Topic: What did Jack/Ennis say in 2nd tent scene?

[BBM Fan]

Yep, when your raised on a farm, you quickly find out what goes where, but since they're definitely not farm animals, we won't go there. And who the hell brings instruction manuals to bed? Jack painted the picture very nicely for him by going down on all fours and saying "common", He gave the "greenlight" and Ennis simply "crossed the street".

Ok, you guys set me straight.  I'm looking pretty naive here, but I'm a city gal - what can I say.  I really didn't think Ennis had been there before, but there was definitely nothing amateurish about his moves!  Who really DID make the first move on all 4's?  Ennis pushed his shoulder, Jack grabbed his arm.  They work well together, don't you think?  Sorry for being OT?

[aintfoolin]

The throwdown? It was just a natural turn of events I beleive.(no pun intended). By the time Jack went down I believe Ennis was already up dear. :^^)There was no doubt what Jack wanted from him.

[BBM Fan]

The throwdown? It was just a natural turn of events I beleive.(no pun intended). By the time Jack went down I believe Ennis was already up dear. :^^)There was no doubt what Jack wanted from him.

I always thought I could adequately express myself, but not compared to you, Aintfoolin.  I'm going to stop posting, I am really lookin'     

You are too funny.

[aintfoolin]

As a nightowl, (the job requirement) I won't get  ^otill morning.!

[jackster]

I don't think Ennis came around quickly at all. Remember Ennis never initiated a kiss until the Reunion Scene.

What about the "morning after scene" (which may or may not be the morning after SNIT) when Aguirre spies them rolling on the ground? I've always felt that Ennis looked pretty certain as to what he wanted by that time even though he tries to hide it behind his hat. I've generally intrepreted the line "Ennis ran full throttle on all roads . . . ." to indicate that once things got going Ennis was pretty much an action figure and would want make things (either kissing or more serious stuff ) happen.

jackster

[jackster]

Well I think when Ennis said, "This is a one-shot thing we got goin on here." he meant that the rest of the time they were up on Brokeback Mountain they can have sex, but once they come down, that's it.

Then you have Jack saying, "It's nobody's buisiness but ours." Which is Jack's way of assuring Ennis that no one will know, and it's like saying, "What happens in Mexico/Vegas, stays in Mexico/Vegas."

Yeah, but of course in the SS it goes...
As it did go. They never talked about the sex, let it happen, at first only in the tent at night, then in the full daylight with the hot sun striking down, and at evening in the fire glow, quick, rough, laughing and
snorting, no lack of noises, but saying not a goddam word except once Ennis said, "I'm not no queer," and Jack jumped in with "Me neither. A one shot thing. Nobody's business but ours."

So things are a little "twisted" with the two storylines here. I guess I'd always seen Ennis's contemplation by the fire as a "do I or don't I?" type of self questioning. He could think the FNIT was just two drunk boys having fun, but his action (or inaction) here would be deliberate and in his mind self-determining. But you may be changing my view of this from a "do I" to a "how do I?" type of contemplation.

jackster

[Del Mar Twist]

What about the "morning after scene" (which may or may not be the morning after SNIT) when Aguirre spies them rolling on the ground? I've always felt that Ennis looked pretty certain as to what he wanted by that time even though he tries to hide it behind his hat. I've generally intrepreted the line "Ennis ran full throttle on all roads . . . ." to indicate that once things got going Ennis was pretty much an action figure and would want make things (either kissing or more serious stuff ) happen.

jackster

The original story, was a short story, which meant Annie Proulx had to skip some beats of the story, the movie filled in those beats. In the book, Ennis was ok with it the next morning, no riding away to contemplate what happened the night before, and no discussion about what they did until they were already having sex regularly.

The short story also contradicts itself by saying in the begining that Ennis' parents drove off, then later it says his farm folded when his parents died.

The hat scene doesn't show who kissed whom. Jack could have pulled Ennis into the kiss, like he did before that. But if you take the kisses we actually witnessed, and then Jack's face when he pulled way in the reunion scene, it fits. Jack realizes that it's not all him, it's not all in his head, that Ennis loves him too. The short story also says this, "Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held."

[Del Mar Twist]

Yeah, but of course in the SS it goes...
As it did go. They never talked about the sex, let it happen, at first only in the tent at night, then in the full daylight with the hot sun striking down, and at evening in the fire glow, quick, rough, laughing and
snorting, no lack of noises, but saying not a goddam word except once Ennis said, "I'm not no queer," and Jack jumped in with "Me neither. A one shot thing. Nobody's business but ours."

So things are a little "twisted" with the two storylines here. I guess I'd always seen Ennis's contemplation by the fire as a "do I or don't I?" type of self questioning. He could think the FNIT was just two drunk boys having fun, but his action (or inaction) here would be deliberate and in his mind self-determining. But you may be changing my view of this from a "do I" to a "how do I?" type of contemplation.

jackster

I see that as a major turning point for Ennis, he didn't walk into that tent that night Jack probably would have left him alone. Just by him staying at the camp that late Ennis made the choice to sleep here, but he still wasn't sure how to do it. By walking in there Ennis was speaking without words.

[jackster]

The short story also contradicts itself by saying in the begining that Ennis' parents drove off, then later it says his farm folded when his parents died.

A bit OT but I've understood the SS progression here as: 1. They drove off the curve, 2. they died, 3. the ranch folded (eventually) after K.E. and his sister couldn't make a go of it.
jackster

[jackster]

I see that as a major turning point for Ennis, he didn't walk into that tent that night Jack probably would have left him alone. Just by him staying at the camp that late Ennis made the choice to sleep here, but he still wasn't sure how to do it. By walking in there Ennis was speaking without words.

Completely agree here. However, IMHO if Ennis is "running full throttle" I think once he's made this major decision (to go into Jack's tent and spend the night), from then on he's the one initiating the kissing and primarily running the show. I think this is one of the reasons he's so PO'd at having to leave early, and Jack's reaction to it, he's losing control of the situation and doesn't know what to do. Punching Jack is Ennis again "speaking without words" wishing he could kill his own love for Jack (doesn't work, as he finds out in the alley). This is real interesting reading your take on this scene D.M.T., you've obviously thought about it a lot.

jackster

[BBM Fan]

Completely agree here. However, IMHO if Ennis is "running full throttle" I think once he's made this major decision (to go into Jack's tent and spend the night), from then on he's the one initiating the kissing and primarily running the show. I think this is one of the reasons he's so PO'd at having to leave early, and Jack's reaction to it, he's losing control of the situation and doesn't know what to do. Punching Jack is Ennis again "speaking without words" wishing he could kill his own love for Jack (doesn't work, as he finds out in the alley). This is real interesting reading your take on this scene D.M.T., you've obviously thought about it a lot.

jackster

Jackster:  Do you really think Ennis is "running the show" in the SNIT?  He definitely wanted something to happen & ultimately submitted to Jack, but Jack initiated the kissing.  Am I wrong?

[jackster]

Jackster:  Do you really think Ennis is "running the show" in the SNIT?  He definitely wanted something to happen & ultimately submitted to Jack, but Jack initiated the kissing.  Am I wrong?

No, your absolutly right. I guess I "misspoke" . I think he definetly needed some help and direction here which Jack's eager to give. I believe Ennis had decided he wanted this, he just didn't know HOW to make it happen (he hadn't had the "opportunity" i.e. experience). It was HIS decision to go to the tent however, if he hadn't Jack would've been left in there with just his yearning, I can't see him again yelling, "Ennis, . . . get over here"!. I think this is one reason this scene is so enchanting (and erotic), the back and forth play between an eager yet subservient Jack and a hesitant but assertive Ennis. Those boys -Heath/Jake really played it well! I do think that once Ennis saw how this could go (as it did go), and he had an idea of the relationship in his head, he expected it to go as he wanted and on his terms.
jackster

[BBM Fan]

No, your absolutely right. I guess I "misspoke" . I think he definitely needed some help and direction here which Jack's eager to give. I believe Ennis had decided he wanted this, he just didn't know HOW to make it happen (he hadn't had the "opportunity" i.e. experience). It was HIS decision to go to the tent however, if he hadn't Jack would've been left in there with just his yearning, I can't see him again yelling, "Ennis, . . . get over here"!. I think this is one reason this scene is so enchanting (and erotic), the back and forth play between an eager yet subservient Jack and a hesitant but assertive Ennis. Those boys -Heath/Jake really played it well! I do think that once Ennis saw how this could go (as it did go), and he had an idea of the relationship in his head, he expected it to go as he wanted and on his terms.
jackster

Jackster:  Finally.  I am right about something on this forum     Usually everyone blasts me because I don't "get it".  Poor, tormented Ennis - but he sure was a fast learner!  You are so right about how Heath & Jake played it.  I wouldn't mind having a lesson or 2 from them.  Agreed?   

[Del Mar Twist]

A bit OT but I've understood the SS progression here as: 1. They drove off the curve, 2. they died, 3. the ranch folded (eventually) after K.E. and his sister couldn't make a go of it.
jackster

"Ennis reared by his older brother and sister after their parents drove off the only curve on Dead Horse Road leaving them twenty-four dollars in cash and a two-mortgage ranch"

"Ennis's family place folded years ago after his folks died."

"Ennis, dredging up a rusty but still useable phrase from the childhood time before his mother died"

The first one says how his parents left him, and his siblings. Now the second two, esspecially the last one indicates that Ennis's mother was with him up until she died. Now if that last one read "before his mother left" then it would fit in the timeline, but to say "before his mother died" indicates she was with her children until she died, which we know she wasn't.

[Del Mar Twist]

Completely agree here. However, IMHO if Ennis is "running full throttle"

But see that is using the book's description of their love. Remember in the book Ennis turns Jack around and becomes the agressor, where in the movie, it's almost like a dance as Jack urns as Ennis turns him, it's mutual in the movie.
 

I think once he's made this major decision (to go into Jack's tent and spend the night), from then on he's the one initiating the kissing and primarily running the show.

I see it more as a reversal. During their first night, Jack made the initial move, then Ennis took more of the control. Their second night now, Ennis made the first move, and then Jack took control. I see the two scenes as them fitting together, becoming one, and to let us know that from that second night on they will be together equally.
 

I think this is one of the reasons he's so PO'd at having to leave early, and Jack's reaction to it, he's losing control of the situation and doesn't know what to do. Punching Jack is Ennis again "speaking without words" wishing he could kill his own love for Jack (doesn't work, as he finds out in the alley).

I agree. Ennis didn't want this to end, he realized he did love Jack, and this was their time. Remember Ennis was the one who set up the rules, that this was a "One-time thing". Ennis was afraid to leave their Eden, because he thought they wouldn't be able to be this happy once they left Brokeback. He wasn't prepared for this, not yet.

Ennis couldn't tell Jack he loved him, because he was raised to fear the feelings he had for Jack. One of the oldest forms of expression by men is to express our feelings through fighting. When we're little we pull the girl's hair we like. When we get into an argument with a friend or a brother we fight to work out those bottled up emotions, then we're ok. Ennis hitting Jack was just his way of working out anger, frustration, and showing Jack he loved him.

Ennis doubling over in pain is him coming to realize how much he loves Jack. I go into more depth about this scene in my fic on the Fic and Poems Forum here, it's called "Return To Brokeback Mountain", you should check it out I use scenes from the movie.
 

This is real interesting reading your take on this scene D.M.T., you've obviously thought about it a lot.

jackster

Thanks, and it's interesting to hear your takes also. I've seen this movie a lot in the last week, so yeah I've thought about it alot 

[jackster]

Jackster:  You are so right about how Heath & Jake played it.  I wouldn't mind having a lesson or 2 from them.  Agreed?   

YOU BET!

[jackster]

I go into more depth about this scene in my fic on the Fic and Poems Forum here, it's called "Return To Brokeback Mountain", you should check it out I use scenes from the movie.
 

I'll definitely check that out. OT- It is real interesting to me the way McMurtry and Ossana worked (or wrestled) that screenplay from the SS. Like keeping the "One shot thing" line but taking it from Jack and giving it to Ennis. That takes a lot of balls to do it, and brains to make it work. Brilliant.

Still have a hard time following your Ennis parents' timeline, but will study that.

jackster

[Del Mar Twist]

I'll definitely check that out. OT-

OK let me no wht you think of it when you do ok.

It is real interesting to me the way McMurtry and Ossana worked (or wrestled) that screenplay from the SS. Like keeping the "One shot thing" line but taking it from Jack and giving it to Ennis. That takes a lot of balls to do it, and brains to make it work. Brilliant.

I think it worked better with Ennis saying it, and think it was a great move to make. What the movie did that the short story didn't is show a distinction between Ennis and Jack. Ennis was the quiet one, the realist, while Jack was the dreamer. So I think the line wouldn't working coming from the movie Jack.

Still have a hard time following your Ennis parents' timeline, but will study that.

jackster

The three excerpts are in the order they appear in the short story. The 3rd one says before his mother died, that indicates that up until she died, she was with Ennis, but the 1st clearly says both parents left the three kids. The proper way to write that would have been to say before his mother left him.

[jackster]

The three excerpts are in the order they appear in the short story. The 3rd one says before his mother died, that indicates that up until she died, she was with Ennis, but the 1st clearly says both parents left the three kids. The proper way to write that would have been to say before his mother left him.

I’m no English major so I’m really out of my league here, but the sequence and wording Proulx laid out still makes perfect sense to me as a narrative. 1. They drove off the road, were killed and  “left” (departed) their children by way of death (at the same time they also “left” them $24 by inheritance). Ennis was 14 (1958) or less at the time. 2. When Ennis was 19 (1963) he says the Del Mar Ranch folded years ago (say, ca 1960), two years after his folks died. 3. Finally, in the Dozy Embrace he dredges up the childhood phrase from sometime before 1958 when his mother (and father) died. Seems to me that to have written “before his mother left” here would imply that she intentionally abandoned the children rather than being “taken by death”. You're not seeing this as a suicide are you? In any case you may be reading above my pay level here!
jackster

[Del Mar Twist]

I'm no English major so I'm really out of my league here, but the sequence and wording Proulx laid out still makes perfect sense to me as a narrative. 1. They drove off the road, were killed and “left” (departed) their children by way of death (at the same time they also “left” them $24 by inheritance). Ennis was 14 (1958) or less at the time. 2. When Ennis was 19 (1963) he says the Del Mar Ranch folded years ago (say, ca 1960), two years after his folks died. 3. Finally, in the Dozy Embrace he dredges up the childhood phrase from sometime before 1958 when his mother (and father) died. Seems to me that to have written “before his mother left” here would imply that she intentionally abandoned the children rather than being “taken by death”. You're not seeing this as a suicide are you? In any case you may be reading above my pay level here!
jackster

Actually, I never thought of it as suicide or an accident. It could be taken as such.

I think the first excerpt from the book could be taken either way, and I'm just letting how Ennis told it in the movie cloud my interpretation of it.

SHORT STORY
"Ennis reared by his older brother and sister after their parents drove off the only curve on Dead Horse Road leaving them twenty-four dollars in cash and a two-mortgage ranch"

MOVIE
"No, they run themselves off. There was... one curve in the road in 43 miles, and they miss it. So the bank took the ranch... and my brother and sister, they raised me, mostly."

The story says they took the only curve, where in the movie Ennis says they missed it. I think I'm letting the way it's stated in the movie influence the way I read it in the book.

[welshwitch]

Could we possibly get back to the subject of the thread now?

There is a thread for the timeline of the movie elsewhere.

[Twisted]

I hear Jack saying all this:

Kiss.

I'm sorry, it's allright, it's allright.

Come here, lay down.

[NoReins]

I don't hear Jack saying anything like "kiss", nor do I hear the "lay down" but apart from those, I hear what Twisted hears.

[Twisted]

Oh the kiss is only the kiss what they make, after they kiss, I hear those what I wrote

[NoReins]

Oh the kiss is only the kiss what they make, after they kiss, I hear those what I wrote

D'oh

Sorry, Twisted - I think I was having a stupid moment there

[lauren]

strange...after the kiss, all i heard was jack saying 'it's alright'. other than that, i can't hear anything else. i'm starting to wonder if there are different versions of the movie... 

[BBM Fan]

strange...after the kiss, all i heard was jack saying 'it's alright'. other than that, i can't hear anything else. i'm starting to wonder if there are different versions of the movie... 

lauren:  It's very difficult to hear because you can't really see their lips moving, they speak softly, & the music gets louder.  If you have headphones, try using them, & turn the sound up loud.  That's the way I first heard all the words - after you hear them once or twice, it's easier.

[jacks_key]

OT, but I have to say that I am really enjoying reading everyone's interpretations of these scenes.

[Dasha]

i'm starting to wonder if there are different versions of the movie... 

lol this came to mi mind too..

I can hear It's allright twice or once.. probably twice.. and then come here.. just before Jack kisses Ennis.. you can see Jack's lips moving.. but later I can't hear lay back or come here ? maybe because when they say it there is the guitar and it's very loud exactly in the moment where I think he could be saying it.. and I used my headphones..

Del Mar Twist: Wow I was enjoying and wondering while reading your replies :O but of others too God .. how can you turn down the background sound?  :\'( :\'( :\'(

[Emzan]

I'm watching it right now and Jack says:  come here and then they kiss and then he says I'm sorry and then it's alright twice