Topic: Jack's love for Ennis

[Valandil Eluch]

I think that Jack is the kind of persons that need to express his feelings in order to feel good with himself unfortunately it was really difficult for him since Ennis totally the opposite unable to express his feelings, this situation obviously affected Jack from the begining when they were on their first days on Brokeback you notice a clear attraction from Jack towards Ennis and in the FNIT is more evident when Ennis woke up and he grabs his hair their lips are so close you see his breathing that was something he was expecting and hoping to happen. Jack loved Ennis and he found the way to show him that with his caress and his unfinished comments, knowing Ennis like he did he was aware that saying something about I love you or  I am yours would be to queer for Ennis and that would mean the end of the relationship. But even though as he said he was not as strong as Ennis and he cheated Ennis with other men his eyes that were full of hope and happiness every time he was with Ennis showed us how he loved him. what upsets me is that some people called lust those 20 years and I tell you that was not lust when you have lust you go and do it with everyone that you like not with one person with whom you had a long relationship. it is true Jack had occasional sex but that doesn’t make us to judge him that he don’t love Ennis of course he do,  that scene after the divorce broke my heart because Jack’s face was not happy was frustrated was destroyed he knew that what he was doing was not correct but still it was his own way to deal with it. I mentioned it before Mexico and Randall  were his way to hide from reality, to hide himself the fact that Ennis Del Mar was not with him. Jack surely loved Ennis taking his shirts to remember him was more than enough I can tell you he needed something to remember Ennis and i can guarantee that he did exactly as Ennis did with the shirts he smelled them not only once but many times. Jack was not afraid to leave everything to pursue his life with Ennis and that is not love?

I know a man that was one of the most richest man here and he fell for a woman that was not from his economic class and no matter the threads from his family he left everything for her be cause he love her.

Jack loved Ennis and that is a fact whether he did some mistakes on the road of his love that is another story but he was meant for Ennis Annie told that in her story they were one The day they realized they were more than coworker’s their soul merged as one, they were one soul trapped in two bodies and no matter how much people want to argue (and i don’t mean any of you)  they were truly in love, their love was more stronger by the years. Unfortunately Jack was hopeless at the end but his love still intact in his heart he lost the hopes but not his love Ennis was his happiness and his doom, that is the magic of this movie their happy moments were their doom because they couldn’t live with each other. I would never think that he would have go on with another one it is not in Jack’s nature he would have tried but “he just can wish how to quit him” because he was unable. Jack if he didn’t died may have tried to have a new life but his heart would have called upon him and remind him that he love Ennis, there’s only one true love and that one is forever.

When my mother died my father tried to get married again but he was never able years later i asked him when i was 19 and he told me the he was unable to quit my mother (yes he said quit)  that he loved her and still loved her because they were soul mates. That what Ennis and Jack were soul mates and the love they share is more stronger and bigger than any other i have seeing (including the straight couples) no love would go beyond 20 years without saying I love you, the words for them were not necessary but it would have help them a lot but that is part of another thread

Carlos ...

[tpe]

I think that Jack is the kind of persons that need to express his feelings in order to feel good with himself unfortunately it was really difficult for him since Ennis totally the opposite unable to express his feelings, this situation obviously affected Jack from the begining when they were on their first days on Brokeback you notice a clear attraction from Jack towards Ennis and in the FNIT is more evident when Ennis woke up and he grabs his hears their lips are so close you see his breathing that was something he was expecting and hoping to happen. Jack loved Ennis and he found the way to show him that with his caress and his unfinished comments, knowing Ennis like he did he was aware that saying something about I love you or  I am yours would be to queer for Ennis and that would mean the end of the relationship. But even though as he said he was not as strong as Ennis and he cheated Ennis with other men his eyes that were full of hope and happiness every time he was with Ennis showed us how he loved him. what upsets me is that some people called lust those 20 years and I tell you that was not lust when you have lust you go and do it with everyone that you like not with one person with whom you had a long relationship. it is true Jack had occasional sex but that doesn’t make us to judge him that he don’t love Ennis of course he do,  that scene after the divorce broke my heart because Jack’s face was not happy was frustrated was destroyed he knew that what he was doing was not correct but still it was his own way to deal with it. I mentioned it before Mexico and Randall  were his way to hide from reality to hide himself the fact that Ennis Del Mar was not with him. Jack surely loved Ennis taking his shirts to remember him was more than enough I can tell you he needed something to remember Ennis and i can guarantee that he did exactly as Ennis did with the shirts he smelled them not only once but many times. Jack was not afraid to leave everything to pursue his life with Ennis and that is not love?

I know a man that was one of the most richest man here and he fell for a woman that was not from his economic class and no matter the threads from his family he left everything for her be cause he love her.

Jack loved Ennis and that is a fact whether he did some mistakes on the road of his love that is another story but he was mean for Ennis Annie told that in her story they were one The day they realized they were more than coworker’s their soul merged as one, they were one soul trapped in two bodies and no matter how much people want to argue (and i don’t mean any of you)  they were truly in love, their love was more stronger by the years. Unfortunately Jack was hopeless at the end but his love still intact in his heart he lost the hopes but not his love Ennis was his happiness and his doom, that is the magic of this movie their happy moments were their doom because they couldn’t live with each other. I would never think that he would have go on with another one it is not in Jack’s nature he would have tried but “he just can wish how to quit him” because he was unable. Jack if he didn’t died may have tried to have a new life but his heart would have called upon him and remind him that he love Ennis, there’s only one true love and that one is forever.

When my mother died my father tried to get married again but he was never able years later i asked him when i was 19 and he told me the he was unable to quit my mother (yes he said quit)  that he loved her and still lover her because they were soul mates. That what Ennis and Jack were soul mates and the love they share is more stronger and bigger than any other i have seeing (including the straight couples) no love would go beyond 20 years without saying I love you, the words for them were not necessary but it would have help them a lot but that is part of another thread

Carlos ...

Wow.

[Patriot1]

Carlos, ...on the cheek of course you wonderful straight guy.

[frances]

That what Ennis and Jack were soul mates and the love they share is more stronger and bigger than any other i have seeing (including the straight couples)

SOULMATES. Love this word and loved your beautiful and moving post so much.
Thanks, Carlos

[LuvJackNasty]

Oh Carlos you got me going again.  :'(

That was beautiful!

[NoReins]

At the end of that heartbreaking moment, the fact that Jack doesn't continue to push, or do anything more than hold his lover close to share the burden of that hopelessness, without adding the burdens of his own dreams and desires, is another great example of Jack's love.  Jack is just letting be, letting be, for that moment.

You know, I hadn't really though about that. Of course, in the story, the "sweet life" discussion happens in the motel so Jack does add to Ennis's burden - maybe now I'm beginning to understand why that section was moved to later. I know that Annie Proulx wanted the motel scene to remain intact but she was blown away when she saw the way it worked. Maybe it's totally right that the motel scene shows only the love between them, with none of the debate and pressure that comes later.

Too late   . This is probably my favourite shot in which Heath shows he can match Jake in terms of showing the expression in his eyes - so much pain and need and disappointment in one look. If only Jack could have seen the expression as he told him 'i dunno', and realised Ennis was in a world of hurt over the hopelessness of their lives together at that point. I cry because i see it and understand - and Jack never does

I have a different take on this. I also wish that Jack could see Ennis's face when he says "I dunno" but that's because I see him smile slightly there and if Jack could see that, he would see confirmation that Ennis had been dreaming of this moment just as much as Jack had. It's only afterwards when Jack brings them back to the present that his face shows despair.

[tpe]

I have a different take on this. I also wish that Jack could see Ennis's face when he says "I dunno" but that's because I see him smile slightly there and if Jack could see that, he would see confirmation that Ennis had been dreaming of this moment just as much as Jack had. It's only afterwards when Jack brings them back to the present that his face shows despair.

NoReins, there are indeed few times when Ennis smiles this way, and I have always paired that happy smile with this sad and wistful one:



This comment of mine belongs more to the thread discussing Ennis's love for Jack.

But Jack's smiles in the same vein can also be appreciated.

One of the most beautiful is at the very beginning of the scenes on BBM, where Jack is up with the sheep at night, he sees Ennis's campfire done below...and smiles...

[MississaugaRed]

You know, I hadn't really though about that. Of course, in the story, the "sweet life" discussion happens in the motel so Jack does add to Ennis's burden - maybe now I'm beginning to understand why that section was moved to later. I know that Annie Proulx wanted the motel scene to remain intact but she was blown away when she saw the way it worked. Maybe it's totally right that the motel scene shows only the love between them, with none of the debate and pressure that comes later.

So true, Lindsey, it's very right, for the reason's you've mentioned and I think maybe for others too.

One part of the SS motel scene I'm glad they left out of the film was the discussion they have about their sex lives over the prior 4 years.  Ennis telling Jack he'd never felt sexually with a woman what he feels with Jack, asking Jack if he'd ever thought of doing it with another man, Jack saying "Sh*t, no!".  Which, we know, would have been a lie.

And I can't see this film having the same impact on us if we go from this point KNOWING Jack was starting off their 16 year affair by outright lying to Ennis.  Don't ask, don't tell, okay, you'd gone your separate ways for 4 years, married and had families, now you're admitting it's impossible to stay away from each other.  But I think it would have altered our persception of their relationshiop and damaged the sympathy we have for both men if they started this with out and out lies spoken between them.  That's how it seems to me, anyway.  :-\

We can hurt for Jack, understand him, forgive him for Mexico and the rest after we've seen what he's been through for and because of Ennis for so many years.  Jack may refain from speaking of parts of his life away from Ennis, admit to an affair while changing the 'he" to "she", but in the end, when Ennis point blank asks him if he's been to Mexico, he doesn't lie to him.  He avoids speaking full truth to Ennis because he knows he can't handle it, but when asked direct he will show his love and respect by not speaking lies.  Another way Jack shows his love, even if it's not a "pretty" way.

[tpe]

You know, I hadn't really though about that. Of course, in the story, the "sweet life" discussion happens in the motel so Jack does add to Ennis's burden - maybe now I'm beginning to understand why that section was moved to later. I know that Annie Proulx wanted the motel scene to remain intact but she was blown away when she saw the way it worked. Maybe it's totally right that the motel scene shows only the love between them, with none of the debate and pressure that comes later.

So true, Lindsey, it's very right, for the reason's you've mentioned and I think maybe for others too.

One part of the SS motel scene I'm glad they left out of the film was the discussion they have about their sex lives over the prior 4 years.  Ennis telling Jack he'd never felt sexually with a woman what he feels with Jack, asking Jack if he'd ever thought of doing it with another man, Jack saying "Sh*t, no!".  Which, we know, would have been a lie.

And I can't see this film having the same impact on us if we go from this point KNOWING Jack was starting off their 16 year affair by outright lying to Ennis.  Don't ask, don't tell, okay, you'd gone your separate ways for 4 years, married and had families, now you're admitting it's impossible to stay away from each other.  But I think it would have altered our persception of their relationshiop and damaged the sympathy we have for both men if they started this with out and out lies spoken between them.  That's how it seems to me, anyway.  :-\

We can hurt for Jack, understand him, forgive him for Mexico and the rest after we've seen what he's been through for and becasue of Ennis for so many years.  Jack may refain from speaking of parts of his life away from Ennis, admit to an affair while changing the 'he" to "she", but in the end, when Ennis point blank asks him if he's been to Mexico, he doesn't lie to him.  He avoids speaking full truth to Ennis because he knows he can't handle it, but when asked direct he will show his love and respect by not speaking lies.  Another way Jack shows his love, even if it's not a "pretty" way.

Exquisite.

[NoReins]

[One part of the SS motel scene I'm glad they left out of the film was the discussion they have about their sex lives over the prior 4 years.  Ennis telling Jack he'd never felt sexually with a woman what he feels with Jack, asking Jack if he'd ever thought of doing it with another man, Jack saying "Sh*t, no!".  Which, we know, would have been a lie.

Hmmm. I think Ennis actually asked him "You ever do it with other guys, Jack?" rather than whether he ever thought about it. In terms of the story, we'd have known Jack was lying because of the next line (...who had been riding more than bulls, not rolling his own) but in terms of the movie, we'd have be none the wiser, since we have seen Jack try to get off with Jimbo, but failing.

I'm undecided about the sex discussion. On the one hand, I think it's nice that we see it at a romantic level, arms round each other, talking intimately. But some of the things that are said in that discussion make Ennis seem so much more open and really show his feelings for Jack. In particular, I'm thinking about the bit where he tells Jack about the gut cramps - hinting that if he'd realised sooner what he was feeling then things might have been different. Ah, I dunno...

[MississaugaRed]

I'm undecided about the sex discussion. On the one hand, I think it's nice that we see it at a romantic level, arms round each other, talking intimately. But some of the things that are said in that discussion make Ennis seem so much more open and really show his feelings for Jack.

Thanks for clarifying the wording there, don't have my SP handy, memory ain't what it was in my daddy's day. 

This is a connundrum, for sure, huh?

I honestly try not to compare the SS to the SP or film too much, since we all agree they are each masterpieces in their own right, and have maybe slightly different slants, whatever; although using bits and pieces from one to clarify the other works often.  Plus, notice how I mess up the words if I don't have my cheat sheet, lol.    I love each incarnatin for it's own unique vision (granting all praise to Annie for creating the original form from which all Brokeback goodness stems!).

I admit that the vision I most strongly gravitate to is the film, and most of my attention goes to it for that reason, I think.  So regarding this motel sex discussion, "Film" Ennis seems to be even more repressed than "SS" Ennis (who would have believed it possible!!), at least verbally, so I guess I find it hard to imagine him putting into words the physicality of his relationship with Jack.(??) Since he keeps referring to it as "thing"  or "this thing" and all.  Much as we'd like to hear them both give voice to their feelings more freely, darn it ...

I actually love how because they are given fewer words in places they instead have to speak with their eyes, touches, bodie, actions - and that we get to "feel" their emotions with them this way.   SNIT being just one very fine example of that tradeoff. 

  In particular, I'm thinking about the bit where he tells Jack about the gut cramps - hinting that if he'd realised sooner what he was feeling then things might have been different. Ah, I dunno...

Yeah, it would have been sweet if Ennis had admitted that to Jack, wouldn't it?  I think Jack would have been stunned to know Ennis had felt so strongly all those years back ... although then he might have really started thinking about all the lost time, the what if's ...

Ah, I dunno, either, I guess.   :-\

Maybe virtually ignoring those lost four years, summing them up with few words, was a way both men could show their love to the other.  They hadn't been together, so those times have no place in the relationship they were going to build going forward.

Now I'm just confusing myself ... not hard to do!

[Sunflower79]

 :o I am so impressed..the love that Jack felt for Ennis was shown so many times...the tenderness, the smiles just everything..and I agree that after 20 years he couldn't just quit him..it would mean walking away..and I don't think he could really do that..
That ending scene really gets me every time..

At the end of that heartbreaking moment, the fact that Jack doesn't continue to push, or do anything more than hold his lover close to share the burden of that hopelessness, without adding the burdens of his own dreams and desires, is another great example of Jack's love.  Jack is just letting be, letting be, for that moment.

I agree he was letting me, and wanting to hold this one moment close to his heart..when I was watching the movie I noticed that that last night in the tent they were holding each other..it was a peaceful moment, the world was quite and resting..it was a sweet moment..the with the argument the next day...and the end with Ennis and Jack holding on to each other the flashback scene..its so heartbreaking..and shows that love survived the test of time..with the heart ache and sadness..it survived 20 years..
thats my ramblings for now 

[aimi15]

At the end of that heartbreaking moment, the fact that Jack doesn't continue to push, or do anything more than hold his lover close to share the burden of that hopelessness, without adding the burdens of his own dreams and desires, is another great example of Jack's love.  Jack is just letting be, letting be, for that moment.

You know, I hadn't really though about that. Of course, in the story, the "sweet life" discussion happens in the motel so Jack does add to Ennis's burden - maybe now I'm beginning to understand why that section was moved to later. I know that Annie Proulx wanted the motel scene to remain intact but she was blown away when she saw the way it worked. Maybe it's totally right that the motel scene shows only the love between them, with none of the debate and pressure that comes later.

Too late   . This is probably my favourite shot in which Heath shows he can match Jake in terms of showing the expression in his eyes - so much pain and need and disappointment in one look. If only Jack could have seen the expression as he told him 'i dunno', and realised Ennis was in a world of hurt over the hopelessness of their lives together at that point. I cry because i see it and understand - and Jack never does

I have a different take on this. I also wish that Jack could see Ennis's face when he says "I dunno" but that's because I see him smile slightly there and if Jack could see that, he would see confirmation that Ennis had been dreaming of this moment just as much as Jack had. It's only afterwards when Jack brings them back to the present that his face shows despair.

Yes, on reading what i posted i should have probably got what i meant clearer in my mind, but sometimes have habit of posting when i have let my emotion get the better of me!! You are right, what i meant to say was i wish Jack could have seen the expression on Ennis' face throughout the time they were talking then he would have realised how much he meant to him, how much he had dreamed of the moment they could be reunited. Got a bit fixated on the screencap that was posted  :-[

[greenfrog]

Jack will never love anyone as much as he loved Ennis.  :\'(



And I doubt Ennis will ever love anyone as much as he loved Jack (even if he couldn't admit it).

[tpe]

They were fated, even if they were star-crossed.

Jack's love for Ennis may not be always faithful.  But Ennis was his fixed point.  All roads lead to one terminus.

[rick65]

If you look at the small things, gentle touches, and respect that Jack showed Ennis, even when it hurt himself, Jack's love could not be considered less than of great importance. Although he demonstrates kindness to all people, e'en those 'gainst 'im, he could only emotionally connect with Ennis. After Ennis fell down from the horse when he met the bear, Jack's expression was one of compassion and worry when he saw the injury on Ennis' right side of the face. He instantly takes off his bandanna, wets it and tries to apply on the wound. Later in the film, years later in the story, when he talks to Ennis by the river and tries to comfort him, Jack again strokes Ennis' cheek. These are just some examples of action which show that Jack held Ennis as more than a friend, more than a date, but rather as a true companion whose emotions he felt as his own.
I'm sorry if this has been said before, I had some free time to write a glimmer of my thoughts.

[LuvJackNasty]

but rather as a true companion whose emotions he felt as his own.

Beautiful post Rick. I especially loved the above line.

[tpe]

If you look at the small things, gentle touches, and respect that Jack showed Ennis, even when it hurt himself, Jack's love could not be considered less than of great importance. Although he demonstrates kindness to all people, e'en those 'gainst 'im, he could only emotionally connect with Ennis. After Ennis fell down from the horse when he met the bear, Jack's expression was one of compassion and worry when he saw the injury on Ennis' right side of the face. He instantly takes off his bandanna, wets it and tries to apply on the wound. Later in the film, years later in the story, when he talks to Ennis by the river and tries to comfort him, Jack again strokes Ennis' cheek. These are just some examples of action which show that Jack held Ennis as more than a friend, more than a date, but rather as a true companion whose emotions he felt as his own.
I'm sorry if this has been said before, I had some free time to write a glimmer of my thoughts.

I echo LJN here: thanks rick65 for this beautiful post.

There is something I have observed while reading your post:  Jack always made it a point to touch Ennis -- make the connection physical.  Even in the motel scene, that most intimate of scenes, he reinforces the connection by the embrace with his arm.

This is so Jack.  He makes love with his hands.

 

[welshwitch]

Probablyt OT but I think that shows that JG has been in love or watched those who are - it's what you do when you're in love with someone and with them - you can hardly believe they're real, so you touch them, you want to feel close to them so you touch them, you want to show how aware of them you are so you touch them - dozens of reasons for doing this if you're a demonstrative person, and sometimes if you're not loves makes you one.

[tpe]

Probablyt OT but I think that shows that JG has been in love or watched those who are - it's what you do when you're in love with someone and with them - you can hardly believe they're real, so you touch them, you want to feel close to them so you touch them, you want to show how aware of them you are so you touch them - dozens of reasons for doing this if you're a demonstrative person, and sometimes if you're not loves makes you one.

A wonderful point, welshwitch.   When in love, there is that feeling that you have to touch in order to believe.

 

[aintfoolin]

 Hi everybody. Been gone for awhile dealing with some famly issues and the recent loss of my dad. But i'mglad to see that BBM mania is still running wild!  Wow, Jack's love for Ennis. What more can be said? This is a love that  truly never grows old. The many ways in which Jack expressed his love is endless,patient,solid and is to admired.

After four f...ckin long years it was STILL there. It was Jack who finally akknowledged this and sent the postcard, much to Ennis delight as he was definitly stuck in nuetral with Alma. Out of this love Jack took a major gamble that Ennis would still feel something and boy did it pay off. I mostly identify with Ennis, but if I had his choice I'd have chosen Jack Twist to love too.Definitly!

[tpe]

OOT:  I am sorry, aintfoolin , to hear about your loss. 

Yes, I have no difficulty empathizing on Ennis's love for Jack.  That's because he has found in Jack a person who persisted in loving him, in spite of his own personal hesitations and self-doubts.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

Hi everybody. Been gone for awhile dealing with some famly issues and the recent loss of my dad. But i'mglad to see that BBM mania is still running wild!  Wow, Jack's love for Ennis. What more can be said? This is a love that  truly never grows old. The many ways in which Jack expressed his love is endless,patient,solid and is to admired.

After four f...ckin long years it was STILL there. It was Jack who finally akknowledged this and sent the postcard, much to Ennis delight as he was definitly stuck in nuetral with Alma. Out of this love Jack took a major gamble that Ennis would still feel something and boy did it pay off. I mostly identify with Ennis, but if I had his choice I'd have chosen Jack Twist to love too.Definitly!

You're right!  Jack did acknowledge there was love  there first.  He may not have actually said it, but it was clear what was in Jack's heart when he first suggested he and Ennis get a place together.  Jack was willing to give up everything from his current life to spend his remaining days with Ennis.

[Patriot1]

Hi everybody. Been gone for awhile dealing with some famly issues and the recent loss of my dad.

aintfoolin, I am so sorry to hear of your recent loss. I hope you are well.

[aintfoolin]

Thanks P1 and Type for your condolences, I'm fine thanks.

 Jack loved Ennis,and your right neither said it out loud, but through their actions, most of us felt the intense highs and lows of their love from the beginning to the sad tragic end. Jack was willing to lay it all on the line becuse of what he felt and knew ,although he had to have the patience of Job with Ennis, but I love him for that.

[tpe]

Thanks P1 and Type for your condolences, I'm fine thanks.

 Jack loved Ennis,and your right neither said it out loud, but through their actions, most of us felt the intense highs and lows of their love from the beginning to the sad tragic end. Jack was willing to lay it all on the line becuse of what he felt and knew ,although he had to have the patience of Job with Ennis, but I love him for that.

THis is exactly what I admire about Jack's love: it was demonstrative without being overbearing.  The patience and self-effacing nature of that love compensates for all his failings many times over, IMO.

[Mars]

Thanks P1 and Type for your condolences, I'm fine thanks.

 Jack loved Ennis,and your right neither said it out loud, but through their actions, most of us felt the intense highs and lows of their love from the beginning to the sad tragic end. Jack was willing to lay it all on the line becuse of what he felt and knew ,although he had to have the patience of Job with Ennis, but I love him for that.

THis is exactly what I admire about Jack's love: it was demonstrative without being overbearing.  The patience and self-effacing nature of that love compensates for all his failings many times over, IMO.

Ditto!!

[lamusica]

I'm undecided about the sex discussion. On the one hand, I think it's nice that we see it at a romantic level, arms round each other, talking intimately. But some of the things that are said in that discussion make Ennis seem so much more open and really show his feelings for Jack. In particular, I'm thinking about the bit where he tells Jack about the gut cramps - hinting that if he'd realised sooner what he was feeling then things might have been different. Ah, I dunno...

I think the point you are making here, No Reins, is valid and important.  We don't hear Ennis declare any love for Jack, but we don't really see much of any of their time together.  I think we have to take the characters as the author created them.  She didn't create a cold Ennis, just a lonely, private, rather closed-mouth man.  When he was with Jack, he was more open and might have actually expressed his love verbally.  We just don't know.  The point I'm trying to make is that I don't think we should keep the SS men and the film men separate.  Ennis is Ennis and Jack is Jack, no matter where they appear and we have to take them as Annie painted them.  All we can do, then, is speculate about what one might have said to another or done to, with and for the other.  That's where the fun comes in.  Since we don't really KNOW for sure, whatever we want to think is right for us.

[greenfrog]

Thanks P1 and Type for your condolences, I'm fine thanks.

 Jack loved Ennis,and your right neither said it out loud, but through their actions, most of us felt the intense highs and lows of their love from the beginning to the sad tragic end. Jack was willing to lay it all on the line becuse of what he felt and knew ,although he had to have the patience of Job with Ennis, but I love him for that.

THis is exactly what I admire about Jack's love: it was demonstrative without being overbearing.  The patience and self-effacing nature of that love compensates for all his failings many times over, IMO.

Agreed 

[ksxks]

I'm undecided about the sex discussion. On the one hand, I think it's nice that we see it at a romantic level, arms round each other, talking intimately. But some of the things that are said in that discussion make Ennis seem so much more open and really show his feelings for Jack. In particular, I'm thinking about the bit where he tells Jack about the gut cramps - hinting that if he'd realised sooner what he was feeling then things might have been different. Ah, I dunno...

I think the point you are making here, No Reins, is valid and important.  We don't hear Ennis declare any love for Jack, but we don't really see much of any of their time together.  I think we have to take the characters as the author created them.  She didn't create a cold Ennis, just a lonely, private, rather closed-mouth man.  When he was with Jack, he was more open and might have actually expressed his love verbally.  We just don't know.  The point I'm trying to make is that I don't think we should keep the SS men and the film men separate.  Ennis is Ennis and Jack is Jack, no matter where they appear and we have to take them as Annie painted them.  All we can do, then, is speculate about what one might have said to another or done to, with and for the other.  That's where the fun comes in.  Since we don't really KNOW for sure, whatever we want to think is right for us.

(Greenfrog, we both ended up here tonight.)

This is a wonderful subject, and a lot of insightful posts.  Jack is such a beautiful man, and if this beautiful-hearted person loved Ennis, then Ennis is worthy of that love, even though he had his fears that kept him from giving Jack what he wanted.

I like what you said, lamusica -- since we were given rather less than more, there is so much we get to fill in ourselves.

kathy