Topic: If Ennis knew Randall was moving in on Jack, how would he react?

[manhattangirl]

Ennis was really never challenge to make a decision as far as Jack was concern.   He always assumed, no matter what going on between them, Jack would always return to him.  Apparently,  Jack knew what to tell and what not to tell Ennis, but what if he would have told him that there was someone else that wanted him, like Randall.  How would Ennis react?     

(if this was asked before, please forgive me)

[welshwitch]

hatever he felt, I can't see Ennis doing anything about it. He'd just think it was something else he had to stand - I can't imagine him rushing off to Childress to reclaim Jack from Randall.

[manhattangirl]

hatever he felt, I can't see Ennis doing anything about it. He'd just think it was something else he had to stand - I can't imagine him rushing off to Childress to reclaim Jack from Randall.

Thanks WW:   It was just an idea, I had.   I was just wondering if this actual happen in the story, that Ennis was honestly confronted with the knowledge that he could lose Jack to someone else.  What would be different in the outcome.   That maybe he'd wake-up and just take that chance.  Actually be a participant in this love.    Even if the outcome would still be the same, at least he tried, instead of letting Jack just slip away from him.

Every time I watch this film, I get so angry,  Ennis had something we all want in life, a person so totally dedicated to us, who loves us, who wants us, who will take chances to be with us.  What does he do? He's turns his back on it.   

Jack had no fear, he got in his truck and went to him, Jack knew better then Ennis how it could be out there in the real world, and he still wanted the "Sweet Life". 

Look, maybe what happen to Ennis in the end was something he constructed for himself, therefore a just ending.  What I mean is, he layed the ground work for years, for this conclusion in this story.  Alone, in a trailer in the middle of nowhere, where he could mourn his lover of twenty years, without fear of the outside world. 

Anyway, thanks again WW. 

[LuvJackNasty]

Well Ennis was mighty unhappy about Mexico so I think that having the knowledge of Randall would have  brought on a fiercer reaction. Mexico was a bunch of nameless, faceless people whereas Randall was in close proximity to Jack, had a name and a face and was more of a threat. Seeing his reaction to all them things he don't know I could see Ennis being incredibly angry and hauling off and punching him.  I think that hearing about Randall from Papa Twist was like a new knife plunged into his heart and that's what makes the shirts more impactful (to me). Do I think Ennis would have stopped traveling around the coffeepot and make his way to Texas? No. I'd like to think he would. I do think it would have made him stop and think though- that Jack was planning on getting his sweet life with or without Ennis. I think it would have been a wake up call of sorts for him.

[tpe]

Ennis was really never challenge to make a decision as far as Jack was concern.   He always assumed, no matter what going on between them, Jack would always return to him.  Apparently,  Jack knew what to tell and what not to tell Ennis, but what if he would have told him that there was someone else that wanted him, like Randall.  How would Ennis react?     

(if this was asked before, please forgive me)

I believe Ennis, in a moment of jealous rage, could have harmed Jack.

I don't think Ennis was ever really in control where Jack was concerned -- even if Ennis called all the shots in the relationship, he felt himself a prisoner of his love for Jack.  He was faithful to that love, and expected the same thing from Jack. 

So Ennis didn't really see himself as the controller of the relationship.  Hnece, he would have regarded such an event as an outright betrayal.  Only later -- after Jack's death -- did he get to understand that what Jack desired most of all was a life together, and that he had harbored this hope for almost 20 years.

[NoReins]

I'm not sure. I think there are certain moments in the story/film that could have turned out differently and this is one of them. I've always thought of them as "what if" moments - what if Jack had turned his truck round and picked Ennis up at the end of the summer, what if Ennis hadn't had the girls when Jack turned up after the divorce....and what if Jack had told him the truth about the "ranch foreman's wife"?

I think tpe may be right in saying that Ennis may have become violent...but I think it may have ended up differently to the punch thrown on Brokeback. Then, the punch was thrown out of frustration and emotion and Jack didn't fully understand that at that time (MadLori put it brilliantly in her fic "Human Interest" - "a fight borne from too many emotions welling up into hearts ill prepared to contain them") But after twenty years? I think he knew that Ennis felt the same way, and I think that if it had come to a punch thrown, he would have been able to say to Ennis "well, you know, it's all down to you - one word from you and I'll never need anyone else". How would Ennis have reacted to that? Maybe the same way he always did - but maybe, just maybe, the very real threat of losing Jack would be enough to make him see sense and take a chance?

Ultimately, the shirts were the wake up call that came too late...and maybe the truth here would have been a more timely reminder to Ennis of all he stood to lose.

[tpe]

I think tpe may be right in saying that Ennis may have become violent...but I think it may have ended up differently to the punch thrown on Brokeback. Then, the punch was thrown out of frustration and emotion and Jack didn't fully understand that at that time (MadLori put it brilliantly in her fic "Human Interest" - "a fight borne from too many emotions welling up into hearts ill prepared to contain them") But after twenty years? I think he knew that Ennis felt the same way, and I think that if it had come to a punch thrown, he would have been able to say to Ennis "well, you know, it's all down to you - one word from you and I'll never need anyone else". How would Ennis have reacted to that? Maybe the same way he always did - but maybe, just maybe, the very real threat of losing Jack would be enough to make him see sense and take a chance?

Ultimately, the shirts were the wake up call that came too late...and maybe the truth here would have been a more timely reminder to Ennis of all he stood to lose.

True.  It is hard for me to think of Ennis killing Jack.   Ennis had a surprising amount of self-restraint -- as witnessed in the Thanksgiving scene...

Don't you think that in that last quarrel, Jack was sort of provoking -- daring -- Ennis.  That Ennis restrained himself althroughtout contributed to his breaking down, no?  I think this was one thing we have seen many times: Ennis keeping all the pain and the hurt all inside himself.

Had he found out, I suspect that he would have been torn apart inside, rather than outside.

"a fight borne from too many emotions welling up into hearts ill prepared to contain them" -- beautifully put.

[NoReins]

Don't you think that in that last quarrel, Jack was sort of provoking -- daring -- Ennis.  That Ennis restrained himself althroughtout contributed to his breaking down, no?  I think this was one thing we have seen many times: Ennis keeping all the pain and the hurt all inside himself.

Had he found out, I suspect that he would have been torn apart inside, rather than outside.

"a fight borne from too many emotions welling up into hearts ill prepared to contain them" -- beautifully put.

I think Jack was provoking Ennis during that last fight, yes....but I'm not sure that Ennis did manage to keep it all inside. When he collapsed and cried "I just can't stand this anymore Jack", there are two ways you can look at it. Either he was saying "this has to end because it's tearing me apart" or he was saying "we have to find a way to fix this because I can't stand it". I prefer to think it's the latter (yes, I know, hopeless romantic time again ) and that, had Jack lived, the conversation they would have had in November might have had a different outcome.

That line may well be my favourite fanfic line ever....

[welshwitch]

I don't see Ennis through the prism of fanfic - what I do see is that he can be full of anger but it bursts out at everyone but Jack - the bikers, Alma -in the supermarket, outside the apartment, at Thanksgiving - then at the driver of the pickup outside the bar. The few times he shows aggression to Jack are when they are both already emotionally highly-wrought - when they're leaving the mountain and during the last confrontation.He never takes Jack on one-sidedly, so to speak. So I think if he'd found out or heard from Jack that Randall had become a viable alternative to him, I don't think he's have reacted violently unles Randall had been there, then Ennis might well have attacked him.

Blaming the one whom you don't love for what may be partly or wholly the fault of the one you do is common. And how could Ennis accept that Jack had moved on? It would deprive his life of all meaning. He has to go on believing in Jack.

[aintfoolin]

This is  a question I've thought about many times. Been chillin but I saw this thread posting and could not resist  contributing my humble opinion.
Judging from the reaction Jack got from Ennis after the Mexico business, he'd be crazy saying("By the way Ennis, theirs also this guy named Randall I've been seein...")   %(Ennis was livid at Jack for sharing what was his alone with Mexicn hustlers, and would not be a very understanding man about it.  but I agree Randall was much more of a threat to Ennis because of what was said above. Randall had a name, and a face and easy access. which creates more oppotrunity to convince. Being a RANCH FOREMAN could'nt hurt either  when were talkin what Jack wanted. He was evrerything Ennis waasnt. Educated, with a promising career with animals. . Ennis's own dream. Ennis would go totally ballistic on Jack out of pure jealosy and pain.IMO ( and Randall too) and Jack knew it.,if this fact was exposed at that last meetig on top of finding out about the strangers Jack had out of desperation. He'd be hurt and angry.....but so was Jack , That's why he did it in the first place. Ennis, although he's mad  and maybe violent , Ennis has to accept resonsibilty for his part  in this thing with Jack cheating to start with. Jack is willing to take a chance, Ennis is'nt , and neither will budge. Jack attempting to take that chance with someone else would also be unacceptale to Ennis also.  He loved Jack and had sacrificed alot himself and Jack loved him thefore nobody really wins. Ennis held all the cards ...and coud'nt deal.My opinion.

[welshwitch]

I should think Ennis would react to Randall in much the same wayas the Texas "good old boys" reacted to Jack, though for different reasons. When he arived in Childress, Jack was an outsider - what social status he has is largely as a result of the Newsome connection. Randall to is an outsider - what social status he has may come from the fact that he is a new generation, college-educated - but may therefore be regarded with suspicion by the older generation and almost cetainly by Ennis, who has years less of education. Ennis would know if he met him that he couldn't compete with Randall in terms of education, skills, all sorts of things like the contrasting way in which Randall speaks and dresses - and if you feel inferiour to someone, you tend to assume that others will see you like that. In fact Jack still has more in common with Ennis than with Randall, IMO, and I'm sure would see it.

[welshwitch]

Yes, it's ennis whose perceptions are so difficult to call - his experience is so limited that I think he's be suspicious of difference of any sort.

  A bad witch, of course - no fun in being the other sort. Have my familiars and my spells, some of which don't always work exactly as I hoped.

[aintfoolin]

 Yes, Ennis would definitly feel an outsider in this and probably wonder how much influence Randall would have over Jack. Ennis bein stuck way up in Wyoming, while Randall is only a hop,skip and a jump from Jack would drive Ennis crazy thinking about this smooth ranch foreman down in Texas puttin the serious moves on his man. At some point he  would let Jack know that he was not going to stand for it. Maybe he'd panic at the idea of loosing Jack and agree to settle down with Jack after all. Maybe. Otherwise eventually someone would end up gettin their ass kicked if it does'nt go his way. I don't think he'd just let it go that easily Ennis was not going out like that.  After 20 years Ennis  considered Jack to be his. He loved him. IMO.

[tpe]

I think Jack was provoking Ennis during that last fight, yes....but I'm not sure that Ennis did manage to keep it all inside. When he collapsed and cried "I just can't stand this anymore Jack", there are two ways you can look at it. Either he was saying "this has to end because it's tearing me apart" or he was saying "we have to find a way to fix this because I can't stand it". I prefer to think it's the latter (yes, I know, hopeless romantic time again ) and that, had Jack lived, the conversation they would have had in November might have had a different outcome.

That line may well be my favourite fanfic line ever....

I would also like to think that the statement "I just can't stand this anymore Jack" may have revealed a new resolve within Ennis (as much as it was a cry for help), and I also think that it was tearing Ennis apart.   It is sad that next November never came.  Perhaps things may have come to a head there and then...  Randal was perhaps part of the calculation of pushing Ennis to finally try to fix things...

[tpe]

This is  a question I've thought about many times. Been chillin but I saw this thread posting and could not resist  contributing my humble opinion.
Judging from the reaction Jack got from Ennis after the Mexico business, he'd be crazy saying("By the way Ennis, theirs also this guy named Randall I've been seein...")   %(Ennis was livid at Jack for sharing what was his alone with Mexicn hustlers, and would not be a very understanding man about it.  but I agree Randall was much more of a threat to Ennis because of what was said above. Randall had a name, and a face and easy access. which creates more oppotrunity to convince. Being a RANCH FOREMAN could'nt hurt either  when were talkin what Jack wanted. He was evrerything Ennis waasnt. Educated, with a promising career with animals. . Ennis's own dream. Ennis would go totally ballistic on Jack out of pure jealosy and pain.IMO ( and Randall too) and Jack knew it.,if this fact was exposed at that last meetig on top of finding out about the strangers Jack had out of desperation. He'd be hurt and angry.....but so was Jack , That's why he did it in the first place. Ennis, although he's mad  and maybe violent , Ennis has to accept resonsibilty for his part  in this thing with Jack cheating to start with. Jack is willing to take a chance, Ennis is'nt , and neither will budge. Jack attempting to take that chance with someone else would also be unacceptale to Ennis also.  He loved Jack and had sacrificed alot himself and Jack loved him thefore nobody really wins. Ennis held all the cards ...and coud'nt deal.My opinion.

The last statement is an excellent way of putting it. 

I think Randall may have also been a way for Jack to finally get some reaction from Ennis -- a chance to possibly move forward.  I don't question Jack's resolve to carry on with Randall if he couldn't get Ennis to share a life with him.  But I also can't help thinking that in doing so, Jack was forcing Ennis's hand.  To see how Ennis really felt was far better than living the status quo, in Jack's mind.  Even in his love, he was forever taking risks.

[tpe]

Hiya friend welshwitch !!
 Yes indeed. I agree Jack still had more in common with Ennis then with Randall.A fact that hadn't escaped me I am proud to say.

But I feel Ennis,because of his insecurities, would ponder for a spell how much Jack may have changed on him.
Even if Jack was still the same ol' same ol'(bless his heart) .

 I would think Ennis would vocalize his concerns, perhaps in the same manner he did 'bout "Mex-he-co" .
Jack would smile that....."Man,that's the most you've spoken in two weeks" smile, sense Ennis needed to be reassured of his love and be more than happy to reassure him...AKA another tent scene.

By The way....Are you a good welshwitch or a bad welshwitch ?

This exchange go me to think: had Ennis ever considered the possibility that Jack could have just moved on with another person?  I wonder...  Perhaps he didn't, although it is hard to imagin ehtat Ennis didn't think about the possibility, given the way he had stymied Jack's often expressed desire for a sweet life together. 

Perhaps Ennis was too confident of the power oftheir love.  In which case, finding out that Jack was ready to move with someone else would have been catastrophic.

[welshwitch]

Given Ennis's nature, I should think it entirely possible that it never occurred to him that Jack might look elsewhere. Ennis isn't imaginative or intuitive, doesn't look elsewhere himself and as Jack says in their last scene together appears to be able to manage on " a few high-altitude f**ks a year". when Jack drives off after the post-divorce meeting, Ennis presumably thinks he's either going back to Texas or on to see his parents.

The light doesn't seem to dawn till Jack mentions Mexico and then it's as if something clicks in Ennis's mind. Even then he doesn't apparently go back to the earlier conversation and wonder about the reference to the ranch-foreman's wife.

[tpe]

Given Ennis's nature, I should think it entirely possible that it never occurred to him that Jack might look elsewhere. Ennis isn't imaginative or intuitive, doesn't look elsewhere himself and as Jack says in their last scene together appears to be able to manage on " a few high-altitude f**ks a year". when Jack drives off after the post-divorce meeting, Ennis presumably thinks he's either going back to Texas or on to see his parents.

The light doesn't seem to dawn till Jack mentions Mexico and then it's as if something clicks in Ennis's mind. Even then he doesn't apparently go back to the earlier conversation and wonder about the reference to the ranch-foreman's wife.

I had felt the same way, but I was surprised by the intense jealousy on Ennis's part that seemed to underlie his reaction during their last quarrel.  In fact, I had posted similar thoughts in the old thread about what I thought to be Ennis's possessive love for Jack.   As you had hinted in the above post, I think Ennis understood the hint about Mexico but seemed to have internalized everything well up until that last quarrel...

 

[manhattangirl]

Given Ennis's nature, I should think it entirely possible that it never occurred to him that Jack might look elsewhere. Ennis isn't imaginative or intuitive, doesn't look elsewhere himself and as Jack says in their last scene together appears to be able to manage on " a few high-altitude f**ks a year". when Jack drives off after the post-divorce meeting, Ennis presumably thinks he's either going back to Texas or on to see his parents.

The light doesn't seem to dawn till Jack mentions Mexico and then it's as if something clicks in Ennis's mind. Even then he doesn't apparently go back to the earlier conversation and wonder about the reference to the ranch-foreman's wife.

I had felt the same way, but I was surprised by the intense jealousy on Ennis's part that seemed to underlie his reaction during their last quarrel.  In fact, I had posted similar thoughts in the old thread about what I thought to be Ennis's possessive love for Jack.   As you had hinted in the above post, I think Ennis understood the hint about Mexico but seemed to have internalized everything well up until that last quarrel...

I've got to go along with the both of you.  But it was only with Jack, Ennis seems to be able to express himself at all, "he even talks". 

Yes, I also agree Ennis had a possessive love for Jack, that "short leash" Jack was straining on.  That's what so  scary, Ennis wants Jack totally for himself, on his own very limited terms,  but threatens Jack if he ever went else where.  How "schizoid" is that?  If he ever knew about Randall he would have never been able to handle it, and I don't see him just walking away.       

[welshwitch]

Then you're raising the question of the nature of Ennis's love if, as you say, it's possessive and selfish. And that's a whole different topic.

[tpe]

I've got to go along with the both of you.  But it was only with Jack, Ennis seems to be able to express himself at all, "he even talks". 

Yes, I also agree Ennis had a possessive love for Jack, that "short leash" Jack was straining on.  That's what so  scary, Ennis wants Jack totally for himself, on his own very limited terms,  but threatens Jack if he ever went else where.  How "schizoid" is that?  If he ever knew about Randall he would have never been able to handle it, and I don't see him just walking away.       

OT: manhattangirl, did you read the old thread about Ennis's possesive love for Jack.  I would to hear your opinion on a number of points raised in that thread. 

[tpe]

Then you're raising the question of the nature of Ennis's love if, as you say, it's possessive and selfish. And that's a whole different topic.

I don't know if I would call it selfish.  He certainly minded sharing Jack with any other man.  But Ennis was faithful, so he simply expected that Jack would do the same.  Too bad it wasn't the same for Jack: "I'm not like you..."   :\'(

[welshwitch]

"Expected" seeme to me to imply more analytical examination of their relationship than Ennis was capable of. I think he just went on going on, full of terrors but unable to give Jack up - I think the idea that there was someone else in Jack's life would have been too much for him - his reaction to the idea of Mexico was IMO just blind rage. 

[tpe]

"Expected" seeme to me to imply more analytical examination of their relationship than Ennis was capable of. I think he just went on going on, full of terrors but unable to give Jack up - I think the idea that there was someone else in Jack's life would have been too much for him - his reaction to the idea of Mexico was IMO just blind rage. 

This is probably true.  He followed whatever his confusion would allow, no?  He certainly seemed to believe in monogamy of a certain type.  Jack was a bit more open, it seems.  IT is hard to make an analogy with current ideas of homosexual and heterosexual relationships...

[carbyville]

As LJN said, Ennis was pretty upset about Mexico, and that was anonymous encounters. Everytime I think about this scene, I think about a little quote that I read by Diana Ossana in which she said

Diana Ossana: Cassie somewhat exemplifies Ennis’s continual denial of his emotional makeup, and his attempts to have what he believed was a “normal” relationship with a woman. After his and Jack’s final confrontation about Mexico, Ennis realizes that it is Jack he truly loves, and he simply cannot continue in his attempts at a relationship with Cassie, thus her confronting him in the diner about his whereabouts and her frustrations and painful realization that she’s not “the one.”

That always leads me to think about what could have happened if they had gotten to have their schedule November meeting. In the case of Jack telling Ennis about Randall, anger is the first thing I think of. He was angry about Mexico he would have been ten times more angry about Randall, but I do believe it would have woken him up a bit, just like the confrontation about Mexico did. I also do not think Ennis would have hopping in his truck and gone racing down to Mexico, though. Another postcard? Maybe. Not sure what he'd write on it though. Jack may not even take it seriously anyway since he was already burned by the divorce postcard.

To be honest, it is anyone's guess what Ennis would have done in this situation. For example:  I like to believe that had they met up in November they would have had a long talk and resolved some things, but I can't be sure given Ennis's constant resistance. If you add Randall into the mix I think Ennis would have moved a little quicker to resolve things, but not after being angry for a good while.

[manhattangirl]

Being with Alma and Cassie was not "normal" for Ennis, it never was.  Ennis as he is with Jack, is the most normal he'd ever been in his life, and could ever hope to be.   Monogamy, yes, why shouldn't he expected that from Jack. Understanding that this is not a realistic idea, given Jack's nature, and compounded by the suffocating rules set down by Ennis, faithfulness was indeed expected.

Jack was his, and Jack will always be his.  What Jack couldn't understand was Ennis resistance.    If Jack would have  understood it and dealt with Ennis's fears head on,  he may have help Ennis to understand that it would be alright, just trust him    Ennis and Jack were not introspective men, the complexities of their relationship was just too much to take in, the here and now was all they could see.     

Ennis with ease could discuss their experience with the women in their lives, but to discuss other men, was a territory unimaginable, an undiscovered country so to speak.  Why this envelop wasn't  pushed a little more in this story and not just limiting it to 'Mexico', well that's why we're discussing the what ifs now.   

[tpe]

Assuming that Ennis and Jack did meet in November, I still wonder whether Jack would have told Ennis everything.  Sometimes, I think the easier way out for Jack was not to show hup in November.  Somehow, I have this feeling that if he did show up, he wouldn't have told Ennis -- more because he didn't like to hurt him, rather than being afraid of what he might do.

I do think that Ennis was more "himself" when with Jack.  Was part of that the element of possessivness?  Again, it is hard top think what Ennis would have done if they met in November and Ennis found out about Randall.  The natural reaction for Ennis would have been to lash out -- the same way he lashed out in the fight scene at the end of their stay on BBM back in 63.  Ennis was certainly capabale of making good his threat to Jack.  But I suspect that if Jack told him, Ennis would have been devastated.

[FlwrChild]

To me, the bigger issue for Ennis if he found out about Randall would be having to face the idea that Jack might actually 'be queer'. Which would point to the unbearable possibility that he was too. I always thought that was part of what upset him about Mexico. I think he was intensely jealous, deeply hurt that Jack 'cheated' on him, but at the same time, unable to admit, even to himself that he felt this way because he loved Jack.

As usual, he is a mass of contradictions. Living inside of Ennis must have been a very difficult experience.

What would he have done about it? Wow, mighty good question. My guess is that his first instinct would be to run from it, not try to win Jack back. He wasn't ready at that time to face his conflicts. I think the breakdown during the final confrontation was the first sign of the protective shell cracking. To even admit that he felt so strongly and let Jack see him so vulnerable was a huge departure for him. I think anything after that might have had some possibility but until then he was still pretty tightly wound.

Hmm, I don't know...

[welshwitch]

I tend to agree. Even than, Mexico had overtones that Ennis would not want to have associated with Jack, and certainly with himself. No-one has mentioned either the dangers inherent in such places. i wonder how much Ennis knew about them?

Ennis can clearly see himself as " not queer" because he seems to classify himself as a one-off. But if it became obvious that Jack had been connected with other men, and had at least one in his life who had openly encouraged and invited him to share something he had possible considered very seriously, then Ennis couldn't avoided the conclusion that Jack was an acknowledged practising gay. And what would that make him if he committed to Jack?

Part of me thinks that after the Mexico trip and the possible intervention of Randall, there's no way Jack could have gone back and settled with Ennis even if Ennis had come round to doing so. The romantic part says that if they loved each other, they would settle down together and accept each other, but Ennis never really had done so in the past and I don't know whether he would in the future.

[manhattangirl]

IMHO: 

This is when the possessiveness is kicked right to the surface.   Being "queer" and not being a "queer" is not important at this moment.  Jack is giving away what belonged to Ennis.  Jack belonged to him. Jack was his.  He would kill him if ever found out about all the things he didn't know about.   Ennis was not conflicted at this moment, and he ain't foolin. 

Jack indeed knew when to draw back from Ennis, he knew of his violence. Ennis function on pure emotion and not much thought.  Jack took a big chance on telling him about Mexico.   But he had no choice, Ennis wasn't giving in on much.   

To tell him of Randall would result I think, two ways, Ennis would have beaten him to death, or got on his knees and begged him not to go back to Randall.   Would Ennis go off with Jack, heck no, he wouldn't, but there was no way he would give Jack up.  (Crazy isn't it?).

Ennis wasn't  a "Dr. Phil" let explore our feelings kind of guy.   We seen so many time in this story how he internalized things until it was to much for him to bare.