Topic: Jack's love for Ennis

[Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree]

it's the worst for me.
i could understand letting be after BBM - the marriage and all.
i understood even the leaving again after 4 years - children and all.
but no! never do i understand why this! everything was open - but probably not ennis'mind.... still so sorry... despite all the fanfic things.

tizi

If I had been Jack i would have moved to be hearer Ennis once he was divorced. Not necesarily the same town - but near. Then start a daily letter campain. But it aint goin to be that way.

[tizi17]

yeah, well i think we all would have our wonderful ideas how to help them along - i love your letter idea..! many fanfic have tried to, yes, it's nice to read some of them - but it ain't. and that hurts... you know a bit like the old titanic thing: you KNOW that there will be that da... iceberg - and every time you think: why don't they ....

tizi

[aimi15]

I find it a testament to the strength of Jack's love for Ennis that he did let him be after the divorce. It broke him emotionally, but the fact that he didn't give Ennis some sort of ultimatum at that point showed me the extent of the love he felt towards him. It was easier for him to wait for Ennis to make the moves in their relationship than to run the risk of losing him altogether. Poor, poor Jack.

[Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree]

yeah, well i think we all would have our wonderful ideas how to help them along - i love your letter idea..! many fanfic have tried to, yes, it's nice to read some of them - but it ain't. and that hurts... you know a bit like the old titanic thing: you KNOW that there will be that da... iceberg - and every time you think: why don't they ....

tizi

Thats what I dislike about a lot of the fanfic (not all). Its like, say Titanic, a long voyage, near miss with an iceberg, everybody arrives safely in New York. Booooring!

The thing about BBM is that it restores the "weepy" to center stage as an art form. Great. Far better than all that candyfloss and mindless violence over the last few years.

[tpe]

That is why there is faith and hope. Both go beyond life and death.  So it is with the love of Jack for Ennis.  It had moved beyond Jack's death and had at last found a home in Ennis.

[Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree]

That is why there is faith and hope. Both go beyond life and death.  So it is with the love of Jack for Ennis.  It had moved beyond Jack's death and had at last found a home in Ennis.

I could not agree more.

[aintfoolin]

I am of the beleif that Jack would'nt have lost Ennis if he gave the ultimatum. Even after the divorce if Jack would've given Ennis the impression that he was'nt going to wait around wishing  and hoping for him to come around instead of just "I'll see you next month then" , maybe Ennis would have had second thoughts about letting him just drive off like that. After all it was Ennis who said "aint no reins on this one".That says to me that despite all his dumbass paranoia, he loved and wanted Jack. But I know Jack had his own fears. I think he underestimated Ennis's desire for him. He should've called his bluff and took that chance. By agreeing to just leave like he did he continued to give Ennis all the upper hand in the relationship.  He never tested Ennis's strong feelins of love for him but instead let Ennis run the show.  He was too araid of loosnig him.  When Ennis realizes that he no longer had Jack ever again, coupled with thoghts about Jack moving on with someone else, I beleive it woul've been Ennis showing up in Texas out of the blue to find JACK.! Don't think he could've lived without him for too long. As always  this my humble opinion.

[lamusica]

I agree with everything you said here, aintfoolin.  I think the poem by jessi posted on the pics with poems thread says it all.   Ennis wanted to make up with Jack and could have done so with a little phone call, but Ennis couldn't talk freely on the phone.  He was a shy, self-conscious man.  He needed to be face-to-face with the person he was talking to, so he waited, intending to make up with Jack in November when they saw each other.  Maybe he was actually going to profess his love for Jack at that time.  However, fate has a way of taking things out of our hands sometimes.  There's no doubt in my mind that Jack would have been anywhere Ennis wanted him to be and with bells on.  You're oh, so right about Jack letting Ennis run the show.  If only Jack had been more forceful, he could have got what he really wanted out of Ennis -- no doubt in my mind about that.  However, we all are what we are.  Hindsight is 20/20.  However, it's too late now that Jack is gone.  We voyeurs just have to accept what is/was.

[tpe]

I do love this thread very much.

[ksxks]

But boy, just talking about that scene when Jack comes to Ennis after Ennis's divorce...just breaks my heart.  So, speaking of this, I wonder how Ennis conveyed the divorce information to Jack.  Jack said, "I got your message about the divorce."  Then when he says, "So here I am," oh god.  He is so open and vulnerable there -- kind of holds his arms out, giving himself to Ennis, "here I am."  And gets turned away...
kathy

I do think it was that moment of vulnerabilty that was so devastating.  There was nowhere to hide the loss of face and dignity.  It broke Jack.
 

It broke Jack...you're so right.  A really strong indication to him that even now that Ennis is "free," he, Jack, still can't have him.  He is one strong man, as you said, nowhere to hide...but he calmly drove away and more than 14 hours just for release.

It was so sad, too, that he said, "I thought that meant..."  Then the dawning realization in his eyes.  Ennis says he's really sorry, and that Jack knows he is...but that's not good enough.  What if the girls hadn't been there?  At least they could have talked it out, and also let their bodies do the talking...but in the end, Jack still wouldn't "have" Ennis.  Unless he was really persuasive somehow.

kathy

[FlwrChild]

One does have to wonder how it would have played out if the girls hadn't been there. I certainly don't think Ennis would have run off with Jack, but the sting of the disappointment might have been lessened. If only for the moment.

[aintfoolin]

Ennis KNEW he was hurting Jack to because when he saw the hurt in Jack's eyes He wispered his name softly as he stepped towards him as if to comfort him and THAT  would'nt have   been good enough either.  For some ungodly (not including the girls)  reason he just lets Jack drive off. Seems to me he should have learned his lesson the first time he let Jack just drive off but that's Ennis.  He can thank his lucky stars that Jack loved and understood him..... but this devastated Jack.I personally kept waitng for him to call Jack back and say "wait here we'll talk later" or something but he did'nt. Unbeleivable.

[tpe]

It broke Jack...you're so right.  A really strong indication to him that even now that Ennis is "free," he, Jack, still can't have him.  He is one strong man, as you said, nowhere to hide...but he calmly drove away and more than 14 hours just for release.

It was so said, too, that he said, "I thought that meant..."  Then the dawning realization in his eyes.  Ennis says he's really sorry, and that Jack knows he is...but that's not good enough.  What if the girls hadn't been there?  At least they could have talked it out, and also let their bodies do the talking...but in the end, Jack still wouldn't "have" Ennis.  Unless he was really persuasive somehow.

kathy

A clear indication of Jack's love for Ennis is that he didn't break up with Ennis there and then.  Few people in real life would bear such humiliation with such equanimity.  You have to love someone very deeply in order to do what he did at that instance: nothing.

[tpe]

One does have to wonder how it would have played out if the girls hadn't been there. I certainly don't think Ennis would have run off with Jack, but the sting of the disappointment might have been lessened. If only for the moment.

The presence of the kids must have acted as a deterrent to a "scene".  Although I doubt that a scene would have occured without the kids present.  As I had said in the last post, Jack loved Ennis too much to do anything drastic at that moment.  I believe that the presence of other peoeple there and then did not change much.

[welshwitch]

All he had to do was ask Jack to wait - he had the girls only for the weekend and Jack must have been prepared to stay, or could have gone on to Kightning flat, presumably the excuse he's given Lureen, and come back in the week when Ennis was alone.

Except in terms of the plot, this scene doesn't make sense - even Ennis surely couldn't have just stood there while Jack drove away?

[tpe]

Ennis KNEW he was hurting Jack to because when he saw the hurt in Jack's eyes He wispered his name softly as he stepped towards him as if to comfort him and THAT  would'nt have   been good enough either.  For some ungodly (not including the girls)  reason he just lets Jack drive off. Seems to me he should have learned his lesson the first time he let Jack just drive off but that's Ennis.  He can thank his lucky stars that Jack loved and understood him..... but this devastated Jack.I personally kept waitng for him to call Jack back and say "wait here we'll talk later" or something but he did'nt. Unbeleivable.

I had just said that the presence of the kids probably did not affect much -- perhaps I spoke in terms of Jack's reaction to the humiliation.  But I wonder if Ennis had been a bit more understanding and demonstrative.  Yes, I think he knew what Jack was going through and seemed like he wanted to reach out.  True, Ennis is not that demonstrative by nature, but there is the great exception: the reunion kiss.  Perhpas he would have reached out to Jack more effectively if the children were not present there and then (say, Ennis still had to pick them up.)

[FlwrChild]

Or had Ennis been on his own that weekend, perhaps it would have been a bit of a re-enactment of the "It ain't gonna be like that/no reins on this" moment, which at least let Jack know that Ennis cared for him, just didn't feel that he could be with him. Instead it was total humiliation, disappointment, defeat. I truly believe it takes a deep deep heart to come back from that and continue to offer up that no pressure, unconditional, 'I'll take what you're able to give me' love. I adore that sweet wounded boy...

[tpe]

Very good point, FlwrChild.  The earlier scene you mentioned is a good model for what could have been, although I don't know if Jack's humiliation would have been less devastating.  Ennis was helpless -- he didn't realize how Jack interpreted the divorce, and now he is in a most awkward situation.  Still, it would have been nice if he had forced Jack to stay.  Perhaps the wound would have healed a little if they were together.

[FlwrChild]

All of their wounds would have healed if they could have found a way to be together.

[tpe]

I think Jack's love for Ennis was not too intrusive.  He justed wanted to see Ennis 2 or maybe 3 times a year.  True, he really wanted more, but I think he was patient and tried to make do with what he had. 

[FlwrChild]

Quite right tpe. Though I think "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" is a very telling declaration. He is not able to compartmentalize his relationship with Ennis, to separate it from his heart while they're apart.

[welshwitch]

It's gotten worse, too, as time has passed - while there was hope in the early days, later it must become evident that they are getting older and their options are becoming more limited, at which point Jack's consciousness of the futility of his feelings must haunt him.

[tpe]

Yes, I do think it was hope that was the being gradually worn down over the years.  Jack seemed to have had a lot of it in the early years.  He MUST have had a lot of it -- considering it lasted him nearly 20 years...

[aintfoolin]

Absolutly right. 20 years is a long, long time to wait for someone. Jack's love and patience had to be strong for him to go along with this for so long. But he had limited options except for an ultimatum. In the last scene when he's older he finally realizes that maybe he's being played  in a sense and calls Ennis on all of it. His love is so  full of passion and so was his anger. and it was this passion that spilled over in the words he used in that fight. He was fighting for his life because he loved Ennis so much more than ever at that point.If the divorce scene is the one that broke Jack , this I feel this is the scene that finally broke Ennis. Faced with the possibility of loosing Jack forever( which by the way is doubtful IMO, but Ennis was scared out of his mind about it) all Jack had to do at this point was to give the ultimatum.
Ennis would have come around rather than loose Jack forever. When he was crying in Jack's arms he was holding on for dear life. The acting in this scene from JG and HL was excellence personified.IMHO

[tpe]

Ennis would have come around rather than loose Jack forever. When he was crying in Jack's arms he was holding on for dear life. The acting in this scene from JG and HL was excellence personified.IMHO

If Jack only got this assurance, I am sure it would have been enough to sustain him.

[ksxks]

Or had Ennis been on his own that weekend, perhaps it would have been a bit of a re-enactment of the "It ain't gonna be like that/no reins on this" moment, which at least let Jack know that Ennis cared for him, just didn't feel that he could be with him. Instead it was total humiliation, disappointment, defeat. I truly believe it takes a deep deep heart to come back from that and continue to offer up that no pressure, unconditional, 'I'll take what you're able to give me' love. I adore that sweet wounded boy...

Me, too.  So much.  He had such capacity for love and forgiveness, and patience.  Sweet wounded boy indeed.  Just breaks my heart.  I do believe that he believed Ennis really truly did love him.  Maybe the first other person who really had.  He knew it, but knew he had to "handle" Ennis right.

kathy

[ksxks]

Absolutly right. 20 years is a long, long time to wait for someone. Jack's love and patience had to be strong for him to go along with this for so long. But he had limited options except for an ultimatum. In the last scene when he's older he finally realizes that maybe he's being played  in a sense and calls Ennis on all of it. His love is so  full of passion and so was his anger. and it was this passion that spilled over in the words he used in that fight. He was fighting for his life because he loved Ennis so much more than ever at that point.If the divorce scene is the one that broke Jack , this I feel this is the scene that finally broke Ennis. Faced with the possibility of loosing Jack forever( which by the way is doubtful IMO, but Ennis was scared out of his mind about it) all Jack had to do at this point was to give the ultimatum. Ennis would have come around rather than loose Jack forever. When he was crying in Jack's arms he was holding on for dear life. The acting in this scene from JG and HL was excellence personified.IMHO

This is excellent, what you said, all of it, and particularly the bolded.  So, so sad, this scene, but so beautiful -- the passion in Jack's anger, the passion in Ennis's breaking down.

kathy

[ksxks]

Thats what I dislike about a lot of the fanfic (not all). Its like, say Titanic, a long voyage, near miss with an iceberg, everybody arrives safely in New York. Booooring!

The thing about BBM is that it restores the "weepy" to center stage as an art form. Great. Far better than all that candyfloss and mindless violence over the last few years.

I love this, the weepy.  Yes, a fine art form.  It's real, this kind of tragedy; it can change us, unlike a sweet HEA story -- though those have their place.  And they do not have to be boring -- there can be lots of conflict and jeopardy, but it gets resolved.  Yet so much of life is not resolved, so a story like this is an important reflection of life.

But I totally understand people's motivations for wanting to write and read fanfic without Jack's death.

kathy

[tpe]

Or had Ennis been on his own that weekend, perhaps it would have been a bit of a re-enactment of the "It ain't gonna be like that/no reins on this" moment, which at least let Jack know that Ennis cared for him, just didn't feel that he could be with him. Instead it was total humiliation, disappointment, defeat. I truly believe it takes a deep deep heart to come back from that and continue to offer up that no pressure, unconditional, 'I'll take what you're able to give me' love. I adore that sweet wounded boy...

Me, too.  So much.  He had such capacity for love and forgiveness, and patience.  Sweet wounded boy indeed.  Just breaks my heart.  I do believe that he believed Ennis really truly did love him.  Maybe the first other person who really had.  He knew it, but knew he had to "handle" Ennis right.

kathy

"Handling" Ennis was quite a feat.  If Jack did lie many times (see related thread), it was to protect the relationship.  He knew what Ennis couldn't handle.  He gauged the threshold quite closely.

[tpe]

Thats what I dislike about a lot of the fanfic (not all). Its like, say Titanic, a long voyage, near miss with an iceberg, everybody arrives safely in New York. Booooring!

The thing about BBM is that it restores the "weepy" to center stage as an art form. Great. Far better than all that candyfloss and mindless violence over the last few years.

I love this, the weepy.  Yes, a fine art form.  It's real, this kind of tragedy; it can change us, unlike a sweet HEA story -- though those have their place.  And they do not have to be boring -- there can be lots of conflict and jeopardy, but it gets resolved.  Yet so much of life is not resolved, so a story like this is an important reflection of life.

But I totally understand people's motivations for wanting to write and read fanfic without Jack's death.

kathy

I think that is the strength of the short story -- a strength which the movie kept intact: that it is a mirror of true life, wherein most things are fated to remain unresolved.