Author Topic: By the end of the film, has Ennis made any move toward self-acceptance?  (Read 33182 times)

Offline proulxfan

  • Alma
  • ****
  • Posts: 384
  • Gender: Male
  • " You know I ain't queer!"
I am really torn on this one. I want to believe that his love for Jack has brought him some understanding and self-acceptance, but I can't see any concrete evidence of it. There is no indication in the last scene that he has discussed this at all with Alma Jr., and she is the person closest to him. We learn that he hasn't seen her in some time. His world has collapsed to just his work and his trailer. Someone on another thread commented that he had to keep all the intense emotions arising from Jack's death completely to himself. He will take his secret to his grave. Since this is supposedly a story of "homophobia in the land of the pure and noble cowboy", this is consistent. But it's SUCH a bleak perspective. Anyone else have other viewpoints to help lighten this stone in my heart?
I have read tpe's analysis of the "Jack, I swear..." scene, and that pretty well answers this question-he has been changed profoundly within himself, but  at this late stage can't make any real outward changes in his situation. He is who he is. :'(
« Last Edit: Jan 29, 2006, 11:39 AM by proulxfan »
Jack: " Nice to know you, Ennis Del Mar."

tweric

  • Guest
I guess this is why this movie/short story haunts us so much, because no one really knows...

However, there are "hints" in the movie (Alma Jr. and the last window scene) and in the short story (Ennis isn't trapped in the dream of sadness, his past, he forces himself on present)

Just my thoughts.....

Offline lacy8753

  • Alma Jr.
  • **
  • Posts: 22
By the very end of the film he's totally depressed. He hasnt gotten anwyhere or accomplished anything. He doesnt even have Jack. It's doubtful that he'll ever be with another man (or woman for that matter)> He's paralyzed (just like "Brokeback mountain").

Offline manila_rocks

  • Lureen
  • ***
  • Posts: 133
Lucy I love that analogy!  "He's paralyzed..just like Brokeback Mountain".   Brilliant.   So true and I could not agree more.

Offline ethan

  • Administrator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 11247
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
I am really torn on this one. I want to believe that his love for Jack has brought him some understanding and self-acceptance, but I can't see any concrete evidence of it. There is no indication in the last scene that he has discussed this at all with Alma Jr., and she is the person closest to him. We learn that he hasn't seen her in some time. His world has collapsed to just his work and his trailer. Someone on another thread commented that he had to keep all the intense emotions arising from Jack's death completely to himself. He will take his secret to his grave. Since this is supposedly a story of "homophobia in the land of the pure and noble cowboy", this is consistent. But it's SUCH a bleak perspective. Anyone else have other viewpoints to help lighten this stone in my heart?
I have read tpe's analysis of the "Jack, I swear..." scene, and that pretty well answers this question-he has been changed profoundly within himself, but  at this late stage can't make any real outward changes in his situation. He is who he is. :'(

Very good question - one would hope that by acknowledging his love for Jack, Ennis would accept who he really is. Are you suggesting that Ennis would accept himself as gay?
Remembering Pierre (chameau) 1960-2015, a "Capricorn bro and crazy Frog Uncle from the North Pole." You are missed

Offline Allan

  • Alma Jr.
  • **
  • Posts: 75
  • Gender: Male
I think that there are two (possible) indicators of self realization (in the film)..

1) He agrees to go to Alma Jr.'s wedding, even drinks a toast to her... This is a hint to me that he's not going to shut out, or try to control, her love for him or his for her as he had done with Jack.  He goes with his heart here, not his head.  He won't let "work" stand in his way between himself and his cherished daughter.

2) In both story and film he has stinging tears in his eyes when he utters those words we love to talk about, "Jack, I swear..."  It's the tears that count.  He has always covered his emotions with stubbornness, violence, and alcohol.  The tears are a real emotional break through.  It's a horrible lesson to have learned, but I think the realization of has demi-life with Jack has finally hit home.

Offline ranchgal

  • Lureen
  • ***
  • Posts: 120
No I don't believe he has changed very much.

Of course he loved his family, and He had matured, so he would finally realize that going to the wedding is important.  I think that was his maturing view as a father, not necessarily with regard to his inner self.
I also believe he won't be with anyone else.
I do believe that if a woman came up to him, like Cassie did, and wanted him, he wouldn't resist her, but he wouldn't commit to her either---but a shack up would be completely in character for him, with a woman, though, never another guy.
But he will NEVER face any of the feelings that he had and lost when he lost Jack.
He will never be with or even entertain feelings about another man.   
He will keep drinking too much, and he will be alone more than he is ever with anyone else.
I don't see much happy future in his life.

Offline karind1

  • Jack
  • *****
  • Posts: 523
  • Gender: Female
 be sure to watch the charlie rose show interview with ang (and heath) but ang will answer some of your questions.  it is posted i believe in the news forum from ethan the link to the show
or actually here is link   Heath Ledger And Ang Lee Brokeback Mountain interview with Charlie Rose Video - 12/7/05

http://www.heathledgercentral.com/bbcharlieroseinterview.html

ang talks about ennis love at the end of movie

Offline lowpro

  • Cassie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
I think that there are two (possible) indicators of self realization (in the film)..

1) He agrees to go to Alma Jr.'s wedding, even drinks a toast to her... This is a hint to me that he's not going to shut out, or try to control, her love for him or his for her as he had done with Jack.  He goes with his heart here, not his head.  He won't let "work" stand in his way between himself and his cherished daughter.


I think he comes to the realization that Alma Jr. is a big part of the survival of his love.  He will quit his work if need be to attend the wedding.  Just like he told Jack later on that in the early days he could just quit his job for the rendezvous.  But not anymore.  But he's back at it again.  That shows a lot for Ennis.  And similarly when Alma Jr. forgets her sweater, Ennis is going to treat that like Jack and the shirts (the smelling of it as well).  His love for Alma Jr.(who absolutely adores him) will help sustain the much deeper love he had with Jack.  Love is forever.  :'( :( :)

lowpro
« Last Edit: Feb 09, 2006, 02:03 PM by lowpro »

Offline camom

  • Alma
  • ****
  • Posts: 221
I've known people very much like Ennis, so I'm probably a little pessimistic, but I don't see him changing much.  He comes to some realization of who he truly is at the end of the movie, but will that realization manifest itself into his life?  We see him making a small change (going to Jr.'s wedding), but I can't imagine him making a big turnaround.  I don't think he's capable of that much, but maybe just the small things will be enough to get him through.  If he can enjoy time with Jr. and Jenny, maybe with grandchildren, it would be enough for me.  But the shirts are still in the closet...   :'(

camom

Offline dalemidex

  • Alma
  • ****
  • Posts: 268
  • Gender: Male
  • Friend that's more words than you spoke in 2 weeks
With apologies to anyone who read this already on IMDB when I posted it weeks ago, here's why I think there is some hope for Ennis.  No guarantees, no certainties, but hope.

The other morning I woke up with the realization that there is hope for the future of Ennis. Funny how these things work in your mind without you knowing it, but that’s the power of this film.

The Ennis we see in the film is closed…tight…clenched…hard-packed…volatile.

With very few exceptions, the Ennis we see is all of these things day in and day out *except* for his time with Jack. It’s the only time he lets himself be anything else. And even up through his time with Cassie this hasn’t changed.

Jack, late in their relationship, says famously “You have no IDEA how bad it gets” in describing the longing, gnawing, consuming ache he felt. And for all that Ennis did feel, I still don't think he quite "got it" the way Jack did.  Not in quite the same way, because he wouldn’t let himself.

But after Jack’s death, we see that at last he does get it that way.

Now he understands because the opening created by Jack was still there even though Jack was no longer there to fill it. Ennis COULD have wrapped back up, turned further inside of himself and suffocated that part of himself. That part of himself that felt longing and loneliness. But he didn’t. He kept that open *on his own*. We see this in the final scene. Remember it opens with Ennis putting numbers on his mailbox. He’s clearly moved, and a good piece of time has passed since the news of Jack. Were Ennis to have closed back up and reverted to his old self, moving would have been the perfect time for the postcard and the shirts to have been packed away. Even thrown away. But he keeps them fully displayed in a place he goes often – hanging on the inside door of the closet.

Certainly this shows us that Ennis still loves Jack immensely, indeed this is a wrenching end to a remarkable story. Tearing up right here at work thinking about it. But it ALSO shows us that Ennis has kept his feelings of longing and loneliness with him rather than burying them away. He has been changed by all this in a way that probably would never have happened without the loss of Jack. His years with Jack opened him up so very much, yet still never enough for Ennis to really reconcile himself with everything. Not really. And so he could never really give Jack everything he needed.

But now in his loss, Ennis has *alone* allowed himself to open up further. To reconcile a bit more his outward self with his Brokeback self. He finally feels what Jack, a more emotionally developed man, felt all those years. And in this I believe there is hope. Before all of this Ennis wasn’t really able to emotionally “be” with someone. But this same opening, this same vulnerability that allows Ennis to feel the pain of Jack to come in also allows the possibility of someone else to come in. Maybe it’s in a form of a friend. Or a relationship of some sort. Or an actual bond with his daughters whom he seems to want to love all along but can’t quite close the deal on. Maybe Ennis, in spite of now feeling the loneliness and longing, never even musters the courage to seek out any of these. But if it comes to him, I believe the Ennis we see in the closing frames could finally let himself embrace this.

And in this, I for one see hope.
« Last Edit: Feb 09, 2006, 05:05 PM by dalemidex »

Offline n061857

  • beau dego
  • Alma
  • ****
  • Posts: 339
  • Gender: Female
Beautifully written, Dalemidix.

I hope that Jr. comes to see those shirts sometime and asks dad about them, and that maybe just maybe dad could open up.  That is a terrible burden to keep all that love and grief bottled up inside.
« Last Edit: Mar 30, 2006, 09:30 AM by n061857 »

Offline dalemidex

  • Alma
  • ****
  • Posts: 268
  • Gender: Male
  • Friend that's more words than you spoke in 2 weeks
Beautifully written, Dalemidix.

I hope that Jr. comes to see those shirts sometime and asks dad about them, and that maybe just maybe dad could open up.  That is a terrible burden to keep all that love and grief botled up inside.

Thank you, n061857.  I've on a few occasions witnessed old men telling things they would sooner have died than admitted to in earlier years.  Who knows if Ennis ever might have unburdened himself at some later point.

Offline Patriot1

  • BBM. What could possibly top it?
  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 2527
  • Gender: Male
  • In loving memory of Matthew Shepard 1976 - 1998
Beautifully written, Dalemidix.

I hope that Jr. comes to see those shirts sometime and asks dad about them, and that maybe just maybe dad could open up.  That is a terrible burden to keep all that love and grief botled up inside.

Thank you, n061857.  I've on a few occasions witnessed old men telling things they would sooner have died than admitted to in earlier years.  Who knows if Ennis ever might have unburdened himself at some later point.

If Ennis has to die old and living alone I hope he goes while having one of his "moist" dreams of Jack.  What a way to go!

Tell you what...truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it...

Love is a force of nature.

cauliflower

  • Guest
I read a while back that Annie Proulx visited a bar one day and noticed an aging, solitary cowboy looking at a group of younger ones playing pool with a look in his eyes that got her wondering. I believe she felt there was a look of lust (of sorts) and a certain sadness. It apparently helped her develop Enniss' character. Do you think that Ennis becomes that old repressed and lonely cowboy?

Offline bram

  • Jack
  • *****
  • Posts: 589
  • Gender: Male
I read a while back that Annie Proulx visited a bar one day and noticed an aging, solitary cowboy looking at a group of younger ones playing pool with a look in his eyes that got her wondering. I believe she felt there was a look of lust (of sorts) and a certain sadness. It apparently helped her develop Enniss' character. Do you think that Ennis becomes that old repressed and lonely cowboy?

I don't want to think that Ennis becoms that, but I do.
Dog Canyon, Texas is the most beautiful place in the world. You should check it out.

Offline n061857

  • beau dego
  • Alma
  • ****
  • Posts: 339
  • Gender: Female
I Ennis has to die old and living alone I hope he goes while having one of his "moist" dreams of Jack.  What a way to go!



Just as long as the sheets are moist and not the pillow!

Offline Patriot1

  • BBM. What could possibly top it?
  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 2527
  • Gender: Male
  • In loving memory of Matthew Shepard 1976 - 1998
I Ennis has to die old and living alone I hope he goes while having one of his "moist" dreams of Jack.  What a way to go!



Just as long as the sheets are moist and not the pillow!

I can say Amen to that.  ;)

Tell you what...truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it...

Love is a force of nature.

Sunflower79

  • Guest
I think he came to a certain understanding or relazation..he decided to take the time off for daughthers upcoming wedding because he realizes he loves her and wants to be apart of a special day for her..and he doesn''t want to regret later on that he didn't go. As for Jack I think he was deeply sad that his friend and lover was killed. I think he realized what he had and maybe wished he done things differently. sometimes it takes a tradegy in order to realize what one had..I would like to think that Ennis will keep the memories of the 20 years he had with Jack close to his heart..He did bring in the shirt and the postcard so he was keeping something special into his home that was Jack..something physical for him..he kept in in a place where he could see it and be close to it. I would like to think that he did come to realize the love he felt for Jack was true and its something he will hold close to his heart..

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Sunflower79, I do agree.  In the end, Ennis accepted the deepest thing about himself: that he truly loved Jack and could never deny this.

In this sense, he had made a gigantic move toward self-acceptance.


Offline proulxfan

  • Alma
  • ****
  • Posts: 384
  • Gender: Male
  • " You know I ain't queer!"
I guess I would/could quibble over using the word "acceptance" here, at least as I understand the term. The shirts are still hidden in the closet-not neccesarily inappropriately-but more importantly he has never discussed his relationship with Jack with Alma Jr. or anyone else. If it's still a complete secret from those who know and care about him, what has changed?? OT, but isn't it interesting that neither Ennis nor Jack has any photographs of the other after all those years? You'd think Jack would have wanted one of Ennis. Ennis might have been too 'phobic to keep a picture of Jack around. 
Jack: " Nice to know you, Ennis Del Mar."

Offline bram

  • Jack
  • *****
  • Posts: 589
  • Gender: Male
I guess I would/could quibble over using the word "acceptance" here, at least as I understand the term. The shirts are still hidden in the closet-not neccesarily inappropriately-but more importantly he has never discussed his relationship with Jack with Alma Jr. or anyone else. If it's still a complete secret from those who know and care about him, what has changed?? OT, but isn't it interesting that neither Ennis nor Jack has any photographs of the other after all those years? You'd think Jack would have wanted one of Ennis. Ennis might have been too 'phobic to keep a picture of Jack around. 

The movie does make it look like he hasn't really changed. I only read the short story once, but I remember feeling like he was slightly more open about it at the end. I don't mean that he was walking around talking about it, but maybe that if someone asked him about the shirts, then maybe he would say they were Jack's or something, instead of lying about it.

OT, the picture thing reminded me of this picture I bought at an antique shop. It's of a man holding another one from behind in front of what looks like a farm. I don't know when it was taken, but it looks very old, possibly 1940-50s. I'll find an appropriate thread to post it in later.
Dog Canyon, Texas is the most beautiful place in the world. You should check it out.

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
I don't hink there was complete openness and acceptance on the part of Ennis regarding who he truly was.  But his love for Jack was a major part of who he was and is.  By accepting this completely in the end -- the love, I mean -- that is a giant leap.

Externals are never always the surest signs that something fundamental has changed.


Offline bram

  • Jack
  • *****
  • Posts: 589
  • Gender: Male
I don't hink there was complete openness and acceptance on the part of Ennis regarding who he truly was.  But his love for Jack was a major part of who he was and is.  By accepting this completely in the end -- the love, I mean -- that is a giant leap.

Externals are never always the surest signs that something fundamental has changed.



That is shown by the fact that he goes to his daughter's wedding. I guess he's allowing himself to love her more openly. Maybe he didn't realize what he had in Jack until he lost him, and that helped him to realize that he needs to take advantage of having his daughter nearby?
Dog Canyon, Texas is the most beautiful place in the world. You should check it out.

Offline Stephen

  • Alma
  • ****
  • Posts: 306
  • Gender: Male
  • Tragedy: "Wisdom too late."
I guess I would/could quibble over using the word "acceptance" here, at least as I understand the term. The shirts are still hidden in the closet-not neccesarily inappropriately-but more importantly he has never discussed his relationship with Jack with Alma Jr. or anyone else. If it's still a complete secret from those who know and care about him, what has changed?? OT, but isn't it interesting that neither Ennis nor Jack has any photographs of the other after all those years? You'd think Jack would have wanted one of Ennis. Ennis might have been too 'phobic to keep a picture of Jack around. 

I, too, would quibble over the word "acceptance"; yet the film is so masterful in its subtleties that one's interpretation can reveal more about the sensibility of the viewer than the film: is the wine glass half full or half empty! My take from the story as written and from the film is that Ennis, with his "I swear..." may be on his way to acknowledging, deep in his heart, his love for Jack but the overall thrust of the storyline seems to be tragic, that Ennis realizes too late Jack's abiding love for him, and that Ennis will simply "stand it" in resignation and sadness.
"One more chain to break to get closer to you"

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
I agree with the gist of most of the postes here, even if they don't seem to completely agree.  Acceptance is quite difficult to gauge (half empty or half full?).  And the ending is tragic.  And he was more open to the power of love in the end, as demonstrated by his willingness to show his love for his daughter a bit more.

Offline proulxfan

  • Alma
  • ****
  • Posts: 384
  • Gender: Male
  • " You know I ain't queer!"
You're right on with the wine glass analogy, and I find it interesting that my wine glass says that deep in Ennis heart, he has known he loved Jack from the get-go, hence the alley scene. It's at the more surface level of conscious awareness, evidenced by being able to speak about it openly with some other person, where I think Ennis is most resistant to change  :-\ *sigh...*
Jack: " Nice to know you, Ennis Del Mar."

Offline dalemidex

  • Alma
  • ****
  • Posts: 268
  • Gender: Male
  • Friend that's more words than you spoke in 2 weeks
There are several signs I see that point to Ennis' increasingly moving toward being more open and honest with himself by the end of of the film.  I do have to couch this with the qualifier that (a) the steps are small, and (b) he started out further back than we might realize. 

Here's why I say this:

(1)  With the exception of a few glimmers around the reunion scene time (like him smiling and sending up a prayer of thanks) Ennis virtually NEVER acknowledges what Jack means to him, never to Jack and most certainly not when he is alone or with others.  His love and longing and desire drive him to keep seeing Jack, to quit jobs when he can't get the time off, etc.  But never do we see him give any sign that he will let himself accept or understand or acknowledge his love for Jack.    So when by the final scene Ennis says with tear-filled eyes "Jack, I swear" he's finally doing something he was NEVER able to do before Jack's death...acknowledge that Jack was more than just a good friend.  That is a big milestone.  If we use the analogy of time, with the year 2006 being "full acceptance and openness", it's like Ennis moving from 10000BC to 1000 AD.  He's still 1000 years away from what some would call "acceptance", but this was a huge step.

(2)  Ennis' visit to the Twist home  is the first time Ennis realizes and accepts somebody else knows about him and Jack.  There are only two times Ennis is aware that the wall is broken between his Brokeback world with Jack and his real life.  The first is Alma at Thanksgiving, and we see how ugly that turns out.  Violent, angry denial and threats, followed by him going to get drunk and picking a fight that ends in a beating.

But the second is at the Twist house.  Even before the shirts, when he hears that the Twists know who he is, that Jack has for years said that Ennis and Jack were going to someday live together on that ranch, it's clear that they understand.  Two men don't just live together out in the west for the heck of it.  Then when Jack's mother so clearly knows and understands what's up with the shirts.  That's the final clincher that other people know.  How did Ennis react that second time?  Under different circumstances, he might have denied it.  Said he didn't know what Jack was talking about, or said something like "me and MY WIFE ALMA always thought about moving up here".  Anything to deny, deflect or cast doubt about it.  But he didn't.  Nor did he run like he did from Thanksgiving and boil over about it. 

The immense pain of grief changed Ennis in a way that 20 more years of the status quo would not have.  I would not say Ennis was close to full self-acceptance by the end of the movie. But he was a lot closer than he was when Jack was alive.
« Last Edit: Mar 31, 2006, 11:40 AM by dalemidex »

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
dalemidex, you have a way with words.


Offline proulxfan

  • Alma
  • ****
  • Posts: 384
  • Gender: Male
  • " You know I ain't queer!"
dalemidex, you have a way with words.



I couldn't agree more!! Thanks for giving me an additional perspective on this topic! I hope this forum keeps going for the forseeable future, as I have a feeling we may not yet have mined all the gold to be had from this film.
Jack: " Nice to know you, Ennis Del Mar."