Topic: Would Ennis have been inclined to rekindle a romance with Jack if.........?

[HiAltShag]

W

[manhattangirl]

We can pose theoretical "what if " questions such as " What if Jacks father was more attentive to his son? What if Ennis parents had never been killed in an auto accident? These question require way too much conjecture because it would completely change the essential dynamics of the characters.However. to pose a " what if " question worth speculating and arrive at a reasonable conclusion, we need to have an established source of info which we can draw upon, such as a history,interactions,motivations, aspirations,to name a few.

Also, we need to pinpoint defining pivotal moments in thier lives where certain events have caused them to react or change in a certain manner .Try to get into their heads so to speak.Speculate the cause and effect of a situation,examine the pre-existing conditions and its results, then attempt to explain why it occurred or reasons it exists.

Ok..The pivotal moment? Ennis turns Alma on her belly and proceeds to anally penetrate her.

Most conclude Ennis had Jack on his mind and was recreating what had occured countless times on BBM between Jack and himself.It's a very reasonable conclusion given what we already know. We can also conclude by Alma's reaction, this was indeed a first time experiance.So next question is...Why at that particular moment?

What pre-existing conditions were there which could have possibly caused Ennis to react to Alma in such a degading manner?

Well., we had seen an upbeat Ennis arrive at the homestead with an occupied horse trailer. He was obvioulsy making a good start fulfillimg his long desired dream of building his own ranch. Livestock was all Ennis knew, but more importantly ,he knew it well. Chances were he would become very successful.He could build a ranch he would be proud of. Quite possibly one which would become quite the talk of the menfolk and give Ennis a much needed boost to his morale.

More importantly..... A shot at redemption.

There really weren't other options available for Ennis which offer him the oppurtunity to make a substantial achievement in his life which would compensate for  his  miserable past and eliminate his negative self-perception. Certainly not continuing  to work for other ranchers or at a better paying job with fellow co-workers at an electric company.This was his once in a lifetime oppurtunity and make no bones about it,......He actually had it within his very grasp.

Things were looking pretty good. At least from his perspective.

He had two beautiful daughters with this fine woman he courted, married and expected would be by his side to support and share his dream.No reason he shouldn't expect this from Alma since it's reasonable to conclude Ennis shared his dreams with her many times prior to and during the engagement. It's also reasonable to assume she stated her support and willingness to stand by her man when she looked at him through adoring eyes during their courtship.

 Someone defined  Alma as "accommodating, wanting to  please Ennis, have his children, not demanding."

Which is completely accurate..................*** At The Beginning.***

In reality though,Alma is  a very strong willed woman. Every bit as strong willed as either Cassie or Lureen. I suspect there is a lot to be understood about Alma's position in the marital hierachy .Think about how much consideration is given to and placed on every detail in  BBM. Then give some thought to the chosen name of their first daughter.........Alma **JR ** !!   

It should be quite a revelation.

So...Ennis arrives home and is greeted by a lonesome chore weary housewife who has worn her knuckles to the bone scrubbing clothes on an old fashion scrub board in the kitchen sink. She has a load of laundry hanging on the line,dinner cooking and two crying babies.She directs Ennis to the crying girls and asks if he could care for them  to which he replies " I could if I had three arms"

However,Ennis being Ennis, doesn't complain and settles the girls down late into the evening.He was obviously exhasted when he came to bed.

Life on a ranch was hard for both Ennis and Alma. Although Ennis had the fortitute and determination to continue,Alma didn't.... Hadn't intended to either.

She had already done some research ,found an apartment that suited her needs and those of her girls and had devised a plan. It was during this moment that Alma decided to exert her feminine wiles ( I envision a sly coyote) and disarm Ennis through seduction and crafty manipulation by appealing to his sense of fatherly devotion and utilizing a unique tool for which only she had access (with the exception of Jack )....An intimate knowledge of Ennis.

She was privy to the circumstances surrounding Ennis folks and how lonesome his childhood life was. He didn't want his girls growing up lonely as he had...Now did he?

She claimed she was concerned about Alma's ( or was it jenny's) resporatory problem. But was it accute? If she had breathing problems, wouldn't moving to a more closely populated town aggrevate it. I certainly don't recall it ever being aluded to further. I do suspect however, the laundromat below the apartment had to be very enticing to a pair of young worn to the bare knuckle dishpan hands.

I feel it's particularly pertinent to reiterate Alma's intimate knowledge of Ennis. She completely understood how important his dream of building a ranch was to him. But did it really matter ? Did she truly have a deep love for the man to make sacrifices for him ? Did she understand or even care what she was asking of him or what long term effect it would have on his feelings towards her or their marriage?

What do you suppose went through Ennis mind the moment she presented this to him? What would be a knee jerk reaction from a man who never complained,was always emblimatic of his own motto " If you can't fix it you've got to stand it ." ?

We witnessed exactly what that would be when Ennis didn't complain verbally but turned Alma on her belly,then proceded to penetrate her from behind.

How much of that was desire for Jack?
How much as a silent protest and degradation of Alma?

If Alma had suppported Ennis in his pursuit to build a successful ranch. If Ennis had alloted the time in the evening for building on that foundation instead of coming home at night to a second floor apartment,plop down in front of the TV watching Kojak and emptying six packs.
Would Ennis have been inclined to rekindle a romance with Jack? /qoute]

HiAltshag:

Great post,  I know I'm going to have more questions later.  But there is one thing I want to ask you:

There is pre-reunion Alma and a post-reunion Alma.  How must of a factor plays into when she saw Jack and Ennis kiss.   How could she compete against that?   Wasn't then that she became pro-active in the  marriage?  Remember, when Ennis was waiting for Jack,  she suggested that they go out to dinner, she fed her child, clean the kitchen, perfectly content, then Jack Arrives.  The following day,  she knew she had competition.   She knew then the marriage changed, the rules changed and she had to change.   In-spite of  what happen in the bedroom,  Isn't what she saw that day changed everything?   

Note:  please forgive the appearance of my Post I think I hit the wrong key.

[tpe]

I think Ennis didn't have a choice, really, since it was really who started the trouble by re-establishing contact with Ennis via the postcard.

When Jack made his move, I don't think Ennis would have said no, no matter what his circumstances were.  Jack's reaching out established the sequence of events.

[lamusica]

Once Jack wrote to Ennis that he was driving through Ennis's town, I believe Ennis was lost.  No matter how good his marriage might have been, this was Jack coming back.  As the SS says, the gut-wrenching scene in the old shed after saying good-bye to Jack defined to Ennis what he was walking away from.  It hit him that he was leaving Jack, and the visceral result was wretching, vomiting, crying, shaking ( literally, a nervous breakdown).  His relationship with Jack wasn't merely a summer of happy, carefree screwing, as he probably had initially thought it was.  It hit him that he was tearing his insides out at the thought of loosing Jack permanently.  He got up, went on with life, married Alma, etc.  BUT the moment he heard Alma say Jack's name, it all came back to him.  This is evident in the scene where he was waiting for Jack's arival.  He was in a state -- again, a vervous wreck.  If Jack hadn't shown up, what would he have done?  Probably gone to the tavern and tied a good one on!.  Anyway, Jack DID show up, and Ennis, the moment he saw him from the upstairs window, was one happy man.  No matter how happy he might have been ( content is a better word), at this point he was HAPPY.  The reunion embraces and kisses are proof of this.  From that moment on, the marriage was redefined ( as manhattangirl stated), and Jack was Ennis's raison d'etre.

[tpe]

Hi there tpe !!! 

I so appreciate your comments. Congradulations on achieving such a milestone on posts.

First let me make it clear, I do not like to diminish in the least Ennis and Jacks love for each other.It's the glue which holds the entire film together.

Makes it hurt soooooo good.

Interesting how you attribute the word "trouble" to Jack and the responsiblity he shoulders.

tpe quote : >>>>.....When Jack made his move, I don't think Ennis would have said no, no matter what his circumstances were....<<<<.

You could very well be completely correct, even if it's true of what I suspect that Ennis disenchantment with Alma played a significant part in his eager reception of Jack.

This may come as a silly if not insulting comparison to Jack's and Ennis sacred summer on the mountain,but I can't help but make comparisons of Danny and Sandy from Grease and their summer romance. Sandy ( Jack?) was wholely smitten with Danny.Became "Hopelessly devoted" to him. I reckon it was equally so of Danny for Sandy, but in the guise of a sexual conquest .( Certanly not a comparison to Ennis )

If what?..Fate?..hadn't brought them together again, they most likely would have gone on with their lives and fallen in love with others. Which wasn't the case but just the same ,their meeting again rekindled that spark and nature took its course.

They certainly didn't have the huge obstacles to overcome as Ennis and Jack had but their meeting, wheather deliberate or by fate, "established the sequence of events." as you said.

Hmmmmm.... I wonder.

If Ennis WAS a successful ,established ,well respected citizen of the community, he would have had much more at stake to risk.

Well...I just wonder.

Hello HiAltShag. 

I don't know if I would blame Jack.  After all, like Ennis, he probably felt that he had to contact Ennis.  I do think Jack tried to forget Ennis by going to Texas, and it took him a while to realize that he couldn't.  And Ennis certainly must have felt the same yearning, because he did obliquely admit to Jack in the Motel that he was hoping Jack would contact him during those 4 years.

I guess the best way to describe this is that when it came to their relationship, Jack was more active and Ennis was more passive.  Both  certainly cou;dn't help reacting to the other.

I wondered sometimes whether Ennis was really disillusioned with his marriage with Alma at that point.  I would say that he was not entirely happy.  Whether he knew why is a good question.  Perhaps Ennis was always hoping that Jack would return...

[lamusica]

It's interesting that we really don't have too many clues about what was going on in Jack's head where Ennis is concerned during those four years.  We know he got married and had a child, and we know he certainly was not happy with his father-in-law and the way he was treated by him.  But, we have no clues as to what he was feeling about Ennis.  The postcard was the first real sign that he had been thinking about Ennis and intended to see him again.  Even the postcard was rather tentative.  I think, though, that Jack was going to show up at Ennis's place no matter what Ennis had rsponded to the postcard.  At that point, Jack was on a mission -- to see Ennis and go from there.
        Jack was always the impetus, but I don't mean that in a mean way.  Someone had to take the lead, and it sure wasn't going to be Ennis, due, I think, to Ennis's failure to believe you can shape your own destiny.  That idea had been knocked out of him by his father.  It was up to Jack to keep everything going, and, to Jack, the payoff was sufficient.  As he got older, though, it was harder and harder to get to the payoff, and he grew dissatisfied.

[FlwrChild]

Wow. Good topic, good posts.
I guess I'll jump in as well. What follows are my two cents in the form of my free-floating thought process. Bear with me.

First to the anal sex with Alma. The short story does actually refer to this twice. The first time is around the time of the scene in question in the movie.
".....and he rolled her over, did quickly what she hated."
Which also implies this was not the first time he'd done so. I don't think it was meant to be intentionally degrading to Alma. I think for him, it was more instinctive and he would probably be loathe to dwell on the why's or who's of what was motivating him. It was, of course, inconsiderate to her nonetheless. Though I find it interesting to note that the passage preceding this shows that he was attending to her needs before flipping her over. So he wasn't completely unaware of her in this sense (which is kind of Ennis in a nutshell - trying to do what he thinks he should warring with his instincts to do things differently).
And I don't think there's any indication that she isn't happy with him and their life per se at this point in their marriage. She just doesn't want to be alone on a ranch in the middle of nowhere. I remember the smile on her face when she sees his truck pulling onto the property.
The other reference in the SS was just before the divorce, when she says of children:
"I'd have 'em if you'd support 'em."
Which was also in the movie, except in the SS this was followed by:
And under that, thought anyway, what you like to do don't make too many babies.

I really do think that Ennis's instinct to see Jack again was more regardless of anything in his marriage than because of it. It was in the SS that he told Jack it took him a year to figure out that he got sick after coming down the mountain because "I shouldn't a let you out a my sights."
And then:
"Too late then by a long, long while."

So he figured he'd let his chance go by and had to stick to his responsibilities. But was obviously still thinking of Jack during that time. While he probably never would have gone looking for Jack himself (Ennis being Ennis), I think he would have been receptive to seeing him at any point in his marriage, no matter how well or not it was going.

As to what Jack was thinking about Ennis during their four years apart, we know that he went back to Aguirre's in the hope of seeing him there the next summer. After that, we see his somewhat clumsy attempts to figure out where he fit in the world and his eventual marriage to Lureen, who was certainly the pursuer in their relationship. Much like Ennis, I think he figured his chance for them was past and he tried to make a go of it with someone else, in a conventional way, as he was 'supposed' to do. But he couldn't forget Ennis, and at some point made the decision to find him again.

Well, they say you never forget your first love. Maybe this was just a pull that neither one of them could resist. Is the timing of their reunion particularly relevant or was it just a matter of time till they found their way back to each other somehow?

I'll stop my Lashawning there. I hope I was coherent enough and some of my jumbled thoughts made sense.

[tpe]

Very well said, FlwrChild.  I do agree that both Ennis and Jack had each other in their thoughts all the time.  And yes, I do think Ennis and Jack instictively sought each other out, whether in dreams or in reality.  The operative word here is "instictive".  They did not completely understand, but they knew that they had to be together somehow or other.

[CrimsonSky]

This may come as a silly if not insulting comparison to Jack's and Ennis sacred summer on the mountain,but I can't help but make comparisons of Danny and Sandy from Grease and their summer romance. Sandy ( Jack?) was wholely smitten with Danny.Became "Hopelessly devoted" to him. I reckon it was equally so of Danny for Sandy, but in the guise of a sexual conquest .( Certanly not a comparison to Ennis )

If what?..Fate?..hadn't brought them together again, they most likely would have gone on with their lives and fallen in love with others. Which wasn't the case but just the same ,their meeting again rekindled that spark and nature took its course.

They certainly didn't have the huge obstacles to overcome as Ennis and Jack had but their meeting, wheather deliberate or by fate, "established the sequence of events." as you said.

Hmmmmm.... I wonder.

If Ennis WAS a successful ,established ,well respected citizen of the community, he would have had much more at stake to risk.

Well...I just wonder.

I love your comparison to Grease (and I think it's a valid one). Grease is one of my favourite films, but whenever I hear Summer Nights now, it always make me think of Jack and Ennis, rather than Danny and Sandy, especially the line about "met a boy, cute as can be", always makes me picture Jack leaning against the truck

As for the topic here, I don't think it would've made a difference what Ennis's social standing was, because I fullly subscribe to the idea that they were just meant to be together and NOTHING could have kept Ennis away. And although Ennis maybe didn't have as much to lose in a material sense, he risked losing everything else he held dear: his marriage and daughters, and also his own sense of himself as a "real" man who wasn't "queer". That was Ennis's biggest fear and torment in life, he couldn't bring himself to accept that he might be gay, let alone that other people would think it, but the minute he gets the postcard I think he was hoping that he and Jack definitely were "going get into this again". That would mean admitting to himself that being with Alma wasn't enough for him, that there was at least some part of him that was most definitely "queer" (even if he was only queer for Jack), but even that knowledge, with all the fear and self-loathing it instilled in him, wasn't enough to stop him from being with Jack again.         

[manhattangirl]

I love this site, I learning everyday:

   It's the knowing/ not knowing reasons for love.  Jack and Ennis had it.   They reach out to each other after four years,  not knowing why, or what to expect,  after seeing each other they knew what they wanted.   Both these men tried to hold on to what they had, and then try to let go of it, winding up holding on to it tighter.   This went on for twenty years.  If this isn't love than what is it?   


Am I close?     

[jackster]

Very interesting topic and thoughts -

“Just sending up a prayer of thanks” – Ennis del Mar.
I think Ennis felt that Jack’s contacting him after four years was one of the greatest events of his life. From the SS:
"I didn't know where in the hell you was," said Ennis. "Four years. I about give up on you. I figured you was sore about that punch."
He had no idea where Jack was, the Army? Rodeoing? Lightning Flat? Signal? Where would he begin look? He really had to wait for Jack to find him in Riverton, not too far from where they left each other in ‘63. After four years with no word he hadn’t given up, he’d only “about give up”. That’s pretty long to hold the candle.

Yet when Jack shows up in Riverton, again from the SS “A hot jolt scalded Ennis and he was out on the landing pulling the door closed behind him.” I think he was astounded by his own passion for Jack.

As far as Ennis’s own acceptance of his need for Jack, Ennis’s complexity is such that he poses two completely opposing ideas in the same thought – again from the SS:
"Sure as hell seem in one piece to me. You know, I was sittin’ up here all that time tryin’ to figure out if I was _? I know I ain't. I mean, here we both got wives and kids, right? I like doin’ it with women, yeah, but Jesus H., ain't nothin’ like this. I never had no thoughts a doin’ it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin' about you."
So he “knows” he ain’t queer, but has had hundreds of sexual fantasies about Jack. How you figger’ that one Ennis, Huh?
jackster

[manhattangirl]

Very interesting topic and thoughts -
Yet when Jack shows up in Riverton, again from the SS “A hot jolt scalded Ennis and he was out on the landing pulling the door closed behind him.” I think he was astounded by his own passion for Jack.

As far as Ennis’s own acceptance of his need for Jack, Ennis’s complexity is such that he poses two completely opposing ideas in the same thought – again from the SS:
"Sure as hell seem in one piece to me. You know, I was sittin’ up here all that time tryin’ to figure out if I was _? I know I ain't. I mean, here we both got wives and kids, right? I like doin’ it with women, yeah, but Jesus H., ain't nothin’ like this. I never had no thoughts a doin’ it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin' about you."
So he “knows” he ain’t queer, but has had hundreds of sexual fantasies about Jack. How you figger’ that one Ennis, Huh?
jackster

Even asking the question, Ennis seem to want some kind of confirmation from Jack that he wasn't "queer", an assurance.  When he ask  Jack, if he did it with other guys, Jack knew what to say to him, he lied:  "sh#t no," said Jack, who had been riding more than bulls, not rolling his own.    It's like a riddle, that everyone knows the answer but Ennis.  I wish Jack would have smack Ennis on his head and asked him, "You're laying here with me, what do you think?" 

I have another question:  Is Ang's vision of  Ennis , and Annie's vision, oppose to each other?   

[tpe]

As for the topic here, I don't think it would've made a difference what Ennis's social standing was, because I fullly subscribe to the idea that they were just meant to be together and NOTHING could have kept Ennis away. And although Ennis maybe didn't have as much to lose in a material sense, he risked losing everything else he held dear: his marriage and daughters, and also his own sense of himself as a "real" man who wasn't "queer". That was Ennis's biggest fear and torment in life, he couldn't bring himself to accept that he might be gay, let alone that other people would think it, but the minute he gets the postcard I think he was hoping that he and Jack definitely were "going get into this again". That would mean admitting to himself that being with Alma wasn't enough for him, that there was at least some part of him that was most definitely "queer" (even if he was only queer for Jack), but even that knowledge, with all the fear and self-loathing it instilled in him, wasn't enough to stop him from being with Jack again.         

I do agree that Ennis risked everything and that other than his family, he had very little that would have made him hesitate.  But it was his own deep fears that kept him at bay.  Is there some irony in this?

[tpe]

   It's the knowing/ not knowing reasons for love.  Jack and Ennis had it.   They reach out to each other after four years,  not knowing why, or what to expect,  after seeing each other they knew what they wanted.   Both these men tried to hold on to what they had, and then try to let go of it, winding up holding on to it tighter.   This went on for twenty years.  If this isn't love than what is it?   

Am I close?     

I feel that you have said something here that I myelf had difficulty expressing -- that there is an intrinsic conundrum in a love that both repelled them and bound them.   This is why I had always thought that it was noever a question of rekindling.  For me it was more a question of strengthening something that was already there.  Even if they had never seen each other, I am sure that both would have stayed in each other's heart as the most cherished love of their lives.  Tragedy and death did not change that, IMO.

[tpe]

Very interesting topic and thoughts -

“Just sending up a prayer of thanks” – Ennis del Mar.
I think Ennis felt that Jack’s contacting him after four years was one of the greatest events of his life. From the SS:
"I didn't know where in the hell you was," said Ennis. "Four years. I about give up on you. I figured you was sore about that punch."
He had no idea where Jack was, the Army? Rodeoing? Lightning Flat? Signal? Where would he begin look? He really had to wait for Jack to find him in Riverton, not too far from where they left each other in ‘63. After four years with no word he hadn’t given up, he’d only “about give up”. That’s pretty long to hold the candle.

Yet when Jack shows up in Riverton, again from the SS “A hot jolt scalded Ennis and he was out on the landing pulling the door closed behind him.” I think he was astounded by his own passion for Jack.

Well said.  Isn't it quite amazing that Ennis -- for all his own issues about himself -- had the presentiment that Jack would inevitably try to reach him?  And to admit as much to Jack would show a certain confidence in their love, no?  One can't really rekindle something that is already lit. 
 

As far as Ennis’s own acceptance of his need for Jack, Ennis’s complexity is such that he poses two completely opposing ideas in the same thought – again from the SS:
"Sure as hell seem in one piece to me. You know, I was sittin’ up here all that time tryin’ to figure out if I was _? I know I ain't. I mean, here we both got wives and kids, right? I like doin’ it with women, yeah, but Jesus H., ain't nothin’ like this. I never had no thoughts a doin’ it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin' about you."
So he “knows” he ain’t queer, but has had hundreds of sexual fantasies about Jack. How you figger’ that one Ennis, Huh?
jackster

Again, it is the inherent contradiction that encompasses their love for each other, no?  Denial never reaslly put into question how they truly felt...

[tpe]

I have another question:  Is Ang's vision of  Ennis , and Annie's vision, oppose to each other?   

As far as Ennis is concerned, I personally don't think either one insisted on one particular interpretation, especially when it came to Ennis's denial.  The contradictions we see in Ennis and his love for Jack are really not that rare in real life, where most of us live with unresolved issues everyday. 

Both Ang Lee and Proulx recognized in Ennis's passive approach to his love as a manifestation of the ambiguity when it came to how he rationalized his love for Jack.  Jack was more an active agent, and Ennis was the willing recipient who responded deeply to that love even as he refused to recognize the implications. 

As for the question of sexuality, both I think recognized the irony and complexity of homophobia and homophilia married/merged into the persona of Ennis himself.  This, I think, is what Proulx meant when he viewed BBM as a study of homobhobia in the land of the pure cowboy.

 

[welshwitch]

Being passive can also be a way of avoiding dealing with reality. Ennis tends to do what comes next, so to speak - he has a relationship with Jack which is ended prematurely by Aguirre's intevention so he accets that and goes on to marry Alma. then when Jack makes a move after four years Ennis responds; it's Jack who suggests they go back up into the mountains together, Jack who drives hundres of miles each time to meet Ennis. And the one time Ennis makes a positive move, sending the message after the divorce, as soon as it produces consequences in the shape of KJack's precipitate arrival, Ennis pulls back.

He knows what he feels for Jack is a part of him, but a lot of the time he simply pushes it down below th level of consciousness, though when a strong force pulls it back up he acknowledges and acts on it. He appears able to admit the truth of his feelings only for short periods and in very limited circumstances. That way he could control it. or so he thought.  Until he found the shirts.

[jackster]

The contradictions we see in Ennis and his love for Jack are really not that rare in real life, where most of us live with unresolved issues everyday.   

Dear tpe:
I think you really hit it here, one of the reasons this film connects with so many people (myself included) - it's so REAL. "Hey, that could be me", or "hey, that IS me!" Unlike a lot of Hollywood where everything comes wrapped up in neat little packages that are easily solved or resolved, this tale is not easily reconciled notwithstanding the great pain and tragedy of Ennis and Jack. Just like much of life.

jackster

[jackster]

I wish Jack would have smacked Ennis on his head and asked him, "You're laying here with me, what do you think?" 

I thinks that's hilarious! I can almost see Jack doin' that, sort of like his "the hell they are" response regarding rodeo cowboys being F**k ups. Guess it would have sent the film in a somewhat different direction!! 

jackster

[tpe]

Dear tpe:
I think you really hit it here, one of the reasons this film connects with so many people (myself included) - it's so REAL. "Hey, that could be me", or "hey, that IS me!" Unlike a lot of Hollywood where everything comes wrapped up in neat little packages that are easily solved or resolved, this tale is not easily reconciled notwithstanding the great pain and tragedy of Ennis and Jack. Just like much of life.

jackster

jackster, thank you.   The question is perhaps not whether Ennis was inclined to rekindle it; rather, it is more a question of whether he had any control over it.  For as much as we like to think we do have control over our lives, many times, we realize that this is not the case.

 

[FlwrChild]

HiAltShag, you've started a great thread here.

And your responses are thorough so I'll try to keep up.

Just to the part about when Alma says "I'd have 'em if you'd support 'em."
It's what the short story says she's thinking after she says that: ...anyway, what you like to do don't make too many babies.
This is the reference I was talking about.

Which brings us to the very good question of what to reference in these threads. I like to look to both the movie and the SS when discussing the subtleties of the story. Sometimes one sheds light on the other. And each has elements that the other doesn't. And even with all the details we get from both, there "is still some open space between what we know and what we try to believe"....

And that is one of the things that I like about the story, and this forum. It lets us bring our own personal feelings and experiences into our interpretation so that for each of us it is a unique experience.

[jackster]

And that is one of the things that I like about the story, and this forum. It lets us bring our own personal feelings and experiences into our interpretation so that for each of us it is a unique experience.

You Bet!

jackster

[tpe]

I have always understood men such as Ennis,generally are not very introspective but as you said "instinctive" in their reactions.Which I interpret also as being  a "conditioned" reflex.You say you suspect Ennis was not "intentionally "degtrading Alma ,which I can agree with but that still doesn't eliminate the possibility he was "subconsciously". I suspect there had to be an impetus at that moment which caused him to react that way.The operative word being "react".

THis is a good distinction...

FlwrChild and tpe....There' can be no denying how much instincts factor into the equation, but to me,the word instinct here is more or less a play upon sentimentality which doesn't leave much consideration to the characters pre-existing conflicts,particularly Ennis's.Jack will throw caution to the wind but ennis most definitely would not.

I think of instinct as something much more primitive.  Ennis did not have to understand or agree with his desire for Jack.  It is latent within him.  The mere sight of Jack was enough to bring it to the surface, as much as the sigt of food would bring to the surface some latent hunger.

[FlwrChild]

Hmm, I disagree. I don't think Ennis wanted the approval of other men per se. I think he wanted to avoid disapproval. But more than that, I think he'd have been happy if the world mostly just left him alone. As I said in another thread, he wasn't very social. Partly because he was kind of closed up and self-protective, as his upbringing would cause. And partly because he was just a quiet, private person.

Why was he drawn to Jack? Who knows? Why are any of us drawn to each other? I don't need to know why he was, just that the pull was a strong one. And strong enough that he was willing to go against everything he was taught to think of as right and wrong in order to be with Jack, as much as he could.

[manhattangirl]

IMO:   Please bear with me.  Remember the scene when Ennis was talking about his family, and Jack smile at him.  Ennis said "what"  Jack replied   "Friend that more words you spoke in the past two weeks", Ennis said  " Hell, thats more I spoke in a year."

"More I spoke in a year".  What does that tell you.  Why at any point in Ennis life, that summer, did Ennis feel safe or confident enough to open up?  Of all people to Jack Twist?

I believe Jack got to the heart of him.  He sympathized in the bar scene when Ennis talk about the death of his parents.  Jack reply was "sh#t, thats hard",   Its probably first time someone try to feel his pain.    When he thrown from the horse and the food was scattered everywhere.  Did Jack condemn him, made fun of him? No. his tried to clean his wound and figure out what was the next step.  No condemnations, no put downs.  The relationship after that was closer, a trust between began.  The sex after that, like in  relationships based on attraction to another person, the need was recognized mutually acted upon.     

What I trying to say don't entirely dismiss the why of their relationship because that the heart of it, Ennis found that something in Jack, he never had before.  Its the reasons for all the pain, and the trauma, and all the love after that.   

[tpe]

What is even more instinctual and primitive is for men to desire the approval of other men. Yes,the mere sight of Jack made him very happy and desirous of Jack but it also made him very paranoid and it had to be hidden. I disagree the desire for Jack was latent in Ennis. I feel it was more conditioned.

We can disagree in this, although I must say that I love the comment that Jack made Ennis feel happy and paranoid at the same time.  Whether it was latent or not, Jack certainly aroused conflicting feelings in Ennis.  This was part of the dynamic.

[tpe]

Hmm, I disagree. I don't think Ennis wanted the approval of other men per se. I think he wanted to avoid disapproval. But more than that, I think he'd have been happy if the world mostly just left him alone. As I said in another thread, he wasn't very social. Partly because he was kind of closed up and self-protective, as his upbringing would cause. And partly because he was just a quiet, private person.

Why was he drawn to Jack? Who knows? Why are any of us drawn to each other? I don't need to know why he was, just that the pull was a strong one. And strong enough that he was willing to go against everything he was taught to think of as right and wrong in order to be with Jack, as much as he could.

I do note that this is a good distinction, in that Ennis sought to avoid disapproval, rather than seek approval.  The former is passive, whereas the latter is more active.  In this sense, Ennis was conservative.  Even with his relationship with Jack, it was frequently more reaactive than proactive. 

[tpe]

He was drawn to Jack because of Jacks love.Jacks APPARENT need for him was very seductive.Jack caused Ennis to open up and interact. I hate to say it but It's  unfortunate Jack was his first sexual experiance. It did cause Ennis to fall in love with him but also caused him to have an identity crisis.

I do note that falling in love is something that can't be forced on a person by external forces and stimuli.  IMO, Ennis fell in love because he allowed himself to.  Remember that he knew Alma before Jack, and the fact that he did not fall in love with Alma the same way speaks volumes.

It would seem that you attribute Ennis falling in love because Jack was his first sexual experience.  This is certainly not the case in real life, where having sex for the first time does not necessarily lead to a loving relationship.  I would rather say that Ennis allowed himself to have sex with Jack because he had grown to love him beforehand, and part of this love engendered desire.  Of course, their love deepened even more after this, but one should not attribute love purely to the fulfilment of one's sexual desires.

[FlwrChild]

Beautifully put tpe. I think I just fell in love with them all over again.

[tpe]

I think I just fell in love with them all over again.

They constantly rekindle our love for their love.