Topic: If Ennis knew Randall was moving in on Jack, how would he react?

[manhattangirl]

Then we're looking for an inner nobility in Ennis, that I've must have missed.   I could see it in Jack's eyes after the final confrontation as he watched Ennis drive away, there I could see that stoic nature in Jack, he could let Ennis slip away from him to end the torture they were putting themselves through.   I just don't see that in Ennis.   

 If Ennis was faced with the  idea of Randall, and knowing he could lose Jack would be the one thing that would break Ennis completely.   Jack's death left him no choice, he couldn't fix so he had to stand it. But for Jack to go to someone else, Ennis would've made Jack answer for that.  Ennis's uncontrolled emotions was all he ever had to used in situations he couldn't control.       

[lauren]

Then we're looking for an inner nobility in Ennis, that I've must have missed.   I could see it in Jack's eyes after the final confrontation as he watched Ennis drive away, there I could see that stoic nature in Jack, he could let Ennis slip away from him to end the torture they were putting themselves through.   I just don't see that in Ennis.   

 If Ennis was faced with the  idea of Randall, and knowing he could lose Jack would be the one thing that would break Ennis completely.   Jack's death left him no choice, he couldn't fix so he had to stand it. But for Jack to go to someone else, Ennis would've made Jack answer for that.  Ennis's uncontrolled emotions was all he ever had to used in situations he couldn't control.       

i totally agree....it was the look in jack's eyes after their finl\al confrontation too tat got me thinking...if jack really had lived on, would he had kept the relationship with ennis going? i can practically feel his pain and hesitation when he watched ennis walk away. jack was already planning to move back to Lightning Flat with Randall so it definitely shows that there he is willing to let ennis go and move on but the question is, will ennis let jack go too? throughout the movie, he kept sending mixed signals to jack. at one time, i really thought they would get together for real like when they were reunited after 4years...that was totally touching. i wanted to cry when they hugged but it seems that you can't have everything you wished for....ennis may have made jack answer to him if he ound out about randall but jack seems pretty determined. maybe he could make ennis see it his way....both of them had fought to keep the relationship going for 20years and throughout the 20years, they felt nothing but pain and suffering. maybe it was time to let go....

[welshwitch]

There's a saying - if you love someone, let them go. But the same has to apply to you - if you love yourself, you may have to let someone else go, either because they force you to or because they're doing you so much harm that nothing can justify continuing. From the look on his face, I wonder if as Ennis drives away, this is the point Jack is getting to - has got to even. When they parted after the divorce, Jack drove straight to Mexico. This time he's said he's going to his parents' home, but where after that? Is this going to be the time when hegoes back to Childress, leaves Lureen and strikes out on his own, or with Randall? It's 1983 - is Jack about to come out?

Ennis has always been obsessed with protecting himself - not Jack, NB, but himself, from the threat of homophobes. To challenge Randall he would have to accept that he'd have to offer Jack a real alternative, not just more years, decades even, of very occasional brief meetings. And I don't see him as capable of doing that.

[manhattangirl]

It's like some weird Eugene O'Neil play.   If Ennis wasn't going to do anything if he found Jack going with Randall, I could see Ennis sealing himself up in his trailer, resigning from the world, or the little of the world he had, and punishing himself for his love for Jack.    What would he have?   In Jack's death he have him to mourn, he would be his until his own death.  To have Jack living and loving someone else is a  sentence that may look to him as a punishment, for loving Jack, and he must suffer for it.

[tpe]

i totally, absolutely agree....knowing about jack's death through a postcard is like taking a punch in the stomach for ennis, jolting him out of his dream that only straight couples are normal. maybe if the movie were to go on, it might show that ennis is more accepting of his relationship with jack. losing jack forever may just make him realize how important jack is to him. sometimes i can't help but wonder, if ennis had a similar devastating impact like jack's death when he was still alive, it might make him want a relationship with jack more. knowing about randall might have a similar impact to jack's death since it has potential to make him lose jack forever too. maybe then, he would appreciate him more...and maybe if jack really was destined to die, at least he could have a few more days to know that ennis really loved him and was willing to sacrifice for their love. i mean, how often do you meet a guy whom you want to have a 20-year affair with? but still, like tpe said, anything is possible...he could go either way

If Jack had been given a second chance and had he lived, I woulder if the near loss of Jack would have been enough to push Ennis over the edge.  I know this may sound a bit like the standard romance plot, but I do think Ennis would have reacted differently had he gone through a situation where he nearly lost Jack.  Would knowledge of Jack and Randall have mattered to Ennis after that, I wonder?  Probably not...

But Ennis didn't get a second chance, unfortunately. When he found out about Randall from John Twist, he seemed strangely muted.  What did it matter then?  All was lost...

[tpe]

Then we're looking for an inner nobility in Ennis, that I've must have missed.   I could see it in Jack's eyes after the final confrontation as he watched Ennis drive away, there I could see that stoic nature in Jack, he could let Ennis slip away from him to end the torture they were putting themselves through.   I just don't see that in Ennis.   

 If Ennis was faced with the  idea of Randall, and knowing he could lose Jack would be the one thing that would break Ennis completely.   Jack's death left him no choice, he couldn't fix so he had to stand it. But for Jack to go to someone else, Ennis would've made Jack answer for that.  Ennis's uncontrolled emotions was all he ever had to used in situations he couldn't control.       

I do think Ennis's inner nobility (wonderful phrase!) lies elsewhere -- his is unfliching loyalty and faithfulness.  Unfortunately, loyal and faithful people tend to be very unforgiving when they themselves become a victim of unfaithfulness.  So Ennis's great strength becomes a 2-edged sword for Jack.

Jack's inner nobility was a certain expansiveness that Ennis never really had.  This expansiveness led to greater understanding, patience, and understanding.  This is why I think Jack could still have loved Ennis even after he had moved on with Randall.  There is a sense of cherish what you can and forgive all...

[tpe]

There's a saying - if you love someone, let them go. But the same has to apply to you - if you love yourself, you may have to let someone else go, either because they force you to or because they're doing you so much harm that nothing can justify continuing. From the look on his face, I wonder if as Ennis drives away, this is the point Jack is getting to - has got to even. When they parted after the divorce, Jack drove straight to Mexico. This time he's said he's going to his parents' home, but where after that? Is this going to be the time when hegoes back to Childress, leaves Lureen and strikes out on his own, or with Randall? It's 1983 - is Jack about to come out?

Ennis has always been obsessed with protecting himself - not Jack, NB, but himself, from the threat of homophobes. To challenge Randall he would have to accept that he'd have to offer Jack a real alternative, not just more years, decades even, of very occasional brief meetings. And I don't see him as capable of doing that.

Words of wisdom here WW...

I do think that Ennis may have really thought that his way was the best way of keeping their relationship intact.  His fear seemed to have taught him that if you keep thjings under wraps, then it will survive.  Part of his anger of knowing about Randall would probably center around his feeling that Jack was being totally reckless, and indeed, Jack's death may have reinforced this with Ennis...

[manhattangirl]

Words of wisdom here WW...

I do think that Ennis may have really thought that his way was the best way of keeping their relationship intact.  His fear seemed to have taught him that if you keep thjings under wraps, then it will survive.  Part of his anger of knowing about Randall would probably center around his feeling that Jack was being totally reckless, and indeed, Jack's death may have reinforced this with Ennis...

Then Ennis would have learned nothing.   In Jack, Ennis's sexual and emotional being was centered.  For the twenty years, including the four years of separation,  Ennis functioned only on what he learned from Jack.  Living what he thought was a life that should be lived, but contrary to what he had with Jack.   When Jack even hinted at the thought he fought it, but held on because with Jack this  is the only time he was really alive, even in the bad times he was feeling something.   

Jack was the only person in Ennis's life that could bring feelings out in him.  He emotional reacted to Jack, he physically reacted to Jack's touch, he could speak with Jack, whether Jack wanted to hear it or not, Ennis gave him his opinions, ask questions, talked. 

To lose this, to lose what you think is the only thing that's keeping you alive, living in the world.  What makes anyone think that he could easily walk away from it, just to hand it over to Randall?    Ennis said to Jack, "It's because of you I'm like this",   Was this accusatory, or was it fact that because of his love for him, and that he lived just for him,  this is who he was, and this was all he had.  For Ennis to resign himself to the thought he lost is hard.  Randall was tresspassing on his life,  claiming the one person Ennis thought belonged to him exclusively.   Ennis was too much of a man to let this happened.    Randall was a predator that had to be dealt with like back when they were herding sheep.   Am I wrong?




   

[tpe]

Then Ennis would have learned nothing.   In Jack, Ennis's sexual and emotional being was centered.  For the twenty years, including the four years of separation,  Ennis functioned only on what he learned from Jack.  Living what he thought was a life that should be lived, but contrary to what he had with Jack.   When Jack even hinted at the thought he fought it, but held on because with Jack this  is the only time he was really alive, even in the bad times he was feeling something.   

Jack was the only person in Ennis's life that could bring feelings out in him.  He emotional reacted to Jack, he physically reacted to Jack's touch, he could speak with Jack, whether Jack wanted to hear it or not, Ennis gave him his opinions, ask questions, talked. 

To lose this, to lose what you think is the only thing that's keeping you alive, living in the world.  What makes anyone think that he could easily walk away from it, just to hand it over to Randall?    Ennis said to Jack, "It's because of you I'm like this",   Was this accusatory, or was it fact that because of his love for him, and that he lived just for him,  this is who he was, and this was all he had.  For Ennis to resign himself to the thought he lost is hard.  Randall was tresspassing on his life,  claiming the one person Ennis thought belonged to him exclusively.   Ennis was too much of a man to let this happened.    Randall was a predator that had to be dealt with like back when they were herding sheep.   Am I wrong?

Yes, in a sense, Ennis didn't learn to move to the next level during those 20 years.  He was too content with what he had, and didn't dream of what could yet be.  And yes, I do think Jack was the only one that kept this in equilibrium, since Ennis left to himself would probably have let things slide for the most part.

It is interesting to think about how passive Ennis was most of the time, but yet can be so active at crucual points, such as the reunion and the unrealized November meeting.

Now as far as Randall is concerned, I don't think of him as a predator -- at least we don't have proof of this.  Did he even know about Ennis?  THis is unsure.  He did not seem to force anything on Jack.  He allowed Jack to think things for himself, and the idea of moving together was certainly Jack's.  In this sense, Jack was more the active agent and Randall was the passive one -- but a willing passive one, I guess.

As they say: all's fair in love and war.  Jack had the choice between Ennis and Randall.  Neither Ennis nor Randall were really the active agent in this choice.  Both were passive, by and large.  Hence, I think it is unfair to judge Randall as a predator, and to imply that Ennis "owned" Jack.  In the end, it did boil down to Jack's choice.

[manhattangirl]

Now as far as Randall is concerned, I don't think of him as a predator -- at least we don't have proof of this.  Did he even know about Ennis?  THis is unsure.  He did not seem to force anything on Jack.  He allowed Jack to think things for himself, and the idea of moving together was certainly Jack's.  In this sense, Jack was more the active agent and Randall was the passive one -- but a willing passive one, I guess.

As they say: all's fair in love and war.  Jack had the choice between Ennis and Randall.  Neither Ennis nor Randall were really the active agent in this choice.  Both were passive, by and large.  Hence, I think it is unfair to judge Randall as a predator, and to imply that Ennis "owned" Jack.  In the end, it did boil down to Jack's choice.

I'm thinking only in way Ennis might see Randall, as predator, something entering in his life, claiming what was his.   Seeing Ennis reactions to other  situations he thought was threatening do you think this would be any different?   We all agree it's Jack choice, but how far do you think Ennis would go to eliminate choice?

[tpe]

I'm thinking only in way Ennis might see Randall, as predator, something entering in his life, claiming what was his.   Seeing Ennis reactions to other  situations he thought was threatening do you think this would be any different?   We all agree it's Jack choice, but how far do you think Ennis would go to eliminate choice?

Ah, well I do think this is possible: that Ennis would consider him an interloper.  If Ennis ahd found out about Randall, I personally think he could go two ways: violently react or clam up and break off communication with Jack.  His threat seems to indicate that he would do the former, but we know that Ennis is impulsive and so he might reconsider his threat after some time.  In the long run, I think Ennis would probably be more hurt than angry about Randall.  But I think anger for him occurs suddenly, and that given time to cool off, he would probably more likely not to carry out his threat...

[welshwitch]

I agree - in the end Ennis is a stoic and a fatalist, almost - I don't think he'd actively try to change himslfl or the situation. in that last scene he says "Why don't you let me be?" and this I think indicates that he would rather have no more of the emotional turmoil that surrounds him now - too many conflicting emotions, too many demands, too much he can't explain or justify - easier to run away.

[manhattangirl]

Jack:  "I wish I knew how to quit you."

Ennis:  "Why don't you, why don't you just let me be"

How painful, wanting to let go but can't, and still wanting each other.  waiting for someone to make the next move, the first move, going in circles.  if fate hadn't step in, these two men, IMO, wouldn't have stopped.  Randall, be damned, nothing would have kept them apart.  they were unable to live without each other. Ennis wouldn't have changed, and Jack would have kept going to Brokeback to be with him.   

[welshwitch]

Tp quote Jack, "For how long?" It's already more and more difficult for Ennis to get away - that's what precipitates that final confrontation. Are they going to live the rest of their lives, specially when they age, as they've lived the twenty years up to now?

[manhattangirl]

Yes,     Walkers, wheelchair,  a tank of oxygen, they would take to be with each other.  And I like to think, if Jack would have lived and they were really old guys, the only fear Ennis would have is not have a heart attack when Jack lay next to him. 

[tpe]

In a way, it is good that we did not have to see how Ennis would have reacted to Randall.  I suspect that Ennis was also relieved that he came to know about if after Jack's death.  Did it matter after that?  When all else is said and done, it's whether you love the person that matters in the last analysis.

[aintfoolin]

We did'nt get to see that confrontation, but I admit it is one of the most intruging questions for myself. How would it look? everything layed out on the table. I'm curious to know how Ennis, the emotionless, shy, withdrawn  Ennis would deal with a threat to someone taking his beloved Jack away. THIS would be a very, very interesting scenario IMO. It would give a clear insight into this complex man.  Frankly, I'd pay to see this. His love for Jack would be tested , face to face with the person who will replace him in Jack's life. I am one who abhors violence, though it may come to that , but I'm more interested in Ennis's verbal rational. Maybe this would motivate him see what is at stake for himself and Jack who I beleive he loves. What could have been is elusive to us but it's definitly worth discussing . I love picking their minds , finding more about them....and ourselves.  Thank goodness for the ennisjack.com Forum.

[manolo]

If Ennis had known about Randall before Jack's convincing speech about "You have no idea how bad it gets," and "I wish I knew how to quit you," he might well have gone ballistic.  Afterwards, I feel that he would have understood that he had little right to keep Jack on such a short leash, considering how little the boys could get together.  When Ennis did find out about Randall after Jack's death, he seemed to absorb the shock pretty well.  When he went to Jack's room, I don't get the sense that Jack's "infidelity" was standing between them.  Ennis was managing to live with it.

I think it's interesting that Jack's supposed philandering with women didn't faze Ennis, and Jack instinctively knew this.  That's why he transposed the gender of the person he was having a thing with.  He knew better than to indicate that the person was another man.  In many same-sex relationships, by contrast, a partner's involvement with someone of the opposite sex might cause even greater jealousy than with another man.  If his partner has taken up with another man, at least he knows the field of battle, he knows how to compete.  In the case of Jack and Ennis, there seems to be a tacit agreement that whatever goes on between them and women is acceptable.  Sex with the opposite sex doesn't seem to enter the same arena as the sex the boys have with each other.  They seem quite secure about that, but if the prospect of dalliance with another male appears . . .well, you saw how Ennis reacted to Mexico.

Gearry

[manhattangirl]

When Jack ask Ennis in their last meeting, "you haven't found anybody to marry", always left me wondering about their views on woman, marriage, why did they do it.  They speak of woman, as a necessary evil, something both needed in order to live a life outside of their relationship.   It seemed out of the ordinary to live alone than being married, and both men living together totally out of the question, how crazy is that?  When they spoke of their wives, and or other woman, it was with a cool detachment.  I think Ennis heart belonged to Jack, he wasn't interested in anyone else, something I don't think he was ready to admit to Jack, and not even to himself.

Jack knew what exactly to say to Ennis, to speak of a specific man, would have sent Ennis right over the edge.  He kind of hedged his bet even speaking of Mexico, which sent Ennis over the edge and he threaten Jack with death if ever found anything about what Jack was doing away from him.  Amazing dynamic, or is it?   

 

[tpe]

If Ennis had known about Randall before Jack's convincing speech about "You have no idea how bad it gets," and "I wish I knew how to quit you," he might well have gone ballistic.  Afterwards, I feel that he would have understood that he had little right to keep Jack on such a short leash, considering how little the boys could get together.  When Ennis did find out about Randall after Jack's death, he seemed to absorb the shock pretty well.  When he went to Jack's room, I don't get the sense that Jack's "infidelity" was standing between them.  Ennis was managing to live with it.

I think it's interesting that Jack's supposed philandering with women didn't faze Ennis, and Jack instinctively knew this.  That's why he transposed the gender of the person he was having a thing with.  He knew better than to indicate that the person was another man.  In many same-sex relationships, by contrast, a partner's involvement with someone of the opposite sex might cause even greater jealousy than with another man.  If his partner has taken up with another man, at least he knows the field of battle, he knows how to compete.  In the case of Jack and Ennis, there seems to be a tacit agreement that whatever goes on between them and women is acceptable.  Sex with the opposite sex doesn't seem to enter the same arena as the sex the boys have with each other.  They seem quite secure about that, but if the prospect of dalliance with another male appears . . .well, you saw how Ennis reacted to Mexico.

Gearry

Hello manolo, and welcome!

Yes, other posts have noted the difference in attitude towards women.  And yes, I did think that it was a deliberate transposition of gender in an attempt to hide the affair with Randall from Ennis.  I had wondered out aloud before if Ennis saw through this attempt and yet kept his cool.  Perhaps this is unlikely as his reaction would have been perhaps more intense and hostile had he really known the truth, no?

[tpe]

We did'nt get to see that confrontation, but I admit it is one of the most intruging questions for myself. How would it look? everything layed out on the table. I'm curious to know how Ennis, the emotionless, shy, withdrawn  Ennis would deal with a threat to someone taking his beloved Jack away. THIS would be a very, very interesting scenario IMO. It would give a clear insight into this complex man.  Frankly, I'd pay to see this. His love for Jack would be tested , face to face with the person who will replace him in Jack's life. I am one who abhors violence, though it may come to that , but I'm more interested in Ennis's verbal rational. Maybe this would motivate him see what is at stake for himself and Jack who I beleive he loves. What could have been is elusive to us but it's definitly worth discussing . I love picking their minds , finding more about them....and ourselves.  Thank goodness for the ennisjack.com Forum.

I would have found this equally fascinationg, but very difficult to get right, no?  Would he have been able to rationalize this in any way?  Ennis can be so inarticulate, that I fear that the task might prove beyond him.  Not that he did not have any sense of natural intelligence.  It is just that he would have to rationalize all this in spite of having to face up to this emotionally also.  And we've seen that when that happened before (e.g., the sudden decision to bring the sheep down from BBM back in 63 or the Thanksgiving scene with Alma) Ennis would inevitably lash out...

[tpe]

Jack knew what exactly to say to Ennis, to speak of a specific man, would have sent Ennis right over the edge.  He kind of hedged his bet even speaking of Mexico, which sent Ennis over the edge and he threaten Jack with death if ever found anything about what Jack was doing away from him.  Amazing dynamic, or is it?   

Yes, I did think that Jack had measured Ennis exactly in this regard.  Even when they were up on BBM (after the FNIT) he knew that it was foolish to push Ennis to a position that he could not handle.  Jack's hedging about revealing an affair with Randall (couched in a rather indirect way: as an affair with the wife) is indeed a manifestation of this.  He could not hide it, but he could also not bring it out into the open.

[aintfoolin]

Ennis knew Jack was unfaithful to him with at least 2 other people. The mexican hustlers and some ranch foreman's wife ( LaShawn) . He showed his jealous streak concerning the hustlers, but shrugged off the foreman's wife, dismissing it as was said above a *necessary evil* So whatever Jack was doing with women, was *necessary* in Ennis mind to maintain the facade, the secret affair they were carrying on. After all he'd done it himself with Alma and Cassie. This seems to be the *unspoken rationalization* between these two.Women were the cover against suspicion. Jack seemed more adept at maintaining this type set-up since he never divorced Lureen,  and from the looks of things could have easily actually charmed LaShawn into an affair if he chose to. The man had it going on!. Still, have'nt figure his angle in asking LaShawn to dance like that , and where this fits into this thing but I'm working on it.I'm sure it was'nt her charming gift of gab.
Tpe, concerning Ennis being articulate in the face to face scenario with Randall, I agree wholeheartedly that he would not exactly come off like Shakespere or speak with any eloquence of great poets, but I'm not expecting him to. It's not  Ennis manner to do so. But I remain very inquisitive of this fascinating scenario. I'd like to hear, in his own way, in his own words, Ennis's say on the matter if anything. It's the bottom of the 9th, Randall is walking toward homeplate with Jack on his arm. His love, his life. Surely Ennis would be able to string a couple sentences together as he was shown he could if the subject mattered to him. Jack mattered most definitly to him and I'd love to hear his story. And if Jack was in close proximity to this event...All the better, He'd gain a wealth of insight into his man.( Will Ennis fight for me?) I'd luv this.

[manhattangirl]

The man had it going on!. Still, haven't figure his angle in asking LaShawn to dance like that , and where this fits into this thing but I'm working on it.I'm sure it wasn't her charming gift of gab.

I 've wondered about that too.   Why did Jack ask LaShawn to dance?   Was it a dig at Lureen, or removing himself from an uncomfortable situation,  after the glances Randall and Jack  kept giving each other, it must have disturbed Jack in some way.   He must have felt he had to get away from Randall, he was feeling something.  Then when Randall approached he about  going away together, Jack froze, he was right.  He was coming on to him.  Too stun to answer him, we left with that question open, and I mean wide open. Would he or wouldn't he.

[tpe]

Ennis knew Jack was unfaithful to him with at least 2 other people. The mexican hustlers and some ranch foreman's wife ( LaShawn) . He showed his jealous streak concerning the hustlers, but shrugged off the foreman's wife, dismissing it as was said above a *necessary evil* So whatever Jack was doing with women, was *necessary* in Ennis mind to maintain the facade, the secret affair they were carrying on. After all he'd done it himself with Alma and Cassie. This seems to be the *unspoken rationalization* between these two.Women were the cover against suspicion. Jack seemed more adept at maintaining this type set-up since he never divorced Lureen,  and from the looks of things could have easily actually charmed LaShawn into an affair if he chose to. The man had it going on!. Still, have'nt figure his angle in asking LaShawn to dance like that , and where this fits into this thing but I'm working on it.I'm sure it was'nt her charming gift of gab.

aintfoolin, would you thin that this *unspoken rationalization* is a key to understanding Ennis's behaviour?  Many times, he allows appearances to get in the way with his obtaining happiness with Jack.  Also, real or imagined fears of being found out by other people play a huge part in his behaviour. 

Tpe, concerning Ennis being articulate in the face to face scenario with Randall, I agree wholeheartedly that he would not exactly come off like Shakespere or speak with any eloquence of great poets, but I'm not expecting him to. It's not  Ennis manner to do so. But I remain very inquisitive of this fascinating scenario. I'd like to hear, in his own way, in his own words, Ennis's say on the matter if anything. It's the bottom of the 9th, Randall is walking toward homeplate with Jack on his arm. His love, his life. Surely Ennis would be able to string a couple sentences together as he was shown he could if the subject mattered to him. Jack mattered most definitly to him and I'd love to hear his story. And if Jack was in close proximity to this event...All the better, He'd gain a wealth of insight into his man.( Will Ennis fight for me?) I'd luv this.

Yes, a confrontation  between Randall, Jack, and Ennis would not have remained silent, I would assume.  And I would agree that anything Ennis would have said in such a confrontation would have probably held deep significance.  But I am also equally fascinated in those things that might not have been said.  Ennis is equally compelling in how he expresses himself without words.  His reaction, wordless or not, would have been most fascinating...

[tpe]

I 've wondered about that too.   Why did Jack ask LaShawn to dance?   Was it a dig at Lureen, or removing himself from an uncomfortable situation,  after the glances Randall and Jack  kept giving each other, it must have disturbed Jack in some way.   He must have felt he had to get away from Randall, he was feeling something.  Then when Randall approached he about  going away together, Jack froze, he was right.  He was coming on to him.  Too stun to answer him, we left with that question open, and I mean wide open. Would he or wouldn't he.

OT:  I think both the reasons you give are correct.  Jack wanted to make a dig at Lureen and that he wanted to "escape" Randall's overt stares...

[tamlynn]

I always thought asking LaShawn to dance was Jack's subconscious practice run at leaving his relationship with Ennis, and taking up with someone else.  He was so caught up in his secret world, he gave no thought to the feelings of his wife sitting there.  And they were never enemies.  They were always kind to each other. Or maybe he wanted to transfer the whole idea of cheating, from Ennis to his wife.  Maybe he thought cheating on his wife would somehow replace the urge to cheat on Ennis.

Jack tried everything he could to "fix it."  From standing it as it was with Ennis, to mexico, to marriage, to a neighbor's wife and a rancher.

Too bad Jack never played his final card in spite of Ennis's rage.  Not as an ultimatum, but if he had just told Ennis that another man was interested, maybe Ennis would have been more open to figure out how he and Jack could be together.  If Ennis flew into a rage, Jack could say, if you can't stand it, you've got to fix it. 
Transfer the responsibility to Ennis.  Ennis never got enough of his own medicine... it was always his way.  He had Jack all tied up and under control, and took advantage of Jack's loyalty and love.  That is more wrong than Jack seducing Ennis in the first place.  But Ennis even played that card against Jack.  Jack couldn't win, no matter what he did.  Ennis always made him wrong.

The definition of insanity:  To repeat the same behavior while expecting different results.  that's Jack.  It's amazing he didn't go insane doing the same thing while hoping for different results and never getting it.

Ennis's idea of fixing any infidelity on Jack's part was to kill him.  That's insane.  Ennis didn't want him, but didn't want anyone else to have him.  If Jack was going to start a new life, he wasn't even free to discuss it with his explosive lover.  He just had to do it.  "S--t, that's hard."  Jack Twist


Did Ennis have any right to grieve?  Maybe that's why he barely shed a tear.  I always wondered why he wasn't crying buckets.  He had no right to.  He was the only one who could have fixed it and he knew it.
All those years he gave it to Jack to fix.  All those years, he had it his way.  All those years, he blamed Jack for everything.  That's way too easy, Ennis.

On the other hand, realistically, Jack would have been getting 100's of proposals and offers from men who would make Ennis look like the farm boy he was.  Jack stayed gorgeous.  Men would have lined up.  It's pretty unrealistic that he would give his loyalty to this raging/stoic ranch hand who wouldn't commit all those years.

[FlwrChild]

Ah, but you forget, love has nothing to do with good looks or logic. As the tagline for the movie says: Love is a Force of Nature. Jack loved Ennis because it's what his heart told him to do. 

And I believe that Ennis loved Jack for the same reasons. He was just unable to accept or acknowledge it because of the conditioning of his upbringing and his own uncertainties. Ennis gave up a lot for his relationship with Jack, relative to who he was and what mattered to him.

As to how he would react to the idea of Randall, I think Manolo was right about the time frame: if he found out after the confrontation, it would be tempered with the knowledge he'd gained from that conversation. If he found out before, I'm not sure what he would think or do.

Still and all, I don't like to think too much about Randall. For one thing, we really don't know much about him. And despite what Pa Twist said, we have no way of knowing that Jack ever seriously considered making a life with him (or vice versa). At any rate, I agree with manhattan girl:

Jack:  "I wish I knew how to quit you."

Ennis:  "Why don't you, why don't you just let me be"

How painful, wanting to let go but can't, and still wanting each other.  waiting for someone to make the next move, the first move, going in circles.  if fate hadn't step in, these two men, IMO, wouldn't have stopped.  Randall, be damned, nothing would have kept them apart.  they were unable to live without each other. Ennis wouldn't have changed, and Jack would have kept going to Brokeback to be with him.  

Yes,     Walkers, wheelchair,  a tank of oxygen, they would take to be with each other.  And I like to think, if Jack would have lived and they were really old guys, the only fear Ennis would have is not have a heart attack when Jack lay next to him. 
 

[tpe]

Interesting exchange here.

How Ennis and Jack saw each other after the last meeting is a true enigma to me.  On one hand, the possibility arises wherein Jack resigns himself to an Ennis that would never change.  On the other hand, there is the possibility of an Ennis who perhaps sees the need to change, if only to stand what he could not fix.  But they remain possibilities, and Jack's death robs us of some resolution.  Ennis's remorse dominates the scnes after jack's death, but it becomes less clear how his realization of Jack moving on with someone else would have affected things had Jack lived.

Death is sometimes the great Mirror.  But more often, it is the great Divide.  Jack's death robs us of many possibilities that may have come into flower after their last meeting, but perhaps it was for ther best that certain things remained unfulfilled.  That is why their love moves us: it survives adrift in a sea of possibilities.

[welshwitch]

Love's not logical so it doesn't concern itself with externals - and love can't be turned off and on - it just exists. Nor when it becomes a problem can one easily escape it, even when one wants to.  Nor does it die when not returned - "Love is not love/Which alters when it alteration finds."