Topic: What was it about Jack?

[fairy]

For me, the thing is that Jack need Ennis, Lureen and Randall.
Ennis because he loved him.
Lureen for the social masque, until the day Ennis would have at least be ready to live with him.
Randall as a substitute for Ennis.

Jack, in the short story, is not really as gorgeous as Jake is. I rather think they were attracted by him because he was assuming what he was (although he didn't say Lureen he was gay of course). He was true to himself. And this is something that people feel unconciously.


All this made them stay with Jack, contrarly to Ennis, who was fighting against himself and who ended up alone. For Ennis, the only persons who were still in touch with him are his daughters. But for them, being gay or straight wasn't the problem for Ennis, he was just her father. And being a father doesn't require to sleep with girls, so for this part he was true to himself.

I hope you understand what I try to explain.

I totally agree with you

[tpe]

Let us not overlook the SNIT, this one and only time that Ennis submitted to Jack.   IMO:   FNIT and Reunion showed us Ennis's sexual need for Jack, but Ennis needed guidance, he knew of sex, but not how to make love, he yield to Jack, he wanted Jack to show him the way.   But after that took control of Jack and their relationship.

We see Jack's giving nature, but what does he get in return.  Did at anytime Ennis or anyone else return all of what Jack gave to them.   Jack's needs were more emotional than physical.   He went to Mexico true,  but why?   He may have went to Randall, why?   Could Jack go to Mexico, where even after paying, that person would be his for that hour, that night as if they wanted him, and only him, and in some fantasy that he could feel he was really wanted?   Would Randall be the one the one to submit to Jack's needs?     

Jack was caught between a rock and a hard place, in love with Ennis who could dismiss him so easily when convenient, but held on to him tight enough not to let him go too far.  How can someone live this way for twenty years without the cracks at some point showing?

I do agree that Jack's needs were more emotional.  If they were physical, he would have been content going to Mexico when he was not meeting up with Ennis.

When he said "You have no idea how bad it gets" -- he specifically had Ennis in mind.  True, he needed the physical gratification more than once or twice a year, but his main point was to be with Ennis -- much more than once or twice a year.

[tpe]

Jack was'nt afraid to make his moves true, but only after some anxious moments on his part. With Lureen, he asked the bartender who she was and got a little bit of info before she came over with her *mating call* .

With Ennis there were periods of time where he staked out his situation before diving in. Sort of felt Ennis out before FNIT. Once he made up his mind that Ennis was'nt gonna put his lights out, he made his moves on him.
Ennis gave him clues as to what he was feeling at different times including the ultimate *opportunity* remark, which Jack obviously took as an invitation to give him one.

With Randall it was a different story.  This had the potential to go very wrong.Their wives were literally right under their noses so Jack could'nt just ask anything about him straight out, but LaShawn provided a little insight into what Randall was about. I think he realized Randall's intentions by the eye contact he was giving and Jack picked up on it right away and gave it right back. As they waited on the bench, Randall took the opportunity to feel Jack out. Not the other way around. I liked the approach. Gentle and indirect, just in case he'd gotten the wrong idea about Jack, then he could withdraw his proposition in case Jack put his lights out.  Smart.

 In all 3 cases Jack himself was drawn into their worlds at different stages of his life. Again, he got something he needed from each of them. Each one served a purpose for him at different times in his life but Ennis was his true love. Jack's approaches  ( except with Randall) showed his lingering fear of rejection imo. With Randall he only had to answer yes or no. Randall was taking the chance of rejection this time, not him.

I got the imprssion that Lureen, Randall and eveyone else Jack hooked up with outside his relationship with Ennis were all surrogates to that one need that dominated his life.  Even his fear of rejection was perhaps tied to his being at the mercy of Ennis.  Ennis had rejected him one time -- when Jack was hoping to see him again after their time on BBM in 63.  It took him 4 years of quiet desperation to ask for another meeting (in the reunion). 

[tpe]

Very good topic I haven't read all, but I think that even tho Jake G. is handsome, he also brings to it a sense of fun that I feel Jack has.

I wouldn't automatically be attracted to someone I didn't think was handsome. If someone was, IMO, less handsome it would take longer for me to see the inside ( yes I know thats shallow but thats the way it is)

So I think that Laureen did that, she saw someone that was the most handsome she had seen, and that was MOSTLY why she fell for him. He also won the bullriding in the competition she won the barrel roll (?) and she fell for a fellow winner, who was handsome. Their relationship deteriorated because that was it.

Ennis on the other hand DIDN't fall for him cause he was handsome, but because they made a connection. Jack made him feel well, he even opened up to him.

I think Randall was a mix of the two. He fell for the handsome and kept falling for the inside...

Very insightful point, Esmelily, especially the one about Lureen.  It did seem that she was drawn to appearances, and the fact that she could dominate Jack, to some extent.

 

[lamusica]

Jack just had that charisma that some people have that brings people to them.  And, he has the habit of being standoffish when somemone new approaches him until he is ready to open up to them.  For example, he doesn't approach Lureen -- he waits for her to come to him.  I'm sure she was the one who wanted to dance, and I'm sure she's the one who started things in the car.  When Randall began to make passes at Jack, he sat on the bench stoically listening to Randall, but never responding -- until he was ready.  He didn't give Randall any positive indicators that he was interested in him and listening to his ideas about their going fishing together, etc.  IN my opinion, Jack had to feel comfortable before he let down his guard, but once he did, he gave it his all.  He took Lureen up on her matin' call- maybe because he was lonelyl; maybe beause she was the daughter of a rich man and he was ready for some of the good life for a change --, and he pursued Ennis with strength and purpose until he got what he wanted from him.  Yes, I think Jack was a  bit of a user, but not in a bad way.  He just saw what he wanted after a long, slow look, and then went after it.  Because of his personal charisma, he usually got what he wanted.

[chameau]

Interesting point of view lamusica

[manhattangirl]

Jack just had that charisma that some people have that brings people to them.  And, he has the habit of being standoffish when someone new approaches him until he is ready to open up to them.  For example, he doesn't approach Lureen -- he waits for her to come to him.  I'm sure she was the one who wanted to dance, and I'm sure she's the one who started things in the car.  When Randall began to make passes at Jack, he sat on the bench stoically listening to Randall, but never responding -- until he was ready.  He didn't give Randall any positive indicators that he was interested in him and listening to his ideas about their going fishing together, etc.  IN my opinion, Jack had to feel comfortable before he let down his guard, but once he did, he gave it his all.  He took Lureen up on her matin' call- maybe because he was lonelyl; maybe beause she was the daughter of a rich man and he was ready for some of the good life for a change --, and he pursued Ennis with strength and purpose until he got what he wanted from him.  Yes, I think Jack was a  bit of a user, but not in a bad way.  He just saw what he wanted after a long, slow look, and then went after it.  Because of his personal charisma, he usually got what he wanted.

But at some point, Jack always giving more then he received.   He tried to be the husband and father, but his position was challenged by LD.   He tried give Ennis the life he thought they both should have.  And for Randall, I bet he tried to be the lover, that Randall wanted. 

But some way along the line they all fell short of his expectations.  Jack was a good person, only looking for love he wanted more than the material things in life. 

[tpe]

Jack just had that charisma that some people have that brings people to them.  And, he has the habit of being standoffish when somemone new approaches him until he is ready to open up to them.  For example, he doesn't approach Lureen -- he waits for her to come to him.  I'm sure she was the one who wanted to dance, and I'm sure she's the one who started things in the car.  When Randall began to make passes at Jack, he sat on the bench stoically listening to Randall, but never responding -- until he was ready.  He didn't give Randall any positive indicators that he was interested in him and listening to his ideas about their going fishing together, etc.  IN my opinion, Jack had to feel comfortable before he let down his guard, but once he did, he gave it his all.  He took Lureen up on her matin' call- maybe because he was lonelyl; maybe beause she was the daughter of a rich man and he was ready for some of the good life for a change --, and he pursued Ennis with strength and purpose until he got what he wanted from him.  Yes, I think Jack was a  bit of a user, but not in a bad way.  He just saw what he wanted after a long, slow look, and then went after it.  Because of his personal charisma, he usually got what he wanted.

It is intersting nonetheless that none of the relationships he put himself into brought him what he truly wanted -- Ennis, Lureen, and Randall.  In a real sense, he is like a child seeking happiness, risking everything -- heedless of the cost.  The best way to describe him is through Whitman's poem:


A NOISELESS, patient spider,   
I mark’d, where, on a little promontory, it stood, isolated;   
Mark’d how, to explore the vacant, vast surrounding,   
It launch’d forth filament, filament, filament, out of itself;   
Ever unreeling them—ever tirelessly speeding them.         
   
And you, O my Soul, where you stand,   
Surrounded, detached, in measureless oceans of space,   
Ceaselessly musing, venturing, throwing,—seeking the spheres, to connect them;   
Till the bridge you will need, be form’d—till the ductile anchor hold;   
Till the gossamer thread you fling, catch somewhere, O my Soul.   

[tpe]

But at some point, Jack always giving more then he received.   He tried to be the husband and father, but his position was challenged by LD.   He tried give Ennis the life he thought they both should have.  And for Randall, I bet he tried to be the lover, that Randall wanted. 

But some way along the line they all fell short of his expectations.  Jack was a good person, only looking for love he wanted more than the material things in life. 

You had anticipated my last post, manhattangirl.  Jack didn't seem to count the cost, always giving more than he received -- if only to find that one thing he sought for all his life: building a life with someone for love.

The user is a myriad times the giver.

[myprivatejack]

I think that Ennis fell for Jack because he needed to be loved;his life was full with bad souvenirs and ,after loosing his parents,he had became alone for the marriages of his brother and sister.He was in any sense a uprooted boy,the same as Jack.This gave him warmth,self-confidence, friendship and affection in a first stage,and for this reason they became after all a good friends and companions;I don´t forget the sexual attraction, that exists,but this happenned "besides".I think also that when Ennis rocks Jack in the DE scene is sharing with him one of the few moments in his childhood when he felt loved and wants to give his lover this same sensation in return
In the case of Lureen,she felt an inmediate attraction for him and,a fanciful rich girl as she was, used to get everythin she wanted,of course she went for him.Maybe she fell in love for him,but I don´t really think that in the end of Jack´s life, she was.

[myprivatejack]

And regarding to Randall,I´ve always thought in the possibility that he was a kind of trap against Jack;perhaps most people that he could thought knew about his sexuality and this was a way to make him coming out...
And above all these particularities,there is the certainty that he was handsome,nice and warm,and really had some hidden quality that attracts people,beyond his external appearance.I´d rather ask:What was it about Ennis?What to be loved for so many years by Jack,Alma-because I feel she´s still in love with him when she told him she knew who was Jack Nasty-and by Cassie-who felt much beyond of a first attraction-?.Only a sexual desire doesn´t work in such different persons during so many years.

[lamusica]

Oh, God, tpe, you just quoted one of my very favorite poems.  I had just never thought of it in connection with Ennis and Jack, but it is very appropos when applied to Jack's tentative moves on people.  You're right.  Jack is always searching for what he is missing most in his life -- true, lasting love that can be lived publicly and proudly.

[tpe]

I think that Ennis fell for Jack because he needed to be loved;his life was full with bad souvenirs and ,after loosing his parents,he had became alone for the marriages of his brother and sister.He was in any sense a uprooted boy,the same as Jack.This gave him warmth,self-confidence, friendship and affection in a first stage,and for this reason they became after all a good friends and companions;I don´t forget the sexual attraction, that exists,but this happenned "besides".I think also that when Ennis rocks Jack in the DE scene is sharing with him one of the few moments in his childhood when he felt loved and wants to give his lover this same sensation in return
In the case of Lureen,she felt an inmediate attraction for him and,a fanciful rich girl as she was, used to get everythin she wanted,of course she went for him.Maybe she fell in love for him,but I don´t really think that in the end of Jack´s life, she was.

Somehow, this rings so true.  And how many times have I seen this in real life?  Thanks myprivatejack. 

Jack too of course, needed to be loved, no?  I guess he at least had his mother, but it was more than counterbalanced by the father.  Perhaps he took this from the mother.   

And he was also seemingly protective of Ennis -- even to the point of lying in order to hide things from him.  I guess Ennis liked Jack for not rocking the boat too much.

[tpe]

Oh, God, tpe, you just quoted one of my very favorite poems.  I had just never thought of it in connection with Ennis and Jack, but it is very appropos when applied to Jack's tentative moves on people.  You're right.  Jack is always searching for what he is missing most in his life -- true, lasting love that can be lived publicly and proudly.

lamusica, I love that poem very much, you know?  I am thrilled that you love it too!  Somehow, I envisioned Ennis as the anchor on which Jack finally catches hold of himself, like the spider in the poem...

[lamusica]

While Jack is always willing to give it a try, he just can't get everything he wants out of Ennis.  This is what I find so sad.  Neither Jack nor Ennis had the resources within themselves to believe they deserved better than what they got out of life.  If only Jack could have totally enwrapped Ennis in his silk thread, how different the ending would have been for both men.

[myprivatejack]

Yes, but I wonder how Jack would have could totally enwrapped Ennis,if he often was like a brick wall...He gave him everything he could need,from sex to comprehension,and even forced him to be more talkative,more willing to share his inner self than with nobody else before.Isn´t this a way to bring someone to oneself?.Of course,society rules was stronger than all this, and for this reason I´d like to ask you in which ways must Jack have done this.

[myprivatejack]

By the way,hasn´t anybody thought that Randall couldn´t feel attracted to Jack?He perfectly could have trapped him ,as I have said formerly,to know exactly if he was gay or not and act after against him.

[tpe]

While Jack is always willing to give it a try, he just can't get everything he wants out of Ennis.  This is what I find so sad.  Neither Jack nor Ennis had the resources within themselves to believe they deserved better than what they got out of life.   If only Jack could have totally enwrapped Ennis in his silk thread, how different the ending would have been for both men.

What you say here moves me very much.  Both of them deserved better.  Perhaps Jack glimpsed this a bit more than Ennis, but he did not have the resolve to push for it.  It is so sad.  But to Jack's credit, he did keep trying.  Perversely, perhaps this is part of why Ennis loved him so.

[tpe]

Yes, but I wonder how Jack would have could totally enwrapped Ennis,if he often was like a brick wall...He gave him everything he could need,from sex to comprehension,and even forced him to be more talkative,more willing to share his inner self than with nobody else before.Isn´t this a way to bring someone to oneself?.Of course,society rules was stronger than all this, and for this reason I´d like to ask you in which ways must Jack have done this.

Well, I also think it was part of Jack's nature to leave some room for Ennis to breathe.  Never did he try to "suffocate" Ennis.  He even waited quietly for so many years -- patiently, to see if Ennis would -- by his own accord -- have a change of heart.  It was in Jack's nature, I think, to love Ennis for who he was, and not for something he wanted him to be.

[myprivatejack]

I agree with you,tpe, in that one of the Jack's qualities was not to suffocate Ennis,always letting him be himself,never forcing him to addapt a decision he was not ready to...You has said a great phrase:Jack loved Ennis for who he was,and not for something he wanted him to be.Great.Is not this what love means?.I imagine how much he must suffer,loving him, looking for him,waiting for him during 20 years, not asking for anything more than being loved.Until"all what they hadn' t say for years" broke in their last reunion...My question is:did Ennis deserve all this?.

[lamusica]

Yes, but I wonder how Jack would have could totally enwrapped Ennis,if he often was like a brick wall...He gave him everything he could need,from sex to comprehension,and even forced him to be more talkative,more willing to share his inner self than with nobody else before.Isn´t this a way to bring someone to oneself?.Of course,society rules was stronger than all this, and for this reason I´d like to ask you in which ways must Jack have done this.

To me, that's the sad part,mpj.  There was nothing Jack wasn't willing to do, but nothing worked with Ennis.  Ennis, too, gave all he could.  He really was not able to respond to Jack fully, openly.  The threads Jack threw out never could catch him unreservedly.  Ennis was always concerned about being caught, being censured by society, getting harrassed or, worse yet, getting killed because he and Jack loved one another.

[lamusica]

Well, I also think it was part of Jack's nature to leave some room for Ennis to breathe.  Never did he try to "suffocate" Ennis.  He even waited quietly for so many years -- patiently, to see if Ennis would -- by his own accord -- have a change of heart.  It was in Jack's nature, I think, to love Ennis for who he was, and not for something he wanted him to be.

I agree with you, tpe.  When Ennis and Jack are talking in the motel room, Jack goes fishing, in a sense.  He asks, in a roundabout way, if Ennis ever thought of him during those four years.  I think he definitely was hinting that Ennis could have found him if he had tried.  Ennis's response was that he didn't know where Jack was, and that he thought he might still be mad about the punch on the mountain.  Jack wanted Ennis to want him enough to go looking for him.  After waiting four years, he finally figured out that Ennis wasn't coming looking for him, so he went to Ennis.  He certainly gave Ennis room here.  Then, Jack sends a card -- thus giving Ennis another chance to ignore him, or to respond negatively about wanting to meet up with him.  Of course, thanks be to God, Ennis jumps on this with his "You bet!"  The game in ON!

[tpe]

I agree with you, tpe.  When Ennis and Jack are talking in the motel room, Jack goes fishing, in a sense.  He asks, in a roundabout way, if Ennis ever thought of him during those four years.  I think he definitely was hinting that Ennis could have found him if he had tried.  Ennis's response was that he didn't know where Jack was, and that he thought he might still be mad about the punch on the mountain.  Jack wanted Ennis to want him enough to go looking for him.  After waiting four years, he finally figured out that Ennis wasn't coming looking for him, so he went to Ennis.  He certainly gave Ennis room here.  Then, Jack sends a card -- thus giving Ennis another chance to ignore him, or to respond negatively about wanting to meet up with him.  Of course, thanks be to God, Ennis jumps on this with his "You bet!"  The game in ON!

Great point, lamusica.  This was at the back of my mind, although I wasn't partuicularly conscious about it.  But the way you say it here makes perfect sense.  Thanks!

[LuvJackNasty]

I agree with you, tpe.  When Ennis and Jack are talking in the motel room, Jack goes fishing, in a sense.  He asks, in a roundabout way, if Ennis ever thought of him during those four years.  I think he definitely was hinting that Ennis could have found him if he had tried.  Ennis's response was that he didn't know where Jack was, and that he thought he might still be mad about the punch on the mountain.  Jack wanted Ennis to want him enough to go looking for him.  After waiting four years, he finally figured out that Ennis wasn't coming looking for him, so he went to Ennis.  He certainly gave Ennis room here.  Then, Jack sends a card -- thus giving Ennis another chance to ignore him, or to respond negatively about wanting to meet up with him.  Of course, thanks be to God, Ennis jumps on this with his "You bet!"  The game in ON!

Great post! I had never thought of it as Jack hinting that Ennis could have looked for him. All of these months later and still something new to be discovered!

[aintfoolin]

I agree with you, tpe.  When Ennis and Jack are talking in the motel room, Jack goes fishing, in a sense.  He asks, in a roundabout way, if Ennis ever thought of him during those four years.  I think he definitely was hinting that Ennis could have found him if he had tried.  Ennis's response was that he didn't know where Jack was, and that he thought he might still be mad about the punch on the mountain.  Jack wanted Ennis to want him enough to go looking for him.  After waiting four years, he finally figured out that Ennis wasn't coming looking for him, so he went to Ennis.  He certainly gave Ennis room here.  Then, Jack sends a card -- thus giving Ennis another chance to ignore him, or to respond negatively about wanting to meet up with him.  Of course, thanks be to God, Ennis jumps on this with his "You bet!"  The game in ON!

 This is thought provoking. Givin Ennis's state of mind during those 4 years before the reunion, no doubt he thought often about Jack, but perhaps he thought Jack would reject him. He had made his bed and was lying in it by marrying Alma and rejecting Jack. Thought Jack was mad at him. Of course Jack did give him a clue that he was going to his parent's house for the winter. Ennis thought "Nah" he don't want to see me  again after what I've done." "He's probably moved on. " The army did'nt get em after all , but this is another reason Ennis just did'nt try to contact Jack. Thought  perhaps Jack was in Viet Nam somewhere. Maybe even thought him killed there. When he recieved the post card from Jack  he was shocked but delighted. , "You Bet" was his response. In other words * You bet your sweet ass I wanna see you again" It was on indeed. 

[ragtimecowboy]

In the FNIT Jack took the lead. He took Ennis hand and guided it to his ready-for-action tool. What attracted Ennis to him was his similar experiences and his complimentary differences. It is true he submitted to Ennis but this is because he wanted to. Remember that the seeds of their love had already been sown at the bar when they had their beer together and this was the first manisfestation of what was to endure for years to come. He also took the lead with Lureen. he picked her hat up after it had fallen off so she would have to come get it and at least speak to him. He played coy with her probably out of fear of another rejection similiar to the one by the the rodeo clown. That of course was the furthest thing from her mind as we all saw! As far as Randall, he found a kindred spirit that was a tall, good looking drink of water that would meet his needs in the outback of Texas. Physically he was a knockout and spiritually he had an incredibly beautiful soul. Look into those eyes, the windows to his soul.

[manhattangirl]

This question has always been in the back of my mind:

Lureen, La Shawn, Randall, Ennis, and the boys in Mexico, there are many question Ennis's sexuality, but Jack to me seem more flexible sexually than Ennis.

My take on Jack is that with right set of circumstances with the right person  Jack would have found a life with someone of either sex who would take the time, care, and the love  Jack seem so desperately to need, Jack would have stayed put.   

After all, if Lureen was able to see the man she married, and I mean really see him, and loved him, that postcard to Ennis would have never been sent, that summer in '63 would have been a sweet memory.

IMO.

[tpe]

I had wondered too if jack would have re-established contact with Ennis had Lureen and her parents treated him better. 

I had sometimes thought that perhaps Jack would have re-established contact sooner or later.  But I suspect that the true determining factor here was if he would have been able to find another man who could statisfy him the way Ennis did.  I somehow think that even if happily married to Lureen, jack would not have been able to resist the urge to establsih intimate connections with other men.  It was part of his nature that needed to be addressed.  If someone he cared about would have agreed to share a life with him, I wonder if Jack would not have gone the same way ayway -- divorcing Lureen in favor of a lifestyle he preferred?

[manhattangirl]

I have to agree with you, it was in Jack's nature.  It was who he was.  Not just for sex but the need of the iintimacy of another man was what he needed and was part of him.  Am I wrong?

[welshwitch]

Too many imponderable and variables, I think, but if Jack had found instead of Lureen a women whose character matched his in some ways and who wasn't particularly interested in hetero sex, maybe, but more probably if she'd been tolerable, even maybe acceptable, as a friend and companion and he hadn't met the one man. Other than Ennis he never did - maybe he didn't look all that hard because it was too dangerous. If we're assuming that neither Lureen nor any other woman he might have married would  be the one, then he might have stuck with whoever because it was safer and easier, in which case a part of the essential Jack would always have had to be suppressed and ignored.

All this is preducated on the romantic belief that there is only ever one who is THE one - in the ss and movie it seems as though that's true for J and E.