Topic: If Ennis knew Randall was moving in on Jack, how would he react?

[tpe]

When Jack eventually realized he couldn't make it as a bull-rider despite having limited success, he gave up and apparently never thought of it again. It allowed him to meet Lureen and that;s what started him i=on the salesman career. His face ( and maybe his appeal as a rodeo winner) was what attracted Lureen, but just as he didn;t make a success of bull-riding, he didn;t make a siuccess of his marriage either. But apparently he was a good salesman - i know about Lureen's sotto voce "the only one, in fact" but I don't see LD keeping Jack on if he was no good.

But the two things are so differnt - bull-riding is all about strength and determination whereas being a salesman is all about selling yourself and with that the product. To most people it suggests pushiness and insincerity - so did Jack have those qualities?

I think that they don't really reflect Jack as a person.  What it did reflect was that Jack was willing to compromise and move on, leaving behind something for another in pursuit of his dream.  I think this was what he wanted Ennis to realize about him -- that he would move on even if he didn't want to.  This is in contradistinction to Ennis's attitude of unchanging fidelity to his view of himself and the world.  That is why I tend to think that Ennis would not have reacted well to Jack's plans, since it was something unthinkable as far as he was concerned. 

[aintfoolin]

WW ,I am speaking in context of how Jack used these same qualities he had in both his occupations (as analogys at times), toward success.  ,and interwoved them into his real life  and relationship with Ennis. Yes, Jack was a strong minded person. He was a determined person also . Jack did not give up easily if he saw something he really wanted. He wanted Ennis . He made sure that he found out everything he could about him  inside and out in his  own way. Then fell in love with what he saw. It took those two qualites, strength and determination ( and some patience) to allow Ennis to fall  deeply in love with him too. Goodness knows he got thrown off track several times.  got hurt, had his feelins stomped into the ground and rejected,  but he never gave up that someday ,he will win big and live with Ennis  together on their own ranch. As for his salesmanship qualities?,I ask you, What tougher customer could Jack find than Ennis Del Mar? He was a stubborn peice of work. Set in his ways, hard to read,  hard to convince  and complicated to the max.  But Ennis had a wounded soul. Jack used his best pitch . Armed with the ability to match the right product to his toughest customer ,he got  Ennis to buy what he was selling, he used his wonderful charm, his grace, his freindship,  his trust , knew when to give space,  honesty and  even his funny goofiness ( got Ennis to laugh with that wild  rodeo impression)  but most of all his love, Ennis fell so deep that his whole  real world  was changed . Jack himself  WAS the product. He was Lureen;s best salesman in business and he used those same charming qualties to snare Ennis. He sold HIMSELF to Ennis  No pretense, no insincerity or pushiness to be found. and Ennis definitly bought in.  He fell ... hook, line, and sinker. I loved em. My thoughts.

[aintfoolin]

You may ask what all this has to do with he and Randall . Jack had not the history nor the  experience with Randall that he had with Ennis. In this case, it was Randall soliciting Jack. He must have seen something he liked obviously.. But whatever it was, Jack did'nt have to  do any convincing , I think it was simlpy Randall being at the right place at the right time with a very vulnerable Jack. He just lucked out..IMHO

[manhattangirl]

 Ennis possessiveness of his love for Jack,  Jack straining against it, and wanting it at the same time would have locked them in this situation for the rest of their lives.    Brokeback was all they had, Jack knew it, and that's was what he feared and what he fought against.   Randall could take him away from this. 

[tpe]

You may ask what all this has to do with he and Randall . Jack had not the history nor the  experience with Randall that he had with Ennis. In this case, it was Randall soliciting Jack. He must have seen something he liked obviously.. But whatever it was, Jack did'nt have to  do any convincing , I think it was simlpy Randall being at the right place at the right time with a very vulnerable Jack. He just lucked out..IMHO

If Ennis knew about Randall, could he really have felt threatened then?  After all, all that had passed between him and Jack could not have been for nought...

I think there was an inherent insecurity at the heart of Ennis's love: an insecurity based on the fact that he was never really loved for a great part of his growing up (with his parents dead and his brother and sister preoccupied with other things).  When Jack came into his life, he probably felt for the first time in a long while the joy of being truly loved, and he was instinctively jealous and possessive of it. 

[manhattangirl]

Please take a hard look at what's been said.  Now remember Jack and Ennis, who is the vulnerable one this time?  And remember what happened when your needs outweights the reality.  Who needs to be truly loved and secure?  Who is there to open another world for them? 

[aintfoolin]

Your correct . How far could Jack push it and still remain within the boundaries of Ennis's forgivness? He knew good and well that Randall was out of bounds as far as Ennis was concerned, and any other body who Jack dared to find comfort with.  This was Ennis's stubborn possessiveness at play.  Jack had fear too. of loosing Ennis completely  if Ennis ever found out that he had stepped over the line. ( the short leash) but he needed sexual healing from someone ,...and more than Ennis was able to provide him.  Randall filled that void for Jack so ...he lied about it. Brokeback was only the beginning, it was'nt meant to be all there was to this thing for Jack. He was ready to move on to the next phase of their love. A partnership. A real life together.  But Ennis ..oh that Ennis  Del Mar,..was still on that mountain , and as long as he was  there, he was safe and free. Jack was safe  and free too.. take no chances. Isolated from the world with only Jack.  was'nt willing to step out of that real life fantasy and move alongside Jack neck and neck, shoulder to shoulder to the next highest  level.  Maybe Jack thought Randall  could instead.  Jack wanted the one he really  loved there,  fighting whatever battles they faced  together with him.  Yes , Ennis  did sacrifice alot to be with Jack but in a way it was like prolonging the inevidible showdown which eventually came  anyway by remaining in this shell. He was such a complicated individual.  I loved this character of Ennis but did not like the position he forced  sweet Jack into. They both deserved better. No blame, but just my opinion.

[tpe]

Please take a hard look at what's been said.  Now remember Jack and Ennis, who is the vulnerable one this time?  And remember what happened when your needs outweights the reality.  Who needs to be truly loved and secure?  Who is there to open another world for them? 

Ennis held all the cards, and he could have played them right had he been bolder and less haunted by past traumas and imaginwed fears.  So I guess Jack was in a more vulnerable position, in the sense that he had shown his cards and could do nothing but wait, else leave the table and lose.

Would you agree?

[manhattangirl]

Did Ennis hold all the cards?  We're talking "what If", so what if Jack lived, and had a relationship with Randall, even moving back LF, but still continue with Ennis, going to him once or twice a year. Wouldn't the dynamics of power change?  Both Randall and Ennis  wanting Jack, loving him, and Jack becoming another Ennis, refusing to make decision, wanting a life with Randall, because with him he had that life, understanding and believing Ennis wouldn't change, but still couldn't give him up.

Would Jack become a slave to both men, or would they wait for Jack to make up his mind, what would Ennis give up for him, so he would make that decision?   

   

[tpe]

Did Ennis hold all the cards?  We're talking "what If", so what if Jack lived, and had a relationship with Randall, even moving back LF, but still continue with Ennis, going to him once or twice a year. Wouldn't the dynamics of power change?  Both Randall and Ennis  wanting Jack, loving him, and Jack becoming another Ennis, refusing to make decision, wanting a life with Randall, because with him he had that life, understanding and believing Ennis wouldn't change, but still couldn't give him up.

Would Jack become a slave to both men, or would they wait for Jack to make up his mind, what would Ennis give up for him, so he would make that decision?   

   

If Jack had gone with Randall and had he kept on seeing Ennis, he would have gained nothing and lost more.  It would simply prove to himself that he could not move on, and he would live with his heart and will divided.  IT would not have mattered if either he told Ennis or not about Randall.  If he did tell Ennis, and Ennis didn't react, that would even be a greater loss of face for Jack, because it would show that he needed Ennis more than Ennis needed him.  Had he not told Ennis, he would be at the mercy of his own fears revolving around Ennis ever finding out, and he would thuis have to live a double life.  If he told Ennis and Ennis reacted violently, again, Jack would be on the losing end, since he may lose Ennis entirely.  The only possibility that Jack would win is that his living with Randall would convince Ennis to change heart and finally agree to a shared life with Jack.  So if you weigh the probabilities and possible outcomes, the odds are stacked against Jack, unfortunately.

[welshwitch]

What if, hypothetically, Jack moved back to Lightning Flat with Randall and didn't respond to any messages from Ennis? What if he decided that Ennis was never going to change and he was merely hurting himself by keeping on hoping that he would? What if he thought that Randall really cared about him and settled for that?

Would Ennis have done anything then to try to get Jack back?

Or would he accept that Randall had "won" by being prepared to commit and take risks he wouldn't?

[tpe]

What if, hypothetically, Jack moved back to Lightning Flat with Randall and didn't respond to any messages from Ennis? What if he decided that Ennis was never going to change and he was merely hurting himself by keeping on hoping that he would? What if he thought that Randall really cared about him and settled for that?

Would Ennis have done anything then to try to get Jack back?

Or would he accept that Randall had "won" by being prepared to commit and take risks he wouldn't?

I would think Jack would have come back to Ennis.  Jack probably wouldn't have been able to resist a change of heart.

I think the battle would have been far from over in any case...

[manhattangirl]

Neither man, Jack or Ennis, ever made a hard choice as far their relationship was concerned,  the changes in their "other"  life happened, like Ennis's divorce, Jack's occasionally trips to Mexico, and his own troubled marriage.  But they still found the time, no matter what was going on in their troubled lives to be with each other. The one thing IMO would not change is that Jack would still go to Ennis, even being with Randall.  They needed each other, fed off each other, and lived for that week they would be together.  The need for each other was way too strong for either of them to stop, no matter what was going on.

That was the one amazing thing about their love, is the way they loved. 

[tpe]

Then you think that Ennis would get over any initial feelings of betrayal if he found out about Randall, no?

I believe that, in spite of his threat, Ennis would still have loved Jack.  Likewise, I believe that even with Randall, Jack would not cease to love Ennis.

 

[manhattangirl]

Then you think that Ennis would get over any initial feelings of betrayal if he found out about Randall, no?

I believe that, in spite of his threat, Ennis would still have loved Jack.  Likewise, I believe that even with Randall, Jack would not cease to love Ennis.

Oh yes, this goes without saying.  They loved each other and always will.  But Ennis gave no signs throughout their relationship  or at any point did he ask Jack to change any thing, promise anything, swear to anything.  He would have no choice but to accept it because if  he didn't, he knew he would lose all he had with Jack.  We all know how much Ennis needed Jack, he gave up so much for him, he couldn't and wouldn't lose him.

I know this could bring moral issues such as faithfulness, commitment, all sorts of questions.  But this our what if question, is there really an answer? 

[aintfoolin]

This is very interesting  Of course this all speculation If Jack decided to quit Ennis and go with Randall no doubt this would be the ultimate test of Ennis's love. The question was asked: What would Ennis give up to be back with Jack? Unfortunatly It would depend on alot of factors imo. Assuming Ennis finds out about it and I think he would, because Jack would have to have that long dreaded talk with Ennis that he had found someone else. I don't think at that point Jack would try to hide it from Ennis anymore. In the case that Jack is only using being with Randall to get Ennis to commit Jack would be looked upon as a user by both men . Another factor would be How close have randall and Jack become? Jack could possibly love Randall and Ennis at the same time I's possible but I don't see him spending time or sleeping with both at this point. He had talked enough now it was his turn to show Ennis that he means business. Personally, i think before things went to far ( example: Randall moving Jack far away from Ennis , cutting contact, and showering him with so much love and attention. Ennis may quickly feel  that his theory of " standing it"  not fixing it" with Jack may deserve a second look. Rather than allowing A love to grow between Jack and Randall, I think Ennis pride, jealousy, and the devastating thought that he had lost Jack forever would have Ennis crawling back on his hands and knees, begging Jack to not only take him back but for forgivness,  Jack would then hold all the cards. I think he would play them in Ennis's favor but only if he thinks Ennis is serious... He'd make sure he was before he gave up Randall and demand proof of that. Afterall after death Ennis broke down and went to LF , actually left Riverton to see Jack's parents, so he is capable of making serious decisions when he has to. He'd have found Jack again. My opinion.

[welshwitch]

Yes, but the salient point is that it WAS only after Jack's death that he went to LF. He was perhaps acknowledging to the Twists that he was the one Jack had loved, but they probably knew that already. There were no possible consequences, besides possibly coming back again to see them as Mr Twist asked him to. Let's face it, Jack's parents were hardly likely to do anything other than keep quiet about the whole thing even after Ennis had been there.

I've got to the point of thinking that it needed Jack to be dead before Ennis would openly acknowledge what he'd felt for him, because that was the only point at which he couldn't be expected to do anything about it.

[manhattangirl]

Yes, but the salient point is that it WAS only after Jack's death that he went to LF. He was perhaps acknowledging to the Twists that he was the one Jack had loved, but they probably knew that already. There were no possible consequences, besides possibly coming back again to see them as Mr Twist asked him to. Let's face it, Jack's parents were hardly likely to do anything other than keep quiet about the whole thing even after Ennis had been there.

I've got to the point of thinking that it needed Jack to be dead before Ennis would openly acknowledge what he'd felt for him, because that was the only point at which he couldn't be expected to do anything about it.

And this is exactly the point.  I could see Jack taking Randall with him to LF and having a life with him. I could see Jack going to Brokeback a few times a years to be with Ennis unwilling or unable to stop.   I could see Jack writing a post card to Ennis, "I got my divorce, see you in November", and Ennis waiting for him.  I don't see Ennis getting in his pick-up, With "King of the Road" playing on the radio,driving to LF,  it just wouldn't happen.   The question then becomes would Randall accept Jack's trips to Brokeback without him, would he understand Jack needed this time.  Would Ennis understand when Jack leaves him, he is having a life with someone who was willing to do what he feared most.  Remember marriage did not stop these men from being with each other.   What could be the difference now? 

[tpe]

There is no one answer to our "what if" question, but there are a number of probably scenearios

Somehow, I have this feeling that Jack could possibly try to stop seeing Ennis if Randall did go with him to LF.  Would he be able to do this indefinitely?  I guess it depends on how much his relationship with Randall develops and whether he attains the satisfaction of a shared life that we was unable to share with Ennis.  Persoannly, I feel it is unlikely that he would be able to forget Ennis entirely so quickly, so the scenario of Jack seeing Ennis while living with Randall is a most reasonable temporary scenario.  Would Randall have allowed this?  Perhaps Jack would try to keep this hidden initially.  After all, Jack is not new to leading multiple lives. But I suspect that if Randall's feelings for Jack grow deeper, then it is likely that some sort of confrontation between Randall and Jack about Ennis would become inevitable.  Given how much Jack values his dream of a sweet life, I would think that Randall would inevitably win out if ENnis persisted on keeping Jack at a distance.  All this is speculation and probabilities.  All of this in no way negates the statement that Jack will forever love Ennis.

[manhattangirl]

All of this in no way negates the statement that Jack will forever love Ennis.

And this point is the underlying factor in our "What If" question.  This would not have changed.  How would they live, how would they manage their emotions, their needs?  Would there be concessions?  What small victories, or defeats ?  You're right there are so many scenarios.  Maybe I just don't want to end here.

[JT]

I think Ennis would explode if he found out that Jack has another lover.  Perhaps it would wake him up that it's possible to lose Jack to someone else.  It would be a nice change for Jack to hold the cards for once.

[greenfrog]

I think Ennis would explode if he found out that Jack has another lover.  Perhaps it would wake him up that it's possible to lose Jack to someone else.  It would be a nice change for Jack to hold the cards for once.

When I try to invision Ennis finding out about Randall, I picture him almost having a heart attack. It think it would almost have killed him (in one way or another) to find out that Jack was with another man.

Poor Ennis. It was all just too much for him to cope with.

 :\'(  :\'(  :\'(

[tpe]

And this point is the underlying factor in our "What If" question.  This would not have changed.  How would they live, how would they manage their emotions, their needs?  Would there be concessions?  What small victories, or defeats ?  You're right there are so many scenarios.  Maybe I just don't want to end here.

I think that if Ennis persisted, Jack would have probably stopped seeing Ennis.   To accomplish this, Jack and Randall may have to leave LF and go out of state.  If they continued to live in LF, there was a lways a chance that Ennis would try to see Jack.

Remember what happened when Ennis did not show up the summer after 63?  Jack left Wyoming and went to Texas.  I am sure part of the reason for this was to try to forget.  And Ennis did not try to seek him out, being more passive than Jack in the pursuit of their relationship.



 

[tpe]

I think Ennis would explode if he found out that Jack has another lover.  Perhaps it would wake him up that it's possible to lose Jack to someone else.  It would be a nice change for Jack to hold the cards for once.

Or he would be so angry that he would cut off communication with Jack entirely -- well, at least for a while.  Knowing how stubborn Ennis is, it may be a while...

[tpe]

When I try to invision Ennis finding out about Randall, I picture him almost having a heart attack. It think it would almost have killed him (in one way or another) to find out that Jack was with another man.

Poor Ennis. It was all just too much for him to cope with.

 :\'(  :\'(  :\'(

Knowledge of Jack having trysts with prostitutes was distasteful, but not unbearable for Ennis.  But yes, outright confirmation of Jack living with someone else would have rattled Ennis.

[welshwitch]

"That was in another country, and besides the wench is dead." A seventeenth-century answer to the accussation"Thous hast committed fornication."

I think this is Ennis's attitude - Mexico is a long way away and these men there have no concrete existence in his mind - remember that Ennis had only traveled " round the coffee-pot looking for the handle" according to him. Mexico might as well have been the moon as far as he was concerned.

Randall, on the other hand, lived in the same place as Jack, might go with him to Lightning Flat; it's even possible that Ennis could see the two of them together. And that's the real world, here and now, and Ennis would be forced to confront it. I think he'd explode in rage and possibly violence - against Randall, of course, not Jack.

[tpe]

"That was in another country, and besides the wench is dead." A seventeenth-century answer to the accussation"Thous hast committed fornication."

I think this is Ennis's attitude - Mexico is a long way away and these men there have no concrete existence in his mind - remember that Ennis had only traveled " round the coffee-pot looking for the handle" according to him. Mexico might as well have been the moon as far as he was concerned.

Randall, on the other hand, lived in the same place as Jack, might go with him to Lightning Flat; it's even possible that Ennis could see the two of them together. And that's the real world, here and now, and Ennis would be forced to confront it. I think he'd explode in rage and possibly violence - against Randall, of course, not Jack.

I fear that Ennis may forget himself and in anger do Jack harm.  He was capable of doing this, as in the fight up on BBM.  And of course, there is his threat... 

Ennis does seem to be impulsive and it is plausible that he may do something in anger that he would normally consider unthinkable.  Seeing Jack together with Randall would be such as case that can bring out the worst in him.  This is why I think Jack bringing Randall up to LF (so close to Ennis relative to Mexico) was tantamount to a provocation.

 

[JT]

I assume he would get violent with Randall and perhaps Jack too, but I'm sure Jack, or Randall, could hold his own.  Would Ennis be able to stand it?  Would he have fought for Jack or would he break down and dump Jack completely?  We saw him breaking down already when Jack attacked him with that speech.  Would seeing Jack with Randall open up his eyes enough for him to see Jack's dream with himself in it?  Although it's a long shot, it's possible, I think.

[CrimsonSky]

I think Ennis had already figured out that there was no ranch foreman's "wife", sometime between the final confrontation and the scene with Cassie in the diner. Ennis might not have been well educated, but he wasn't stupid, he would've re-played that conversation over and over in his head and would've put the pieces together. Jack needed to have sex with men, he went all the way to Mexico for it, why would he risk "getting shot by Lureen or the husband" to have sex with a woman, when it wasn't what he really wanted or needed? (ok, getting shot is probably an exaggeration, but it still would've caused a whole lot of trouble if he'd got found out). And Ennis says "All them things I don't know..." ,plural, implies that he thought there was more to know than just Mexico, and Jack's "...if you don't ever know the rest" suggests he was right.
So I think Ennis worked out that it was the ranch foreman himself that Jack was involved with, but it wasn't until the scene with Cassie that it occurs to him that this guy could actually be a threat. Cassie makes it clear that she loved Ennis, and probably still loves him, but she eventually accepted that he couldn't give her what she needed and decided to cut her losses and move on, with the guy in the diner, who even though she says "he's nice... he even talks" you get the feeling she sees him as second choice to Ennis. Alma did much the same, stayed with Ennis for as long as she could, tried to make it work, but eventually had to admit defeat and moved on to Monroe (ok, arguably Alma "traded up" with Monroe, but I still think she would've preferred it if she could've had that life with Ennis). Ennis knew that he couldn't be what Alma or Cassie wanted him to be, because of Jack, but he couldn't be what Jack wanted him to be either, couldn't give Jack what he needed. Did it cross Ennis's mind then that maybe Jack too would get to the point where he felt he had to cut his losses and settle for second best, now that there was someone else in the frame who might be more than willing to take that second place? If Randall was willing to take the risk involved in having an affair with Jack, chances are he would also be prepared to take the risk of them living together, and after Jack's saying he wished he could quit Ennis, would Jack have turned down the chance to do just that, if Randall offered it to him? (As I've said before, I think the suggestion of Jack and Randall living together could likely have come from Randall, maybe not moving to LF, that would be a bit presumptuous, being Jack's parents' place, but at least the idea of them ranching up together somewhere could have been Randall's)
So I think all these questions going round in Ennis's head, added to the fact that he hadn't had a postcard from Jack about November, aroused an anxiety in Ennis which made him send the postcard to Jack, to remind him that he was still there, that he was looking forward to seeing him, and that if Jack was making plans that didn't involve him, to hold on until November. I think that had they met in November, Ennis would've demanded answers from Jack about Randall, and more than likely lashed out with his fists when Jack confirmed Ennis's suspicions, but Jack would've hit back, physically and verbally, giving Ennis the choice of either losing Jack for good, or finally forgetting about having to stand it, and fixing it once and for all, always and forever. I have to believe that he would've chosen the latter, if only he'd had the chance... :\'(

[manhattangirl]

   Crimsonsky,

No matter how painful your assessment is, it's so true.   Jack left too many signals for Ennis not to figure out what was going on with him.  With the "I'm not you." statement, Ennis had have figured Jack was not the type to be alone. It also showed, (and please tell me if I'm wrong.)  That Ennis no matter what,  is the type of man that when he loves someone his heart and body belongs to that person, the thought of being with some one else is not possible, and there are men like this.  This idea must have torn at Ennis, but his inability, to move forward stymied any chance to move towards making a commitment to a future of living together  with Jack. 

I also agree with Crimsonsky, Ennis made the unusual move as to write to Jack to confirm the meeting in November, he must have been desperate at this point.  Not knowing his lover was gone from him forever, he must felt something was wrong.  Ennis must have felt a new kind of fear.

CrimsonSky I love your post.