Topic: Jack's love for Ennis

[Twisted]

Thomas, I don't know what to say. It's perfect. That's all. :\'(

Same here.! :\'(

[tizi17]

i just jumped on this thread strolling around - i cannot stop sobbing.
such wonderful posts, such beautiful answers and even more questions to my feelings ...

how can you bare a situation like this? in 20 years time (16), from time to time, never talking about anything? never expressing the slightest feelings? never trying to find a way?

i had a little story, not even close to j&e of course, it lasted for about 6 years - seen each other twice a year; me trying to do what i could to bring light and futur into it, the other just taking, refusing to accept that there were deeper emotions between us. after trying and trying i didn't come to a year's appointment; i couldn't stand the idea of being left alone again any more, not achieving what i yearned to have.
took me quite a while; but was good for me and my emotional health...

until i came in touch with BBM....
but i know YOU are there - help me get out of this...

tizi

[LuvJackNasty]

Beautiful Thomas  :\'(

[LuvJackNasty]

Hi Tizi,

Their story is our story. I'm sorry things didn't work out the way you wanted them to but you had the strength to do right by yourself and that's something to be proud of. 

This reminded me of something I had been thinking about: in 20 years time (16), from time to time, never talking about anything? never expressing the slightest feelings? never trying to find a way?   I know as one who is expressive that it is hard when you can't be open. Not only was Jack not being validated or hearing what he needed/wanted to hear he was supressed in that he couldn't tell Ennis how he felt- good or bad. Jack held a fear that if he issued an ultimatum he'd lose Ennis and on the flip side if he expressed his feelings (verbally) then he'd risk scaring Ennis off. He had no outlet to share the joy and the pain that this relationship brought him-not even with the one who was making him feel both. 

[greenfrog]

 Faith lights us, even through the Grave,
 being the Evidence of Things not seen.
 And this is the Comfort of the Good,
 that the Grave cannot hold them,
 and that they live as soon as they die.
 For Death is no more than a Turning
 of us over from Time to Eternity.
 Death then, being the Way and Condition of Life,
 we cannot love to live, if we cannot bear to die.

 (William Penn)

Beautiul poem tpe  :\'(  :\'(  :\'(

[FlwrChild]

Hi Tizi,

Their story is our story. I'm sorry things didn't work out the way you wanted them to but you had the strength to do right by yourself and that's something to be proud of. 

This reminded me of something I had been thinking about: in 20 years time (16), from time to time, never talking about anything? never expressing the slightest feelings? never trying to find a way?   I know as one who is expressive that it is hard when you can't be open. Not only was Jack not being validated or hearing what he needed/wanted to hear he was supressed in that he couldn't tell Ennis how he felt- good or bad. Jack held a fear that if he issued an ultimatum he'd lose Ennis and on the flip side if he expressed his feelings (verbally) then he'd risk scaring Ennis off. He had no outlet to share the joy and the pain that this relationship brought him-not even with the one who was making him feel both. 

Oh God, you're absolutely right...poor Jack...

[greenfrog]

Hi Tizi,

Their story is our story. I'm sorry things didn't work out the way you wanted them to but you had the strength to do right by yourself and that's something to be proud of. 

This reminded me of something I had been thinking about: in 20 years time (16), from time to time, never talking about anything? never expressing the slightest feelings? never trying to find a way?   I know as one who is expressive that it is hard when you can't be open. Not only was Jack not being validated or hearing what he needed/wanted to hear he was supressed in that he couldn't tell Ennis how he felt- good or bad. Jack held a fear that if he issued an ultimatum he'd lose Ennis and on the flip side if he expressed his feelings (verbally) then he'd risk scaring Ennis off. He had no outlet to share the joy and the pain that this relationship brought him-not even with the one who was making him feel both. 

Very true Michelle  :\'(  :\'(  :\'(

[ksxks]

Hi Tizi,

Their story is our story. I'm sorry things didn't work out the way you wanted them to but you had the strength to do right by yourself and that's something to be proud of. 

This reminded me of something I had been thinking about: in 20 years time (16), from time to time, never talking about anything? never expressing the slightest feelings? never trying to find a way?   I know as one who is expressive that it is hard when you can't be open. Not only was Jack not being validated or hearing what he needed/wanted to hear he was supressed in that he couldn't tell Ennis how he felt- good or bad. Jack held a fear that if he issued an ultimatum he'd lose Ennis and on the flip side if he expressed his feelings (verbally) then he'd risk scaring Ennis off. He had no outlet to share the joy and the pain that this relationship brought him-not even with the one who was making him feel both. 

So, so true, LJN.  It's so tragic.  Not just Ennis, that is obvious -- but Jack, the incredible capacity for love he had, stifled by Ennis really.  Exactly as you said.

kathy

[Brokeback_1]

This is a pretty good and very practical thread...I will be posting here, methinks!!

[Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree]

Everyone - you must see this! It is brilliant. A slow motion version of the flashback scene. Long, slow, and so sad, so well done.

[tpe]

Thanks friends, for all the wonderful posts.

tizi17, have no regrets.  As with Jack, you tried all you could.   Having stopped trying does not lessen this to any degree.  Be at peace.  The dream does not die.

[FlwrChild]

Everyone - you must see this! It is brilliant. A slow motion version of the flashback scene. Long, slow, and so sad, so well done.

Sorry to go OT but just wanted to mention that the music here is (I'm told) the music that Annie Proulx was listening to when she wrote the dozy embrace scene, which to me makes it that much more poignant.

To get back on topic, if you follow the original short story, it says: "Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that. Let be, let be."

That Jack would keep going back over and over knowing that this might be all that Ennis could ever give him says a great deal, I think, about the strength of his love.

[tizi17]

This is a pretty good and very practical thread...I will be posting here, methinks!!

hey - don't i know you? being back again? welcome!

tizi

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

That Jack would keep going back over and over knowing that this might be all that Ennis could ever give him says a great deal, I think, about the strength of his love.

Ok...I'm crying now. :\'(

[greenfrog]

Everyone - you must see this! It is brilliant. A slow motion version of the flashback scene. Long, slow, and so sad, so well done.

So beautiful . . .  and sad  :\'(  :\'(  :\'(

[LuvJackNasty]

That Jack would keep going back over and over knowing that this might be all that Ennis could ever give him says a great deal, I think, about the strength of his love.

 :\'( Beautifully said. And I think if Ennis had said yes to him after all of those years it would have been worth it to Jack.

[welshwitch]

In my flakier moments I can see Jack as an analogue of the knight and Ennis as the lady in the courtly love tradition, where the knight meets the lady's demands, often by going far away for long periods, and risking all sorts of dangers, and returns hoping for some small acknowledgement of his achievement, even just a smile.

That's what Jack is hoping for when he arrives after the message about the divorce, I think; yes, a life with Ennis but first an acknowledgement of his own persistance and the strength of his love.

[ksxks]

In my flakier moments I can see Jack as an analogue of the knight and Ennis as the lady in the courtly love tradition, where the knight meets the lady's demands, often by going far away for long periods, and risking all sorts of dangers, and returns hoping for some small acknowledgement of his achievement, even just a smile.

That's what Jack is hoping for when he arrives after the message about the divorce, I think; yes, a life with Ennis but first an acknowledgement of his own persistance and the strength of his love.

I don't think this is overly flaky -- I can see this analogy.  It's a great idea, the courtly love tradition as pertains to Ennis and Jack.

But boy, just talking about that scene when Jack comes to Ennis after Ennis's divorce...just breaks my heart.  So, speaking of this, I wonder how Ennis conveyed the divorce information to Jack.  Jack said, "I got your message about the divorce."  Then when he says, "So here I am," oh god.  He is so open and vulnerable there -- kind of holds his arms out, giving himself to Ennis, "here I am."  And gets turned away...

kathy

[tpe]

That Jack would keep going back over and over knowing that this might be all that Ennis could ever give him says a great deal, I think, about the strength of his love.

...and his quiet desperation.

[tpe]

In my flakier moments I can see Jack as an analogue of the knight and Ennis as the lady in the courtly love tradition, where the knight meets the lady's demands, often by going far away for long periods, and risking all sorts of dangers, and returns hoping for some small acknowledgement of his achievement, even just a smile.

That's what Jack is hoping for when he arrives after the message about the divorce, I think; yes, a life with Ennis but first an acknowledgement of his own persistance and the strength of his love.

It is a tragedy that he never got it.  That was perhaps why he remembered the dozy embrace best of all -- it was the closest Ennis ever got to a quiet assurance of that love.

[tpe]

I don't think this is overly flaky -- I can see this analogy.  It's a great idea, the courtly love tradition as pertains to Ennis and Jack.

But boy, just talking about that scene when Jack comes to Ennis after Ennis's divorce...just breaks my heart.  So, speaking of this, I wonder how Ennis conveyed the divorce information to Jack.  Jack said, "I got your message about the divorce."  Then when he says, "So here I am," oh god.  He is so open and vulnerable there -- kind of holds his arms out, giving himself to Ennis, "here I am."  And gets turned away...

kathy

I do think it was that moment of vulnerabilty that was so devastating.  There was nowhere to hide the loss of face and dignity.  It broke Jack.

 

[FlwrChild]

I don't think this is overly flaky -- I can see this analogy.  It's a great idea, the courtly love tradition as pertains to Ennis and Jack.

But boy, just talking about that scene when Jack comes to Ennis after Ennis's divorce...just breaks my heart.  So, speaking of this, I wonder how Ennis conveyed the divorce information to Jack.  Jack said, "I got your message about the divorce."  Then when he says, "So here I am," oh god.  He is so open and vulnerable there -- kind of holds his arms out, giving himself to Ennis, "here I am."  And gets turned away...

kathy

I do think it was that moment of vulnerabilty that was so devastating.  There was nowhere to hide the loss of face and dignity.  It broke Jack.

 

Especially after all this time, settling for 'scraps'. How he must have felt with the idea that finally his heart would be fed and his dream would come true. This was an especially long and brutal fall from the height of that hope to the devastation of the reality (the rejection). [And in my opinion, this was masterfully portrayed by Jake Gyllenhaal]

[tpe]

It was beautifully done.  You can see the anticipation in jack's face -- smacking his lips almost.  A hungry eagerness.  And then, the fall.  He tried to do it with grace.  Even when he wept inside the truck was so restrained. 

You can feel the intense love and frustration in those details.

[LuvJackNasty]

I should have known better than to stop by here while at work. You guys are killing me.  :\'(

I loved the analogy WW and the posts about the divorce?  :\'(

[tpe]

I've been trying to read this and other threads from the early stages.  They are indeed very moving.  I had forgotten how moving some of the early posts and threads have been and remain...

[FlwrChild]

They stand the test of time Thomas!
Undoubtedly because our instinctive responses to this love story don't change.

[welshwitch]

That scene is such an illustration of the proverb "It's better to travel hopefully than to arrive." Jack has such high hopes - we've all been there, but few of us have had our hopes dashed so totally, so immediately, so finally.

[tpe]

If there is anything to describe Ennis's love for Jack, it is faith.

If there is anything to describe Jack's love for Ennis, it is hope.

[tizi17]

it's the worst for me.
i could understand letting be after BBM - the marriage and all.
i understood even the leaving again after 4 years - children and all.
but no! never do i understand why this! everything was open - but probably not ennis'mind.... still so sorry... despite all the fanfic things.

tizi

[FlwrChild]

It wouldn't break our hearts so much if we didn't truly believe that Jack loves Ennis.
But we do and so it does.