Topic: NO MORE BEANS!!!: Laugh, but was this the start of Jack's seduction of Ennis?

[manhattangirl]

This might have been discuss before:

Remember the scene when Jack was on the horse, going back to the sheep.  He proclaim to Ennis, "No more beans".  Ennis was silent.  But when Ennis pick up the supplies and gave the little guy his shopping list, he wrote down soup, and told him "I'm sick of beans".  I couldn't help to think if Jack hadn't said anything Ennis would have accepted the supplies without a word spoken.

Jack ability to speak on what he felt, was something Ennis couldn't do. You see Ennis silent but taking in whatever Jack was saying, and Jack did have a lot to say.   

Jack was able to get into Ennis's head, asking him questions, and finding out more about him than anyone else, was this being curious or was it part of the seduction?

   

[jacks_key]

Good question.  It's like the scene where Jack mentions eating one of the sheep, so Ennis shoots an elk for him.  I think those are examples of Ennis wanting to please Jack, to do something nice for him.  I would say that's part of of a seduction.

Just my two cents.   

[LuvJackNasty]

Here are a few topics that have touched on this

When did they start to fall in love
http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=1479.msg19010#msg19010

Between shooting sheep and shooting Elk
http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=4476.msg135924#msg135924

When did you first see the hint of feelings between them
http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=3321.msg68163#msg68163

[manhattangirl]

  Thanks, Luvjacknasty


Thanks for the great threads.   I guess I kind of late in the game.   I wanted to know about the process of Jack's seduction, and Ennis slowly giving in to it.    Alma was in the picture already, (poor thing she didn't stand a chance), but it  was  Jack that uncork the bottled up emotions in Ennis.   What was Jack's opening to explore the possibility that Ennis would respond to him,  and what was it about Ennis, that made him respond to Jack? 

Thanks again



 

[irving]

This is all speculation..and it is ok to do that i guess.  Personally I do not like the idea..and I disagree with the idea that Jack "seduced" Ennis...sounds cheap and tawdry..just my opinion of course.  They both had different needs and desires stemming from their past and other circumstances.  The timing was just right and when it happened it just "happened".  That is the beauty of love..and no less so in this case.  Jack had a more open personality and was certainly interested in Ennis. But was he really out to 'seduce' him?  Maybe I am being naive here.  That's my two cents anyway...for what it's worth.

[tpe]

Thanks LJN.

As I had posted in previous threads, I do think Jack first showed interest when he first caught sight of Ennis outside Aguirre's trailer.  I do think the questions he posed to Ennis in several scenes were manifestations of this interest, but the part of "no more beans" was probably just exasperation on Jack's part over their diet.  But Ennis certainly had Jack in mind when he insisted that future rations would have soup and not beans...

 

[manhattangirl]

This is all speculation..and it is ok to do that i guess.  Personally I do not like the idea..and I disagree with the idea that Jack "seduced" Ennis...sounds cheap and tawdry..just my opinion of course.  They both had different needs and desires stemming from their past and other circumstances.  The timing was just right and when it happened it just "happened".  That is the beauty of love..and no less so in this case.  Jack had a more open personality and was certainly interested in Ennis. But was he really out to 'seduce' him?  Maybe I am being naive here.  That's my two cents anyway...for what it's worth.

No,  I totally understand where you're coming.  Seduction can take may forms,   I was just wondering how Jack was able to draw down Ennis's defenses.

[tizi17]

No,  I totally understand where you're coming.  Seduction can take may forms,   I was just wondering how Jack was able to draw down Ennis's defenses.

this is what i am thinking of very often..
we see ennis so closed up - in the beginning.. and afterwards we know what burden from childhood he has to carry. and jack managed to crack him open for him?
we read in the ss that both were glad to have found a friend where none was expected. this mutual respect and beginning friendship surely was a big first step. i sometimes have the impression that we do not see this enough in the film - the deepening of their relation as friends. we see ennis getting smoother and more relaxed, but not the way a.p. describes it.
sure enough FNIT is a sort of sexual need that a.p. described in her comment very well. but what came after, the fact that they fell in love - can - IMHO - only be explained by the way they had started to feel for each other in the fisrt few weeks up there on the mountain.

tizi

[tpe]

this is what i am thinking of very often..
we see ennis so closed up - in the beginning.. and afterwards we know what burden from childhood he has to carry. and jack managed to crack him open for him?
we read in the ss that both were glad to have found a friend where none was expected. this mutual respect and beginning friendship surely was a big first step. i sometimes have the impression that we do not see this enough in the film - the deepening of their relation as friends. we see ennis getting smoother and more relaxed, but not the way a.p. describes it.
sure enough FNIT is a sort of sexual need that a.p. described in her comment very well. but what came after, the fact that they fell in love - can - IMHO - only be explained by the way they had started to feel for each other in the fisrt few weeks up there on the mountain.

tizi

Well said.  There is indeed a distinction between physical attraction and their falling in love.

What made it work was that Jack (and to some extent, Ennis) chose to pursue friendship first.  It was through trust that Jack was able to get Ennis to love him.   The FNIT was in sone sense anti-climactic.  By then, they already knew what they wanted.

 

[manhattangirl]

this is what i am thinking of very often..
we see ennis so closed up - in the beginning.. and afterwards we know what burden from childhood he has to carry. and jack managed to crack him open for him?
we read in the ss that both were glad to have found a friend where none was expected. this mutual respect and beginning friendship surely was a big first step. i sometimes have the impression that we do not see this enough in the film - the deepening of their relation as friends. we see ennis getting smoother and more relaxed, but not the way a.p. describes it.
sure enough FNIT is a sort of sexual need that a.p. described in her comment very well. but what came after, the fact that they fell in love - can - IMHO - only be explained by the way they had started to feel for each other in the fisrt few weeks up there on the mountain.
tizi

But what got to me was Ennis's ease at setting the ground rules,  and his thinking that once the summer was over, they go their separate ways.   His lack of expericence set him up for what was coming, and he didn't even know it.   

[tpe]

But what got to me was Ennis's ease at setting the ground rules,  and his thinking that once the summer was over, they go their separate ways.   His lack of expericence set him up for what was coming, and he didn't even know it.   

The seduction of Ennis by Jack is made all the more interesting to watch precisely because of Ennis's inexpereince, no?  Indeed, his lack of experience set him up for what was coming, whether or not he was conscious of this...

[manhattangirl]

The seduction of Ennis by Jack is made all the more interesting to watch precisely because of Ennis's inexpereince, no?  Indeed, his lack of experience set him up for what was coming, whether or not he was conscious of this...

Exactly, but did you notice how Jack set the stage for the FNIT,  but was the one who submitted to Ennis, and submitted every time after that,  why did Jack give Ennis such power over him?  Like calling the shots of how this relationship would proceed, until Jack was fed up and the final confrontation happen?     

[tpe]

Exactly, but did you notice how Jack set the stage for the FNIT,  but was the one who submitted to Ennis, and submitted every time after that,  why did Jack give Ennis such power over him?  Like calling the shots of how this relationship would proceed, until Jack was fed up and the final confrontation happen?     

I am not sure if Jack was passive everytime after the FNIT.  One does think that there are certain set roles in these relationships, but there is surprising variety and flexibility in reality.  But to be sure, Ennis's taking the active role in the FNIT does not inconsistent with the mechanics of a seduction.  Traditionally/historically, it was common to speak of women seducing men, although men were assumed to be the active agent.  The same with homosexual relationships, where it is not unheard of that the seductor to take the passive role.

I suspected that Jack in the FNIT could have gone either way -- active or passive.  I think he wanted Ennis badly enough not to care.  I guess that was the point of the seduction.