Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: manhattangirl on Aug 16, 2007, 06:17 AM
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What really caused Jack's death? Was it intolerance, was it just an accident, or was it Ennis. Jack seemed to spend his life on the road. Mexico, Texas, LF and Brokeback Mountain. Looking for something and really never finding it, no matter how he much he wanted it.
18 hours from Childless to Riverton to LF, and Mexico in between. He died alone on a road he have spent half his life on. Looking for love he spent half his life seeking.
And Ennis blamed Lureen, blamed a faceless mob, but shouldn't he take some responsibility himself?
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What really caused Jack's death? Was it intolerance, was it just an accident, or was it Ennis. Jack seemed to spend his life on the road. Mexico, Texas, LF and Brokeback Mountain. Looking for something and really never finding it, no matter how he much he wanted it.
18 hours from Childless to Riverton to LF, and Mexico in between. He died alone on a road he have spent half his life on. Looking for love he spent half his life seeking.
And Ennis blamed Lureen, blamed a faceless mob, but shouldn't he take some responsibility himself?
I think that Ennis also felt resposible for Jack's death. It would seem that his not seeing his daughters for nearly 2 years would indicated a withdrawal from the world. I also think that part of his motivation for going up to LF and suggesting that he bring Jack's ashes to BBM was an attempt to make up somehow -- to finally take responsibility to see that Jack's wishes were carried out.
And yes, I suspect that Ennis would not be too hard on me if I say that he was partly to blame. But it wasn't just the death per se -- it was more about Jack's dying without realizing his dream that I blame Ennis.
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I suppose both could have been targeted had they been living together. I suppose Jack could have been targeted because of Randall rather than Ennis. And there are homophobes everywhere, not just in Texas.
I suppose you can say it's Ennis's fault for driving or keeping Jack away, and that precipitates Jack's behavior in going ot Mexico and at least listening to Randall's proposal and thinking about it.
But then Ennis is Ennis and there's nothing he can do about it, any more than we can help what life has made us.
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This is a tough question to answer. I think that Ennis's refusal to live with Jack stemmed mostly from his fears of the world, but I think his refusal was more "noble" in that he was not doing it to protect himself, rather he never wanted to see Jack dead in a ditch. I think upon finding out about Jack's death he'd have faced down an army of tire irons to have Jack back. As Thomas mentioned above, him going to LF to try to get the ashes was his way of trying to give one thing to Jack, to make one of his wishes come true. IMO, he did so, symbolically, when he took those shirts home with him- to me that means Jack is with Ennis and makes me feel so much better about him not getting to spread the ashes on Brokeback.
This next part is hard for me because I don't think Ennis is to "blame" but his refusals built up in Jack in the form of depression (IMO) and after that last meeting I believe that the last shred of anything had truly died in Jack and he got reckless and that led to his death. In saying that it sounds like I hold Ennis responsible but I don't. I feel the judgemental society that existed (and still does) had the biggest hand in his death- his physical death at the hands of those that weilded those tire irons and in the emotional death of his dream always beyond his reach.
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This is a tough question to answer. I think that Ennis's refusal to live with Jack stemmed mostly from his fears of the world, but I think his refusal was more "noble" in that he was not doing it to protect himself, rather he never wanted to see Jack dead in a ditch. I think upon finding out about Jack's death he'd have faced down an army of tire irons to have Jack back. As Thomas mentioned above, him going to LF to try to get the ashes was his way of trying to give one thing to Jack, to make one of his wishes come true. IMO, he did so, symbolically, when he took those shirts home with him- to me that means Jack is with Ennis and makes me feel so much better about him not getting to spread the ashes on Brokeback.
This next part is hard for me because I don't think Ennis is to "blame" but his refusals built up in Jack in the form of depression (IMO) and after that last meeting I believe that the last shred of anything had truly died in Jack and he got reckless and that led to his death. In saying that it sounds like I hold Ennis responsible but I don't. I feel the judgemental society that existed (and still does) had the biggest hand in his death- his physical death at the hands of those that weilded those tire irons and in the emotional death of his dream always beyond his reach.
I agree 100% with this LJN. Jack's depression over not being with Ennis led him to be almost self-destuctive with achohol abuse and promiscuous sex, but I suppose I could blame Ennis indirectly in his death.. Ennis is Ennis, Jack is Jack, both did what they had to do , what they knew to do, and yet, it is this narrow minded society we live in ( then and now) that is mostly at fault for how they dealt differently within the relationship.
Ennis, I feel did blame himself in the end when he found out about Jack's death. No doubt left with a world of what-if's and *If I'd only knowns* this or that. Probably even felt guilt at deserving Jack's love. (WWJW)? What would Jack wish of /for Ennis if after his death or before he died he could speak to him one last time? ,I think he say he loved him, cherished every moment, will always be with him and most importantly, don't deny yourself love and happiness.. When Ennis found the shirts, it was Jack saying those very words to him. No blame. MO
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Like aintfoolin , I agree with what LJN had said.
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LJN, I agree with everything you say here. I'm one of those people who just find it nearly impossible to lay the blame card onto someone who cared as much about Jack as Ennis did. He would never have hurt him under any conditions. Now, if society got to him, that's not Ennis's fault. The depression part of your post is so right on. I think Jack was just careless -- maybe he didn't feel he really had anything to live for after that last altercation with Ennis.
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Then Ennis's love was the rock that Jack's love, like a wave, battered itself on. Jack suffered greatly because of it, but he still loved Ennis; Ennis suffered greatly and he still love Jack.
"Tire Irons" , "The Sweet Life" the fear and the dream, the two opposing forces, which was underlined their relationship. How could they face society as a unit, if they couldn't face yet, their own love fully, and completely? It left Jack broken. Ennis understanding way too late.
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Would anyone here object if I say that I think Ennis FELT himself partly to blame (or perhaps entirely to blame) for Jack's death?
Perhaps he also felt that he did not warn Jack enough of the risks he was taking...
In any case, I think Ennis did feal remorse for not facing up fully to their love while Jack was alive. He probably felt that all his caution came to nothing, since with Jack's death, Ennis felt that he met a fate worse than death.
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I wouldn't object, Thomas. I think playing the "blame game" is a human reaction and I'm fairly certain we've had at least one experience with that in our own lives. I think he felt a lot of guilt after Jack was gone. I'm sure he went through their whole relationship and did the what if's etc. And that's exactly it- Ennis got a fate worse than death when Jack died. I also think that in retrospect he may have realized that that having that sweet life for 5 minutes would have been worth any risk. If he was with Jack he had a better shot of protecting him, if need be, than with them being so far apart. And I think the shirts provided tremendous comfort in that that was Jack's I love you from the grave but there's always that double edged sword in a sense. There was Jack when Ennis needed him and where was Ennis when Jack needed him? So I can see a serious case of the guilts and maybe self blame going on there, in that regard. I hope that made some sense.
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I think all of the points mentioned above are valid, insightful interpretations. As far as Ennis's feeling he was responsible for Jack's death, it just adds one more excruciating layer to the tragedy; Jack's end represented the very thing Ennis feared most, and struggled so desperately to avoid. His terror of it can be seen to actually aid in bringing it about.
I feel I must add a couple of points here. I believe the film is structured in such a way as to lead the audience to the conclusion that Jack was in fact murdered. The ss I think is a bit more ambiguous in this respect, as references to the tire iron occur repeatedly in Ennis's thoughts, dreams and talk; thus it is possible to conclude that Ennis is projecting his fear onto Lureen's narrative. The film, interestingly, only mentions the tire iron once, when Ennis tells Jack about Earl and Rich.
In addition, I have noticed with respect to the film, that many people are convinced of Jack's murder by the flatness or seeming coldness of Lureen's recitation in her version of how Jack died. They take this as evidence that she is obviously lying or hiding the truth. From personal experience, I will note that after the sudden, tragic and almost freakish demise of my partner's brother in an accident a couple of years ago, the neccessity of repeating the unbelievable details to what felt like endless inquiries from well-meaning people as to how it had happened, led to some of us reciting the particulars in almost exactly the way that Lureen's character does in the film. It becomes just an overwhelmingly numbing experience. This steers me to the conclusion that her account is, just possibly, after all, accurate.
So...you pays your money and you takes your choice...
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I don't think Ennis should bear any of the blame. True, his failure to allow Jack to share his life on a day to basis was excriciatingly painful to both of them, Ennis was not the one who intiated any of the actions Jack took. Free will is the basis of every choice made in everyday life. Jack chose to go to Mexico and hook up with a hustler. Jack chose to set Ennis free, and take up with Randall. Jack chose to change the tire.
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How wonderful are the posts. It really had me thinking. I really see how we empathize with Ennis, we are reluctant to place any blame on him, but try to understand his point of view, his responsibility on what happened in the story of his and Jack's love.
We also talk of choices, interesting enough for me anyway, is that choices are laid more at Jack's doorstep. He chose to be on that lonely road, he chose to drink, he chose to pursue Ennis, he chose to go to Mexico, he chose to "take up" with Randall. He made "choices".
What about Reaction to Actions (or in this case lack of), all of the changes Jack went through from that first summer to the final confrontation was direct result of his love for Ennis. He loved Ennis, Jack was pure love, and that was all he wanted from Ennis. And all of what he did was a direct result of that love. Jack try to live a life with Ennis and apart from him, but couldn't quite get it right.
It reminds of what his father said in the ss, "like all of Jack ideas it never came to pass". How scary is it that his father nailed Jack's destiny.
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In addition, I have noticed with respect to the film, that many people are convinced of Jack's murder by the flatness or seeming coldness of Lureen's recitation in her version of how Jack died. They take this as evidence that she is obviously lying or hiding the truth. From personal experience, I will note that after the sudden, tragic and almost freakish demise of my partner's brother in an accident a couple of years ago, the neccessity of repeating the unbelievable details to what felt like endless inquiries from well-meaning people as to how it had happened, led to some of us reciting the particulars in almost exactly the way that Lureen's character does in the film. It becomes just an overwhelmingly numbing experience. This steers me to the conclusion that her account is, just possibly, after all, accurate.
So...you pays your money and you takes your choice...
I with you on this one proulxfan, my POV on Jack's death is the one as told by Lureen, the murder scene is in Ennis head. Ennis was convinced Jack was murdered but this is his own opinion. Should Ennis take some blame? No, I don't think so. He for sure feels guilty but like someone posted here it's kind of natural to take the blame over someone's accident or death. The tragedy here is Ennis realizing too late how Jack truly loved him but this is off topic.
Very interesting discussion here BTW. :)
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I feel Ennis learned a valuable lessen in to what Jack knew all along.: that they were safer together than apart. He had to have dealt regrettably with this scenario after Jack's death. They both were making alot of choices ,alot of them bad. Ennis never intentionally set out to hurt Jack in any way shape or form. He loved him.
Keeping in mind that Ennis was looking at this from safety pov, his story becomes clear. He feared the day when some jerk would come along to hurt Jack or himself if they were found out+Ennis had also sacrificed for this relationship, he was kicked out of a day to day life with his kids, quit jobs, refused better ones etc. all to keep seeing Jack 2 or 3 times a year for 20 years. I think he is due credit for what he did do through all his fears, not blame. Although we as veiwers saw better alternatives to their choices concerning this thing, and their lives did not ever quite come into perfect alignnment, they both dealt with this complicated situation in the best way they knew how to . IMO.
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cham,
I don't think that really is off topic-though I have a slight problem in that area ;)-cuz that too-late-realization would only feed his feelings of guilt/responsibility around Jack's death.
ain'tfoolin,
good observations and nicely said.
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I feel Ennis learned a valuable lessen in to what Jack knew all along.: that they were safer together than apart. He had to have dealt regrettably with this scenario after Jack's death. They both were making alot of choices ,alot of them bad. Ennis never intentionally set out to hurt Jack in any way shape or form. He loved him.
Keeping in mind that Ennis was looking at this from safety pov, his story becomes clear. He feared the day when some jerk would come along to hurt Jack or himself if they were found out+Ennis had also sacrificed for this relationship, he was kicked out of a day to day life with his kids, quit jobs, refused better ones etc. all to keep seeing Jack 2 or 3 times a year for 20 years. I think he is due credit for what he did do through all his fears, not blame. Although we as veiwers saw better alternatives to their choices concerning this thing, and their lives did not ever quite come into perfect alignnment, they both dealt with this complicated situation in the best way they knew how to . IMO.
This is right to point, and something Ennis couldn't understand. This is my own view in this part of the story: Ennis was more like his father than he knew. He loved Jack deeply, but this love was to him meant only bad things, not the good that Jack tried to tell him. So he fought off any attempts to live with Jack. Safety sake, yeah sure, that's a factor. But when Ennis hits Jack with "boys like you" he is still separating himself from who Jack was and he is .
When Jack dies, Ennis still couldn't separate from what actually happens to what he believes happens. There were still that space of doubt in him. And I think that what stays with him, remember this is man who lived with this fear all of his life with Jack. This what prevents him from ever getting off of Brokeback Mountain, and to think that a flat tire, and not a tire iron took his lover away is something I don't think he was ready to accept, will ever accept.
Jack's gone now, his journey is over, and Ennis learned how good their love was, and how true it was. Jack believed it, and always did, and showed it to Ennis in his bedroom. It's a wonder why Ennis didn't have a little more faith in Jack's love, that together they were stronger, because separately they sure made a mess of their lives, and "Rich and Earl" may not necessarily be their fate. Faith and fear I guess we saw what won.
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Great posts. I'm tearing up here. Ennis spent so much of his life trying to not be Earl that he became Rich. I guess there is a lesson in there too- if you live life focused on one thing you lose sight of the rest. I'm in the Jack was murdered "camp" I guess first impressions really are lasting ones. I can't shake that, despite the fact that an accident is so much easier to accept but at the end of the day Jack is gone and that is what I still have trouble accepting.
He loved Jack deeply, but this love was to him meant only bad things, not the good that Jack tried to tell him. Well said MG.
I agree with aintfoolin' as well- despite his fears Ennis still made every effort to meet Jack because he did love him. That's why I have trouble with "blaming" him. As I mentioned earlier. I think Ennis keeping Jack at bay was out of love not because he was a jerk. These lines from a Bruce song (Cautious Man) remind me so much of Ennis: On his right hand Billy tattooed the word love and on his left hand was the word fear
And in which hand he held his fate was never clear.
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IMO:
For me anyway, I not sure of what happen to Jack. But this if anything is a "cautionary tale". It shows what hate does, it show us what fear can do.
If Jack's death was a murder, a "gay bashing", then Ennis was right along, he had a reason to fear, after all he seen such things already when he was nine, then hate exist, end of story, (we know that it does exist, we seen it or was recipients of it).
But what does that hate, that fear does to a human being, how does control his life, influence him in the way he lives his life, and how it destroyed his life.
Ennis was a perfect messenger, through him, we saw what seeing hate as a boy can do a man, and because of it the hate of one self can grow. Ennis distant himself from the one true love of his life,and the painful struggle of that love which was life giving, life sustaining, and hopeful, and stifled because of fear. And in the end the death of his lover would always haunt him, the spoon in the can of beans that turned into tire irons. The manner of Jack's death is something Ennis would always be struggling with that image of Jack's dying in his mind, what was truth, and what was his reality, and what we can learn from it. My 2 cent.
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It's also a lot easier to live someone else's life and decide what they should do/have done than it is to live one's own. Ennis does what he does because he's what he is and what his experience of life has made him - and of course there is no guarantee that even if he had committed to Jack and even if they had settled down together, they would have survived unscathed. There is hatred everywhere - one or the other or both of them could still have become victims of homophobic violence just as Ennis had always feared.
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Quote from LuvJackNasty:
"These lines from a Bruce song (Cautious Man) remind me so much of Ennis: On his right hand Billy tattooed the word love and on his left hand was the word fear
And in which hand he held his fate was never clear. "
Not just those lines, but that whole song is so evocative of Ennis Del Mar and his struggle with his dilemna.
Ya had to go there didya?? :\'( :\'(
And now back to our regularly scheduled topic...
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*o)
Thanks AP for leaving that door to explore open. All are welcome.
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It's also a lot easier to live someone else's life and decide what they should do/have done than it is to live one's own. Ennis does what he does because he's what he is and what his experience of life has made him - and of course there is no guarantee that even if he had committed to Jack and even if they had settled down together, they would have survived unscathed. There is hatred everywhere - one or the other or both of them could still have become victims of homophobic violence just as Ennis had always feared.
Perhaps the guilt of Ennis was more the guilt of not having taken that risk. He realized too late that life itself was a risk, and opportunities come and go, sometimes never to return.
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Of course,we must put the blame for Jack´s death on intolerance, hate and incomprehension,but sometimes there´s a kind of "ideological weapon"that is almost as responsible than these one who acts.In this sense,I agree that Ennis behaviour,pretending to protect Jack during half his life,was a way to separate him from his dreams at the end of his relationship,making him not to be as much on the guard as before and making him,at last,fall on what had been Ennis most dreared nightmare.This is,unfortunately,one of the many contradictions that life has...And Ennis was also during half his life a living contradiction,torn between his deepest and strongest feelings and his deepest and strongest fears.For this reason,I think his blame on Jack´s death is indirect, and of course,I also think he felt more guilty for not letting these feelings win in his inner battle when nothing could already be done.
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Of course,we must put the blame for Jack´s death on intolerance, hate and incomprehension,but sometimes there´s a kind of "ideological weapon"that is almost as responsible than these one who acts.In this sense,I agree that Ennis behaviour,pretending to protect Jack during half his life,was a way to separate him from his dreams at the end of his relationship,making him not to be as much on the guard as before and making him,at last,fall on what had been Ennis most dreared nightmare.This is,unfortunately,one of the many contradictions that life has...And Ennis was also during half his life a living contradiction,torn between his deepest and strongest feelings and his deepest and strongest fears.For this reason,I think his blame on Jack´s death is indirect, and of course,I also think he felt more guilty for not letting these feelings win in his inner battle when nothing could already be done.
MPJ, this is beautifully said. Thank you.
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MPJ, this is beautifully said. Thank you.
^-^ Don´t mention it.
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I don't think Ennis should bear any of the blame. True, his failure to allow Jack to share his life on a day to basis was excriciatingly painful to both of them, Ennis was not the one who intiated any of the actions Jack took. Free will is the basis of every choice made in everyday life. Jack chose to go to Mexico and hook up with a hustler. Jack chose to set Ennis free, and take up with Randall. Jack chose to change the tire.
I agree with you Ragtime. Jack and Ennis made their choices. But, the range of their choices was severely limited because of the closets they lived in. Like many closeted Gay men, especially during the time that Jack and Ennis lived, Jack chose to look for love in a risky place, whether it was with the prostitute in Juarez or cruising on the side of the road in near Childress. In reference to an earlier post: we know that Jack was not killed by an exploding tire,or because he was "seeing Randall", he was probably trying to pick up the "wrong" men. Jack had a history of trying to pick up the "wrong" men, remember the scene when he tried to pick up the rodeo clown after the rodeo event in Electra. I think that Jack understood the danger and chose what he chose. Ennis also understood the danger and made his choices. One of the great things about BBM is that it shows how the choices in a Gay man's life in that time, and perhaps today as well, were sadly restricted.
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I suppose both could have been targeted had they been living together. I suppose Jack could have been targeted because of Randall rather than Ennis. And there are homophobes everywhere, not just in Texas.
You are right Welshwitch, homophobia seems to be more or less universal. I disagree with you that Jack was targeted because of his relationship with Randall. Jack had a history of looking for sex in risky places. Remember the scene after the rodeo in Electra where Jack tries to pick up the Rodeo Clown....Jack was close to getting punched in the face at that moment. Gay men in that period ( 60's), in rural America, had few arenas available to them for sexual rendezvous. Almost any sexual venue available for Jack had a great deal of risk involved, except for Ennis and possible later Randall. Jack was a restless fellow and he undoubtedly cruised for sex from time to time. In his murder scene on the side of a Texas highway, I think that we can assume that Jack was attempting to pick up those guys who then beat him to death, possibly at a road side park. Texas has numerous roadside parks on major highways and rural county roads, it is commonly understood here in Texas that sex can be had at those roadside parks.
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Welcome, brokeplex! :)
I think WW was saying that no matter who Jack ended up living with -- Randall or Ennis -- he could have been "targetted" all the same, as in the manner that Earl was targetted because he lived with another man. It was simply a matter of circumstances. Jack seemed to have been oblivious to the risks he was taking. Even with Ennis, he may have still very well exposed himself to such risks...
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Welcome, brokeplex! :)
I think WW was saying that no matter who Jack ended up living with -- Randall or Ennis -- he could have been "targetted" all the same, as in the manner that Earl was targetted because he lived with another man. It was simply a matter of circumstances. Jack seemed to have been oblivious to the risks he was taking. Even with Ennis, he may have still very well exposed himself to such risks...
TPE....Thanks for the welcome, I love the dialog. I agree with you that Jack was oblivious to the risks that he was taking, while Ennis was very well aware of how vulnerable he was. Had Jack and Ennis lived in close proximity but not with each other, they could have continued a relationship that would have been fairly safe for them, whether they were in Texas or Wyoming. But, Jack took extraordinary risks in his "cruising". That is what made Jack vulnerable.
This seems also to be a current events topic with the arrest and implosion of Senator Craig, Idaho.Craig could probably been a discrete bisexual and continued his hypocritical career in the Senate without being publicly outed. But, like Jack he needed risky situations. Suppose Ennis and Jack had lived in the same county in Wyoming. Let's suppose they had continued their relationship meeting once a week instead of twice a year. Does anyone think that Jack would not have on the sly tried for a little action at a roadside park or a bar or a restroom somewhere? I think that he would have looked for some exciting risky sex, and either Ennis would have found out and bashed Jack, or Jack would have been bashed by a homophobe that he tried to pick up.
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Yes, tpe's comment reflects what I think. I also imagine that if anyone in Childress knew or suspected about Jack and Randall, and both would be known in the community and recognisable, the good ol' boys of the locality might well have decided to take the law into their own hands and get rid of the queer who was an outsider in that he wasn't Texan but only married into local wealth. I never assumed that he'd been cruising the back lanes; if indeed he was killed as Ennis sees it, I assumed it was by a gang looking for him when he was somewhere they could get him alone.
*o) The things I don't know! We stopped in loads of those wayside places - to take pix of the road or the wild flowers ( you know, the ones planted after Ladybird Johnson's campaign) or just to have a drink and a break - had no idea of their more exotic aspects.
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TPE....Thanks for the welcome, I love the dialog. I agree with you that Jack was oblivious to the risks that he was taking, while Ennis was very well aware of how vulnerable he was. Had Jack and Ennis lived in close proximity but not with each other, they could have continued a relationship that would have been fairly safe for them, whether they were in Texas or Wyoming. But, Jack took extraordinary risks in his "cruising". That is what made Jack vulnerable.
This seems also to be a current events topic with the arrest and implosion of Senator Craig, Idaho.Craig could probably been a discrete bisexual and continued his hypocritical career in the Senate without being publicly outed. But, like Jack he needed risky situations. Suppose Ennis and Jack had lived in the same county in Wyoming. Let's suppose they had continued their relationship meeting once a week instead of twice a year. Does anyone think that Jack would not have on the sly tried for a little action at a roadside park or a bar or a restroom somewhere? I think that he would have looked for some exciting risky sex, and either Ennis would have found out and bashed Jack, or Jack would have been bashed by a homophobe that he tried to pick up.
Interesting insights here, brokeplex: about the nature of taking risks, especially relating to anonymous sex.
I think that so long as Jack didn't feel that he had Ennis, he would continue to take such risks, as some kind of solace -- a source of some satisfaction to alleviate the frustration.
It is interesting that he did not fear Ennis or being found out by Ennis. I guess he partly blamed Ennis for all of this...
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Interesting insights here, brokeplex: about the nature of taking risks, especially relating to anonymous sex.
I think that so long as Jack didn't feel that he had Ennis, he would continue to take such risks, as some kind of solace -- a source of some satisfaction to alleviate the frustration.
It is interesting that he did not fear Ennis or being found out by Ennis. I guess he partly blamed Ennis for all of this...
I think that Jack understood that Ennis was capable of violence. Did Jack consider that Ennis would ever become more violent than to give Jack a bloody nose or another black eye? Jack was probably confident that Ennis would not kill him.As was revealed in their final camping scene, Ennis had a jealous streak when it came to Jack, "those things I don't know could get you killed". I think that Ennis was truly jealous, but maybe also he was warning Jack that playing around in dangerous arenas could get Jack killed by the type of homophobes who killed Earl and Rich.
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I think that Jack understood that Ennis was capable of violence. Did Jack consider that Ennis would ever become more violent than to give Jack a bloody nose or another black eye? Jack was probably confident that Ennis would not kill him.As was revealed in their final camping scene, Ennis had a jealous streak when it came to Jack, "those things I don't know could get you killed". I think that Ennis was truly jealous, but maybe also he was warning Jack that playing around in dangerous arenas could get Jack killed by the type of homophobes who killed Earl and Rich.
That's an interesting take,. I was always concerned that Ennis had almost a split personality when it came to his relationship with Jack. His homophobic fear, and his need to be seen as "straight" and his love and possessiveness of Jack, put Jack in that untenable position. Ennis saw this albeit too late to do anything about it.
Jack was out there in the world Ennis couldn't do any thing about that, and Jack wanted to be with him, and Ennis still wouldn't do anything about that. Either the world would kill Jack or he would. Jack had power and was powerless. Ennis saw no one but Jack in his life, but not part of his life.
Ennis always saw their relationship through the prism of Earl and Rich. Ennis couldn't get past that, no matter how hard Jack tried to bring him out of it.
So Jack drove those miles for twenty year to be with Ennis, and drove places where his lonliness took him, and died on those roads, and Ennis fear of what fate might hold for one of them or for both was reality no matter how he saw Jack's death, the irony is so painful.
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I think that Jack understood that Ennis was capable of violence. Did Jack consider that Ennis would ever become more violent than to give Jack a bloody nose or another black eye? Jack was probably confident that Ennis would not kill him.As was revealed in their final camping scene, Ennis had a jealous streak when it came to Jack, "those things I don't know could get you killed". I think that Ennis was truly jealous, but maybe also he was warning Jack that playing around in dangerous arenas could get Jack killed by the type of homophobes who killed Earl and Rich.
brokeplex, these also reflect my point of view. And your last comment echoes an earlier discussion, where some of us felt that Ennis's threat to Jack in the confrontation scene had a double significance -- exactly the same as what you say here.
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That's an interesting take,. I was always concerned that Ennis had almost a split personality when it came to his relationship with Jack. His homophobic fear, and his need to be seen as "straight" and his love and possessiveness of Jack, put Jack in that untenable position. Ennis saw this albeit too late to do anything about it.
Yes, there was a definite struggle between opposing forces inside Ennis, as far as his feelings for Jack was concerned. I think even with Jack's death, he must have been divided -- in the sense that he must have felt vindicated in his fears, and that he felt some responsibility for not having broken the bonds of his own fears.
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Yes, there was a definite struggle between opposing forces inside Ennis, as far as his feelings for Jack was concerned. I think even with Jack's death, he must have been divided -- in the sense that he must have felt vindicated in his fears, and that he felt some responsibility for not having broken the bonds of his own fears.
I've been feeling the same way on that. I really don't think he'd come to terms with it the relationship even after Jacks death.
The division within him is shown when he closes the door of the closet at the end of the film. Everything that made him was behind that closet door.
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Yes, there was a definite struggle between opposing forces inside Ennis, as far as his feelings for Jack was concerned. I think even with Jack's death, he must have been divided -- in the sense that he must have felt vindicated in his fears, and that he felt some responsibility for not having broken the bonds of his own fears.
This is certainly right . In the sense only thinking if he'd only tried harder , only did this, only said that, but i think he did come to terms with the relationship after Jack's death. I don't believe he could help it. Jack leaving him such a powerful message in the shirts that Ennis was almost redeemed. I feel he found the depth of Jack's love,That Jack was not *playing* love all those years since "63" . He realized that Jack's love was real and now understood why Jack said and did all the things he did for 20 years. , then he swore to honor that which came before ,in honor of the lessons Jack taught him about their time together. Always and forever.
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Well said,aintfoolin.For me Ennis was closer to Jack after his death that during all his long-life relationship because he realised,in a very human reaction,the power and strenght of their love completely ,only when he couldn´t already learn from his mistakes,when he couldn´t recover what he had lost...And in this sense,he was guilty because he made Jack lost almost his reason for living and,with it,lose his foresight in taking risks.Because,as I think it was Tony who said-if not,sorry...-he previously had killed the joyful,dreamer and romantic Jack he had known in BBM and put the basis for that someone else kill him in literal way of speaking.
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This is certainly right . In the sense only thinking if he'd only tried harder , only did this, only said that, but i think he did come to terms with the relationship after Jack's death. I don't believe he could help it. Jack leaving him such a powerful message in the shirts that Ennis was almost redeemed. I feel he found the depth of Jack's love,That Jack was not *playing* love all those years since "63" . He realized that Jack's love was real and now understood why Jack said and did all the things he did for 20 years. , then he swore to honor that which came before ,in honor of the lessons Jack taught him about their time together. Always and forever.
I echo myprivatejack: beautifully said, aintfoolin. I remeber the final ironic sentence in the dream sequence that ends the ss. Ennis certainly couldn't help it. I do think there is redemption for him in the end, and the power of their love was instrumental in this realization. But I also feel that with this realization remained some doubt and much suffering. I think it is because of regret. If Ennis were to blame for Jack's death, he certainly suffered enough because of it.
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IMO he had to feel a level of responsibility for Jack's death , perhaps ashamed of himself for not being there to protect Jack from the vision of Jack's death he had in his mind. It was his fear that this would happen if they got careless.
Had he been there with Jack, things may have turned out differently. It's very human for him, but devastating in a personal way. The story of Earl and Rich was somethig between just them. I suppose that Ennis found it probable and ironic at the same time.
He had to realize this before he came to terms with the relationship between he and Jack. I think he did that.
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I think that he must feel a kind of stupid impotence for having denied to Jack the possibility of fullfilling his dreams during so many years to avoid any of them have the same end that at the end Jack had.
It must be very exasperating for Ennis to live such a great negation of his deepest feelings to be right at the end.
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From the final scenes, it would seem that Ennis fet that he was responsible. Remorse was clearly written all over his face, especially in the last shot when he says "I swear."
And MPJ, I like the way you say it: "a great negation". If Ennis were somehow responsible, it was more bacause of what he didn't do -- rather than what he did.
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Thanks,Thomas¡ :t) I suppose it´s like this phrase that says how much is better to complain for what one has done and it has resulted badly that to complain asking oneself what something has been if one has been bold enough to do it.
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Sins of omission rather than sins of commission in Catholic thought?
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Thanks MPJ and WW.
WW, yes, I guess one would call them sins of omission. But I wonder about MPJ's comment. Fear certainly played a huge role in Ennis's inaction. But I recall some other idea we discussed a long time back -- whether Ennis intentionally did not act because he felt it was the best way of protecting their love.
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IMO he had to feel a level of responsibility for Jack's death , perhaps ashamed of himself for not being there to protect Jack from the vision of Jack's death he had in his mind. It was his fear that this would happen if they got careless.
Had he been there with Jack, things may have turned out differently. It's very human for him, but devastating in a personal way. The story of Earl and Rich was somethig between just them. I suppose that Ennis found it probable and ironic at the same time.
He had to realize this before he came to terms with the relationship between he and Jack. I think he did that.
Thanks MPJ and WW.
WW, yes, I guess one would call them sins of omission. But I wonder about MPJ's comment. Fear certainly played a huge role in Ennis's inaction. But I recall some other idea we discussed a long time back -- whether Ennis intentionally did not act because he felt it was the best way of protecting their love.
I hope I'm making sense:
Isn't this Ennis MO in every aspect of his life? From childhood to adulthood he followed the road that other's set out for him or the road that he thought others expected of him. No one ever told him he had choices until Jack entered his life, this is when "Earl and Rich" comes into play, a story he would never have told anyone until his need for Jack emerges. The lessons from that is what he believes in, and lived by.
The irony comes into play is when he loses Jack, if he kept Jack close to him, protecting him, loving him Jack would still be with him. After all from "Earl and Rich" showed him what to look out for what the realities were, even if Jack's reality was living with him, and loving him. Ennis reality would have been in protecting both of them. If he only believed in his courage could have matched or exceeded his love.
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Have never heard anybody say this, so will go there, at some risk---isn't it possible that Ennis never really felt his love was returned, at
the level that he felt it, until AFTER the shirts? So how could he be guilty of anything?
Most of the great love stories and those from real life, show that one great misery-doubt at being loved at the same level. Please
remember, Ennis KNEW Jack was experienced, FNIT, by Jack's behavior, and yet Ennis did not want to be "queer". Whether Ennis was
straight or repressed gay, that's not the point. He only wanted Jack but could tell--Jack could do this with others. In that context, as
he approached the tent, SNIT, he was taking a great risk with his loneliness and the love that had developed.
And remember, when the season was cut short, Jack showed no visible regret they were to part ways. It was Ennis who sat on that
hill, brooding. So that when Jack becomes playful with the lasso, no wonder the tussle ends up bloody as there had to have been rage
in Ennis at Jack's lackadaisical attitude.
And it was Ennis who puked his guts out as Jack drove off, still playing the time on that mountain as an extended one night stand.
And Ennis who waits nervously to see if Jack will show up, after getting the postcard. Whatever Jack said or did that was romantic
and persistent, he had already given Ennis cause for doubt, which Ennis lived with, as best he could.
At the parents home, notice the stoicism shown, when Jack's father refers to some other guy going to move there with Jack. Ennis
has that understanding, weak smile, accepting that Jack had loved him, but also others.
It is ONLY when Ennis finds the shirts that he knows his love HAD been returned--completely. Otherwise-there was no discovery, no
epiphany, no reason to live alone, haunted, for the rest of his life. Their love had been equal-they just failed to see that and had therefore
failed to prove it, to the other.
Ennis ain't guilty. Life is.
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Wow, I had never once thought Ennis was to blame.
Responsibility is the murders and the murders alone. Not intolerance, not society, and definitely not Ennis. He was the victim, not once, but twice, first at the scene that his father forced him to watch at the tender age of nine, then at the tragic end of the love of his life.
Yes, Ennis was part of the tragedy that caused Jack to seek comfort in Mexico, and in the Texan ranch hand. But Ennis was NOT the cause of it, nor did he contributed to it.
Jack was drinking before he met Ennis, note the whiskey bottle that he always had with him, and which by the way, he used to seduce Ennis before their first night in the tent.
Jack may have proposed to Ennis about sharing a ranch together, and for all we know, he may have done so repeatedly for the next twenty years. But am I the only one who noticed that Ennis mentioned in their last meeting that Jack had other ideas once. Hoping, perhaps, for Jack to take it up again. Yet, Jack went on a tirade, justifiably or not, about he had it ONCE, not realizing, that Ennis with his back turned, was crying, dying slowing inside, thinking that Jack no longer loved him, seeking love elsewhere, in Mexico. I noticed how upset Ennis got at Jack's father mentioned of Jack's idea of the two of them together in his ranch, then that spring, changed the tune.
The tragedy was the broke down in communication, not anyone's fault.
The love that dared not speak its name, made two soul-mates mute.
Ennis was the victim, not the blame.
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Thanks, Lancecowboy----was trying to say what you did say---breakdown in communication. Seems strange that that could
occur when they had been so intimate, but whether the code of the west, not talking much, or the fears that can happen in great loves,
there was a failure of some kind, otherwise Ennis would never have had the great trauma of finding proof he was loved--the shirts.
There never would have been that scene, has Ennis known, the love went all the way back. The secret of the shirts was information
Jack somehow could not convey. "Brokeback got us good."? Not strong enough. "Sometimes I wish it could be like this, always..."?
Still not there. "Sometimes, I miss you so much I can hardly stand it.."? Almost there. "I have loved you more than you could ever know..."
That he kept as a secret. In the closet. They managed to come out of the closet to have sex. They never got out of the closet with
the enduring depth of their love, each for the other. And with Jack that is literally true. Not even in the actual closet, but behind it.
They did the best they could and, again---Ennis was not to blame. I agree entirely, he was as much a victim of Jack's death as
Jack, himself.
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Well said, Tony. I was initially mystified by Ennis' reaction finding the two shirts. I had not been watching Ennis' face as much during previous viewing, but paid special attention last night for some reason, probably because I was no longer distracted by the many detail elements that filled the screen. Then last night, while watching the movie again for the umpteenth time, I broke down sobbing more intensely than ever during the the scenes when Jack's father explained about Jack's wish to have Ennis help him in the family farm, and the change of tune that spring. The deep sobbing was unusual because all the crying previously had been nothing more than a river of tears. Nothing audible. But this time, it was like I had never cried before. And then the sobbing intensified even more, and I could hardly see the screen in the scene when I noticed the expression of shock in Ennis' face as he found the two shirts. I had read about this scene, and watched the movie many times before, but the emotional resonance that Heath conveyed in a split second, reaching for the shirts, almost in slow motion, hit something deep within me that I did not know was there, the wish to have expressed my love more simply, unashamedly, and directly to him before I lost him.
The tragic story ran deep, not only love lost, but also the lost opportunity for real happiness, "like this...always" not only in the film, but for everyone who has his or her own Brokeback. For us, the words that Jack used should have been enough to tell Ennis, as you quoted so poignantly.
"Brokeback got us good."? Not strong enough. "Sometimes I wish it could be like this, always..."? Still not there. "Sometimes, I miss you so much I can hardly stand it.."?
But instead, he heard only the famous line in their last meeting, "I wish I knew how to quit you." as meaning that Jack no longer wanted to be with him. I had never liked that line, and feel sad when people use it in jest. To me, it is the saddest line in the whole movie. It was also the line that triggered the sobbing breakdown in Ennis, not unlike my own last night.
Sigh...
The relief came with Ennis in the trailer, asking Elma Jr if Kurt loves her. Finally, the man who shut out love, understood love. I think it was also the reason the Cassie character was introduced into the movie. "Girls don't fall in love with fun..."
Others said they felt the closing scene did not give them closure in the movie.
Seeing Ennis content with his loneliness, with his memories of Brokeback mountain and the love of his life, with his committed devotion to a love lost, I also felt content with my loneliness, and my memories.
This movie is cathartic in many ways, and this forum has been a blessing to allow me to put my thoughts and feelings into words, in the presence of a warm, accepting, supportive community of kindred spirit.
Thank you all for being there.
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I dont think ennis should take the blame for jack,s death jack was responsible for his own actions but i do think ennis probaly feels partly responsible perhaps thinking if we were together this might not of happened
because jack possibly wouldnt have been in that place at that time.
I do agree wih brokeplex and i did mention this in another thread that i didnt think jack would stay faithful to ennis, i think jack was a chancer and a risk taker and i do believe he would of looked for ecxitement
elsewere not on a permanent basis because he only wanted ennis permanently .
I also think if they lived in close proximity to each other or actualy lived together that would,nt of kept jack on the straight and narrow even though ennis was the love of his life and to be with ennis was his dream come true but somehow i have my doubts. It looks like jack took his chances and paid the ultimate price. but jack %)
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I respectfully disagree with your character assessment of Jack.
He was a responsible and loving father to his son, who also respected him. He was faithful except the one incident that we know of in Mexico, after he was rejected by Ennis when the divorce came through, but Ennis found other reasons not to be with him. He was depressed, dejected, almost destroyed.
We don't know for certain that he would be unfaithful to Ennis if they were, say, married.
I think only unhappy spouses are unfaithful. Then again, I can be naive.
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I respectfully disagree with your character assessment of Jack.
He was a responsible and loving father to his son, who also respected him. He was faithful except the one incident that we know of in Mexico, after he was rejected by Ennis when the divorce came through, but Ennis found other reasons not to be with him. He was depressed, dejected, almost destroyed.
We don't know for certain that he would be unfaithful to Ennis if they were, say, married.
I think only unhappy spouses are unfaithful. Then again, I can be naive.
You are right we dont know for sure but that is just the way i see jack. i agree he was a responsible father that showed when he said to laureen about ringing the school about getting bobby a tutor because she didnt seem bothered.And yes when jack went to mexico it was only because he was more or less turned away by ennis but i just have a nagging doubt in my mind. On the other hand i dont think ennis would of been unfaithful to jack for one minute.
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"I'm not you", that is was the most honest thing that Jack said to Ennis. He was not him, and was not suppose to be. Jack was who he was, and the reason Ennis loved him.
This is a man who for twenty years loved Ennis, and repeatedly went back to him. Why? For what reason? Sex? No it was so much more than that. He believed in Ennis, He believed in what they had was worth all the pain he himself endured because of it.
No matter how much Ennis refused him, even to the point of cruelty, (remember the comment Ennis gives Jack about moving to Texas), and how he sent Jack away, when he was divorced, and it was Ennis himself who tells Jack, didn't he think Jack would "redline" back to him? And through it all Jack always returned to him.
We praise Ennis almost to sainthood for faithfulness, but not seeing how damaged this man soul was and how Jack made it alright for him to be who he was, and we still condemn Jack for being what? Being human. The aspect of Jack's life was something Ennis couldn't deal with, or understand, but still he would not release Jack.
Jack's love is equal to that of Ennis. Not only did Ennis find that out in Jack's room, but he showed Ennis what love was. Something he tried to tell him all those years he was with him.
Just my thoughts.
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Eh, I beg to differ. All through the BBM fandom, it has always been Ennis who's condemned.
I agree with lancecowboy, I don't think Ennis should be blamed for Jack's death. If you can accept Jack's statement of "I'm not you" to Ennis, you should also accept that Ennis is not Jack, you cannot expect Ennis to act the same way as Jack. They are both victim of the intolerance of the society; even now there is still a long way for homosexuality to be fully embraced by the society.
IMO:
We all know that Ennis was definitely not Jack. We got that idea with "I'll stick with beans", and Jack said "I won't". The whole relationship was conducted within Ennis's comfort zone, out in the middle of nowwhere. And Jack returned there for years to be with him. Their perspectives were indeed different. Jack wanted more than Ennis was able to give him, for Jack, he wanted to give Ennis more than what he was able to handle.
We know and have experience with society feelings about homosexuality, and believe me I know. Its' the war going on within this relationship and within Ennis himself. And how it played out in their lives, and their love.
Ennis needed proof of love from Jack, he wasn't that sure. I'm wrong?
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Wow, I didn't know anyone condemned Ennis in BBM fandom. I mean, I so identified with him that I was totally nonjudgmental. Even Jack, who I adore, but cannot identify with, was human as Manhattengirl said. They have their character flaws, and they are unique and special because of them. They wouldn't be soul-mates if they weren't uniquely the way they were.
I appreciate your observation, too, that the entire relationship was conducted in Ennis' comfort zone. That Jack was the one who made the most effort in the relationship. Ennis blamed Jack in their last meeting because he had to quit jobs in their twenty years together, and he probably got a bad rep in that small town for the queer things that people probably talked about behind his back. Ennis sacrificed a lot for the love of his life, but did not DO much. Jack did all the work in the relationship, just as I suspect Ennis did all the cowboy stuff when they got together, since he was the better cowboy.
I am not convinced that Jack would be unfaithful to Ennis when they are a couple. The fact that Jack did not have much of a relationship with Laureen, while Ennis continued to have sex with Elma showed that if anything, Ennis was the bisexual while Jack was the gay one. In any case, they both loved and needed each other, and I would be very surprised if they would stray with anyone when they are a couple.
By the way, I didn't like Randall, the Texan neighbor rancher, and have wondered if he was the one who betrayed Jack, and got him killed. The good ol' boy probably got jealous of Jack's talking about Brokeback Mountain and the time spent with Ennis. It's conceivable. Jack was romantic enough to steal Ennis' shirt in their first summer, and kept them in his closet for twenty years. I can't picture him with anyone else. The scene with Jimbo the clown began with Jimbo entering the bar where Jack was all alone brooding over a beer, when Jimbo walked in wearing a "white" cowboy hat, looking like Ennis from behind. Even the Mexican guy in the alley resembled Ennis to some degree. And the quiet Texan must have reminded Jack of the quiet Ennis (even in spite of the beard). Jack was not looking to stray for more excitement, but fulfillment, to be with Ennis even by proxy). Jack was doing what Ennis did with Elma, when she brought up his lonely childhood to get him to move to Riverton for the girls (really for herself). Ennis flipped Elma on her stomach and took her the way he did it with Jack. Again, it tells me that Ennis was the bisexual to Jack's being more gay.
Wow, this forum is great, but I am spending so much time here!
I can see why you all call it home!
$) ;D
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I think only unhappy spouses are unfaithful. Then again, I can be naive.
I think this gives us a lot of insight into Jack's infidelity. I had always thought that had he had Ennis, he would have been faithful.
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Very interesting exchanges here.
Personally, I think Jack understood Ennis enough not to blame him. In the end, I felt Jack was resigned to moving on, not because he had grown to hate Ennis, but because he realized that trying to move him only hurt Ennis all te more.
As far as Ennis is concerned, I have no doubt that he blamed himself to a great extent for Jack's death. It does not really matter if this is true or not -- Ennis felt some responsibility to Jack, especially in the light of his expereince with Earl and Rich.
If there is anything to blame on Ennis, it is not having seized the chance of a lifetime. Perhaps Jack was fated to die because of his willingness to take risks. IMO, Ennis should have taken that risk. Life is only worth living for certain things. To rject these is to ensure a living death.
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Very interesting exchanges here.
Personally, I think Jack understood Ennis enough not to blame him. In the end, I felt Jack was resigned to moving on, not because he had grown to hate Ennis, but because he realized that trying to move him only hurt Ennis all te more.
As far as Ennis is concerned, I have no doubt that he blamed himself to a great extent for Jack's death. It does not really matter if this is true or not -- Ennis felt some responsibility to Jack, especially in the light of his expereince with Earl and Rich.
If there is anything to blame on Ennis, it is not having seized the chance of a lifetime. Perhaps Jack was fated to die because of his willingness to take risks. IMO, Ennis should have taken that risk. Life is only worth living for certain things. To rject these is to ensure a living death.
This is indeed an interesting thread that generated a lot of insight into the depth of their relationship.
First of all, I agree with you that Ennis would blame himself, which is natural in any death, especially in so intimately related to their last meeting. I don't think Jack died because of Ennis, but Ennis might feel differently.
Secondly, I agree that Jack resigned to moving on not because he needed excitement from elsewhere, nor because he no long loves Ennis. As you said, Ennis told Jack at the last meeting that he can't take this any more. That this ride is over, he is down. Jack may be able to do the long distance love affair, but it's hurting Ennis, and Jack did not want to hurt Ennis, not even at the price of their meetings. It showed Jack's love is certainly sacrificial; he would do anything for Ennis, before Ennis asked him.
And Finally, I don't agree about taking risk. They journey that Ennis struggled with is not about risk anything. There is no risk to be in Jack's arms. The issue, IMO, is integrity. Ennis should have called off the engagement with Elma or at least postpone it. He counted on "lead us not into temptation, and deliver us from evil" to continue in a normal life. That was his first mistake, denying his true feelings. His second mistake was lying to Elma. I thought the sound track was a masterpiece. Just as Ennis told Elma his first lie about Jack, the guitar sounded a brief but dissonant chord that reverberated. Part of what destroyed the marriage was the lies that Elma perceived, as seen in the dish washing scene one thanksgiving. And finally, after the divorce, he could be more open and honest with Jack, and share his feelings. Jack went to Mexico because he thought Ennis did not return his love.
Even Jack, the master communicator, was made mute in crucial moments and not able to tell Ennis what Ennis needed to hear. Like when Ennis asked Jack if he had a better idea. Instead of venting his frustration and anger, that would be the perfect moment to offer the ranch idea again, and explain about his family's ranch in lightening flat, not Texas. Ennis' affection are stable and eternal, and he could not bear to leave his children. Texas was not for him, but a family ranch, that's what Ennis would crave, being denied that from his childhood. If anything, I would love to see an alternate ending to the film, at this pivotal moment, with Ennis and Jack living happily ever after in Lightening Flat.
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This is indeed an interesting thread that generated a lot of insight into the depth of their relationship.
First of all, I agree with you that Ennis would blame himself, which is natural in any death, especially in so intimately related to their last meeting. I don't think Jack died because of Ennis, but Ennis might feel differently.
Secondly, I agree that Jack resigned to moving on not because he needed excitement from elsewhere, nor because he no long loves Ennis. As you said, Ennis told Jack at the last meeting that he can't take this any more. That this ride is over, he is down. Jack may be able to do the long distance love affair, but it's hurting Ennis, and Jack did not want to hurt Ennis, not even at the price of their meetings. It showed Jack's love is certainly sacrificial; he would do anything for Ennis, before Ennis asked him.
You say this beautifully, lancecowboy2007.
And Finally, I don't agree about taking risk. They journey that Ennis struggled with is not about risk anything. There is no risk to be in Jack's arms. The issue, IMO, is integrity. Ennis should have called off the engagement with Elma or at least postpone it. He counted on "lead us not into temptation, and deliver us from evil" to continue in a normal life. That was his first mistake, denying his true feelings. His second mistake was lying to Elma. I thought the sound track was a masterpiece. Just as Ennis told Elma his first lie about Jack, the guitar sounded a brief but dissonant chord that reverberated. Part of what destroyed the marriage was the lies that Elma perceived, as seen in the dish washing scene one thanksgiving. And finally, after the divorce, he could be more open and honest with Jack, and share his feelings. Jack went to Mexico because he thought Ennis did not return his love.
Even Jack, the master communicator, was made mute in crucial moments and not able to tell Ennis what Ennis needed to hear. Like when Ennis asked Jack if he had a better idea. Instead of venting his frustration and anger, that would be the perfect moment to offer the ranch idea again, and explain about his family's ranch in lightening flat, not Texas. Ennis' affection are stable and eternal, and he could not bear to leave his children. Texas was not for him, but a family ranch, that's what Ennis would crave, being denied that from his childhood. If anything, I would love to see an alternate ending to the film, at this pivotal moment, with Ennis and Jack living happily ever after in Lightening Flat.
I can see your point of view, especially on the issue of Ennis and integrity. Ennis is at times obessed with integrity, and perhaps this is the thread that brings him to the final terrible loss. It reminds of the way the gods punish mortals by the very traits on which they set the greatest store -- as in the Bacchae of Euripides, where Dionysos lead Pentheus to his doom.
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Very interesting exchanges here.
Personally, I think Jack understood Ennis enough not to blame him. In the end, I felt Jack was resigned to moving on, not because he had grown to hate Ennis, but because he realized that trying to move him only hurt Ennis all te more.
As far as Ennis is concerned, I have no doubt that he blamed himself to a great extent for Jack's death. It does not really matter if this is true or not -- Ennis felt some responsibility to Jack, especially in the light of his expereince with Earl and Rich.
If there is anything to blame on Ennis, it is not having seized the chance of a lifetime. Perhaps Jack was fated to die because of his willingness to take risks. IMO, Ennis should have taken that risk. Life is only worth living for certain things. To rject these is to ensure a living death.
Coming into everything late, lol, I finally have a little time to read and maybe post, but I got to know up front, do most of you believe the meeting/love affair was over after the last encounter and that Jack was murdered. Save me lots of frustration to understand where you guys are coming from up front. Thanks, jessi.
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Coming into everything late, lol, I finally have a little time to read and maybe post, but I got to know up front, do most of you believe the meeting/love affair was over after the last encounter and that Jack was murdered. Save me lots of frustration to understand where you guys are coming from up front. Thanks, jessi.
Hello jessi! :)
Truthfully, I go back and forth on this one. I admit that I am influenced by Gyllenhaal's comment in an interview where he said that Ennis was more faithful because Jack was at the point of moving on in the end. But it is really hard to say, no?
As to whether Jack was truly murdered, there is enough ambiguity here. The short story certainly does not say that this was true outright. In the mind of Ennis, at least, Jack was murdered. But was it murder in real life? This is an open issue. But I have talked with some people involved in film who said that they would not have shown the murder scene the way it was shown in the movie if they didn't want the audience to think that Jack was indeed murdered.
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I know the writers and ang lee all deny that but it seems that it went against what annie said. She never blinked, said it was an accident, graphically and chillingly pointed out how ennis heard that rim crack into bone and the sound it made rolling hollow away, then the murder very much being in his mind. He had to work at convincing himself that it happened that way, how else could he go on living. In the script it is written as a vision, not flashback, but many see it as a reality of the movie, never intended to be so in the book. why. why, well all I can come up with, the only reason I can get that ang lee would want to manipulate us to believing that is gays gotta pay. I've listened to the writers, talked to them even and asked this, I was told they never intended on swaying the audience like that. I assume then it was ang lee. It doesn't bother me that others see it as murder but it does that they were delibertly led by the movie to see that. Yeah, I'm strange I know. lol
jessi
Hello jessi! :)
Truthfully, I go back and forth on this one. I admit that I am influenced by Gyllenhaal's comment in an interview where he said that Ennis was more faithful because Jack was at the point of moving on in the end. But it is really hard to say, no?
As to whether Jack was truly murdered, there is enough ambiguity here. The short story certainly does not say that this was true outright. In the mind of Ennis, at least, Jack was murdered. But was it murder in real life? This is an open issue. But I have talked with some people involved in film who said that they would not have shown the murder scene the way it was shown in the movie if they didn't want the audience to think that Jack was indeed murdered.
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Coming into everything late, lol, I finally have a little time to read and maybe post, but I got to know up front, do most of you believe the meeting/love affair was over after the last encounter and that Jack was murdered. Save me lots of frustration to understand where you guys are coming from up front. Thanks, jessi.
I don't think it was over after that last meeting. I do believe that something died in Jack seeing Ennis break down and unleashing all of that frustration, but there is that whole nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved. Had Jack not died, I think he would have met up with Ennis but I think that the last meeting would have been a turning point one way or the other in that Jack would have forced Ennis's hand about the relationship. But that's just take on it.
I believe he was murdered. It was my first impression and I can't shake that. I want to believe that it was an accident because that would be a lot easier on me but I can't seem to make my mind go there. There is also the part in the SS where Ennis is at the Twist ranch and it says "So now he knew it was the tire iron". But as with everything that's subject to one's interpretation and is by no means a confirmation one way or the other. I kind of like the ambiguity because it puts us in Ennis's shoes not knowing the truth. Be it murder or an accident, at the end of the day- Jack is dead and that is what rips my heart to shreds. :\'(
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I don't think it was over after that last meeting. I do believe that something died in Jack seeing Ennis break down and unleashing all of that frustration, but there is that whole nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved. Had Jack not died, I think he would have met up with Ennis but I think that the last meeting would have been a turning n it.
point one way or the other in that Jack would have forced Ennis's hand about the relationship. But that's just take o
I believe he was murdered. It was my first impression and I can't shake that. I want to believe that it was an accident because that would be a lot easier on me but I can't seem to make my mind go there. There is also the part in the SS where Ennis is at the Twist ranch and it says "So now he knew it was the tire iron". But as with everything that's subject to one's interpretation and is by no means a confirmation one way or the other. I kind of like the ambiguity because it puts us in Ennis's shoes not knowing the truth. Be it murder or an accident, at the end of the day- Jack is dead and that is what rips my heart to shreds. :\'(
I believe, and she said, nothing much changed, went back nearly as it had been, so they would have met.
I do think when she said he knew she just meant that ennis now had become convinced that it was the tire iron. She's already said it was an accident and his first thought was how that accident sounded and felt, but he needed to believe it was murder and started convincing himself of that. Only he knew because that's what he had always had in his mind would happen.
What a great observation, the ambiguity that can put many into Ennis' shoes, not knowing. I'll think on it and hope that is why ang lee filmed it that way. Great post, thanks.
jessi
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I don't think it was over after that last meeting. I do believe that something died in Jack seeing Ennis break down and unleashing all of that frustration, but there is that whole nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved. Had Jack not died, I think he would have met up with Ennis but I think that the last meeting would have been a turning point one way or the other in that Jack would have forced Ennis's hand about the relationship. But that's just take on it.
I believe he was murdered. It was my first impression and I can't shake that. I want to believe that it was an accident because that would be a lot easier on me but I can't seem to make my mind go there. There is also the part in the SS where Ennis is at the Twist ranch and it says "So now he knew it was the tire iron". But as with everything that's subject to one's interpretation and is by no means a confirmation one way or the other. I kind of like the ambiguity because it puts us in Ennis's shoes not knowing the truth. Be it murder or an accident, at the end of the day- Jack is dead and that is what rips my heart to shreds. :\'(
I am with you, LuvJackNasty. Sometimes couples in a relationship grow apart or mature together. I think their last scene was a turning point, and it could have gone either way, with Ennis not being able to continue, as evident by his sitting alone, yet content, eating his apple pie. Ennis, we need to remember, grew up lonely and I feel that it is his natural state, when left alone. It is why Jack had such an impact on him. Jack on the other hand loved Ennis, and given half a hint of being together, always, would redline back all the way. If he received the card from Ennis to meet in November, he would be there. No doubt in my mind. And their meeting will be as passionate and loving as ever. And I think the conversation will eventually lead to, what are we going to do now. At this point, I believe Jack will propose again, and Ennis will now be free, materially and emotionally, to accept.
I am glad the movie left the cause of death ambiguous. Reality, as you said, is often uncertain. Dealing with uncertainty is just a way of life. We are often spoiled with artificial certainty, boundaries that serve no purpose. The ambiguity in this case, serves to highlight Ennis' emotional response much more than a certain murder or a definitive accident. In any case, as you said, it is not the cause, but the death, which is tragic, which caused so much pain in so many around the world. And yet, it is also the resolution of this death, through the sequence of Ennis' search for answers, for closure, that brought at least this one cowboy some peace. I am forever grateful to everyone in the making of the movie. You all have no idea what you have done.
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I believe, and she said, nothing much changed, went back nearly as it had been, so they would have met.
I do think when she said he knew she just meant that ennis now had become convinced that it was the tire iron. She's already said it was an accident and his first thought was how that accident sounded and felt, but he needed to believe it was murder and started convincing himself of that. Only he knew because that's what he had always had in his mind would happen.
What a great observation, the ambiguity that can put many into Ennis' shoes, not knowing. I'll think on it and hope that is why ang lee filmed it that way. Great post, thanks.
jessi
Here is the quote. Note the use of the word "almost":
“Jesus,” said Jack. “Ennis?” But before he was out of the truck, trying to guess if it was a heart attack or the overflow of an incendiary rage, Ennis was back on his feet, and somehow, as a coat hanger is straightened to open a locked car and then bent again to its original shape, they torqued things almost to where they had been, for what they’d said was no news. Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved.
This, together with the last sentance (Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved) can suggest either 2 things: stable or unstable equilibrium. To perturb a marble sitting in a bowl will bring that marble back to stable equilibrium, whereas to push a marble at the edge of a precipice will result in drastic change, no matter how small the push.
In other words, I think it was Proulx's intention to leave ALL possibilities open. That is a major part of the tug and pull of the short story -- indeed, that is what makes it so great. We can each reach our own conclusions, of course. The movie makers may have made their own, in the sense that they suggested cinematically that Jack was indeed murdered, although even the movie leaves some ambiguity intact.
I think that it is telling that Proulx raised no objections in the interpretation posed by the movie makers. In her essay, she notes that her main objection was the slight tampering of the time sequence in the Reunion scenes. Else, she did not voice any objection to how the murder was suggested cinematically.
This could mean that she herself perhaps agreed with the movie makers -- that perhaps it was indeed murder. But we shall never know, because I doubt that she would admit anything even if we asked her. She is wiser than to say this or that...