Topic: Two similar scenes (spoiler)

[ksxks]

Yes, I do agree that there is a parallel.  And there is yet a third that joins the two to the final resolution: the scene showing jack being murdered.

Yes, that is true, for the viewer, that those three go together.  But in the two I mentioned, we see Ennis's face seeing those things...

kathy

[ksxks]

I quite like the parallel in the Thanksgiving scenes, where Monroe is clearly head of the household and does the carving. Jack has to fight LD and assert hisposition, but ends up carving too. There's also the nice touch of Jack hacking away with a kitchen knife while Monroe wields his electric carving knife - for some reason that al;ways makes me smile. Men and their love of gadgets, I suppose.

The electric carving knift scene always made me chuckle because he stops doing it politely while the girls ask their dad to tell the bull (or bronc?) story and he tells it...then Monroe continues the noisy carving.  I don't know why, I laughed at that.

kathy

[tpe]

I see parallels among the gutted sheep, Earl in the ditch, Monroe and Alma's T'giving turkey with it's gutted cavity toward the camera, and the Black Hole that Jack walks into with the male prostitute in Mexico.   

How interesting.  Especially the bit about the dark dead-end alley that Jack and the hustler disappears into.  I had not thought of that...

[tpe]

All of them a version of the mouth of hell? Among the painted pieces of scenery in the inventory of an Elizabethan acting company  is "One Mouth of Hell" but I'm sure that one had flames in red and yellow around it.

Yes, I was thinking just now of the same thing: the maw of hell.

[tpe]

Yes, that is true, for the viewer, that those three go together.  But in the two I mentioned, we see Ennis's face seeing those things...

kathy

For some reason, I also draw similar parallels with Ennis's face in the shepp scene, the Earl scene, and the scene with Lureen, where Ennis envisions the murder of Jack (at the point when Ennis stares blankly as Lureen says "hello...hello..." on the other side of the line.)

[tpe]

The electric carving knift scene always made me chuckle because he stops doing it politely while the girls ask their dad to tell the bull (or bronc?) story and he tells it...then Monroe continues the noisy carving.  I don't know why, I laughed at that.

kathy

He just seemed so out of it all.  There is this family drama occuring in front of him in that Thanksgiving table -- the enthralled faces of the girls, Ennis's being deprecating and playful, followed by the hostile glances exchanged between him and Alma.  And yet, Monroe is absolutely oblivious to it all.  It just struck me as so incongruous.  His resuming the slicing of the turkey breaks the tension so effectively that we laugh...

[welshwitch]

He also seems such a self-important little Mr Middle America with his house and his pregnant wife - and not a clue what's gone on and is going on around him.

[manhattangirl]

I don't know if this belongs in this tread, so please bare with me:

The Thanksgiving scene with Alma and the Confrontation Scene,  both Alma and Jack seem to be pushing Ennis to his breaking point.  His ex-wife and his lover know exactly how to get to him, they don't speak to him in a way of discussing the problem or a situation, but pushes his buttons to get a reaction from him.  Ennis potential violence is shown  to  Alma, but with Jack its total surrender.  Do you think this was the only way they could to get something, anything out of him?

[aintfoolin]

 I feel it depends on how Ennis feels inside about each of these partners. IMO during the scene when Alma confronts Ennis at Thanksgiving, Alma is clearly getting under Ennis's skin, calling Jack out of his  name and alluding to what they do as "nasty". She is obviously holding a grudge against Jack for destroying her marriage and is playing her ace straight up. At the same time she opening a can of worms in Ennis himself, what he will not, cannot admit to himself and going years, back revealing her suspicions to him.  But he feels for Jack, his friend and lover and stands up for his honor in this confrontation with Alma. She was pushing all the wrong buttons.Too scary.

 With Jack, Ennis feels an emotional connection. Jack appeals to Ennis's sense of manhood that expresses his protective nature so anything Jack does or says is for both their benefit. For instance the scene in which Jack refuses to eat beans again and suggests shooting the sheep. Ennis compromises and goes for the elk. Jack had meat for dinner and breakfast. Problem solved. This becomes a pattern with Ennis. He gets mad at Jack but can't stay mad, as he finds out, Jack is uasally  pushing all the right buttons but makes Ennis think in a constructive , positive way and most of all he loves Jack deeply so he's more patient towards him.MO.

[aintfoolin]

Sorry if I'm

[tpe]

He also seems such a self-important little Mr Middle America with his house and his pregnant wife - and not a clue what's gone on and is going on around him.

Yes, I did sense a bit of quiet self-importance in his look -- especially after Ennis finished his tale and Monroe for a split second looked at Alma before resuming the carving.  I suppose this is similar to LDs looking down at Jack in the Thanksgiving scene with Jack.

[tpe]

I don't know if this belongs in this tread, so please bare with me:

The Thanksgiving scene with Alma and the Confrontation Scene,  both Alma and Jack seem to be pushing Ennis to his breaking point.  His ex-wife and his lover know exactly how to get to him, they don't speak to him in a way of discussing the problem or a situation, but pushes his buttons to get a reaction from him.  Ennis potential violence is shown  to  Alma, but with Jack its total surrender.  Do you think this was the only way they could to get something, anything out of him?

Now that you mentioned it, I do think that there is a similarity between these two scenes, in that Ennis is made to own up to the reality of the situation.  It's a less obvious similarity, I sense.  Nonetheless, it's not just the drama of each situation that seems to associate one with the other.  In both scenes, Ennis is forced to assess the question of who he really is.

[tpe]

In the "sobering moments" thread, I just realized that there is an implicit similarity between Jack's confrontation with Agguire in the summer of 64 and Ennis's Thanksgiving confrontation with Alma.  In a sense, both had the feel of an outing, even though there was no one else present...

[ksxks]

For some reason, I also draw similar parallels with Ennis's face in the shepp scene, the Earl scene, and the scene with Lureen, where Ennis envisions the murder of Jack (at the point when Ennis stares blankly as Lureen says "hello...hello..." on the other side of the line.)

Yes, of course.  Thank you, T.  Ennis "seeing" Jack's murder.  So those three are definitely a group.

kathy

[ksxks]

And interesting that Jack was "outed" so much sooner than Ennis was.  If Ennis had been outed sooner, I wonder if that might have pushed him to actually out himself to himself.

kathy

[tpe]

And interesting that Jack was "outed" so much sooner than Ennis was.  If Ennis had been outed sooner, I wonder if that might have pushed him to actually out himself to himself.

kathy

I was wondering about this myself.

Though not obvious, there is a similar flavor in the scene where Aguirre spys them getting physical up on BBM, and the scene when Alma sees them kissing during the reunion.  There is an element of concern as to what would happen next.  As it turns out, both Aguirre and Alma remain silent immediately after seeing them.

[manhattangirl]

I was wondering about this myself.

Though not obvious, there is a similar flavor in the scene where Aguirre spys them getting physical up on BBM, and the scene when Alma sees them kissing during the reunion.  There is an element of concern as to what would happen next.  As it turns out, both Aguirre and Alma remain silent immediately after seeing them.

No one at that time even wanted to recognize that homosexuality even existed, or speak of it .   It not suprising that Aguirre or Alma went no further.   Acquire just threw Jack out his office he's done with it.   Alma divorced the problem, why exposed the girls to their father's "nasty little secret",  what would Alma look like to society letting everyone know she married a "queer".   Less said the better.   

[aintfoolin]

Interestingly, it was Ennis who initiated both these encounters, the same Ennis who said" if this thing grabs ahold of us the wrong time ? the wrong place? we're dead." There's  is no wrong time or place where love is concerned, Only wrong people. Thank goodness these two had sense enough to keep their mouths shut about it , two more examples where the love Ennis fought against won out over his own philosophy.

[LuvJackNasty]

Yes, I did sense a bit of quiet self-importance in his look -- especially after Ennis finished his tale and Monroe for a split second looked at Alma before resuming the carving.  I suppose this is similar to LDs looking down at Jack in the Thanksgiving scene with Jack.

I never thought of it that way! Damn a year and a half later and something new to see. 

[ksxks]

I was wondering about this myself.

Though not obvious, there is a similar flavor in the scene where Aguirre spys them getting physical up on BBM, and the scene when Alma sees them kissing during the reunion.  There is an element of concern as to what would happen next.  As it turns out, both Aguirre and Alma remain silent immediately after seeing them.

Very interesting.  As storytelling goes, AP could have written it any number of ways.  But she chose for Ennis and Jack to be unaware of having been seen.  (Except for the next summer when Jack went to get work from Aguirre.)  It would have been a different story if they had had to deal with it right then and there.

kathy

[tpe]

Very interesting.  As storytelling goes, AP could have written it any number of ways.  But she chose for Ennis and Jack to be unaware of having been seen.  (Except for the next summer when Jack went to get work from Aguirre.)  It would have been a different story if they had had to deal with it right then and there.

kathy

Ennis does reach the same point when Alma finally confronts Ennis in the kitchen during the Thanksgiving episode. It is interesting to see how Jack reacted to Aguirre and how Ennis reacted to Alma.  The reactions are similar and dissimilar in a number of ways.  They are similar in that both really couldn't say anything upon realizing that they were found out.  The dissimilarity if that jack walked away, whereas Ennis became confrontational and threatening.

[tpe]

No one at that time even wanted to recognize that homosexuality even existed, or speak of it .   It not suprising that Aguirre or Alma went no further.   Acquire just threw Jack out his office he's done with it.   Alma divorced the problem, why exposed the girls to their father's "nasty little secret",  what would Alma look like to society letting everyone know she married a "queer".   Less said the better.   

Certainly both Agguire and Alma reacted in a way that a society unused to open homosexuality would do.  But I guess Aguirre really didn't have anything to lose, whereas Alma had her entire marriage at stake. 

I guess their reactions of silence can also be described as similar scenes, even if it was really much more serious in the case of Alma, no?

[ksxks]

Ennis does reach the same point when Alma finally confronts Ennis in the kitchen during the Thanksgiving episode. It is interesting to see how Jack reacted to Aguirre and how Ennis reacted to Alma.  The reactions are similar and dissimilar in a number of ways.  They are similar in that both really couldn't say anything upon realizing that they were found out.  The dissimilarity if that jack walked away, whereas Ennis became confrontational and threatening.

So interesting, that Jack walked away, Ennis became confrontational.  Perhaps that's why Jack was able to live as a gay men -- for the most part staying out of trouble -- whereas for Ennis, if anything came up, he wouldn't just walk away, he would amplify eveerything by starting a fight.  So maybe Jack wasn't so out there after all, but Ennis would have been.

kathy

[welshwitch]

And so ironic in that it was Jack who was eventually killed by homophobes while Ennis survived - or is this some sort of warning, or perhaps a comment on the times in which they lived?

[tpe]

So interesting, that Jack walked away, Ennis became confrontational.  Perhaps that's why Jack was able to live as a gay men -- for the most part staying out of trouble -- whereas for Ennis, if anything came up, he wouldn't just walk away, he would amplify eveerything by starting a fight.  So maybe Jack wasn't so out there after all, but Ennis would have been.

kathy

Yes, I think Jack was able to live through the dichotomy -- the double-life, shall we say.  Ennis never acknowledged the double life.  That is why the similarities in the two "outing" scenes are not so apparent -- because the reactions were so different, IMO.

[jackster]

Scenes with similar scoring and emotional shift:

There are four scenes where there is a similar and dramatic shift in the world Ennis knows, and in the Ennis that the world knows. It amazes me how cleverly Ang and Gustavo came together to achieve the realization of his shifting worldview with this haunting music that I call the “death theme” because it signifies the death of the past. At each of these points Ennis’s world changes forever and this musical scoring really reinforces this change.

I’ve listed these in the order they appear along with my interpretation of their meaning. This music is unfortunately NOT included in the standard issue CD soundtrack release, but it was included in a special CD released for the AAAS (Oscars) that had the entire Santaolalla score. I’ve indicated the given title of these pieces in ( ).

Haunting death theme repeated four times:
   1st   Death of straight Ennis – Ennis riding alone after FNIT decides to come to Jack SNIT (Horse Love)
   2nd   Death of innocence (Earl) – Young Ennis sees dead, castrated Earl (Flashback)
   3rd   Death of Jack – Ennis loses Jack, the postcard (Jack Deceased)
   4th   Death of closeted Ennis – Ennis finds the shirts, recognizes and exposes his love of Jack (Closet)


Is this how you folks read these scenes? I’d be interested to hear any other interpretations . . .

[tpe]

Thanks jackster.

In counterpoint to what you said, may I also note two scenes where you hear the starting notes of the BBM theme being used: the very beginning where we see the truck carrying Ennis to Signal, and the moment Ennis receives and reads the first postcard from Jack proir to the reunion.

In both cases, the music cues us to a NEW BEGINNING, no? 

[jackster]

. . . may I also note two scenes where you hear the starting notes of the BBM theme being used: the very beginning where we see the truck carrying Ennis to Signal, and the moment Ennis receives and reads the first postcard from Jack proir to the reunion.

In both cases, the music cues us to a NEW BEGINNING, no? 

Yes tpe, and in fact there are two other scenes where this "New Beginning" theme is used . . just before FNIT (now that's a NEW beginning!), this is called "Getting Drunk" on the score CD. Then later this theme is actually divided into two separate pieces, one with Ennis going to the Post Office which is titled "Post Office" and then again during the actual reunion which is labeled "Kiss" on the CD. Yeah, each one of these four scenes really stirs my soul as you can see a whole new chapter in Ennis's life begin with each turn.

[tamlynn]

Did anyone else notice at Thanksgiving when Ennis said, "I was no angel..." and the camera went to Alma, who shot him a look.  This i believe was the opening to her comments about Jack and their fight in the kitchen.  He was no angel. 

Can anyone figure out what she is yelling?  I finally picked up the words, i'll call Monroe... but she said something after that.

[tpe]

Yes tpe, and in fact there are two other scenes where this "New Beginning" theme is used . . just before FNIT (now that's a NEW beginning!), this is called "Getting Drunk" on the score CD. Then later this theme is actually divided into two separate pieces, one with Ennis going to the Post Office which is titled "Post Office" and then again during the actual reunion which is labeled "Kiss" on the CD. Yeah, each one of these four scenes really stirs my soul as you can see a whole new chapter in Ennis's life begin with each turn.

Yes, I though that there was more, so thank you for pointing out the additional scenes.  The music really gives us hints as to the what parallels the director wanted the audience to take note of.  It's not a simple thing about scenes looking VISUALLY the same -- but EMOTIONALLY the same.