Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: manhattangirl on Jun 05, 2007, 11:29 PM
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What was it about Jack that drew Ennis, Randall, and Lureen to him.
What did they want to see in him? Did Jack represent love or sex or both? Ennis took Jack FNIT, Lureen gave herself to him that first night they met, and Randall made his intentions to Jack clear at the dance. All three took the lead in their relationship with him. why? Was this a pattern with Jack?
They loved him, possessed him in one way or another. Never willing to let him go totally, Lureen never divorced him, Ennis never let Jack out of his life, and Randall, its implied was willing to leave his wife and go off with Jack.
Yes there was something about Jack, but in the end all three fail him in one way or another in the end? They loved him in their way, they wanted him in their way, but did they love him enough, did they give him what he wanted?
Jack never in any of these relationship did he take the lead. He submitted himself to all three. It was like he wanted approval, and when given went with it. Could this have lead to his many disappointments. Ennis knew all too well Jack loved him and wanted him, Lureen had his child, had him, and was satisfied with that, Randall was attracted to him, and wanted him, but how far was it to go? All had or try to get what they could from him, which left Jack adrift almost, looking for a safe and loving harbor, and not really finding it.
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First of all, take a look, the guy was gorgeous! Oozes sensuality, Second he had an almost irresistable charm about him in a social context. He has an ability to engage and draw out even a closed up guy such as Ennis. He drew Randall in with the cute little joke about women powdering their noses. ( Him dressed in all black, did'nt hurt either ):-* :-* <^( <^(.) He is wild and untamed, yet still maintains a sense of restraint and humbleness. These are very attractive virtues in him. . His romantic and gentlemanly approach knocked Lureen for a loop. She had to have him though his financial status contrbuted to his vulnerabilty to her. All the money in the world and Jack Twist too? What more can a girl ask for? ;) ;) Jack was a leader imo opinion, but in the case of lureen, she had the upper hand. He has a presence all his own and wears it well. Having said all that, Why is he so unhappy? All these people could not provide him with what he really needed for different reasons of their own. He definitly clicked with Ennis but was only able to take it so far with him. Jack deserved a medal just for gettin his man to talk for chrissake! An essential part was missing...Ennis himself. He is the one to suit Jack the most, The ideal, but Jack had obligations to Lureen and her fam. So did Ennis and Randall. That complicates things. Jack wanted one man. one love, ,a purpose in life, and a ranch to settle them on. An equal , loving partnership . Dreamer or not, he was not asking for the moon, just one bright star. In that, he would find himself and what he needs and finally be happy with it. . My thoughts.
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I had always thought that it was Jack's vulnerability that attracted them to him.
Ennis certainly felt protective of Jack on BBM, no? And the fact that Jack allowed Ennis to respond to him the way he did gave Ennis confidence in himself.
Lureen certainly viewed Jack as someone who was vulnerable -- shy but receptive. And the softer side of Jack must have appealed to Lureen's dominant nature.
As for Randall, I can only guess that Randall saw through Jack to realize the vulnerability. The offer to spend time at the lake was met with silence -- this can be interpreted as a sign of vulnerability, no?
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It's probably the same reason why we love Jack so much. Atleast I did.
He's good looking, warm and charming. Manly yet playful and full of life and love.
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It's probably the same reason why we love Jack so much. Atleast I did.
He's good looking, warm and charming. Manly yet playful and full of life and love.
It certainly takes deeper understanding to love a person such as Ennis -- where everything is so much buried inside of him. It is certainly much less difficult to love Jack. There is a warmth in him that melts us as it did Ennis.
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For me, the thing is that Jack need Ennis, Lureen and Randall.
Ennis because he loved him.
Lureen for the social masque, until the day Ennis would have at least be ready to live with him.
Randall as a substitute for Ennis.
Jack, in the short story, is not really as gorgeous as Jake is. I rather think they were attracted by him because he was assuming what he was (although he didn't say Lureen he was gay of course). He was true to himself. And this is something that people feel unconciously.
All this made them stay with Jack, contrarly to Ennis, who was fighting against himself and who ended up alone. For Ennis, the only persons who were still in touch with him are his daughters. But for them, being gay or straight wasn't the problem for Ennis, he was just her father. And being a father doesn't require to sleep with girls, so for this part he was true to himself.
I hope you understand what I try to explain.
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For me, the thing is that Jack need Ennis, Lureen and Randall.
Ennis because he loved him.
Lureen for the social masque, until the day Ennis would have at least be ready to live with him.
Randall as a substitute for Ennis.
Jack, in the short story, is not really as gorgeous as Jake is. I rather think they were attracted by him because he was assuming what he was (although he didn't say Lureen he was gay of course). He was true to himself. And this is something that people feel unconciously.
All this made them stay with Jack, contrarly to Ennis, who was fighting against himself and who ended up alone. For Ennis, the only persons who were still in touch with him are his daughters. But for them, being gay or straight wasn't the problem for Ennis, he was just her father. And being a father doesn't require to sleep with girls, so for this part he was true to himself.
I hope you understand what I try to explain.
I think I understand. What you say here is true. It is indeed something that we all feel unconsciously.
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For me, the thing is that Jack need Ennis, Lureen and Randall.
Ennis because he loved him.
Lureen for the social masque, until the day Ennis would have at least be ready to live with him.
Randall as a substitute for Ennis.
Jack, in the short story, is not really as gorgeous as Jake is. I rather think they were attracted by him because he was assuming what he was (although he didn't say Lureen he was gay of course). He was true to himself. And this is something that people feel unconciously.
All this made them stay with Jack, contrarly to Ennis, who was fighting against himself and who ended up alone. For Ennis, the only persons who were still in touch with him are his daughters. But for them, being gay or straight wasn't the problem for Ennis, he was just her father. And being a father doesn't require to sleep with girls, so for this part he was true to himself.
I hope you understand what I try to explain.
Good points! Yes it's understandable.
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Maybe it's just that Jack needs love and acceptance, and responds to it when he gets it.
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Maybe it's just that Jack needs love andcceptance, and responds to it when he gets it.
True!
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Jack, in the short story, is not really as gorgeous as Jake is.
pierralex makes a very good point – There is considerable difference between Movie Jack (gosh, Jake G. - what else do you need to fall in luv, huh?) and SS Jack:
"At first glance Jack seemed fair enough, with his curly hair and quick laugh, but for a small man he carried some weight in the haunch and his smile disclosed buckteeth, not pronounced enough to let him eat popcorn out of the neck of a jug, but noticeable."
Not exactly the glamour movie star type. To me SS Jack must have a deeper inner being that radiates warmth which draws Ennis to him. This is not to say that Movie Jack didn’t have this too, it’s just that SS Jack had little else to make Ennis or Lureen (who we don’t really meet in SS) drawn to him. His smile, his warm, open, and welcoming personality. This would go a long way, especially in a world (mid 20th century American West) where most people, certainly most men, were probably more like Ennis – quiet, private, taciturn, suspicious of folks they don’t know, etc.
OT - This is one aspect of the movie that I have a hard time coming to grips with. Heath and Jake are FABULOUS and HOT. If either Ennis and/or Jack were not so attractive, almost homely, how would we see their relationship? I wouldn’t want it any other way, but its almost as if it would be an entirely different movie.
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Actually the Gyllenhaal looks may be a bit of a distraction here - what's important about someone you fall in love with is not their looks but their character. In both the ss and the movie it's Jack's characteristics that make Ennis fall for him.
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Actually the Gyllenhaal looks may be a bit of a distraction here - what's important about someone you fall in love with is not their looks but their character. In both the ss and the movie it's Jack's characteristics that make Ennis fall for him.
ww is exactly right.
It goes so much deeper than the looks, not all people look like Jake G. but people still are drawn to someone and fall in love. Unlike Ennis, Jack drew people to him, IMO: Jack was almost like a blank screen where these people projected what their desires on Jack. But not one of them gave Jack what he wanted. He was left wanting.
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True!
I second. Jack is more responsive than he is proactive (his dealings with Ennis in FNIT and the Reunion were the great exception). But when he responds, you know he is for real.
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Actually the Gyllenhaal looks may be a bit of a distraction here - what's important about someone you fall in love with is not their looks but their character. In both the ss and the movie it's Jack's characteristics that make Ennis fall for him.
But the emotiveness in Jake Gyllenhall did define Jack in the movie, no? At best, Jack in the SS is a shadowy persona -- with only the passage of the Dozy Embrace to plumb his very depths.
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I think the Jack of the ss is affable -- he likes people and likes to have a good time. He can let his hair down, rough-house, flirt, interact with others freely. Ennis couldn't so any of those things. Jack's personality drew people towards him. There was nothing off-putting about him. Ennis, on the other hand, showed his sober, serious, shy, rather backwards personality on the outside. This doesn't attract people. Alma probably thought he was the best she was going to do. Cassie was attracted to him physically (at the tavern, at least). I don't think anybody thought Ennis was going to be the life of the party, or a great conversationalist. It was Jack who exuded that vibrant aura that drew people in.
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Jack, in the short story, is not really as gorgeous as Jake is. I rather think they were attracted by him because he was assuming what he was (although he didn't say Lureen he was gay of course). He was true to himself. And this is something that people feel unconciously.
Great thread Manhattan Girl. :)
I agree Pierralex- Jack was true to himself. I also agree that it was his vulnerablitly- underneath the bravado there was a little boy in there- that childlike innocence that allowed him to dream big. He wasn't afraid to love and I think he gave his all to those he cared about. The SS alludes to Jack being abused as a child and the fact that he still loved, still dared, still dreamed says a lot about that inner strength he possessed in order to still be open and caring and I think people saw that.
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I second. Jack is more responsive than he is proactive (his dealings with Ennis in FNIT and the Reunion were the great exception). But when he responds, you know he is for real.
Oh what you say is so true. Jack endearing quality and his curse is his responsive nature (if there is such a thing), but this leads to constant disapointments, hurt, but unbelieveable feelings of love, giving, and release.
Would you consider the one and only proactive thing he did do, he took Ennis's shirt after the first summer, and keep it for twenty years. When Jack fell in love it was for life.
Thank LuvJackNasty
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Very good response be everyone here! When the original guestion of why people fall for Jack, I thought of the movie Jack and not the ss Jack. It definately had to be his personality and his need for love that attracted those people. I guess in the rural west, you don't have that much choices either and when someone like Jack comes along, you'd go for him.
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Very good response be everyone here! When the original guestion of why people fall for Jack, I thought of the movie Jack and not the ss Jack. It definately had to be his personality and his need for love that attracted those people. I guess in the rural west, you don't have that much choices either and when someone like Jack comes along, you'd go for him.
True. The same with me.
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Yeah, especially in 1963 where civil rights in many areas of this country were non-existent or just were'nt enforced. There was a silent code amomg communities that *certain types* were not welcome. Jack had traveled via the rodeo circuit, allowing him to meet different types of people, maybe from far away,form his normal world of small town life.
Jack had a good vibe going on , if you will . People are drawn in by his natural charm. Gives the impression that he likes being around people. It is a gift. We all know someone like this. The life of the party. :-* 8)
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Yeah, especially in 1963 where civil rights in many areas of this country were non-existent or just were'nt enforced. There was a silent code amomg communities that *certain types* were not welcome. Jack had traveled via the rodeo circuit, allowing him to meet different types of people, maybe from far away,form his normal world of small town life.
Jack had a good vibe going on , if you will . People are drawn in by his natural charm. Gives the impression that he likes being around people. It is a gift. We all know someone like this. The life of the party. :-* 8)
It did seem that his sociability helped a great deal. And he was not afraid to make his move. Even with Lureen (who really made the first significant move), Jack was not completely tongue-tied and at least knew what he wanted at critical moments, as witnessed by his response to Lureen when she was thinking of putting the breaks on. With Ennis, this was obvious (FNIT and reunion scene).
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Let us not overlook the SNIT, this one and only time that Ennis submitted to Jack. IMO: FNIT and Reunion showed us Ennis's sexual need for Jack, but Ennis needed guidance, he knew of sex, but not how to make love, he yield to Jack, he wanted Jack to show him the way. But after that took control of Jack and their relationship.
We see Jack's giving nature, but what does he get in return. Did at anytime Ennis or anyone else return all of what Jack gave to them. Jack's needs were more emotional than physical. He went to Mexico true, but why? He may have went to Randall, why? Could Jack go to Mexico, where even after paying, that person would be his for that hour, that night as if they wanted him, and only him, and in some fantasy that he could feel he was really wanted? Would Randall be the one the one to submit to Jack's needs?
Jack was caught between a rock and a hard place, in love with Ennis who could dismiss him so easily when convenient, but held on to him tight enough not to let him go too far. How can someone live this way for twenty years without the cracks at some point showing?
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It did seem that his sociability helped a great deal. And he was not afraid to make his move. Even with Lureen (who really made the first significant move), Jack was not completely tongue-tied and at least knew what he wanted at critical moments, as witnessed by his response to Lureen when she was thinking of putting the breaks on. With Ennis, this was obvious (FNIT and reunion scene).
Jack was'nt afraid to make his moves true, but only after some anxious moments on his part. With Lureen, he asked the bartender who she was and got a little bit of info before she came over with her *mating call* .
With Ennis there were periods of time where he staked out his situation before diving in. Sort of felt Ennis out before FNIT. Once he made up his mind that Ennis was'nt gonna put his lights out, he made his moves on him.
Ennis gave him clues as to what he was feeling at different times including the ultimate *opportunity* remark, which Jack obviously took as an invitation to give him one.
With Randall it was a different story. This had the potential to go very wrong.Their wives were literally right under their noses so Jack could'nt just ask anything about him straight out, but LaShawn provided a little insight into what Randall was about. I think he realized Randall's intentions by the eye contact he was giving and Jack picked up on it right away and gave it right back. As they waited on the bench, Randall took the opportunity to feel Jack out. Not the other way around. I liked the approach. Gentle and indirect, just in case he'd gotten the wrong idea about Jack, then he could withdraw his proposition in case Jack put his lights out. Smart.
In all 3 cases Jack himself was drawn into their worlds at different stages of his life. Again, he got something he needed from each of them. Each one served a purpose for him at different times in his life but Ennis was his true love. Jack's approaches ( except with Randall) showed his lingering fear of rejection imo. With Randall he only had to answer yes or no. Randall was taking the chance of rejection this time, not him.
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Let us not overlook the SNIT, this one and only time that Ennis submitted to Jack. IMO: FNIT and Reunion showed us Ennis's sexual need for Jack, but Ennis needed guidance, he knew of sex, but not how to make love, he yield to Jack, he wanted Jack to show him the way. But after that took control of Jack and their relationship.
We see Jack's giving nature, but what does he get in return. Did at anytime Ennis or anyone else return all of what Jack gave to them. Jack's needs were more emotional than physical. He went to Mexico true, but why? He may have went to Randall, why? Could Jack go to Mexico, where even after paying, that person would be his for that hour, that night as if they wanted him, and only him, and in some fantasy that he could feel he was really wanted? Would Randall be the one the one to submit to Jack's needs?
Jack was caught between a rock and a hard place, in love with Ennis who could dismiss him so easily when convenient, but held on to him tight enough not to let him go too far. How can someone live this way for twenty years without the cracks at some point showing?
MG I have to respecfully disagree with you on a couple points here. Ennis had his reasons. We may not always agree with how he treated Jack, but to Ennis it was a legitimate case of trying to maintain a love affair that he had no idea how to understand. We know what it was, this thing. but does Ennis really have to define it? I have a problem with the comment "Ennis took control of Jack" Jack made decisions based on the love he had for Ennis. It was him making choices in response to what he thought Ennis was implying. He assumed alot . Ennis loved Jack too. He sacrificed many things including his family to be with him.
Somtimes Jack was right in his assumptions, sometimes he was wrong, but I never heard Ennis tell Jack "you better" do anything. He did not force this with threats of any kind. ( except about the Mexico business), but Ennis did'nt want to share what was his with hustlers, that's understandable) Jack did what he felt he had to do. Maybe he did'nt get all he wanted in the end, but perhaps as Earl and Ray must have thought, he would'nt trade those years with Ennis for anything.
Sometimes I feel Ennis gets the short end of the stick( and I will admit, I,ve been guilty of this too) at times because he would'nt totally commit to Jack by agree to co-ranching with him. We must remember that although Ennis was essential to Jack's happiness, he also felt he had to protect him. In his mind this was the best way to do it. Again we may not agree with it, but Jack is a grown man in his own right. He was a man,not Ennis's wife who required someone to give him a life of protected sweetness and roses. Ennis had genuine fears that he brought to the table. Baggage from a f-cked up childhood of fear and shame. Parents left him 24 dollors in a coffe can. This kind of upbring may have made him a hard stubborn man, but I believe once he fell in love with Jack, he saw the errors of his father's ways, yet he was still fearful of what would happen if the wrong people found out. The damage was so profound that he just could'nt deal with it, but he never took anything from Jack that Jack did'nt give freely.
Another thing about it too is he knew Alma knew at the after-Thanksgiving debaucle . Judging by Alma's disposition, She hated Jack and felt he would find happiness at her expense. And he knew she was angry and resentful about the way things went down. I suppose in the back of Ennis's mind, she could let the cat out of the bag at any time, which could also possibly contribute to his fear. She had moved on and had nothing more to loose if she chose to tell, but I'm not saying this would really happen even , but when you look at it through Ennis's paranoia the focus becomes more clear.
I believe in my heart that in this film Ennis truly loved Jack, but when your never shown love growing up, how do you know what it is when you grow up. I don't think anyone really knows when it happens or try to put a definition to it. It's just something that when you know, you know. It's a feeling you live and are guided by.
Respectfully, your friend, A. Foolin.
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Ainfoolin' great post,
My problem is the word "implying" Jack read the implications of Ennis's words, and his actions. Assuming one thing then finding it was something else. Ennis shuffling his feet, his mumblings, Jack's frustrations.
The end of the first summer, Ennis stating to Jack, he's going to marry Alma, not saying a word about what they had, "see you around" slings his bag over his shoulder and walks away, and this after a summer of incredible love, and being bounded physically and emotionally that something neither man experience before, with Ennis acting as if was just a summer thing. I know about Ennis reaction after Jack drives off, but Jack has no idea.
The reunion, Ennis's reaction when he saw Jack again, but stating to Jack while in bed, after Jack asks him, "what do we do now" Ennis "There nothing we can do, I'm stuck with what I got here", The divorce, Jack going to him, Ennis telling him how sorry he was for the misunderstanding, after Ennis writes Jack about it. Implications big time, painful as it was.
We can excuse Ennis, he had his reasons, but Jack has his reasons too, for loving this man, and going back year after year, because he believed in this power of love. Even though Ennis had his doubts about, fears about it, denial about it.
You take exception to the word control, that Jack was implying a lot which contributed to choices he made, why not, after the reunion we all know Ennis was never going to let Jack go, but he wasn't going to live with him either. He knew that, we knew that, but Jack with hope upon hope couldn't see that this was never was going to happen until the final confrontation.
And Jack said those words that finally shot Ennis in his heart, "I wish I knew how to quit you", thats when Ennis realized that this was real possibility, and broke down in Jack's arm. Jack see the depth of Ennis's pain for the first time, he had no idea before then. When Ennis drove off and Jack look at his truck driving away, IMO, he might have been thinking of letting go, it cost Ennis a lot, and him too.
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Ainfoolin' great post,
My problem is the word "implying" Jack read the implications of Ennis's words, and his actions. Assuming one thing then finding it was something else. Ennis shuffling his feet, his mumblings, Jack's frustrations.
The end of the first summer, Ennis stating to Jack, he's going to marry Alma, not saying a word about what they had, "see you around" slings his bag over his shoulder and walks away, and this after a summer of incredible love, and being bounded physically and emotionally that something neither man experience before, with Ennis acting as if was just a summer thing. I know about Ennis reaction after Jack drives off, but Jack has no idea.
The reunion, Ennis's reaction when he saw Jack again, but stating to Jack while in bed, after Jack asks him, "what do we do now" Ennis "There nothing we can do, I'm stuck with what I got here", The divorce, Jack going to him, Ennis telling him how sorry he was for the misunderstanding, after Ennis writes Jack about it. Implications big time, painful as it was.
We can excuse Ennis, he had his reasons, but Jack has his reasons too, for loving this man, and going back year after year, because he believed in this power of love. Even though Ennis had his doubts about, fears about it, denial about it.
You take exception to the word control, that Jack was implying a lot which contributed to choices he made, why not, after the reunion we all know Ennis was never going to let Jack go, but he wasn't going to live with him either. He knew that, we knew that, but Jack with hope upon hope couldn't see that this was never was going to happen until the final confrontation.
And Jack said those words that finally shot Ennis in his heart, "I wish I knew how to quit you", thats when Ennis realized that this was real possibility, and broke down in Jack's arm. Jack see the depth of Ennis's pain for the first time, he had no idea before then. When Ennis drove off and Jack look at his truck driving away, IMO, he might have been thinking of letting go, it cost Ennis a lot, and him too.
Ennis only implied certain things though. He never implied a willingness to live with Jack. Jack just assumed that Ennis would eventually give in.
His " aint no reins on this one" confession is as close as Ennis got to verbally saying " Jack, I love you" ,but he never agreed to live with him. In fact he explained that they could only meet out in the middle of nowhere, still after that intense reunion scene!
Jack is a hopeless romantic . He lived on the hope factor, the wish factor. He hoped and wished for Ennis to agree with him with all his heart. and I hoped and wished right along with him, the first time I watched the film. but Ennis just did'nt know how to shake his fear and shame once they left BBM.
Ennis iplied many things. He imlpied he had feelings on BB, expressing his feelings for Jack only through actions, never words, but in any case Jack "got it" , Implied he missed and wanted Jack after 4 years by his actions and behavior. Jack took all Ennis's *implictions for what they showed him and he was correct to believe what Ennis was putting out there, but never did Ennis promise Jack a future life together as partners ranching up together.
He said it in the motel bed when he said he was stuck with Alma and again, the next night when Jack actually proposed the idea.
As for the divorce scene Ennis sent a postcard stating his situation. As far as I know he never said." Ok Jack you can come up now and we'll live happily ever after. Did'nt call Jack on the phone crying and begging Jack to drive hours from Texas to comfort him. (though I believe Jack would have came if he had), but Jack ASSUMED that Ennis was going to agree to them being together then. It is a heart-breaking scene to watch. He thought it was Ennis marriage to Alma that stood in their way. His assumption was wrong. It was Ennis himself. This is the time when even I wanted to slap Ennis upside his head, but I was limited to yelling at him through the TV screen. ??? >:(
Jack allows Ennis to get away with this by not utilizing the aces up his own sleeve. He had em, cuz Ennis could'nt live without him. This is what frustrated me the most about Jack. He never challenged Ennis . Not till he;d almost givin up and was looking to just quit Ennis . Comon Jack, don't appear to be a door-mat! explain it to em! He had it in him to do so cuz we saw saw him do it with his father-in-law right? He must make ennis see that he was worthy of better treatment, that he was not going to be played like a grand piano! The situation or set of circumstances begged for it. Why not confront Ennis then and there? Why let him off the hook like this.?
1. Ennis's girls were there.- solution---Should'nt have left town till he talked with Ennis.
2. He had his own fear of spooking Ennis away forever.- solution.--- Ennis kept the upper hand cuz Jack never called his bluff. Ennis was playing his cards, Jack should have played his. Give Ennis something to think about.
3. If Ennis bolts? He's only off analyzing and what-iffing himself to death. This is Ennis. He always comes back to Jack's sweet love. It's an established pattern with him after some unexpected traumatizing event like this.
4. The reunion scene? --I thought he'd never let Jack go again. This was Jack's lasting clue. Ennis had been there done that . "Aint no reins on this one. " Jack shoulda put it to the test. Ennis loved him deeper than even he himself realized. ....These are only suggestions and possible options I see for Jack , just alternatives to what was the status quo. Nothing's guaranteed.!
To sum it all up Jack was responsible for his own happiness. He had Ennis and loved him, but to me he just was'nt aggessive enough in matters of his own heart. I 've often said jokingly that Jack bitched his way into Ennis's heart! LOL ...but it worked. Lasting relationships don't thrive if there is a lack of honest communication and fear, This way both parties feel equal in this thing. My opinions.
Again, maybe we don't agree with what Ennis did or how he did it, but his is who Jack loved faults , and false implications and all. As in the last confrontation ,afterwards Ennis still needed to meet with Jack just like Jack said " I'll see ya next month"
They loved each other and this showed , even these trying tests of their love .
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Aintfoolin,
You're not the only one yelling at the screen, LOL.
You state that Jack always had it in him, sure, later as he got older. When finally spoke up to LD, check it out again, he found it hard to do, Gees, I thought he would pass out after he told LD off, but he didn't, LD back down, Jack stood up and cut the turkey, it was his home, his family, and they were guests in his home, what a charge that must have been for him.
Jack's very nature began to change, what triggered, what made him decide to stand-up for himself? Age, deep realization that he was tire of living a life of quiet desperation? I always looked at that Thanksgiving scene as Jack's independence day, because after that the confrontation, Jack found his voice. Ennis wanted to change the date, Jack was having none of it. But after how many years did Jack give in to Ennis's will?
Jack may have been a slow learner, aces in the hole was something that never occur to him. He trusted Ennis, and was guided by him, loved him deeply. No matter Ennis's motives, Jack's perception was different.
Perception is everything, If both men understood each other really the confrontation would have never happened, but it did. That's why "What about Jack?"
OT: We may never see eye on this, heck that's the way it suppose to be. It's like with Ennis and Jack, We love on this site, maybe with differings views of the love, but love nonetheless. IMHO
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Great exchange Aintfoolin' and MG :)
IMO it took Jack a long time to really voice his frustration at Ennis because of that fear of losing Ennis. I think that fear was intensified (maybe not the right word) because he truly loved Ennis. Ennis was the only man in his life that was able to see and appreciate the real Jack. LD looked at him like he was a piece of crap, his father wasn't exactly the most nurturing man (to put it mildly). In some ways I see Jack as that little boy who looked out his window dreaming on all that is out there for him and he is still that little boy looking out of a different window as an adult still dreaming on all that could be.
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Very good topic :) I haven't read all, but I think that even tho Jake G. is handsome, he also brings to it a sense of fun that I feel Jack has.
I wouldn't automatically be attracted to someone I didn't think was handsome. If someone was, IMO, less handsome it would take longer for me to see the inside ( yes I know thats shallow but thats the way it is)
So I think that Laureen did that, she saw someone that was the most handsome she had seen, and that was MOSTLY why she fell for him. He also won the bullriding in the competition she won the barrel roll (?) and she fell for a fellow winner, who was handsome. Their relationship deteriorated because that was it.
Ennis on the other hand DIDN't fall for him cause he was handsome, but because they made a connection. Jack made him feel well, he even opened up to him.
I think Randall was a mix of the two. He fell for the handsome and kept falling for the inside...
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For me, the thing is that Jack need Ennis, Lureen and Randall.
Ennis because he loved him.
Lureen for the social masque, until the day Ennis would have at least be ready to live with him.
Randall as a substitute for Ennis.
Jack, in the short story, is not really as gorgeous as Jake is. I rather think they were attracted by him because he was assuming what he was (although he didn't say Lureen he was gay of course). He was true to himself. And this is something that people feel unconciously.
All this made them stay with Jack, contrarly to Ennis, who was fighting against himself and who ended up alone. For Ennis, the only persons who were still in touch with him are his daughters. But for them, being gay or straight wasn't the problem for Ennis, he was just her father. And being a father doesn't require to sleep with girls, so for this part he was true to himself.
I hope you understand what I try to explain.
I totally agree with you
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Let us not overlook the SNIT, this one and only time that Ennis submitted to Jack. IMO: FNIT and Reunion showed us Ennis's sexual need for Jack, but Ennis needed guidance, he knew of sex, but not how to make love, he yield to Jack, he wanted Jack to show him the way. But after that took control of Jack and their relationship.
We see Jack's giving nature, but what does he get in return. Did at anytime Ennis or anyone else return all of what Jack gave to them. Jack's needs were more emotional than physical. He went to Mexico true, but why? He may have went to Randall, why? Could Jack go to Mexico, where even after paying, that person would be his for that hour, that night as if they wanted him, and only him, and in some fantasy that he could feel he was really wanted? Would Randall be the one the one to submit to Jack's needs?
Jack was caught between a rock and a hard place, in love with Ennis who could dismiss him so easily when convenient, but held on to him tight enough not to let him go too far. How can someone live this way for twenty years without the cracks at some point showing?
I do agree that Jack's needs were more emotional. If they were physical, he would have been content going to Mexico when he was not meeting up with Ennis.
When he said "You have no idea how bad it gets" -- he specifically had Ennis in mind. True, he needed the physical gratification more than once or twice a year, but his main point was to be with Ennis -- much more than once or twice a year.
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Jack was'nt afraid to make his moves true, but only after some anxious moments on his part. With Lureen, he asked the bartender who she was and got a little bit of info before she came over with her *mating call* .
With Ennis there were periods of time where he staked out his situation before diving in. Sort of felt Ennis out before FNIT. Once he made up his mind that Ennis was'nt gonna put his lights out, he made his moves on him.
Ennis gave him clues as to what he was feeling at different times including the ultimate *opportunity* remark, which Jack obviously took as an invitation to give him one.
With Randall it was a different story. This had the potential to go very wrong.Their wives were literally right under their noses so Jack could'nt just ask anything about him straight out, but LaShawn provided a little insight into what Randall was about. I think he realized Randall's intentions by the eye contact he was giving and Jack picked up on it right away and gave it right back. As they waited on the bench, Randall took the opportunity to feel Jack out. Not the other way around. I liked the approach. Gentle and indirect, just in case he'd gotten the wrong idea about Jack, then he could withdraw his proposition in case Jack put his lights out. Smart.
In all 3 cases Jack himself was drawn into their worlds at different stages of his life. Again, he got something he needed from each of them. Each one served a purpose for him at different times in his life but Ennis was his true love. Jack's approaches ( except with Randall) showed his lingering fear of rejection imo. With Randall he only had to answer yes or no. Randall was taking the chance of rejection this time, not him.
I got the imprssion that Lureen, Randall and eveyone else Jack hooked up with outside his relationship with Ennis were all surrogates to that one need that dominated his life. Even his fear of rejection was perhaps tied to his being at the mercy of Ennis. Ennis had rejected him one time -- when Jack was hoping to see him again after their time on BBM in 63. It took him 4 years of quiet desperation to ask for another meeting (in the reunion).
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Very good topic :) I haven't read all, but I think that even tho Jake G. is handsome, he also brings to it a sense of fun that I feel Jack has.
I wouldn't automatically be attracted to someone I didn't think was handsome. If someone was, IMO, less handsome it would take longer for me to see the inside ( yes I know thats shallow but thats the way it is)
So I think that Laureen did that, she saw someone that was the most handsome she had seen, and that was MOSTLY why she fell for him. He also won the bullriding in the competition she won the barrel roll (?) and she fell for a fellow winner, who was handsome. Their relationship deteriorated because that was it.
Ennis on the other hand DIDN't fall for him cause he was handsome, but because they made a connection. Jack made him feel well, he even opened up to him.
I think Randall was a mix of the two. He fell for the handsome and kept falling for the inside...
Very insightful point, Esmelily, especially the one about Lureen. It did seem that she was drawn to appearances, and the fact that she could dominate Jack, to some extent.
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Jack just had that charisma that some people have that brings people to them. And, he has the habit of being standoffish when somemone new approaches him until he is ready to open up to them. For example, he doesn't approach Lureen -- he waits for her to come to him. I'm sure she was the one who wanted to dance, and I'm sure she's the one who started things in the car. When Randall began to make passes at Jack, he sat on the bench stoically listening to Randall, but never responding -- until he was ready. He didn't give Randall any positive indicators that he was interested in him and listening to his ideas about their going fishing together, etc. IN my opinion, Jack had to feel comfortable before he let down his guard, but once he did, he gave it his all. He took Lureen up on her matin' call- maybe because he was lonelyl; maybe beause she was the daughter of a rich man and he was ready for some of the good life for a change --, and he pursued Ennis with strength and purpose until he got what he wanted from him. Yes, I think Jack was a bit of a user, but not in a bad way. He just saw what he wanted after a long, slow look, and then went after it. Because of his personal charisma, he usually got what he wanted.
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Interesting point of view lamusica
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Jack just had that charisma that some people have that brings people to them. And, he has the habit of being standoffish when someone new approaches him until he is ready to open up to them. For example, he doesn't approach Lureen -- he waits for her to come to him. I'm sure she was the one who wanted to dance, and I'm sure she's the one who started things in the car. When Randall began to make passes at Jack, he sat on the bench stoically listening to Randall, but never responding -- until he was ready. He didn't give Randall any positive indicators that he was interested in him and listening to his ideas about their going fishing together, etc. IN my opinion, Jack had to feel comfortable before he let down his guard, but once he did, he gave it his all. He took Lureen up on her matin' call- maybe because he was lonelyl; maybe beause she was the daughter of a rich man and he was ready for some of the good life for a change --, and he pursued Ennis with strength and purpose until he got what he wanted from him. Yes, I think Jack was a bit of a user, but not in a bad way. He just saw what he wanted after a long, slow look, and then went after it. Because of his personal charisma, he usually got what he wanted.
But at some point, Jack always giving more then he received. He tried to be the husband and father, but his position was challenged by LD. He tried give Ennis the life he thought they both should have. And for Randall, I bet he tried to be the lover, that Randall wanted.
But some way along the line they all fell short of his expectations. Jack was a good person, only looking for love he wanted more than the material things in life.
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Jack just had that charisma that some people have that brings people to them. And, he has the habit of being standoffish when somemone new approaches him until he is ready to open up to them. For example, he doesn't approach Lureen -- he waits for her to come to him. I'm sure she was the one who wanted to dance, and I'm sure she's the one who started things in the car. When Randall began to make passes at Jack, he sat on the bench stoically listening to Randall, but never responding -- until he was ready. He didn't give Randall any positive indicators that he was interested in him and listening to his ideas about their going fishing together, etc. IN my opinion, Jack had to feel comfortable before he let down his guard, but once he did, he gave it his all. He took Lureen up on her matin' call- maybe because he was lonelyl; maybe beause she was the daughter of a rich man and he was ready for some of the good life for a change --, and he pursued Ennis with strength and purpose until he got what he wanted from him. Yes, I think Jack was a bit of a user, but not in a bad way. He just saw what he wanted after a long, slow look, and then went after it. Because of his personal charisma, he usually got what he wanted.
It is intersting nonetheless that none of the relationships he put himself into brought him what he truly wanted -- Ennis, Lureen, and Randall. In a real sense, he is like a child seeking happiness, risking everything -- heedless of the cost. The best way to describe him is through Whitman's poem:
A NOISELESS, patient spider,
I mark’d, where, on a little promontory, it stood, isolated;
Mark’d how, to explore the vacant, vast surrounding,
It launch’d forth filament, filament, filament, out of itself;
Ever unreeling them—ever tirelessly speeding them.
And you, O my Soul, where you stand,
Surrounded, detached, in measureless oceans of space,
Ceaselessly musing, venturing, throwing,—seeking the spheres, to connect them;
Till the bridge you will need, be form’d—till the ductile anchor hold;
Till the gossamer thread you fling, catch somewhere, O my Soul.
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But at some point, Jack always giving more then he received. He tried to be the husband and father, but his position was challenged by LD. He tried give Ennis the life he thought they both should have. And for Randall, I bet he tried to be the lover, that Randall wanted.
But some way along the line they all fell short of his expectations. Jack was a good person, only looking for love he wanted more than the material things in life.
You had anticipated my last post, manhattangirl. Jack didn't seem to count the cost, always giving more than he received -- if only to find that one thing he sought for all his life: building a life with someone for love.
The user is a myriad times the giver.
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I think that Ennis fell for Jack because he needed to be loved;his life was full with bad souvenirs and ,after loosing his parents,he had became alone for the marriages of his brother and sister.He was in any sense a uprooted boy,the same as Jack.This gave him warmth,self-confidence, friendship and affection in a first stage,and for this reason they became after all a good friends and companions;I don´t forget the sexual attraction, that exists,but this happenned "besides".I think also that when Ennis rocks Jack in the DE scene is sharing with him one of the few moments in his childhood when he felt loved and wants to give his lover this same sensation in return
In the case of Lureen,she felt an inmediate attraction for him and,a fanciful rich girl as she was, used to get everythin she wanted,of course she went for him.Maybe she fell in love for him,but I don´t really think that in the end of Jack´s life, she was.
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And regarding to Randall,I´ve always thought in the possibility that he was a kind of trap against Jack;perhaps most people that he could thought knew about his sexuality and this was a way to make him coming out...
And above all these particularities,there is the certainty that he was handsome,nice and warm,and really had some hidden quality that attracts people,beyond his external appearance.I´d rather ask:What was it about Ennis?What to be loved for so many years by Jack,Alma-because I feel she´s still in love with him when she told him she knew who was Jack Nasty-and by Cassie-who felt much beyond of a first attraction-?.Only a sexual desire doesn´t work in such different persons during so many years.
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Oh, God, tpe, you just quoted one of my very favorite poems. I had just never thought of it in connection with Ennis and Jack, but it is very appropos when applied to Jack's tentative moves on people. You're right. Jack is always searching for what he is missing most in his life -- true, lasting love that can be lived publicly and proudly.
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I think that Ennis fell for Jack because he needed to be loved;his life was full with bad souvenirs and ,after loosing his parents,he had became alone for the marriages of his brother and sister.He was in any sense a uprooted boy,the same as Jack.This gave him warmth,self-confidence, friendship and affection in a first stage,and for this reason they became after all a good friends and companions;I don´t forget the sexual attraction, that exists,but this happenned "besides".I think also that when Ennis rocks Jack in the DE scene is sharing with him one of the few moments in his childhood when he felt loved and wants to give his lover this same sensation in return
In the case of Lureen,she felt an inmediate attraction for him and,a fanciful rich girl as she was, used to get everythin she wanted,of course she went for him.Maybe she fell in love for him,but I don´t really think that in the end of Jack´s life, she was.
Somehow, this rings so true. And how many times have I seen this in real life? Thanks myprivatejack.
Jack too of course, needed to be loved, no? I guess he at least had his mother, but it was more than counterbalanced by the father. Perhaps he took this from the mother.
And he was also seemingly protective of Ennis -- even to the point of lying in order to hide things from him. I guess Ennis liked Jack for not rocking the boat too much.
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Oh, God, tpe, you just quoted one of my very favorite poems. I had just never thought of it in connection with Ennis and Jack, but it is very appropos when applied to Jack's tentative moves on people. You're right. Jack is always searching for what he is missing most in his life -- true, lasting love that can be lived publicly and proudly.
lamusica, I love that poem very much, you know? I am thrilled that you love it too! Somehow, I envisioned Ennis as the anchor on which Jack finally catches hold of himself, like the spider in the poem...
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While Jack is always willing to give it a try, he just can't get everything he wants out of Ennis. This is what I find so sad. Neither Jack nor Ennis had the resources within themselves to believe they deserved better than what they got out of life. If only Jack could have totally enwrapped Ennis in his silk thread, how different the ending would have been for both men.
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Yes, but I wonder how Jack would have could totally enwrapped Ennis,if he often was like a brick wall...He gave him everything he could need,from sex to comprehension,and even forced him to be more talkative,more willing to share his inner self than with nobody else before.Isn´t this a way to bring someone to oneself?.Of course,society rules was stronger than all this, and for this reason I´d like to ask you in which ways must Jack have done this.
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By the way,hasn´t anybody thought that Randall couldn´t feel attracted to Jack?He perfectly could have trapped him ,as I have said formerly,to know exactly if he was gay or not and act after against him.
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While Jack is always willing to give it a try, he just can't get everything he wants out of Ennis. This is what I find so sad. Neither Jack nor Ennis had the resources within themselves to believe they deserved better than what they got out of life. If only Jack could have totally enwrapped Ennis in his silk thread, how different the ending would have been for both men.
What you say here moves me very much. Both of them deserved better. Perhaps Jack glimpsed this a bit more than Ennis, but he did not have the resolve to push for it. It is so sad. But to Jack's credit, he did keep trying. Perversely, perhaps this is part of why Ennis loved him so.
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Yes, but I wonder how Jack would have could totally enwrapped Ennis,if he often was like a brick wall...He gave him everything he could need,from sex to comprehension,and even forced him to be more talkative,more willing to share his inner self than with nobody else before.Isn´t this a way to bring someone to oneself?.Of course,society rules was stronger than all this, and for this reason I´d like to ask you in which ways must Jack have done this.
Well, I also think it was part of Jack's nature to leave some room for Ennis to breathe. Never did he try to "suffocate" Ennis. He even waited quietly for so many years -- patiently, to see if Ennis would -- by his own accord -- have a change of heart. It was in Jack's nature, I think, to love Ennis for who he was, and not for something he wanted him to be.
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I agree with you,tpe, in that one of the Jack's qualities was not to suffocate Ennis,always letting him be himself,never forcing him to addapt a decision he was not ready to...You has said a great phrase:Jack loved Ennis for who he was,and not for something he wanted him to be.Great.Is not this what love means?.I imagine how much he must suffer,loving him, looking for him,waiting for him during 20 years, not asking for anything more than being loved.Until"all what they hadn' t say for years" broke in their last reunion...My question is:did Ennis deserve all this?.
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Yes, but I wonder how Jack would have could totally enwrapped Ennis,if he often was like a brick wall...He gave him everything he could need,from sex to comprehension,and even forced him to be more talkative,more willing to share his inner self than with nobody else before.Isn´t this a way to bring someone to oneself?.Of course,society rules was stronger than all this, and for this reason I´d like to ask you in which ways must Jack have done this.
To me, that's the sad part,mpj. There was nothing Jack wasn't willing to do, but nothing worked with Ennis. Ennis, too, gave all he could. He really was not able to respond to Jack fully, openly. The threads Jack threw out never could catch him unreservedly. Ennis was always concerned about being caught, being censured by society, getting harrassed or, worse yet, getting killed because he and Jack loved one another.
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Well, I also think it was part of Jack's nature to leave some room for Ennis to breathe. Never did he try to "suffocate" Ennis. He even waited quietly for so many years -- patiently, to see if Ennis would -- by his own accord -- have a change of heart. It was in Jack's nature, I think, to love Ennis for who he was, and not for something he wanted him to be.
I agree with you, tpe. When Ennis and Jack are talking in the motel room, Jack goes fishing, in a sense. He asks, in a roundabout way, if Ennis ever thought of him during those four years. I think he definitely was hinting that Ennis could have found him if he had tried. Ennis's response was that he didn't know where Jack was, and that he thought he might still be mad about the punch on the mountain. Jack wanted Ennis to want him enough to go looking for him. After waiting four years, he finally figured out that Ennis wasn't coming looking for him, so he went to Ennis. He certainly gave Ennis room here. Then, Jack sends a card -- thus giving Ennis another chance to ignore him, or to respond negatively about wanting to meet up with him. Of course, thanks be to God, Ennis jumps on this with his "You bet!" The game in ON!
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I agree with you, tpe. When Ennis and Jack are talking in the motel room, Jack goes fishing, in a sense. He asks, in a roundabout way, if Ennis ever thought of him during those four years. I think he definitely was hinting that Ennis could have found him if he had tried. Ennis's response was that he didn't know where Jack was, and that he thought he might still be mad about the punch on the mountain. Jack wanted Ennis to want him enough to go looking for him. After waiting four years, he finally figured out that Ennis wasn't coming looking for him, so he went to Ennis. He certainly gave Ennis room here. Then, Jack sends a card -- thus giving Ennis another chance to ignore him, or to respond negatively about wanting to meet up with him. Of course, thanks be to God, Ennis jumps on this with his "You bet!" The game in ON!
Great point, lamusica. This was at the back of my mind, although I wasn't partuicularly conscious about it. But the way you say it here makes perfect sense. Thanks!
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I agree with you, tpe. When Ennis and Jack are talking in the motel room, Jack goes fishing, in a sense. He asks, in a roundabout way, if Ennis ever thought of him during those four years. I think he definitely was hinting that Ennis could have found him if he had tried. Ennis's response was that he didn't know where Jack was, and that he thought he might still be mad about the punch on the mountain. Jack wanted Ennis to want him enough to go looking for him. After waiting four years, he finally figured out that Ennis wasn't coming looking for him, so he went to Ennis. He certainly gave Ennis room here. Then, Jack sends a card -- thus giving Ennis another chance to ignore him, or to respond negatively about wanting to meet up with him. Of course, thanks be to God, Ennis jumps on this with his "You bet!" The game in ON!
Great post! I had never thought of it as Jack hinting that Ennis could have looked for him. All of these months later and still something new to be discovered!
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I agree with you, tpe. When Ennis and Jack are talking in the motel room, Jack goes fishing, in a sense. He asks, in a roundabout way, if Ennis ever thought of him during those four years. I think he definitely was hinting that Ennis could have found him if he had tried. Ennis's response was that he didn't know where Jack was, and that he thought he might still be mad about the punch on the mountain. Jack wanted Ennis to want him enough to go looking for him. After waiting four years, he finally figured out that Ennis wasn't coming looking for him, so he went to Ennis. He certainly gave Ennis room here. Then, Jack sends a card -- thus giving Ennis another chance to ignore him, or to respond negatively about wanting to meet up with him. Of course, thanks be to God, Ennis jumps on this with his "You bet!" The game in ON!
This is thought provoking. Givin Ennis's state of mind during those 4 years before the reunion, no doubt he thought often about Jack, but perhaps he thought Jack would reject him. He had made his bed and was lying in it by marrying Alma and rejecting Jack. Thought Jack was mad at him. Of course Jack did give him a clue that he was going to his parent's house for the winter. Ennis thought "Nah" he don't want to see me again after what I've done." "He's probably moved on. " The army did'nt get em after all , but this is another reason Ennis just did'nt try to contact Jack. Thought perhaps Jack was in Viet Nam somewhere. Maybe even thought him killed there. When he recieved the post card from Jack he was shocked but delighted. , "You Bet" was his response. In other words * You bet your sweet ass I wanna see you again" It was on indeed. <^( :c)
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In the FNIT Jack took the lead. He took Ennis hand and guided it to his ready-for-action tool. What attracted Ennis to him was his similar experiences and his complimentary differences. It is true he submitted to Ennis but this is because he wanted to. Remember that the seeds of their love had already been sown at the bar when they had their beer together and this was the first manisfestation of what was to endure for years to come. He also took the lead with Lureen. he picked her hat up after it had fallen off so she would have to come get it and at least speak to him. He played coy with her probably out of fear of another rejection similiar to the one by the the rodeo clown. That of course was the furthest thing from her mind as we all saw! As far as Randall, he found a kindred spirit that was a tall, good looking drink of water that would meet his needs in the outback of Texas. Physically he was a knockout and spiritually he had an incredibly beautiful soul. Look into those eyes, the windows to his soul.
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This question has always been in the back of my mind:
Lureen, La Shawn, Randall, Ennis, and the boys in Mexico, there are many question Ennis's sexuality, but Jack to me seem more flexible sexually than Ennis.
My take on Jack is that with right set of circumstances with the right person Jack would have found a life with someone of either sex who would take the time, care, and the love Jack seem so desperately to need, Jack would have stayed put.
After all, if Lureen was able to see the man she married, and I mean really see him, and loved him, that postcard to Ennis would have never been sent, that summer in '63 would have been a sweet memory.
IMO.
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I had wondered too if jack would have re-established contact with Ennis had Lureen and her parents treated him better.
I had sometimes thought that perhaps Jack would have re-established contact sooner or later. But I suspect that the true determining factor here was if he would have been able to find another man who could statisfy him the way Ennis did. I somehow think that even if happily married to Lureen, jack would not have been able to resist the urge to establsih intimate connections with other men. It was part of his nature that needed to be addressed. If someone he cared about would have agreed to share a life with him, I wonder if Jack would not have gone the same way ayway -- divorcing Lureen in favor of a lifestyle he preferred?
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I have to agree with you, it was in Jack's nature. It was who he was. Not just for sex but the need of the iintimacy of another man was what he needed and was part of him. Am I wrong?
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Too many imponderable and variables, I think, but if Jack had found instead of Lureen a women whose character matched his in some ways and who wasn't particularly interested in hetero sex, maybe, but more probably if she'd been tolerable, even maybe acceptable, as a friend and companion and he hadn't met the one man. Other than Ennis he never did - maybe he didn't look all that hard because it was too dangerous. If we're assuming that neither Lureen nor any other woman he might have married would be the one, then he might have stuck with whoever because it was safer and easier, in which case a part of the essential Jack would always have had to be suppressed and ignored.
All this is preducated on the romantic belief that there is only ever one who is THE one - in the ss and movie it seems as though that's true for J and E.
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I have to agree with you, it was in Jack's nature. It was who he was. Not just for sex but the need of the iintimacy of another man was what he needed and was part of him. Am I wrong?
I think you are spot-on here. Companionship. Intimacy.
What was it about Jack: he will and need to be loved.
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Too many imponderable and variables, I think, but if Jack had found instead of Lureen a women whose character matched his in some ways and who wasn't particularly interested in hetero sex, maybe, but more probably if she'd been tolerable, even maybe acceptable, as a friend and companion and he hadn't met the one man. Other than Ennis he never did - maybe he didn't look all that hard because it was too dangerous. If we're assuming that neither Lureen nor any other woman he might have married would be the one, then he might have stuck with whoever because it was safer and easier, in which case a part of the essential Jack would always have had to be suppressed and ignored.
All this is preducated on the romantic belief that there is only ever one who is THE one - in the ss and movie it seems as though that's true for J and E.
Well, in a certain sense, Lureen herself was a good match, no? If we forget the in-laws for a moment, Lureen's lack of interest in the marriage allowed Jack to do what he pleased.
The above might be a tad too cynical, perhaps. But I think there was something in Jack that made it easy for him to be "agreeable", even when all true deep affection had been lost long ago...