Topic: If Ennis knew Randall was moving in on Jack, how would he react?

[tpe]

I do think that Jack had measured Ennis exactly -- making sure that thwe cup would not overflow.  Well, at least he did this up intil the last meeting, and that happened because Jack's cup was the one that overflowed.  At that point, he probably no longer cared how Ennis would have reacted.  He wanted Ennis's cup to overflow.  Like a dam, such a thing would relieve the pressure.  Perhaps Jack realized that now he had to push Ennis, if things were not to burst.

[aintfoolin]

 Indeed Jack wanted to push Ennis and when he did he discovered that Ennis was more fragile that at first beleif. As far as Randall goes thank goodness he had the good sense to keep that card up his sleeve while he forced Ennis's hand.  Ennis was who he really loved and wanted and was'nt going to risk loosing this game after all those years by spilling his guts about Randall. Although Randall was an ace up Jack's sleeve, We are not privy to the deepness of Randall's commitment either, but we do know Ennis's track record. He would expect monogamy from anyone he was seriously involved with. Jack was frustrated and mad already when Ennis decided to "up the anty *with his little remark about "boys like you" which I don't think Jack appreciated that much. At that point, I do'nt think he gave a damn what Ennis thought the way he answered it ,coupled with Ennis changing the date of the next meeting, Jack had heard enough. He finally let Ennis have it with both barrels...And that was enough at the moment and Ennis broke down.Telling him about Randall would have been to painful to bear and just too cold. . Ennis is already desperate enough after being hit with Mexico. Remember, Ennis sacrificed as well, loosing his marriage, quit jobs, separated from his girls etc, to be with Jack those 20 years and in his mind safe too.  So his reaction IMO would be hurt pain ,desperation ,and fear...and intense out of control anger.Telling him about Randall would have destroyed Ennis and Jack would not want that. He loved him to much to do so. My thoughts.

[tpe]

Yes, Ennis's reaction would truly depend on how deep the commitment was between Jack and Randall.  I think that -- in spite of his threat to Jack in the last meeting -- Ennis would not have minded too much if the relationship between Jack and Randall proved superficial.  There is some indication that the relationship was not shallow, IMO.  Nonetheless, I do think finding all this out later -- after Jack had died -- finally did reveal to Ennis the depth of jack's love.  It is telling that Ennis's reaction would have been so measured and restrained with Jack gone -- I am sure it would not have been so if Jack were still alive...

[aintfoolin]

 I think it was an unconcious act on Jack's part confessing the Mexican business and putting Ennis's love to the test. Needless to say Ennis did not take it well, but I agree with an earlier point  that Jack was daring Ennis.forcing his hand. Using Randall to test Ennis's love further would have been downright dangerous knowing Ennis's state of mind at the time.( though I think Jack could have held his own against Ennis in a knockdown dragout) but this was not his desire, but this thing would have gotten alot uglier  if Randall and Ennis came face to face at some point. He had already threatened Jack's life about "all them things" he did'nt know so I hate to think about what he 'd have tried to do to Randall. It would not be a pretty picture....Jack knew better than to tell.

[tpe]

What made Ennis take things in a relatively -- and surprisingly -- clam manner when he did finally hear from John Twist about Jack's plans to move in with another man?  I suspect the shock of Jack's death had put things into better perspective with Ennis.  This seems to suggest that shocking Ennis out of the status quo maight have worked.

Any thoughts?

[aintfoolin]

I think that at this point Ennis had come to appreciate what he had with Jack now that he was gone. He also probably realized his responsibility and the part he played in Jack seeking out another potentially serious relationship with another man. I feel his suprising calm was out of respect for that. I still maintain that Ennis may have come around if Jack had'nt died and was confronted with this  information about  he and Randall. Jack was gonna settle with one or the other, and after much wracking of the brain and time being of the essence IMO ,this would have been enough to shock Ennis into making those deep ,hard choices. He would now realize that Jack was not going to wait forever for him to commit. Yeah, he would have been very angry and upset and talked a lot of shit and threats  just like he did in that last fight  but he could'nt stand it. , but eventually he'd have caved and reclaimed Jack as his own.  That  little "talk" Jack gave him scared the crap out of him. You don't invest 20 years in someone and not see the light.  Confronted with this, IMO he would have fought for Jack.  Through all his faults and fears he loved him deeply.

[tpe]

I think that at this point Ennis had come to appreciate what he had with Jack now that he was gone. He also probably realized his responsibility and the part he played in Jack seeking out another potentially serious relationship with another man. I feel his suprising calm was out of respect for that. I still maintain that Ennis may have come around if Jack had'nt died and was confronted with this  information about  he and Randall. Jack was gonna settle with one or the other, and after much wracking of the brain and time being of the essence IMO ,this would have been enough to shock Ennis into making those deep ,hard choices. He would now realize that Jack was not going to wait forever for him to commit. Yeah, he would have been very angry and upset and talked a lot of shit and threats  just like he did in that last fight  but he could'nt stand it. , but eventually he'd have caved and reclaimed Jack as his own.  That  little "talk" Jack gave him scared the crap out of him. You don't invest 20 years in someone and not see the light.  Confronted with this, IMO he would have fought for Jack.  Through all his faults and fears he loved him deeply.

Somehow, I do feel that Ennis probably would not have made good his threat had he found out about Jack's plans.  Perhaps he would have relented.  It is hard to read Ennis when it comes to certain things about Jack.  "I can't stand it anymore, Jack" seems to indicate that he may have realized that the status quo won't work, and he may have been at a point where he was about to "turn around".  But the violence within him is also very real, no?  He certainly could have made good his threat.  But somehow, I feel that there was a limit to what even Ennis could bear.

[aintfoolin]

And Jack also has his limits too. If Ennis is smart, he would realize that Randall means that Jack is already in "moving on mode" or at the very least thinking about it and  so harming Jack is not an option if his plans include keeping him.  It's like "put up or shut up" at this point. Jack was no longer going to settle for the status quo and Ennis was'nt about to share either. He had to make a choice. Hard one since Ennis does'nt handle pressure very well. Look at how he handled Alma at Thanksgiving for merely SAYING bad things about Jack.Randall did'nt know it at the time, but his life was at stake.His violence is very real. How Ennis handled this though could mean the difference between keeping Jack whom he loved, or pushing him further into Randall's arms.

[tpe]

And Jack also has his limits too. If Ennis is smart, he would realize that Randall means that Jack is already in "moving on mode" or at the very least thinking about it and  so harming Jack is not an option if his plans include keeping him.  It's like "put up or shut up" at this point. Jack was no longer going to settle for the status quo and Ennis was'nt about to share either. He had to make a choice. Hard one since Ennis does'nt handle pressure very well. Look at how he handled Alma at Thanksgiving for merely SAYING bad things about Jack.Randall did'nt know it at the time, but his life was at stake.His violence is very real. How Ennis handled this though could mean the difference between keeping Jack whom he loved, or pushing him further into Randall's arms.

Yes, I really thought Jack was willing to move on, even if this would mean losing Ennis.  Or perhaps Jack had thought all along that by provoking Ennis this way, he would inevitably force his hand into sharing a life.  It is hard for me to see Ennis actually doing it.  But in the end, he did seem to have realized what he had lost.  Would he have chosen otherwise if he were given a second chance?  I think so.

[welshwitch]

I think by that final scene Jack was so frustrated and angry, confronted yet again by Ennis's intransigence and unable to see why he refused even to try to move on, that saying what he did in a fit of bravado was less premeditated than instinctive. It's as if he's given up the effort to keep his secrets and no longer cares what Ennis knows. Equally he seems no longer to care about Ennis's propensity to erupt into violence - maybe after all the pain he's suffered that wouldn't matter to him. He's also challenging Ennis over Mexico - well, if you treat me like this, what do you expect me to do? But he doesn;t mention Randall, who is real and if Ennis wanted to get-at-able - anyone in Mexico is far away and impossible to find - Randall isn't. Randall's also part of Jack's life in Childress, from which Ennis has always been excluded, and part of what Jack would have left to go back to if it all ended with Ennis.

[manhattangirl]

After Ennis's threat, it was like Jack said OK you SOB, here it is.  Jack was pleading for his life, Ennis's life, "look at what you're doing to us".     But did Jack really understand what Ennis sacrificed?  And his sacrifice was so much more profound.  Ennis gave up his entire life, for the both of them.     He may have said it in clumsy way, not eloquently, "It's because of you I'm like this", "I'm no where."  He breaks down.   Every move Ennis ever made in life, was gear to being with Jack.  His fears of what would happen to them both was always a factor, but he lived within the limitations of that, but his love and need for Jack was so over whelming that he couldn't let him go, nor would he.   

Jack had it better off, his money gave the confort live a little better on the mountain.  better tents, better food, shooting elk for the pleasure of the hunt, and not for survival.  Ennis was still carry his belongings in sacks.  Ennis was boarding the horses, but how much do you think that cost him, a lot, or was he still bartering so he can keep the horses, so they can ride together.   Was he living in a nice house, like Jack, or a rundown shack?   He made connections with no one, his whole being belonged to Jack.   

With all of this, Jack is seeing Randall on the side.  If Jack just had a glimpse of Ennis's life would he have understood just how much this man loved him?     

[tpe]

I think by that final scene Jack was so frustrated and angry, confronted yet again by Ennis's intransigence and unable to see why he refused even to try to move on, that saying what he did in a fit of bravado was less premeditated than instinctive. It's as if he's given up the effort to keep his secrets and no longer cares what Ennis knows. Equally he seems no longer to care about Ennis's propensity to erupt into violence - maybe after all the pain he's suffered that wouldn't matter to him. He's also challenging Ennis over Mexico - well, if you treat me like this, what do you expect me to do? But he doesn;t mention Randall, who is real and if Ennis wanted to get-at-able - anyone in Mexico is far away and impossible to find - Randall isn't. Randall's also part of Jack's life in Childress, from which Ennis has always been excluded, and part of what Jack would have left to go back to if it all ended with Ennis.

Challenging Ennis about Mexico was a sure sign that Jack had had it.  It also shows that he was no longer willing to back down on the matter of own needs and desires.  This certainly indicates to me that that confrontation with Ennis was no longer forbidden ground.  Perhaps this thing with Randall was primarily a means to this end.

Had Jack stayed with Randall in Mexicao, I would be more inclined to say that Jack was not really using this as a means of pushing Ennis against the wall.  But to bring him to LF?  So close to Ennis.  Jack must have planned this act as a ditrect challenge, no?

[tpe]

After Ennis's threat, it was like Jack said OK you SOB, here it is.  Jack was pleading for his life, Ennis's life, "look at what you're doing to us".     But did Jack really understand what Ennis sacrificed?  And his sacrifice was so much more profound.  Ennis gave up his entire life, for the both of them.     He may have said it in clumsy way, not eloquently, "It's because of you I'm like this", "I'm no where."  He breaks down.   Every move Ennis ever made in life, was gear to being with Jack.  His fears of what would happen to them both was always a factor, but he lived within the limitations of that, but his love and need for Jack was so over whelming that he couldn't let him go, nor would he.   

Jack had it better off, his money gave the confort live a little better on the mountain.  better tents, better food, shooting elk for the pleasure of the hunt, and not for survival.  Ennis was still carry his belongings in sacks.  Ennis was boarding the horses, but how much do you think that cost him, a lot, or was he still bartering so he can keep the horses, so they can ride together.   Was he living in a nice house, like Jack, or a rundown shack?   He made connections with no one, his whole being belonged to Jack.   

With all of this, Jack is seeing Randall on the side.  If Jack just had a glimpse of Ennis's life would he have understood just how much this man loved him?     

I remain unsure if Jack really knew how much Ennis lost because of his relationship with Jack.  But I do think that Jack himself didn't reamin unaffected by all this.  He also lost a great deal -- but more on the emotional level, rather than on the material end.

Sure, Jack was well-off compared to Ennis.  But I think Ennis pretty much denied himself the emotional attrition that so visibly affected Jack.  Why?  Because with Ennis, it was his choice to keep tight control over the relationship.  He pretty much called the shots.  Jack was helpless in this regard.  The short leash took its emotional toll.  In this regard, perhaps Jack suffered more than Ennis -- Jack was willing to risk all for that something that he did not control.

 

[manhattangirl]

But don't you see that what Ennis's does,  He is not look too deeply within himself type of guy, It wasn't until Jack's death  when he saw the shirts did he understand, it was in his hands,  he could hold it.   Like some men I know, that work on the premise, look at what I'm doing doesn't that show you I love you.   I think that what was happening to Ennis.   It's sad in it own way.  I don't think that was much Ennis's fault,  this was how he was geared,  this is what I think Jack couldn't understand.

When he shot the elk, when told the little guy, soup instead of beans, when he offered to sleep with sheep, and Jack stay in camp.  All these things were to show Jack he cared.  And resistance to a life together, was protection for both himself, and the only person he really loved.  Don't you think that this a total misunderstanding on both their parts.

[tpe]

But don't you see that what Ennis's does,  He is not look too deeply within himself type of guy, It wasn't until Jack's death  when he saw the shirts did he understand, it was in his hands,  he could hold it.   Like some men I know, that work on the premise, look at what I'm doing doesn't that show you I love you.   I think that what was happening to Ennis.   It's sad in it own way.  I don't think that was much Ennis's fault,  this was how he was geared,  this is what I think Jack couldn't understand.

When he shot the elk, when told the little guy, soup instead of beans, when he offered to sleep with sheep, and Jack stay in camp.  All these things were to show Jack he cared.  And resistance to a life together, was protection for both himself, and the only person he really loved.  Don't you think that this a total misunderstanding on both their parts.

Hello manhattangirl.

I do suspect that Jack did understand, but simply just had it in the end.  After all, Jack was also not an introspective individual -- he took things as they came.  And I did think he appreciated Ennis's gestures and his love.

But Jack did feel things, whereas Ennis refused to trust in his feelings.  The disconnect was on the emotional level, and not on an intellectual one.  Jack felt that they could make it work together, whereas Ennis wouldn't listen to how he felt inside.  It was this that Jack sought to tear down, I think, when he started planning to move on.  For Ennis to be confronted with the loss of Jack could have moved him to finally connect with his heart, rather than with his fear.  And I think Jack's death did precisely that. 

Jack I think did want Ennis to finally come to grips with himself and react.  Even in death, I think Jack would have wanted that.

[welshwitch]

Sometimes in the end you're just a prisoner of what genetics and experience have made you; however much you'd like to be differnet, you're controlled by the past and your own make-up. "I am a part of all that I have met," so to speak.Ennis can't break away from that; equally Jack can;t break away from the very different character his make-up and life have made him. And neither comes from a highly-vervbalizing culture - talking, or shouting, is often what you resort to when all else fails. When Ennis says he's spoken more to Jack than he would do in a year, that's no doubt true - this is a society where people don't talk things out or through. If Jack had felt able to express the emotional and sexual deprivation Ennis caused him, and Ennis had been able to explain what he felt he'd sacrificed in material and occupational terms,they might have had a serious but non-aggressive discussion and learned to understand each other better.

[manhattangirl]

Sometimes in the end you're just a prisoner of what genetics and experience have made you; however much you'd like to be differnet, you're controlled by the past and your own make-up. "I am a part of all that I have met," so to speak.Ennis can't break away from that; equally Jack can;t break away from the very different character his make-up and life have made him. And neither comes from a highly-vervbalizing culture - talking, or shouting, is often what you resort to when all else fails. When Ennis says he's spoken more to Jack than he would do in a year, that's no doubt true - this is a society where people don't talk things out or through. If Jack had felt able to express the emotional and sexual deprivation Ennis caused him, and Ennis had been able to explain what he felt he'd sacrificed in material and occupational terms,they might have had a serious but non-aggressive discussion and learned to understand each other better.

I totally agree but:

In the final confrontation scene didn't Jack do just that,  he eloquently pleaded his case, things unsaid finally brought up.   Ennis facing a wrath from his lover of 20 years, telling him "what you're giving me in not enough".   Ennis saying to him, "but look at all I lost".  Randall stage left,  August moved to November, Jack wishing for a way to loosen Ennis's grip. 

Was Jack really strong enough to let Ennis go?



 

[tpe]

Was Jack really strong enough to let Ennis go?

manhattangirl,  good question.  I would like to think not.  After all, he did try in the 4 years before the reunion.

A bit OT, but this reminds me of Houseman's poem:


Because I liked you better
Than suits a man to say,
It irked you, and I promised
To throw the thought away.

To put the world between us
We parted, stiff and dry;
"Good-bye," said you, "forget me."
"I will, no fear," said I.

[aintfoolin]

Beautiful and appropriate poem. This question prompts an interesting  scenario in my mind. Say for instance Jack did'nt die and just  for instance decided that Ennis was'nt going to come around and moved on with (EEEK) with Randall instead , leaving Ennis . Either way , he'd be gone forever from Ennis's life. We see Ennis's reaction to Jack's death . Utter devastation....and obvliously an " If I could do it all over again"  look written on his face. My question is: Would the loss in either of these cases make a difference in how Ennis would react  or respond to a 2nd chance with Jack?  In other words ,would Enns's  sense of loss be equal? Propel him into  making the same decision ? Or is it that as long as Jack is alive somewhere in the world , Ennis would always believe he could get Jack back any time he wanted? ? ? Is Ennis strong enough to let  Jack's love go if Jack lived? Seek him out months or ...even years later?  Was Jack strong enough to let him go?  Really don't know , but major changes in the relationship would most definitly occur one way or the other. Lots more questions and neverending wonder.  That is this film. Amazing!  my 2 cents.

[greenfrog]

Because I liked you better
Than suits a man to say,
It irked you, and I promised
To throw the thought away.

To put the world between us
We parted, stiff and dry;
"Good-bye," said you, "forget me."
"I will, no fear," said I.

I'm going to start crying in a minute.

 :\'(  :\'(  :\'(

[tpe]

Beautiful and appropriate poem. This question prompts an interesting  scenario in my mind. Say for instance Jack did'nt die and just  for instance decided that Ennis was'nt going to come around and moved on with (EEEK) with Randall instead , leaving Ennis . Either way , he'd be gone forever from Ennis's life. We see Ennis's reaction to Jack's death . Utter devastation....and obvliously an " If I could do it all over again"  look written on his face. My question is: Would the loss in either of these cases make a difference in how Ennis would react  or respond to a 2nd chance with Jack?  In other words ,would Enns's  sense of loss be equal? Propel him into  making the same decision ? Or is it that as long as Jack is alive somewhere in the world , Ennis would always believe he could get Jack back any time he wanted? ? ? Is Ennis strong enough to let  Jack's love go if Jack lived? Seek him out months or ...even years later?  Was Jack strong enough to let him go?  Really don't know , but major changes in the relationship would most definitly occur one way or the other. Lots more questions and neverending wonder.  That is this film. Amazing!  my 2 cents.

Although the writers may have intended Jack's moving on to be final, I still think that possibilities remained open so long as both of them lived.  Had Jack lived, it is hard for me to think that he would have been gone forever.  Proximity is part of the reason.  Jack was moving closer rather than further.  And I don't think Ennis would have let go that easily.  After all, he probably sent the postcard reminding Jack about November when he heard nothing from him.

So long as both of them lived, there was a chance that they would again be together.  I think both of them must have realized that.  It was probably part of the reason why Jack persisted for nearly 20 years.

[welshwitch]

The other thing, about which I know nothing so this is really a question, is that things were changing in society, had changed by the eighties. Would it still have been as dangerous and unusual for Jack and Ennis to buy a ranch together? Maybe if ennis saw Randall as a real threat and Jack pointed out other possibilities for himself and Ennis, Ennis might have taken the plunge.

[tpe]

The other thing, about which I know nothing so this is really a question, is that things were changing in society, had changed by the eighties. Would it still have been as dangerous and unusual for Jack and Ennis to buy a ranch together? Maybe if ennis saw Randall as a real threat and Jack pointed out other possibilities for himself and Ennis, Ennis might have taken the plunge.

In places like Wyoming, it probably would have been dangerous.  I do think Ennis's fears were not totally imaginary.  But I still think he should have taken the risk.  There are worse things than dying.

[aintfoolin]

Personally I think after that last meeting both Jack and Ennis had very hard choices to make. Ennis would be required go against his "set in stone" philosophy  to not keep "standing it" and start fixing it somehow , to be  vulnerable ,putting his fears aside  and weighing what he and Jack have against them. Jack on the other hand would have to weigh his own options , (Randall) ... and whatever they could offer each other. other than the physical aspect ( and  assumming  Randall was even willing, and serious about  settling down  somewhere with Jack.. we don't really know,) against the hope that Ennis can really let go of his fears but, could he accept that there is no guarantee that Ennis could  really do it. Could Jack trust Ennis's will in the kind of  life he wanted? Stuck between a rock and a hard place ,yet past his limit with the status quo ,I think that Jack needed and wanted , +deserved a full life  after giving Ennis a 20 year grace period,  but he'd  be caught between a man he did'nt really love ,..but could give him the stability he craved ,..and the one he truly loved but  who was maybe unable to fully commit to him. Which brings us back to the same question of can either one let go and move on without the other? IMO there would have to be a compromise on both their parts ,work with each other, but I know neither are  "touchy,feely" communicators.  What that  plan would be I don't know. Otherwise neither could ever be happy and satisfied with their choices long term . Sadly Jack's death eliminated any hope for a sweet life for either of them :\'( :\'(

[manhattangirl]

What really bothers me is that "boggy man in the night" side of Ennis that really drives me crazy.   OK, we discuss the fears of Ennis, but it was a phobia.  Ennis was tough, a fighter.  Jack wasn't,  but Jack was willing to tread dangerous territory, that Ennis wasn't.    Jack was the stronger one.   Jack found his courage, he evolved like his appearance.    That's a  threat in it self to see your lover slowly moving on, moving away from you.  Ennis must have been desperate, just trying to hold on to him.   

Jack played his cards close to the vest.   He had a whole life aside from Ennis that he went back to, if Randall was part of it,  so be it.  Ennis was still in '63, declaring "I'm not queer", and would remain there, Jack wasn't he refuse to be, he got off that mountain.

[aintfoolin]

One thing Jack learned while bull riding was you will get thrown off sometimes , but you don't stay down. you get up, dust off and get back on  again and again. This what he did....and ride till those 8 seconds make you a winner, There was  a payoff in the end in response to the effort, but with Ennis ,... as in his reply to Jack's rodeo efforts " what's the point ridin a peice of stock for 8 secs. ?"  Just coul'nt see that the relationship must move to the next level. Jack was determined  not to stay a loser,  while riding bulls or in real life , but I totally agree with you that Ennis can drive a person crazy. ( he makes me yell at the TV screen) , but I still so love this character.  He's SO complicated it's hard to know exactly what he's thinking. His mind becomes an analyzing machine. Nothing is simple for him when it comes to  Jack and their love affair, Each element has it's own  little compartment in his mind and he must  analyze  each and every one of them. Jack sees what he wants and simply goes after it  and eventually gets it most of the time.... Until he met Ennis.  He is one stubborn peice of work. His fears or phobic tendencies proved a major challenge for Jack. I very much admire Jacj's  patience and I also understand Ennis's side too, but every one has their limits. Jack finally reached his.  Randall was  simply an alternative to Ennis for Jack. A small sign of hope for himself just in case....well you know.My thoughts.

[tpe]

The analogy with the rodeo and Jack's relationship with Ennis is so vert apt, no?

Jack was riding out the relationship for most of the almost 20 years.  But the ride can also symbolize Jack's yearning for a life with someone.  Would his moving on to Randal signify a new twist to the ride, or does it in fact signify that the ride was over?

[aintfoolin]

 Jack got thrown off many times by Ennis  and it hurt. yet he continued to try to reach that 8 second mark, but after 20 years he began to realize  that maybe there would be no payoff for all his efforts. This "bull" (Ennis) proved too much of a challenge and Jack's hope that he could win began to wane.  Randall did sigify a new twist to the riding. A whole new different rodeo for Jack. Certainly one who would at least not buck him so hard., and one whom Jack could finally receive a " payoff "  of hope for the efforts he put forward although that "payoff" would not be as satisfying in the matters  of Jack's heart. There was a method to Ennis's madness and Jack saw it. I think he would always continue to want that tougher challenge  and wonder how he could have broken that stubborn will and ride free WITH Ennis , not against each other, for that is where his heart belonged.I love these analogies as Jack's occupations put forth. He was also a salesman but don't get me started! My thoughts.

[tpe]

Jack got thrown off many times by Ennis  and it hurt. yet he continued to try to reach that 8 second mark, but after 20 years he began to realize  that maybe there would be no payoff for all his efforts. This "bull" (Ennis) proved too much of a challenge and Jack's hope that he could win began to wane.  Randall did sigify a new twist to the riding. A whole new different rodeo for Jack. Certainly one who would at least not buck him so hard., and one whom Jack could finally receive a " payoff "  of hope for the efforts he put forward although that "payoff" would not be as satisfying in the matters  of Jack's heart. There was a method to Ennis's madness and Jack saw it. I think he would always continue to want that tougher challenge  and wonder how he could have broken that stubborn will and ride free WITH Ennis , not against each other, for that is where his heart belonged.I love these analogies as Jack's occupations put forth. He was also a salesman but don't get me started! My thoughts.

aintfoolin, so you did think that this signified the end of Jack's "ride" with Ennis, and not just a ploy to finally rein in the "bull"? 

I would certainly want to hear your ideas about Jack being a salesman and how that may signify something about his relationship with Ennis and Randall. 

[welshwitch]

When Jack eventually realized he couldn't make it as a bull-rider despite having limited success, he gave up and apparently never thought of it again. It allowed him to meet Lureen and that;s what started him i=on the salesman career. His face ( and maybe his appeal as a rodeo winner) was what attracted Lureen, but just as he didn;t make a success of bull-riding, he didn;t make a siuccess of his marriage either. But apparently he was a good salesman - i know about Lureen's sotto voce "the only one, in fact" but I don't see LD keeping Jack on if he was no good.

But the two things are so differnt - bull-riding is all about strength and determination whereas being a salesman is all about selling yourself and with that the product. To most people it suggests pushiness and insincerity - so did Jack have those qualities?