Topic: Jack's love for Ennis

[welshwitch]

It's also why tragedy lasts and happy-ever-after froth doesn't. BBM is a tragedy in the great tradition, caused by charatcer flaws that in other circumstances might not matter, and as inevitable as, to quote Scarlett O'Hara, death and taxes.

[tpe]

Jack's love is complex but very human in its intensity.  In a sense, his great love for Ennis is his tragic flaw.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

Absolutly right. 20 years is a long, long time to wait for someone. Jack's love and patience had to be strong for him to go along with this for so long. But he had limited options except for an ultimatum. In the last scene when he's older he finally realizes that maybe he's being played  in a sense and calls Ennis on all of it. His love is so  full of passion and so was his anger. and it was this passion that spilled over in the words he used in that fight. He was fighting for his life because he loved Ennis so much more than ever at that point.If the divorce scene is the one that broke Jack , this I feel this is the scene that finally broke Ennis. Faced with the possibility of loosing Jack forever( which by the way is doubtful IMO, but Ennis was scared out of his mind about it) all Jack had to do at this point was to give the ultimatum.
Ennis would have come around rather than loose Jack forever. When he was crying in Jack's arms he was holding on for dear life. The acting in this scene from JG and HL was excellence personified.IMHO

Wow!  I think you have just pierced my heart where this scene is concerned.  As angry as Jack appeared in this scene, it was obvious that he was pouring out his heart to Ennis.  Jack's words may have hurt Ennis in a way, but there had to be some part of Ennis that realized he was dealing with someone who truly loved him and had put up with a lot of heartache just to be with him.  Maybe part of the reason for Ennis's emotional breakdown was that he finally admitted in his heart that this relationship was never just "a thing" where Jack was concerned.

[LuvJackNasty]

CSC I think that had a good deal to do with Ennis' breakdown- he knew deep down inside what it was doing to them both but hearing it made it real- once it was out in the open and verbalized there wasn't a way to ignore it or push it down inside- it's harder to quiet a voice when it's not your own.

[aintfoolin]

He Knew that if he could'nt stand it anymore surely Jack whom he loves so dearly has really had enough of his half-stepping.Jack exposed the part of Ennis that he denied to himself for 20 years. He had no choice but to come clean with it. I love the character of Ennis and in alot of ways identify with him..To use his own philosophy against him,He was too busy standing it instead of trying to fix it.In the end he was forced to stand it. too sad.

[ksxks]

It's also why tragedy lasts and happy-ever-after froth doesn't. BBM is a tragedy in the great tradition, caused by charatcer flaws that in other circumstances might not matter, and as inevitable as, to quote Scarlett O'Hara, death and taxes.

Certainly if this had been a HEA story, we probably would not still be here talking about it.

kathy

[ksxks]

CSC I think that had a good deal to do with Ennis' breakdown- he knew deep down inside what it was doing to them both but hearing it made it real- once it was out in the open and verbalized there wasn't a way to ignore it or push it down inside- it's harder to quiet a voice when it's not your own.

Excellent, LJN.  So true.  They had had their bickering, which we saw some of, but I doubt ever words like this before.  I'm glad Jack finally had it, and said all this...and it would have moved their relationship along finally...if they had seen each other in November.  Except from the spring to November is a long time, and once Jack had let that cork fly, he might have gone home and started thinking differently about Ennis, and not shown up in November anyway.  But the other scenario is that they might have actually talked on the phone between the spring and November, both knowing things were not status quo anymore.

kathy

[ksxks]

I am of the beleif that Jack would'nt have lost Ennis if he gave the ultimatum. Even after the divorce if Jack would've given Ennis the impression that he was'nt going to wait around wishing  and hoping for him to come around instead of just "I'll see you next month then" , maybe Ennis would have had second thoughts about letting him just drive off like that. After all it was Ennis who said "aint no reins on this one".That says to me that despite all his dumbass paranoia, he loved and wanted Jack. But I know Jack had his own fears. I think he underestimated Ennis's desire for him. He should've called his bluff and took that chance. By agreeing to just leave like he did he continued to give Ennis all the upper hand in the relationship.  He never tested Ennis's strong feelins of love for him but instead let Ennis run the show.  He was too araid of loosnig him.  When Ennis realizes that he no longer had Jack ever again, coupled with thoghts about Jack moving on with someone else, I beleive it woul've been Ennis showing up in Texas out of the blue to find JACK.! Don't think he could've lived without him for too long. As always  this my humble opinion.

This is good, aintfoolin.  Why Jack continued to play by Ennis's rules.  At first, I totally understand it, that Jack was respecting Ennis's very real fears.  But after 20 years, it seems that wasn't valid anymore.  He could have given Ennis an ultimatum, and that would have indeed moved them along.  But to think that Jack might have felt he loved Ennis more than Ennis loved him...that is so sad.   

kathy

[dodoLea]

IMO after 20 years of their love, Jack's frustration has become so deep to be turned into anger, if Ennis had given him an answer after his "The truth is... sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" maybe his reaction to Ennis would  have been different in their last talk.After 20 years Jack deserved more than Ennis silence.In Jack's mind he's the one of the two who loves more and he wants more, he deserves more. He has hoped for 20 years that Ennis gave him what desired more without never getting it,I think that whoever would have thought about not being loved enough,I'd have thought it, a little sign from Ennis and Jack would have expected November without many problems

[aintfoolin]

 You are so right about this , He let Ennis make all the rules in the relationship, partly because of his own fears of loosing  him if he pushed too far in the beginning.  But 20 years? that's a long time to be on as Jack stated "a short leash" . But he stood it as long as he could, a testament to his undying patience with this man. Then  it became like trying to "see the Pope" under these rules and he  simply laid out all his feelings about it on the line. He wanted more time with Ennis, not just scraps and short pieces of time either He wanted forever.  And CSC, I agree with you too  that when Jack got done, Ennis knew he meant business. He realized that this was'nt a game to Jack and that Jack was sick and tired of playing  it. He had sacrificed too much, and invested so much time.  Wanted  that sweet life he dreamed of and was gonna get it with,  or( maybe in Ennis's mind ),without Ennis. It was this realization that broke Ennis. Had to admit to himself that he could'nt live without Jack. And yes those words from Jack  hurt like hell to Ennis but  he needed to hear them . It scared Ennis shitless. Jack had  finally forced his hand , and in the process stripped Ennis bare. There was NO PLACE  to hide anymore. A . major wake up call  if ever there was one.  I agree with a comment earlier that at that point Jack could have gotten what he wanted out of Ennis with a final ultimatum.   Always IMHO.

[ksxks]

You are so right about this , He let Ennis make all the rules in the relationship, partly because of his own fears of loosing  him if he pushed too far in the beginning.  But 20 years? that's a long time to be on as Jack stated "a short leash" . But he stood it as long as he could, a testament to his undying patience with this man. Then  it became like trying to "see the Pope" under these rules and he  simply laid out all his feelings about it on the line. He wanted more time with Ennis, not just scraps and short pieces of time either He wanted forever.  And CSC, I agree with you too  that when Jack got done, Ennis knew he meant business. He realized that this was'nt a game to Jack and that Jack was sick and tired of playing  it. He had sacrificed too much, and invested so much time.  Wanted  that sweet life he dreamed of and was gonna get it with,  or( maybe in Ennis's mind ),without Ennis. It was this realization that broke Ennis. Had to admit to himself that he could'nt live without Jack. And yes those words from Jack  hurt like hell to Ennis but  he needed to hear them . It scared Ennis shitless. Jack had  finally forced his hand , and in the process stripped Ennis bare. There was NO PLACE  to hide anymore. A . major wake up call  if ever there was one.  I agree with a comment earlier that at that point Jack could have gotten what he wanted out of Ennis with a final ultimatum.   Always IMHO.

So true, aintfoolin.  This could have turned out differently from this point forward, if only...  I would have liked to have been in Ennis's head driving home from that trip, and the next months -- wonder if he finally knew he had to make some changes.  Too bad they didn't talk on the telephone -- presumably they didn't.  Presumably that was the last contact Ennis had with Jack...and then the postcard was returned.

kathy

[tpe]

The fact that Jack didn't inform Ennis about his plans to move on with someone else can be interpreted in many ways.  Perhaps Jack himself was unsure of how to break the news.  Did he intend not to tell Ennis for as long as possible?  After all, Jack probably remembered Ennis's threat about things not known and those he would come to know.   But how could Jack have thought that he could keep this a secret from Ennis indefinitely?  Perhaps he was indeed forcing Ennis's hand.  We shall never really know for sure.  It may be a strange, rather twisted manifestation of Jack's love -- that he did not say anything.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

Interesting point you bring up tpe.  Unfortunately the story's tragic ending prevents us from ever knowing what Jack's intentions were regarding Ennis.  So many possible directions could have taken place after their final meeting.  Jack was definitely making his true feelings toward Ennis known.  However, we don't know if Jack was really going to take a step forward without Ennis.  The answer would have been in the postcard...had Jack lived to answer it. :\'(

[welshwitch]

I suppose Jack could have done what his father siad he intended to - left Lureen and moved to Lightning Flat with Randall, if Randall wanted to go with him. He could have replied to the postcard simply  saying that he wasn;t going to come, and Ennis would never have known where he was - he had no reason to go to Lightning Flat himself.

More likely, though, IMO, is that the Randall-and-Jack-at-LF scenario is Jak's invention or a spur-of-the-moment suggestion made when his father was bugging him about all his promises to bring Ennis and make something out of the ranch. I don't know whether he would ever have seriously considered it.

[aintfoolin]

We will never know for sure which direction the relationship would have gone, so most of us will choose the best scenario, Jack meeting Ennis at Pine Creek and Ennis agreeing to the life that they both want together. It's a dream but a nice one anyway.

[Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree]

More likely, though, IMO, is that the Randall-and-Jack-at-LF scenario is Jak's invention or a spur-of-the-moment suggestion made when his father was bugging him about all his promises to bring Ennis and make something out of the ranch. I don't know whether he would ever have seriously considered it.

Lets face it, in the story Jack had been ridin' more than bulls in the four years they were apart, he was a sex tourist in Mexaco in the film.  Randall was dropping hints the size of house bricks to Jack - and he did not say no. Who would to a bearded available hunk with access to a cabin ?

Jack was going for the sweet life with randall and Ennis had had 20 years to s*** or get off the pot.

The tragedy is Ennis only realised after what a fool he had been when he heard it from Jacks Father.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

I choose to believe that most of Jack's adventures away from Ennis were an empty substitute.  Perhaps Randall meant a little more.  After all Jack chose to disguise his affair with Randall by stating involvement with LaShawn.  Jack somehow knew that Ennis probably couldn't handle the knowledge of legitimate competition involving another man.  Ennis pretty much said so at their final meeting.

I like welshwitch's angle that perhaps Jack mentioned Randall just to get his dad of his back.  In my heart, Jack loved Ennis too much to just discard a 20 year investment.  Don't get me wrong...Randall was a legitimate contender for Jack's affection...just not the likely winner.

[greenfrog]

We will never know for sure which direction the relationship would have gone, so most of us will choose the best scenario, Jack meeting Ennis at Pine Creek and Ennis agreeing to the life that they both want together. It's a dream but a nice one anyway.

Sounds nice to me     

[dodoLea]

We will never know for sure which direction the relationship would have gone, so most of us will choose the best scenario, Jack meeting Ennis at Pine Creek and Ennis agreeing to the life that they both want together. It's a dream but a nice one anyway.

I also like to think  in this way, but who really knows. Jack's  state of mind was so restless and discouraged at the same time.He wants more from Ennis but it seems to him that Ennis is happy as they are, it's hard to see for him.

[CrimsonSky]

Wow!  I think you have just pierced my heart where this scene is concerned.  As angry as Jack appeared in this scene, it was obvious that he was pouring out his heart to Ennis.  Jack's words may have hurt Ennis in a way, but there had to be some part of Ennis that realized he was dealing with someone who truly loved him and had put up with a lot of heartache just to be with him.  Maybe part of the reason for Ennis's emotional breakdown was that he finally admitted in his heart that this relationship was never just "a thing" where Jack was concerned.

I agree, I think that was the point where Ennis finally realised the extent of Jack's feelings, that it was all very well telling Jack "if you can't fix it, you've gotta stand it", but Jack couldn't stand it anymore, he'd been trying to stand it for 20 years and it had been tearing him apart for all that time. Ennis's body language is very telling in that scene, at first he tells Jack to "go ahead" and say what he wants to say, Ennis believes he has the moral high ground because Jack's admitted to cheating on him, and as far as Ennis is concerned, nothing Jack says can justify that. But as Jack starts to let out all his frustrations, Ennis turns his back to him, as if to block out what Jack is saying, because he realises he (Ennis) has to bear some of the responsibility for Jack's actions. Ennis says "it's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this", but I think the unspoken other side to it is that Ennis realises that it's because of him that Jack is how he is, broken, lost and lonely, and that's why he had to resort to other men. Up until that point, Ennis seems unaware (or unwilling to realise)  just how deep Jack's love for him is, and it's only when Jack spells it out loud and clear that he has no choice but to recognise it. Only the strongest, deepest, most intense and unconditional kind of love could cause that level of pain and anguish, but at the same time, be strong enough to keep Jack coming back for more. And Jack would have been back in November, whatever had been said, even if Jack had maybe considered living with Randall as a last resort, he would've given Ennis an ultimatum about it first, in the hope it would give Ennis the push he needed to agree to them being together. 

[tpe]

Interesting point you bring up tpe.  Unfortunately the story's tragic ending prevents us from ever knowing what Jack's intentions were regarding Ennis.  So many possible directions could have taken place after their final meeting.  Jack was definitely making his true feelings toward Ennis known.  However, we don't know if Jack was really going to take a step forward without Ennis.  The answer would have been in the postcard...had Jack lived to answer it. :\'(

Yes, that's why Jack's love for Ennis also assumes a more tragic cast in the end.  Because his wish went largely unfulfilled.  Life is freqeuntly like this, no?

 

[tpe]

I suppose Jack could have done what his father siad he intended to - left Lureen and moved to Lightning Flat with Randall, if Randall wanted to go with him. He could have replied to the postcard simply  saying that he wasn;t going to come, and Ennis would never have known where he was - he had no reason to go to Lightning Flat himself.

More likely, though, IMO, is that the Randall-and-Jack-at-LF scenario is Jak's invention or a spur-of-the-moment suggestion made when his father was bugging him about all his promises to bring Ennis and make something out of the ranch. I don't know whether he would ever have seriously considered it.

I suspect that he qould have considered it.  Then again, it's just an opinion.  But nearly 20 years of frustration is a powerful incentive.

[tpe]

We will never know for sure which direction the relationship would have gone, so most of us will choose the best scenario, Jack meeting Ennis at Pine Creek and Ennis agreeing to the life that they both want together. It's a dream but a nice one anyway.

Jack's love was intertwined with a dream.  At least we know that in the end, Ennis came to a realization of howe much the dreamer loved him and how he so loved Jack.

[tpe]

Lets face it, in the story Jack had been ridin' more than bulls in the four years they were apart, he was a sex tourist in Mexaco in the film.  Randall was dropping hints the size of house bricks to Jack - and he did not say no. Who would to a bearded available hunk with access to a cabin ?

Jack was going for the sweet life with randall and Ennis had had 20 years to s*** or get off the pot.

The tragedy is Ennis only realised after what a fool he had been when he heard it from Jacks Father.

Ennis must have felt terrible that moment when John Twist was speaking about his son.  After all, he could not have suspected that Jack was considering other plans.  It was tantamount to betrayal, but Ennis let it be. I think it was because he realized that he was also to blame and that Jack must have suffered.

 

[tpe]

We will never know for sure which direction the relationship would have gone, so most of us will choose the best scenario, Jack meeting Ennis at Pine Creek and Ennis agreeing to the life that they both want together. It's a dream but a nice one anyway.

I also like to think  in this way, but who really knows. Jack's  state of mind was so restless and discouraged at the same time.He wants more from Ennis but it seems to him that Ennis is happy as they are, it's hard to see for him.

I agree.  We can think of it this way: had Jack lived, the prospects could have been less palatable to us.  Who knows the twists and turns of the human heart?

[tpe]

I agree, I think that was the point where Ennis finally realised the extent of Jack's feelings, that it was all very well telling Jack "if you can't fix it, you've gotta stand it", but Jack couldn't stand it anymore, he'd been trying to stand it for 20 years and it had been tearing him apart for all that time. Ennis's body language is very telling in that scene, at first he tells Jack to "go ahead" and say what he wants to say, Ennis believes he has the moral high ground because Jack's admitted to cheating on him, and as far as Ennis is concerned, nothing Jack says can justify that. But as Jack starts to let out all his frustrations, Ennis turns his back to him, as if to block out what Jack is saying, because he realises he (Ennis) has to bear some of the responsibility for Jack's actions. Ennis says "it's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this", but I think the unspoken other side to it is that Ennis realises that it's because of him that Jack is how he is, broken, lost and lonely, and that's why he had to resort to other men. Up until that point, Ennis seems unaware (or unwilling to realise)  just how deep Jack's love for him is, and it's only when Jack spells it out loud and clear that he has no choice but to recognise it. Only the strongest, deepest, most intense and unconditional kind of love could cause that level of pain and anguish, but at the same time, be strong enough to keep Jack coming back for more. And Jack would have been back in November, whatever had been said, even if Jack had maybe considered living with Randall as a last resort, he would've given Ennis an ultimatum about it first, in the hope it would give Ennis the push he needed to agree to them being together. 

I somehow like the fact that here is a hint of the Fall in Jack's love for Ennis close to the end of his life.  It makes that love more precious, in my eyes.  We often like to think that there is a love that lasts forever, but even the most ardent love cannot remain completely unaffected by fears. frustrations, and a loss of hope.  In the end, Jack's love for Ennis was not perfect.  Jack was very far from perfect.  Perhaps that is why Ennis loved him so.  Perhaps that is why we love him so.  It is because Jack is so human.  His imperfect love teaches us the meaning of what it means to live, and informs each of us that love can go on and can at last be realized by the other -- even beyond death itself.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

Yes, that's why Jack's love for Ennis also assumes a more tragic cast in the end.  Because his wish went largely unfulfilled.  Life is freqeuntly like this, no?

Tell me about it!  It's why so many of us identify in part or in full with this story. :\'(

[aintfoolin]

Yep, Jack was so indeed human in the way he felt and dealt with his situation. His wishes went unfulfilled, unrealized but as the saying goes "That's life" In so many ways  this fact certainly makes the story so real, So many can relate and apply it to their own lives. and this is why we are still so caught up in the messages of this classic, unforgettable film. That love this deeply felt reminds us that we are all human with built in frailty.   It spoke to us. The force of the nature of Jack's deep  love for Ennis spanned 20 long years. It was Undeniable.

[ksxks]

I somehow like the fact that here is a hint of the Fall in Jack's love for Ennis close to the end of his life.  It makes that love more precious, in my eyes.  We often like to think that there is a love that lasts forever, but even the most ardent love cannot remain completely unaffected by fears. frustrations, and a loss of hope.  In the end, Jack's love for Ennis was not perfect.  Jack was very far from perfect.  Perhaps that is why Ennis loved him so.  Perhaps that is why we love him so.  It is because Jack is so human.  His imperfect love teaches us the meaning of what it means to live, and informs each of us that love can go on and can at last be realized by the other -- even beyond death itself.

Beautiful words, Thomas.  This whole subject just makes my heart ache, for both of them.  This is so true, that the imperfectness of their love makes it even more meaningful, and allows us to relate even more closely to them.  It's not a story of two people who had a wonderful sweet life together for years and then one died.  It's their yearning toward but never quite getting there that is the heartache...  And yes, Jack's love was imperfect, but yet so strong.

kathy 

[tpe]

kathy, no human love, is perfect, no?  I think that is what makes it all so precious.  That Jack loved Ennis imperfectly makes me love him all the more.  And the same can be certainly said of Ennis's love for Jack.