the one who held him,the one who loved hi too-of self-defense against his "queerness"?It's just a thought that has appeared in my mind suddenly...What's your opinion?.

Well, I thought that Ennis was thinking of Jack all the time. 

It is interesting that in the DE, Ennis takes the part of his mother -- taking Jack as the young Ennis being put to bed.  I find this an interesting transposition...

[vedrana]

Well, I thought that Ennis was thinking of Jack all the time. 

It is interesting that in the DE, Ennis takes the part of his mother -- taking Jack as the young Ennis being put to bed.  I find this an interesting transposition...

I believe that both Ennis' and Jack's misfortune childhood was one of the reasons why they connection/chemistry was so powerful. The DE showed all their childhood hunger for love - Ennis' showed it through seeing Jack as himself as a boy, and Jack showed it by keeping the DE as a most powerful memory from Brokeback!

[myprivatejack]

I believe that both Ennis' and Jack's misfortune childhood was one of the reasons why they connection/chemistry was so powerful. The DE showed all their childhood hunger for love - Ennis' showed it through seeing Jack as himself as a boy, and Jack showed it by keeping the DE as a most powerful memory from Brokeback!

Yes,I agree in that their respective lack of a real affection-in spite of Mrs.Twist love for his son,his father was a good and effective counter balance-was one of the main reasons for being better and more quickly connected as a friends in a first moment.In DE scene we see how Ennis treats Jack with the love and care his mother had for him when he was a child; he wanted in that moment to pass his love from a person of his past-his mother-to a person of his present-Jack-.And Jack receives this behaviour keeping it in his heart during the rest of his life,because Ennis was then the only person who cares for him and loves him in a whole sense,not only the sexual one.