Author Topic: Oprah's question: "Did Lureen know?" (Read 125713 times)

Cowboy Cody · « **Reply #30 on:** Feb 07, 2006, 03:59 PM »

And if she didn't tell them the truth, a pox on her. I think know, I wonder if that's yet another reason why Jack's mom asked Ennis to come back and visit again, to help her understand what happened and why.

chameau · « **Reply #31 on:** Feb 07, 2006, 07:19 PM »

Just came back from a BBM viewing.

During this phone call with Ennis, she realized the fishing buddy was from before her wedding, when Ennis mentioned about them co-working on BBM in 1963. She kind of realized her husband cheated on her with another man for years. Just the way she hung up the phone at the very end of the scene.

This is my personal analysis BTW.

Toadily · « **Reply #32 on:** Feb 07, 2006, 07:24 PM »

That's what I think too. She knew, like the pieces coming together.

Cowboy Cody · « **Reply #33 on:** Feb 07, 2006, 07:41 PM »

I think it hit home, because right before the tears well up, then she clams up tight as a drum, almost grits it out through her teeth.

jason · « **Reply #34 on:** Mar 17, 2006, 01:56 AM »

Quote from: Cowboy Cody on Feb 06, 2006, 08:49 PM

Makes me wonder if she really told Jack's parents the truth. I think she did because of the fact that his father seemed so bitter and his mother silent, until she sees Ennis.

OMG, Cody, I think you may be right. This is an obvious reason (assuming per everyone on this thread, that Lureen knew) why Mr T is so bitter and twisted in that scene. He's horrible. I never thought of an actual discussion/chat/exchange going on between Lightning Flat and Childress. Yes, rings true, quite apart from anything else going on his mind.

Twist Sr and Aguirre embody homophobic malice to me ...

Astroboy108 · « **Reply #35 on:** Mar 19, 2006, 03:59 PM »

Personally, I feel that Lureen always suspected something was up with Jack for many years, but she stopped caring about it one way or the other when she finally accepted that her marriage was a failure, and she focused her attention on business and working for her father. Then later, after Jack ( I believe) was murdered, and she was told why, she started to put the pieces together, but still not yet the full picture.
The full picture comes into her mind when Ennis calls about Jack's death, and you see the transformation on her face when she's talking to Ennis on the phone. Ennis mentions Brokeback Mountain and Lureen thinks "Oh God, THIS is the man who affected Jack so deeply!"
Then she coldly states (while at the same time being flooded with a full understanding of Jack's secret life), that Jack died due to a blown tire, and she sticks to the bogus cover story, which she has told many times previously.
Her husband is dead. Her anger and pain is suffused with confusing sympathy AND resentment for Ennis when suggesting he contact Jack's parents. They know about Jack from her, and they've had time to proccess it by the time Ennis get's to their house and each parent has come to a different way of dealing with it. They loved their son and this is the man their son loved. Their son is dead. What now is to be gained by not allowing Ennis consideration, empathy and attempted understanding?

aimi15 · « **Reply #36 on:** Mar 19, 2006, 04:17 PM »

I'm having difficulty in deciding whether Lureen deserves more credit than i have previously given her. I wonder if i was in Lureen shoes and realising Ennis was Jack's love if i would have reacted the same. Why didn't she shout at Ennis 'it's your fault this happened to him! Why didn't you just leave him alone?!' Instead she recited the tire iron story - perhaps trying to protect Ennis from the horrible truth? I don't know. Any ideas would be appreciated as this is one aspect of the story i just can't find resolution to.

christie wood · « **Reply #37 on:** Mar 19, 2006, 05:35 PM »

Quote from: aimi15 on Mar 19, 2006, 04:17 PM

I'm having difficulty in deciding whether Lureen deserves more credit than i have previously given her. I wonder if i was in Lureen shoes and realising Ennis was Jack's love if i would have reacted the same. Why didn't she shout at Ennis 'it's your fault this happened to him! Why didn't you just leave him alone?!' Instead she recited the tire iron story - perhaps trying to protect Ennis from the horrible truth? I don't know. Any ideas would be appreciated as this is one aspect of the story i just can't find resolution to.

Aimi, I'm the same. I've not been able to decide if she knew or not. It's not clear in the short story either, and every time I see the film and watch that scene, I'm no nearer to a definite conclusion. The only thing that sways me in the direction of her knowing is the way she recites the explanation of Jack's death...she takes a deep breath just before talking, and then reels off the details in a cold, unemotional way. And then of course we have the interspersed scene of Jack being beaten up, which leads us to believe that she's lying. But I still don't know.

The very first time I saw the film, I was deeply affected by the part where Ennis tells Lureen that Jack and he had herded sheep on Brokeback, and that's why it was so special to him - there is a pause, and a catch in her breathe, as if she's just been shot - something has just clicked in her mind and she sees things so clearly now. But it's still left unclear and unanswered.

Sorry, I didn't help much with this post, did I? :-[

aimi15 · « **Reply #38 on:** Mar 19, 2006, 05:41 PM »

Christie, sometimes it just helps knowing that someone is struggling to find the same answers as you. I think Anne deserves full credit for the telephone performance alone - especially as it is such a close up shot. There is no way to hide any false sentiment or halfhearted acting - she nails it. Those little noises and particularly the tears, the way they don't actually fall you just see them filling her eyes, its a tremendous performance. Its the only chink in Lureens armour we actually get to see - and its such an intense moment when it happens xx

christie wood · « **Reply #39 on:** Mar 19, 2006, 05:46 PM »

I agree with you about her performance I think she portrays so many feelings here and it must be so hard to do when a camera is shoved up so close to your face! But she did it and it was the only time you saw her as a person and not as a businesswoman too busy making deals and money to deal with her marriage and relationship with a man who was in love with someone else

aimi15 · « **Reply #40 on:** Mar 19, 2006, 05:50 PM »

Quote from: christie wood on Mar 19, 2006, 05:46 PM

I agree with you about her performance I think she portrays so many feelings here and it must be so hard to do when a camera is shoved up so close to your face! But she did it and it was the only time you saw her as a person and not as a businesswoman too busy making deals and money to deal with her marriage and relationship with a man who was in love with someone else

O/T i know but NICE avatar Christie - yummy

christie wood · « **Reply #41 on:** Mar 19, 2006, 06:21 PM »

awwww thanks aimi! i like it lots and i like heath lots too in case you hadnt realised that!

just sent you a pm please answer quick!

sam · « **Reply #42 on:** Mar 21, 2006, 07:32 PM »

In an interview over the film, actor Jake Gyllenhaal (who plays Jack Twist) says this about whether Lureen (played by Anne Hathaway) "knows" or not:

Quote

"I walked all those scenes with Anne thinking she knows," reveals Gyllenhaal. "I never was hiding anything from her as actor. I just thought ‘oh we both know, I'm going off to fishing she knows what I am going to do. How could she not?’ I think Heath's whole thing was hiding and hiding and hiding and hiding and hiding."

Very revealing, I thought!

Here's something I wrote earlier about my views on Lureen...(written before I read what Gyllenhaal says in his interview...)
h++p://xsorbit30.com/users5/brokebackmountain/index.php?topic=405.30#msg30929

sam

Toadily · « **Reply #43 on:** Mar 21, 2006, 07:37 PM »

That is a great quote, your correct I think Jack was ready to tell Lureen and the world. Ennis never would.

jason · « **Reply #44 on:** May 08, 2006, 12:40 AM »

Quote from: sam on Mar 21, 2006, 07:32 PM

Here's something I wrote earlier about my views on Lureen...(written before I read what Gyllenhaal says in his interview...)
h++p://xsorbit30.com/users5/brokebackmountain/index.php?topic=405.30#msg30929

sam

Wow Sam, what a tour de force in that other thread. Yes, yes. You make a good argument that Lureen put it all together correctly in her mind... just in the short space of the phone call. But I'm still a bit sceptical... to piece together so much in a short call. Maybe it's just that I can't get my mind round all the implications, shooting off in all directions!!

You're probably right. Just gotta get used to it ...

welshwitch · « **Reply #45 on:** May 12, 2006, 04:58 PM »

I wondered if Lureen had come to realise there was something about Jack after all the fishing trips and the fact that his buddy never came to Texas. Maybe there was gossip, eg from the older men who comment on his lack of ability as a bull-rider? And LD Newsome had his suspicions - all that stuff about "Boys should watch football. You want your son to grow up to be a man, don't you, daughter?" [ Hope I'm not misquoting - this is from memory.] So maybe he dropped hints, both to his Texan friends and to Lureen, or made pointed comments to/about Jack. So maybe either before or after he died she realised and Ennis's phone call brought it all back after she'd been busy putting on an act to keep up the social appearance of having tragically lost her husband. And maybe she was by then beyond being hurt any more by what had happened, hence the comment about the ashes?

sam · « **Reply #46 on:** May 13, 2006, 01:53 AM »

This was a great "mystery" to me too after seeing the movie for the very first time...(<---like WAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaayyy back then! Ha, ha, ha!

Since I bought the dvd, I think I must have watched it about 50 times by now....! :o

)

Aaaaaaaaaaaany-waaaaaaaaays....it bothered me to no end, so I did some intensive research on this particular subject, reading and listening to everything that I could find on the internet about it. And it's curious to see, that while the views differ amongst the general (theatre) 'viewers' of the film (including a good number of the film critics!), every single one of the people involved in the actual MAKING of the movie, ranging from Ang Lee, Anne Hathaway, McMurtry and Ossana, Jake Gyllenhaal, Annie Proulx etc. etc.~~ all the way down the ladder including make-up men, set dressers etc. all believe that Lureen knows. This is what I could find.

Funny though as: no one actually dares to come right out and say: "Jack was murdered"...everyone always just says something like: "It is IN MY BELIEF, rather apparent that Lureen knows..."

After doing this research, my heart was stilled, and I was finally in peace again. I personally, decided that the viewpoints from the persons involved with the actual making of the movie, held more weight for me than the opinions of the few "others". (They lived with, studied meticulously and worked with Proulx's material for a long time while putting the film together~needless to say: much, much longer than I had.) So I chose to accept and embrace their professional viewpoint as also my own. (It wasn't very difficult to do, as this was also my opinion anyway, even before I conducted my mini-search on the net & after having only seen the movie once...) But by doing this, I could finally watch the movie again, interpreting and understanding things in an appropriate way.

It is my opinion, that the movie was filmed in this way, not blatantly revealing by spelling it out in giant "black and white" letters, to simply stay inherently true to Annie Proulx's writing/short story (it was written this way...). And as is often the case in great literature, a small amount of ambiguity, the so-called: "leaving-it-up-to-the-reader's-discretion" is always a desirable thing. Very attractive from the reader's point of view, because it subtly binds him to the material, stealthily drawing him into the story, while graciously offering him his own personal "input" into the already existing piece of art...

McMurtry and Ossana's well-thought out and ingeniously written (perfect!) screenplay combined with Ang Lee's very skillfull manner of filming of this rather difficult aspect from Proulx's short story is truly marvelous. It is more than likely that in less capable hands, it might have delivered a film of mediocre quality. But they present us instead, with a truly great piece of cinema. The best movie I have seen in a loooooooooong time...!

And the proof of this is: merely the fact that this had taken a hold of me, enticing me so strongly in it's 'grip'...and actually FORCING me out of my usual laid-back and rather pitiful apathetic "couch potato" manner of film viewing ("Ok, ok, start the damn film...& lemme see what you got...while I lay back, suck up my diet coke through a straw and crunch on some mundane kernels of corn)~~making me actively do my research for a/the "truth".... And believe me bud, that is NOT an easy thing to do!

Whew! Even after like 50 viewings, I am still emotionally and physically drained at the end of the movie... I must be a major sufferer of PBM syndrome...

sam

louise x · « **Reply #47 on:** May 13, 2006, 06:08 AM »

first time i saw the film i wasnt sure wether lureen knew or not but after watching it several times more, you seem to get the impression that she did suspect something

mélisande · « **Reply #48 on:** May 13, 2006, 06:37 AM »

Ang Lee is genius indeed, that Lureen on the phone scene is so perfect, like every scene in this film.
(I think Lee wanted it that way, no tears, and looks like those are fake-tears(? like contact lenses) in her eyes?)

frances · « **Reply #49 on:** May 26, 2006, 07:11 PM »

Quote from: lubie-lou on May 13, 2006, 06:08 AM

first time i saw the film i wasnt sure wether lureen knew or not but after watching it several times more, you seem to get the impression that she did suspect something

Lureen lived in a sheltered world over-protected by her pushy, bigoted father, who had no positive feelings for Jack. He was the type of man who would have felt justified in having Jack killed (directly or indirectly) just to remove the stain from the family quilt. Lureen may have suspected the truth, but was so accustomed to living a lie that she didn't fight it.

Patriot1 · « **Reply #50 on:** May 26, 2006, 07:24 PM »

I would think that when you intentionally tell a lie, as Lureen did when she told Ennis how Jack died, that, in itself, means you know the truth. Not that you suspect the truth but that you know the truth and have the desire to hide it. Therefore you intentionally lie.

Or am I missing something here?

boo_boo · « **Reply #51 on:** May 26, 2006, 07:32 PM »

Quote from: Patriot1 on May 26, 2006, 07:24 PM

I would think that when you intentionally tell a lie, as Lureen did when she told Ennis how Jack died, that, in itself, means you know the truth. Not that you suspect the truth but that you know the truth and have the desire to hide it. Therefore you intentionally lie.

Or am I missing something here?

I agree with you. To lie about it, you have to KNOW about it.

frances · « **Reply #52 on:** May 26, 2006, 08:00 PM »

Quote from: Patriot1 on May 26, 2006, 07:24 PM

I would think that when you intentionally tell a lie, as Lureen did when she told Ennis how Jack died, that, in itself, means you know the truth. Not that you suspect the truth but that you know the truth and have the desire to hide it. Therefore you intentionally lie.

Or am I missing something here?

I'm not so sure she tells a lie.

She may have suspected the truth. She may not.

Moreover, there's a possibility (little possibility, of course) that what occurres to Jack is really an accident. My "to live a lie " is referred to her life with his husband.

Patriot1 · « **Reply #53 on:** May 26, 2006, 09:10 PM »

Quote from: frances on May 26, 2006, 08:00 PM

I'm not so sure she tells a lie.

I am VERY sure she was lying. Ang Lee said it was obvious she was lying to Ennis.

edgar · « **Reply #54 on:** May 26, 2006, 10:19 PM »

Not intending to be repetitive here, but to sort of sum up a (possible) consensus:

1. Lureen is lying: her rote repetition of "the official story" of Jack's death is unconvincing. Ennis immediately knows it's false. Possibly, she knows the truth: that Jack is murdered for being gay. Possibly, she just knows something is funny; maybe her dad is filtering information that she receives.

2. The little sounds she makes are not so much indications she is lying, as indications she is learning new things she never knew. She finds out that Ennis was a special person to Jack; maybe she realizes that he was the love of Jack's life.

3. The phone call is a very important moment in Ennis's development. Just the fact he's able to have a long phone conversation at all is something for him. Plus, he admits to someone he's never met that Jack meant a lot to him.

4. Give Lureen a little credit. She doesn't shut Ennis down, and she encourages him to contact Jack's parents. She encourages him to proceeding in "carrying out Jack's wishes." She shares with him that Jack had been drinking a lot.

$:-\\$

sam · « **Reply #55 on:** May 28, 2006, 09:01 AM »

Quote from: edgar on May 26, 2006, 10:19 PM

Not intending to be repetitive here, but to sort of sum up a (possible) consensus:

1. Lureen is lying: her rote repetition of "the official story" of Jack's death is unconvincing. Ennis immediately knows it's false. Possibly, she knows the truth: that Jack is murdered for being gay. Possibly, she just knows something is funny

2. The little sounds she makes are not so much indications she is lying, as indications she is learning new things she never knew. She finds out that Ennis was a special person to Jack; maybe she realizes that he was the love of Jack's life.

3. The phone call is a very important moment in Ennis's development. Just the fact he's able to have a long phone conversation at all is something for him. Plus, he admits to someone he's never met that Jack meant a lot to him.

4. Give Lureen a little credit. She doesn't shut Ennis down, and she encourages him to contact Jack's parents. She encourages him to proceeding in "carrying out Jack's wishes." She shares with him that Jack had been drinking a lot.

$:-\\$

I agree!! Her almost inaudible 'quips' and her eyes filling to the brim with tears certainly says alot.

I ESPECIALLY agree with edgar on #4. You hit the brass tack right on it's head with this one!

Hmmmm (off the subject here:)...but speaking of 'brass tacks': did you know that the same guy who previously bought the 2 shirts on the auction also paid $250,00 for the actual brass tack holding up the BM postcard on the back of Ennis' trailer/closet door? I read that he did. He also wanted the actual postcard, but it was not 'real'...just a 'photoshopped' prop. He, he!

sam

jesseanne21 · « **Reply #56 on:** Jun 12, 2006, 04:06 PM »

Did Lure en Know?

In the movie, Lureen gives Ennis "The Official Story" but she knew the truth. After Ennis tells her that he and Jack herded sheep up on Brokeback (before her marriage to Jack) she realizes who Ennis is and turns, to quote the story "as cold as snow."

She definitely knew.

welshwitch · « **Reply #57 on:** Jun 12, 2006, 04:28 PM »

And much earlier, when she made a fuss about his always going up to Wyoming and his fishing buddy never coming to Texas, surely she was saying something more than appears on the surface? The perfunctory kiss he gives her before he leaves suggests their marriage is pretty much empty and he clearly feels a great deal of commitment, if no more ( from her POV) to this unknown buddy.

edgar · « **Reply #58 on:** Jun 13, 2006, 12:04 AM »

Quote from: sam on May 28, 2006, 09:01 AM

Quote from: edgar on May 26, 2006, 10:19 PM
Not intending to be repetitive here, but to sort of sum up a (possible) consensus:

1. Lureen is lying: her rote repetition of "the official story" of Jack's death is unconvincing. Ennis immediately knows it's false. Possibly, she knows the truth: that Jack is murdered for being gay. Possibly, she just knows something is funny

2. The little sounds she makes are not so much indications she is lying, as indications she is learning new things she never knew. She finds out that Ennis was a special person to Jack; maybe she realizes that he was the love of Jack's life.

3. The phone call is a very important moment in Ennis's development. Just the fact he's able to have a long phone conversation at all is something for him. Plus, he admits to someone he's never met that Jack meant a lot to him.

4. Give Lureen a little credit. She doesn't shut Ennis down, and she encourages him to contact Jack's parents. She encourages him to proceeding in "carrying out Jack's wishes." She shares with him that Jack had been drinking a lot.

$:-\\$

I agree!! Her almost inaudible 'quips' and her eyes filling to the brim with tears certainly says alot.

I ESPECIALLY agree with edgar on #4. You hit the brass tack right on it's head with this one!

sam

Sam, sorry I didn't respond sooner. Thanks for the vote of confidence!

Lureen could have said, "I don't know where Jack's parents live." Or she could have just spoken a few words and hung up. I think she did pretty well, under the circumstances.

Toadily · « **Reply #59 on:** Jun 13, 2006, 01:54 PM »

Yeah I don't slight Lureen much, I mean she paid a big price for a youthful mistake of
being sort of predatory when finding a man. She was spoiled and would have fared
better if she let someone come to her. But still, yeah she could have hung up on Ennis
or not told him anything.