Author Topic: Oprah's question: "Did Lureen know?"  (Read 128427 times)

Offline JT

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Re: Oprah's question: "Did Lureen know?"
« Reply #90 on: May 08, 2007, 07:54 PM »
Personally, I don't think she knew that Jack was gay until that phone call.  She knew she had a bad relationship with Jack, but that's not very uncommon considering that nearly half of marriages ended in a divorce.  I don't think that's a good indication that she knew.  She did know Jack has a fishing buddy and he doesn't want to dance with her, but that doesn't mean he wanted to dance with men either.  Did she know that Randall was gay too since he doesn't want to dance with Lashwan?  I just think she was embittered and being sarcastic when she ask Jack about not dancing with her.

Then came Ennis' phone call.  That changes everything.  Not the entire conversation but just one important sentense: "No ma'am, we was herding sheep up on Brokeback back in '63".  That's when she knew.  She already knew that Ennis was the fishing buddy when she pick up the phone, but no reaction there.

Offline tpe

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Re: Oprah's question: "Did Lureen know?"
« Reply #91 on: May 09, 2007, 08:28 AM »
Personally, I don't think she knew that Jack was gay until that phone call.  She knew she had a bad relationship with Jack, but that's not very uncommon considering that nearly half of marriages ended in a divorce.  I don't think that's a good indication that she knew.  She did know Jack has a fishing buddy and he doesn't want to dance with her, but that doesn't mean he wanted to dance with men either.  Did she know that Randall was gay too since he doesn't want to dance with Lashwan?  I just think she was embittered and being sarcastic when she ask Jack about not dancing with her.

Then came Ennis' phone call.  That changes everything.  Not the entire conversation but just one important sentense: "No ma'am, we was herding sheep up on Brokeback back in '63".  That's when she knew.  She already knew that Ennis was the fishing buddy when she pick up the phone, but no reaction there.

JT, so you think that as Lureen was convinced that Jack died in a regular accident while changing a flat?  Because if Jack did indeed die the way it was shown in the flashback, it would have been very hard not to ask questions.  This goes back to the question as to how Jack exactly died...


Offline JT

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Re: Oprah's question: "Did Lureen know?"
« Reply #92 on: May 09, 2007, 12:03 PM »
JT, so you think that as Lureen was convinced that Jack died in a regular accident while changing a flat?  Because if Jack did indeed die the way it was shown in the flashback, it would have been very hard not to ask questions.  This goes back to the question as to how Jack exactly died...



OT:  Nope.  The way I see it, Jack died in a gay bashing period.  If Lureen was the cause of Jack's demise, then it was because of her not liking Jack.  He was considered a "looser" by her standard and doesn't want to shame her family name.  She might have suspect something unusual when Randall step into the picture, but before that, I don't think she knew.  To answer your question, she definately knew that Jack was attacked, but I'm not necessary sure if she knew what the motive was.  Unlike Earl's, Jack's death was more a mystery.   ~) *o)

Offline tpe

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Re: Oprah's question: "Did Lureen know?"
« Reply #93 on: May 09, 2007, 12:52 PM »
OT:  Nope.  The way I see it, Jack died in a gay bashing period.  If Lureen was the cause of Jack's demise, then it was because of her not liking Jack.  He was considered a "looser" by her standard and doesn't want to shame her family name.  She might have suspect something unusual when Randall step into the picture, but before that, I don't think she knew.  To answer your question, she definately knew that Jack was attacked, but I'm not necessary sure if she knew what the motive was.  Unlike Earl's, Jack's death was more a mystery.   ~) *o)

OK, I see your point about Lureen.

Personally, I though that she she came to know about Jack's gayness dues to the circumstances surreounding the death (yes, I also believw Jack was attacked).  But this opinion is just as good as yours.  IN fact, there is no way of knowing for sure that she knew.  She could have been just hiding the truth that Jack was murdered, without really knowing why he was killed.  She must have thought it difficult to explain to others without a motive, so she invented the story about the flat tire.


Offline keren_b

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Re: Oprah's question: "Did Lureen know?"
« Reply #94 on: May 09, 2007, 01:07 PM »
From her flat tone and the way she recites the accident's story, I thought it was pretty clear that Lureen was lying. She sounded like she's repeating a well rehearsed story that she told people dozens of times. So my guess is that she knew Jack was murdered, and she probably knew why. Still, could be that she didn't make the connection and still related to Ennis as "the fishing buddy" - gays can have friends who are just friends and not lovers, right? She said "Jack used to keep his friends' phone numbers in his head", she talked in plural so to my understanding he had more friends apart from Ennis, at least as far as Lureen knew. So maybe although she knows Jack was gay, she still thinks of Ennis as just one of Jack's friends, and only after what he says about herding sheep together on Brokeback back in 63 she realizes what Ennis really was - the love of Jack's life.
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Offline tpe

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Re: Oprah's question: "Did Lureen know?"
« Reply #95 on: May 09, 2007, 03:54 PM »
From her flat tone and the way she recites the accident's story, I thought it was pretty clear that Lureen was lying. She sounded like she's repeating a well rehear**d story that she told people dozens of times. So my guess is that she knew Jack was murdered, and she probably knew why. Still, could be that she didn't make the connection and still related to Ennis as "the fishing buddy" - gays can have friends who are just friends and not lovers, right? She said "Jack used to keep his friends' phone numbers in his head", she talked in plural so to my understanding he had more friends apart from Ennis, at least as far as Lureen knew. So maybe although she knows Jack was gay, she still thinks of Ennis as just one of Jack's friends, and only after what he says about herding sheep together on Brokeback back in 63 she realizes what Ennis really was - the love of Jack's life.

This was what I also thought.  I assumed that she knew, but had not yet made the connection between Jack and Ennis.  And I thought that the story was a way of throwing people off the scent, and she initially thought that Ennis was a person who had to be diverted from knowing the truth.

But I agree that there are other possibilities to this: that she didn't know until she talked with Ennis, although I did think that it would have been hard for Lureen not to have speculated on certain reasons behind Jack's murder.


Had Jack already told her about the planned divorce, I wonder?




Offline jackster

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Re: Oprah's question: "Did Lureen know?"
« Reply #96 on: May 09, 2007, 04:45 PM »
This was what I also thought.  I assumed that she knew, but had not yet made the connection between Jack and Ennis.  And I thought that the story was a way of throwing people off the scent, and she initially thought that Ennis was a person who had to be diverted from knowing the truth.


Same here. Somewhat off topic but related, it always seemed to me that both Jack's wife and Jack's mother had similar moments of insight and enlightenment regarding Ennis' involvement with Jack as a result of Ennis' contact with both. When Ennis picks out the shirts from the closet, Jack's mother immediately knew he was the one in the "other" shirt. When Ennis spoke about being up on Brokeback in '63 Lureen knew why it was "Jack's favorite place".

Interesting that Ennis "outed" himself in both cases, possibly unknowningly. Would he have made the same moves, said the same words, had he known that the two women would immediately make the "he's Jack's lover" connection?
« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 08:33 AM by jackster »
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Offline lamusica

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Re: Oprah's question: "Did Lureen know?"
« Reply #97 on: May 09, 2007, 06:00 PM »
I still think some credence could be given to the scenarioi whereby Lureen is told how Jack dies ( the flat tire theory), believes it and tells it to others, whether that is the truth or not.  It is highly conceivable that she did not see Jack after he was killed.  There could have been a closed casket.  She might have really believed a story her father, lawyers, etc. fed her.  I'm not saying that's what happened, but I think it might have. 
     I am just not convinced that she knew what Ennis was to Jack.  Had she known before Jack died, I think she would have killed him (hyperbole).  Had she learned about it later, she would have been angry.  What I read in her face, eyes, tone of voice when speaking to Ennis on the phone is frustration and great disappointment. Maybe this speaks of Anne's acting ability.  She lets us see all sorts of possibilities within her performance.
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Offline tpe

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Re: Oprah's question: "Did Lureen know?"
« Reply #98 on: May 10, 2007, 08:15 AM »
Same here. Somewhat off topic but related, it always seemed to me that both Jack's wife and Jack's mother had similar moments of insight and enlightenment regarding Ennis' involvement with Jack as a result of Ennis' contact with both. When Ennis picks out the shirts from the closet, Jack's mother immediately knew he was the one in the "other" shirt. When Ennis spoke about being up on Brokeback in '63 Lureen knew why it was "Jack's favorite place". Interesting that Ennis "outed" himself in both cases, possibly unknowningly. Would he have made the same moves, said the same words, had he known that the two women would immediately make the he's "Jack's lover" connection?

Not really OT, jackster.  I think a lot can be understood in the way Lureen and Mrs. Twist came to an understanding of who Ennis was. 

I wonder if Ennis would have outed himself if he had a way of not doing it.  That is, I think in the case of Lureen, he probably wasn't even aware that he outed himself, or at least he looked like he was not aware.  As in the case of Jack's mom, I think he could not have hidden the connection, because he had to have the shirts, and Jack's mom would know at an instant the significance of his choice.

Wonderful correspondence, Jackster.  It gets me to think about this more...


Offline tpe

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Re: Oprah's question: "Did Lureen know?"
« Reply #99 on: May 10, 2007, 08:23 AM »
I still think some credence could be given to the scenarioi whereby Lureen is told how Jack dies ( the flat tire theory), believes it and tells it to others, whether that is the truth or not.  It is highly conceivable that she did not see Jack after he was killed.  There could have been a closed casket.  She might have really believed a story her father, lawyers, etc. fed her.  I'm not saying that's what happened, but I think it might have. 
     I am just not convinced that she knew what Ennis was to Jack.  Had she known before Jack died, I think she would have killed him (hyperbole).  Had she learned about it later, she would have been angry.  What I read in her face, eyes, tone of voice when speaking to Ennis on the phone is frustration and great disappointment. Maybe this speaks of Anne's acting ability.  She lets us see all sorts of possibilities within her performance.

You touch on something, lamusica , that is the reason why some people did think that Lureen had a hand in Jack's death (see the thread on this topic).  But I think knowledge of Jack's gayness, and not necessarily his relationship with Ennis, was qwhat Lureen had immediately after Jack's death, or perhaps even before.

But I do get your point: it is very difficult to finesse the question as to how much LUreen knew and at what point did she know.  It's all part of this great subtlety that is BBM.

That scene was Anne's greatest one in the entire movie, IMO.


Offline jackster

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Re: Oprah's question: "Did Lureen know?"
« Reply #100 on: May 10, 2007, 08:53 AM »
I wonder if Ennis would have outed himself if he had a way of not doing it.  That is, I think in the case of Lureen, he probably wasn't even aware that he outed himself, or at least he looked like he was not aware. 

Ennis' reply to her is so short here:

. . . No ma'am, we herded sheep on Brokeback one summer back in '63 . . .


You do have to wonder, Ennis certainly was thinkin' about what else they did up on Brokeback that summer and herdin' sheep certainly took the back seat to Jack and the sex. Seems like maybe he caught himself here talkin' too much, lettin' the cat out of the bag maybe. When she then says it was "his favorite place" Ennis turns the subject away, like "OK, enough about that" and moves on to Lighting Flat and his folks.

Seems like Lureen would have had MANY questions about this place that was her husbands favorite, where he wanted his ashes, but which she didn't even know where it was. Well, Lureen here's the guy that can tell you all about it - but that's it, end of subject. Seems like there is a "frission" (to quote AP) over the telephone wire between these two - an unspoken yet understood acknowledgement of territory that was to be left alone.
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Offline tpe

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Re: Oprah's question: "Did Lureen know?"
« Reply #101 on: May 10, 2007, 01:34 PM »
Ennis' reply to her is so short here:

. . . No ma'am, we herded sheep on Brokeback one summer back in '63 . . .


You do have to wonder, Ennis certainly was thinkin' about what else they did up on Brokeback that summer and herdin' sheep certainly took the back seat to Jack and the sex. Seems like maybe he caught himself here talkin' too much, lettin' the cat out of the bag maybe. When she then says it was "his favorite place" Ennis turns the subject away, like "OK, enough about that" and moves on to Lighting Flat and his folks.

Seems like Lureen would have had MANY questions about this place that was her husbands favorite, where he wanted his ashes, but which she didn't even know where it was. Well, Lureen here's the guy that can tell you all about it - but that's it, end of subject. Seems like there is a "frission" (to quote AP) over the telephone wire between these two - an unspoken yet understood acknowledgement of territory that was to be left alone.

Given that Ennis was probably in shock at the time, I would think it likely that he was not as cautious as he normally would be.  At least Lureen was perceptive enough to get the drift, even if Ennis perhaps didn't exactly mean to say as much.

"Frission" is the right word.  And yes, there was an understanding at the end of it, uncomfortable though it may have been for either of them.




Offline JT

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Re: Oprah's question: "Did Lureen know?"
« Reply #102 on: May 10, 2007, 07:37 PM »
Same here. Somewhat off topic but related, it always seemed to me that both Jack's wife and Jack's mother had similar moments of insight and enlightenment regarding Ennis' involvement with Jack as a result of Ennis' contact with both. When Ennis picks out the shirts from the closet, Jack's mother immediately knew he was the one in the "other" shirt. When Ennis spoke about being up on Brokeback in '63 Lureen knew why it was "Jack's favorite place".

Interesting that Ennis "outed" himself in both cases, possibly unknowningly. Would he have made the same moves, said the same words, had he known that the two women would immediately make the "he's Jack's lover" connection?

I think there were also some differences between Lureen and Mom Twist's insight on Ennis relationship with Jack's.  Jack didn't hesitate talking about Ennis in front of his parents.  He talked about bringing Ennis home and already brought his shirt home.  I'm sure Mom knows that the shirt wasn't Jack's and knew Ennis was more special than just a friend.  Mom Twist was way more accepting of Ennis.  With Lureen, Jack tried to hide his relationship with Ennis from her.  She knew the name "Ennis Del Mar" but don't know who he was.  Ennis was just a buddy.  So to her, it was more of a shock in the end.

Offline lamusica

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Re: Oprah's question: "Did Lureen know?"
« Reply #103 on: May 10, 2007, 08:18 PM »
Good point, JT.  Mom Twist was just happy that somebody besides herself loved her boy.  Lureen, on the other hand...........Jack knew to whom he could talk about Ennis.
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Offline keren_b

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Re: Oprah's question: "Did Lureen know?"
« Reply #104 on: May 11, 2007, 04:39 AM »
The reason why I thought that the moment Ennis told her about herding sheep with Jack on Brokeback was the moment of realization for Lureen was because of that little noise she made and the way her eyes suddenly filled with tears. It looked like she suddenly understood something, something that shocked her.

As for Jack's mom, I thought she knew because of the way she offered Ennis to go up to Jack's room. I always thought that it's something very personal to do, not something you would offer anyone. And the way she'd put her hand on Ennis's shoulder, it looked like she was the one comforting him and not the other way around. Maybe she knew what Ennis was going to find in Jack's room - she didn't look surpried at all when he came back down with the shirts. Almost like she expected that.
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Offline tpe

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Re: Oprah's question: "Did Lureen know?"
« Reply #105 on: May 11, 2007, 07:55 AM »
I think there were also some differences between Lureen and Mom Twist's insight on Ennis relationship with Jack's.  Jack didn't hesitate talking about Ennis in front of his parents.  He talked about bringing Ennis home and already brought his shirt home.  I'm sure Mom knows that the shirt wasn't Jack's and knew Ennis was more special than just a friend.  Mom Twist was way more accepting of Ennis.  With Lureen, Jack tried to hide his relationship with Ennis from her.  She knew the name "Ennis Del Mar" but don't know who he was.  Ennis was just a buddy.  So to her, it was more of a shock in the end.

Moreover, Lureen was probably too preoccupied with the business to listen or to care.  THis was not the case with Mrs. Twist, who was clearly devoted to both husband and son.   I wonder if Mrs. Twist and Lureen ever met?  Probably not.




Offline tpe

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Re: Oprah's question: "Did Lureen know?"
« Reply #106 on: May 11, 2007, 07:58 AM »
The reason why I thought that the moment Ennis told her about herding sheep with Jack on Brokeback was the moment of realization for Lureen was because of that little noise she made and the way her eyes suddenly filled with tears. It looked like she suddenly understood something, something that shocked her.

As for Jack's mom, I thought she knew because of the way she offered Ennis to go up to Jack's room. I always thought that it's something very personal to do, not something you would offer anyone. And the way she'd put her hand on Ennis's shoulder, it looked like she was the one comforting him and not the other way around. Maybe she knew what Ennis was going to find in Jack's room - she didn't look surpried at all when he came back down with the shirts. Almost like she expected that.

Yes, the noise Lureen emitted, and the shifting of the eyes indicate that she had just realized something, no?  Something that made her very uncomfortable, IMO.

For me, the indicator for Mrs. Twist knowing is the gentle nod of recognition she gave Ennis when he asked for the shirts -- as if she knew all along that he would find them.  She didn't even try to inspect what it was that Ennis selected...


Offline jackster

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Re: Oprah's question: "Did Lureen know?"
« Reply #107 on: May 11, 2007, 09:26 AM »
For me, the indicator for Mrs. Twist knowing is the gentle nod of recognition she gave Ennis when he asked for the shirts -- as if she knew all along that he would find them.

My reading of this scene too, tpe. When she makes that little nod and cracks that little smile or grin (another trait that Jack showed on occasion) in my mind I see her thoughts as "Yep, he's the one, I thought so". She knew there was only one other person in the world who would recognize the shirt that her son Jack treasured, it's original owner. One of the beauties of this scene is that there are virtually no words, Ennis doesn't ask, he just pleads with his eyes while clutching the rolled up bundle, she just nods back. Fantastic ability here between these two gifted individuals (Heath & Roberta).

The fact that Ennis is in effect "coming out" to her at this moment, acknowledging to her that there was something really deep here symbolized by this sharing of a piece of personal clothing makes this scene really gripping to me. He knew what his taking the shirts from the closet would reveal and yet he did it, his transformation had begun there.
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Offline tpe

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Re: Oprah's question: "Did Lureen know?"
« Reply #108 on: May 11, 2007, 12:10 PM »
My reading of this scene too, tpe. When she makes that little nod and cracks that little smile or grin (another trait that Jack showed on occasion) in my mind I see her thoughts as "Yep, he's the one, I thought so". She knew there was only one other person in the world who would recognize the shirt that her son Jack treasured, it's original owner. One of the beauties of this scene is that there are virtually no words, Ennis doesn't ask, he just pleads with his eyes while clutching the rolled up bundle, she just nods back. Fantastic ability here between these two gifted individuals (Heath & Roberta).

The fact that Ennis is in effect "coming out" to her at this moment, acknowledging to her that there was something really deep here symbolized by this sharing of a piece of personal clothing makes this scene really gripping to me. He knew what his taking the shirts from the closet would reveal and yet he did it, his transformation had begun there.

It's amazing how much seems to be said with that simple nod.

And with Lureen, those little sounds mask something unpleasant deep down, no?

The reactions to Ennis's coming out to them constrast effectively.  Where there was empathy and understanding in one, there was hypocrisy and suppression in the other.  Lurren was clearly "squirming" uncomfortably when the truth dawned on her.  You can tell that she wanted out as quickly as possible.  With Jack's mom, there was that smile of acknowledgment -- so patient and so comforting. And lastly, there was the invitation to come again...

Offline jackster

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Re: Oprah's question: "Did Lureen know?"
« Reply #109 on: May 11, 2007, 12:15 PM »
And lastly, there was the invitation to come again...

Yes, quite a contrast to Lureen's almost slamming down the telephone without even a "goodbye". Love vs. contempt.
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Offline tpe

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Re: Oprah's question: "Did Lureen know?"
« Reply #110 on: May 11, 2007, 12:19 PM »
Yes, quite a contrast to Lureen's almost slamming down the telephone without even a "goodbye". Love vs. contempt.

But Lureen crtainly got what she deserved.  If she was hurt or if she felt humiliated, she can only blame herself.  Not that she could have changed things between her and Jack, but she could have realized/faced the truth sooner, and perhaps arranged for a separate piece.  She was no longer in love with Jack in the end anyway, no? 

Offline jackster

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Re: Oprah's question: "Did Lureen know?"
« Reply #111 on: May 11, 2007, 12:54 PM »
She was no longer in love with Jack in the end anyway, no? 

Yeah. When she "discovered" (just then on the phone) that Ennis had been in the picture since '63 - before she knew Jack - she was probably also PO'd that she'd been led along all those years. Always amazed me that Jack never discussed this with her at all - in how many years? She didn't even know where BBM was. I guess as the trailer says "there are lies we we have to tell". Mrs. Twist on the other hand possibly knew about Jack's feelings since he was little. Mother's often do, no matter how hard you try and hide them.
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Offline keren_b

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Re: Oprah's question: "Did Lureen know?"
« Reply #112 on: May 11, 2007, 01:36 PM »
My reading of this scene too, tpe. When she makes that little nod and cracks that little smile or grin (another trait that Jack showed on occasion) in my mind I see her thoughts as "Yep, he's the one, I thought so". She knew there was only one other person in the world who would recognize the shirt that her son Jack treasured, it's original owner. One of the beauties of this scene is that there are virtually no words, Ennis doesn't ask, he just pleads with his eyes while clutching the rolled up bundle, she just nods back. Fantastic ability here between these two gifted individuals (Heath & Roberta).

The fact that Ennis is in effect "coming out" to her at this moment, acknowledging to her that there was something really deep here symbolized by this sharing of a piece of personal clothing makes this scene really gripping to me. He knew what his taking the shirts from the closet would reveal and yet he did it, his transformation had begun there.

Beautiful comment, jackster.
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Offline tpe

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Re: Oprah's question: "Did Lureen know?"
« Reply #113 on: May 11, 2007, 02:21 PM »
Yeah. When she "discovered" (just then on the phone) that Ennis had been in the picture since '63 - before she knew Jack - she was probably also PO'd that she'd been led along all those years. Always amazed me that Jack never discussed this with her at all - in how many years? She didn't even know where BBM was. I guess as the trailer says "there are lies we we have to tell". Mrs. Twist on the other hand possibly knew about Jack's feelings since he was little. Mother's often do, no matter how hard you try and hide them.

True intimacy was the advantage Mrs. Twist had over LUreen.  I guess Jack just stopped trying to communicate to her at some point in their marriage -- perhaps soon after the child was born.  The blue parka scene already showed them to be fairly didtant and a bit cold to each other.  The screenplay takes note of the kiss they shared in the end.  It was quite telling -- barely a kiss...


Offline welshwitch

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Re: Oprah's question: "Did Lureen know?"
« Reply #114 on: May 19, 2007, 02:15 PM »
It's become a marriage of convenience and I think based on a sort of version of "Don't ask, don't tell". It's obvious that Lureen wonders about this man Jack makes so much effort to see and wonders why he never appears in Childress - that his truck wouldn't make it that far is a bit unconvincing. I think Lureen sensed something but didn't want to find out; Jack was there, the father of her son, who would one day inherit the family business, Jack was doing a good job as a salesman, was there to accompany her to social events - why rock the boat? After all, whatever he was involved in he kept well away from her and from Texas, his parents were known to live far away so there was nothing odd in his going off to visit. You can often repress thoughts to the degree that you simply don't let them come to the top of your consciousness; when she had to talk to Ennis Lureen had to deal with things she would have preferred not to acknowledge.

Offline tpe

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Re: Oprah's question: "Did Lureen know?"
« Reply #115 on: May 21, 2007, 08:07 AM »
It's become a marriage of convenience and I think based on a sort of version of "Don't ask, don't tell". It's obvious that Lureen wonders about this man Jack makes so much effort to see and wonders why he never appears in Childress - that his truck wouldn't make it that far is a bit unconvincing. I think Lureen sensed something but didn't want to find out; Jack was there, the father of her son, who would one day inherit the family business, Jack was doing a good job as a salesman, was there to accompany her to social events - why rock the boat? After all, whatever he was involved in he kept well away from her and from Texas, his parents were known to live far away so there was nothing odd in his going off to visit. You can often repress thoughts to the degree that you simply don't let them come to the top of your consciousness; when she had to talk to Ennis Lureen had to deal with things she would have preferred not to acknowledge.

I do think Lureen didn't entirely believe Jack, but she had ceased to care in the later years.  Perhaps she even thought that Jack was carrying out affairs with other women out of state, and that Ennis was not a real person.  But she probably did not mind so long as Jack was discreet in his comings and goings and that he took care of his part of the family business.  It had certainly become a marriage of convenience.


Offline Mahogany

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Re: Oprah's question: "Did Lureen know?"
« Reply #116 on: Sep 23, 2014, 06:51 PM »
I guess Lureen didn't suspect about Jack and Ennis. She was too busy with money and business, although she liked Jack.
She thinks Ennis is just her husband's fishing or hunting buddy in Wyoming, where Jack was raised and probably Ennis was a childhood friend of Jack.

She really wouldn't say all those things about Brokeback Mountain and the ashes if she suspect.

And the story she told about Jack's death, I really think Lureen wouldn't tell such a detailed story like that for someone she doesn't even know, if that story wasn't true. If she just wanted to lie or hide something, she would invent some short and simple story.

They found Jack already dead, nobody saw anything... why would they create a fake accident? They probably found Jack dead next to the truck and the rim of the tire next to him.

That's why I think Lureen knew nothing and Jack really died at the truck accident.
« Last Edit: Sep 28, 2014, 04:13 PM by Mahogany »

Offline bluemountainsky

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Re: Oprah's question: "Did Lureen know?"
« Reply #117 on: Sep 23, 2014, 07:46 PM »
I guess Lureen didn't suspect about Jack and Ennis or Jack and Randall. She was too busy with money and business, although she liked Jack.
She thinks Ennis is just her husband's fishing or hunting buddy in Wyoming, where Jack was raised and probably Ennis was a childhood friend of Jack.

She really wouldn't say all those things about Brokeback Mountain and the ashes if she suspect.

And the story she told about Jack's death, I really think Lureen wouldn't tell such a detailed story like that for someone she doesn't even know, if that story wasn't true. If she just wanted to lie or hide something, she would invent some short and simple story.

They found Jack already dead, nobody saw anything... why would they create a fake accident? They probably found Jack dead next to the truck and the rim of the tire next to him.

That's why I think Lureen knew nothing and Jack really died at the truck accident.

Hmm...I agree with what you said about her not knowing when Jack was alive...I think she was too focused on her business, and not very focused enough on her marriage to realize that it was a sham. Also, I guess Jack was a lot more careful about hiding it than Ennis, ironically. I think Lureen was smart enough to figure it out if Jack gave any hints, but it doesn't look like he did. Perhaps Lureen's father suspected that Jack was gay. I say this because of what he said during the Thanksgiving scene with their son Bobby. "You want your son to be a man, don't you?"...it seemed like a jab at Jack, and Lureen's father stopped just short of calling him a queer right there. Perhaps Lureen's father tried to discuss with Lureen his suspicions about Jack, but she just brushed it off and didn't really think about it. I also think about the beginning when Jack was more obvious...before he met Lureen. They lived in a small town and those guys at the bar when Jack flirted with the rodeo clown, they obviously knew then that he is gay. So maybe they talked about it to other people, and that is how Lureen's father would have found out early on. I do believe he suspected.

 However, I disagree with the other part. I believe she found out the truth about Jack after his death, which I also believe he was murdered, and Lureen knew. There are many hints that the story she gives Ennis is false. The tone of her voice, how the story sounds like she'd practiced it, and also the biggest clue of all is how she starts to fight back tears at the end when she finally realizes who Ennis is. I think the cops told Lureen that Jack was beaten to death in a hate crime, and that is when she finally found out. She felt embarassed that her marriage was a sham the whole time, and so she made up the story about the accident. When Ennis first calls her, she did not know who he was. I don't think she ever really thought he existed! All she knew was that Jack had a friend he would go visit a few times a year, a friend in Wyoming. She knew that Jack was born in Wyoming, and that his parents lived there, and remember what she tells Ennis when he tells her about Brokeback Mountain? "Oh, so it's a real place? I thought it was imaginary, where bluebirds sing and whiskey springs." Over the years, she realized Jack was a big dreamer, so she doubted if this place was even real, and if Ennis was even real either. Maybe she believed that every time Jack told her he was going to visit his friend, he was actually just going to visit his parents. But then Jack was murdered, and the police told her, and so she found out that he was gay...then when Ennis calls she figures it out.

She realizes that Ennis is Jack's lover...the one he's been seeing all those years...the real love of his life. That is why you can see the tears starting, and she's trying to hide her anger and pain. As for why she made up the story...I do think it was a story she made up for all her friends and people in her town to hear, and when Ennis called, not knowing who he was at first (or thinking he was just another friend of Jack's), told him the same contrived story. When she realizes that he was Jack's lover at the end, she probably felt bad about lying to him but also maybe anger towards him...because he was the person Jack loved and not her, her marriage was a lie. And the police would know if he died from a tire rim or being beaten, because injuries from a deliberate beating would obviously be different from a tire rim accidentally hitting him in the face.
"I'm not expecting to grow flowers in the desert
But I can live and breathe and see the sun in wintertime;
In a big country, dreams stay with you
Like a lover's voice fires the mountainside."