Author Topic: Should Ennis take Some of the Blame for Jack's Death?  (Read 30685 times)

Offline welshwitch

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Re: Should Ennis take Some of the Blame for Jack's Death?
« Reply #30 on: Sep 10, 2007, 05:45 AM »
Yes, tpe's comment reflects what I think. I also imagine that if anyone in Childress knew or suspected about Jack and Randall, and both would be known in the community and recognisable, the good ol' boys of the locality might well have decided to take the law into their own hands and get rid of the queer who was an outsider in that he wasn't Texan but only married into local wealth. I never assumed that he'd been cruising the back lanes; if indeed he was killed as Ennis sees it, I assumed it was by a gang looking for him when he was somewhere they could get him alone.

 *o) The things I don't know! We stopped in loads of those wayside places - to take pix of the road or the wild flowers ( you know, the ones planted after Ladybird Johnson's campaign) or just to have a drink and a break - had no idea of their more exotic aspects.

Offline tpe

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Re: Should Ennis take Some of the Blame for Jack's Death?
« Reply #31 on: Sep 11, 2007, 08:21 AM »
TPE....Thanks for the welcome, I love the dialog. I agree with you that Jack was oblivious to the risks that he was taking, while Ennis was very well aware of how vulnerable he was. Had Jack and Ennis lived in close proximity but not with each other, they could have continued a relationship that would have been fairly safe for them, whether they were in Texas or Wyoming. But, Jack took extraordinary risks in his "cruising". That is what made Jack vulnerable.
This seems also to be a current events topic with the arrest and implosion of Senator Craig, Idaho.Craig could probably been a discrete bisexual and continued his hypocritical career in the Senate without being publicly outed. But, like Jack he needed risky situations. Suppose Ennis and Jack had lived in the same county in Wyoming. Let's suppose they had continued their relationship meeting once a week instead of twice a year. Does anyone think that Jack would not have on the sly tried for a little action at a roadside park or a bar or a restroom somewhere? I think that he would have looked for some exciting risky sex, and either Ennis would have found out and bashed Jack, or Jack would have been bashed by a homophobe that he tried to pick up. 

Interesting insights here, brokeplex: about the nature of taking risks, especially relating to anonymous sex. 

I think that so long as Jack didn't feel that he had Ennis, he would continue to take such risks, as some kind of solace -- a source of some satisfaction to alleviate the frustration.

It is interesting that he did not fear Ennis or being found out by Ennis.  I guess he partly blamed Ennis for all of this...


brokeplex

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Re: Should Ennis take Some of the Blame for Jack's Death?
« Reply #32 on: Sep 16, 2007, 02:38 PM »
Interesting insights here, brokeplex: about the nature of taking risks, especially relating to anonymous sex. 

I think that so long as Jack didn't feel that he had Ennis, he would continue to take such risks, as some kind of solace -- a source of some satisfaction to alleviate the frustration.

It is interesting that he did not fear Ennis or being found out by Ennis.  I guess he partly blamed Ennis for all of this...


I think that Jack understood that Ennis was capable of violence. Did Jack consider that Ennis would ever become more violent than to give Jack a bloody nose or another black eye? Jack was probably confident that Ennis would not kill him.As was revealed in their final camping scene, Ennis had a jealous streak when it came to Jack, "those things I don't know could get you killed". I think that Ennis was truly jealous, but maybe also he was warning Jack that playing around in dangerous arenas could get Jack killed by the type of homophobes who killed Earl and Rich.

manhattangirl

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Re: Should Ennis take Some of the Blame for Jack's Death?
« Reply #33 on: Sep 17, 2007, 02:19 AM »
I think that Jack understood that Ennis was capable of violence. Did Jack consider that Ennis would ever become more violent than to give Jack a bloody nose or another black eye? Jack was probably confident that Ennis would not kill him.As was revealed in their final camping scene, Ennis had a jealous streak when it came to Jack, "those things I don't know could get you killed". I think that Ennis was truly jealous, but maybe also he was warning Jack that playing around in dangerous arenas could get Jack killed by the type of homophobes who killed Earl and Rich.

That's an interesting take,. I was always concerned that Ennis had almost a split personality when it came to his relationship with Jack.  His homophobic fear, and his need to be seen as "straight"  and his love and possessiveness of Jack, put Jack in that untenable position.    Ennis saw this albeit too late to do anything about it. 

Jack was out there in the world Ennis couldn't do any thing about that, and Jack wanted to be with him, and Ennis still wouldn't do anything about that.  Either the world would kill Jack or he would.  Jack had power and was powerless.  Ennis saw no one but Jack in his life, but not part of his life.

Ennis always saw their relationship through the prism of Earl and Rich.  Ennis couldn't get past that, no matter how hard Jack tried to bring him out of it. 

So Jack drove those miles for twenty year to be with Ennis, and drove places where his lonliness took him, and died on those roads, and Ennis fear of what fate might hold for one of them or for both was reality no matter how he saw Jack's death, the irony is so painful. 


Offline tpe

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Re: Should Ennis take Some of the Blame for Jack's Death?
« Reply #34 on: Sep 17, 2007, 07:04 AM »
I think that Jack understood that Ennis was capable of violence. Did Jack consider that Ennis would ever become more violent than to give Jack a bloody nose or another black eye? Jack was probably confident that Ennis would not kill him.As was revealed in their final camping scene, Ennis had a jealous streak when it came to Jack, "those things I don't know could get you killed". I think that Ennis was truly jealous, but maybe also he was warning Jack that playing around in dangerous arenas could get Jack killed by the type of homophobes who killed Earl and Rich.

brokeplex, these also reflect my point of view.  And your last comment echoes an earlier discussion, where some of us felt that Ennis's threat to Jack in the confrontation scene had a double significance -- exactly the same as what you say here.


Offline tpe

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Re: Should Ennis take Some of the Blame for Jack's Death?
« Reply #35 on: Sep 17, 2007, 07:07 AM »
That's an interesting take,. I was always concerned that Ennis had almost a split personality when it came to his relationship with Jack.  His homophobic fear, and his need to be seen as "straight"  and his love and possessiveness of Jack, put Jack in that untenable position.    Ennis saw this albeit too late to do anything about it. 

Yes, there was a definite struggle between opposing forces inside Ennis, as far as his feelings for Jack was concerned.  I think even with Jack's death, he must have been divided -- in the sense that he must have felt vindicated in his fears, and that he felt some responsibility for not having broken the bonds of his own fears.


manhattangirl

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Re: Should Ennis take Some of the Blame for Jack's Death?
« Reply #36 on: Sep 24, 2007, 09:59 PM »
Yes, there was a definite struggle between opposing forces inside Ennis, as far as his feelings for Jack was concerned.  I think even with Jack's death, he must have been divided -- in the sense that he must have felt vindicated in his fears, and that he felt some responsibility for not having broken the bonds of his own fears.

I've been feeling the same way on that.  I really don't think he'd come to terms with it the relationship even after Jacks death. 

The division within him is shown when he closes the door of the closet at the end of the film.  Everything that made him was behind that closet door. 

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Should Ennis take Some of the Blame for Jack's Death?
« Reply #37 on: Sep 25, 2007, 04:57 AM »
Yes, there was a definite struggle between opposing forces inside Ennis, as far as his feelings for Jack was concerned.  I think even with Jack's death, he must have been divided -- in the sense that he must have felt vindicated in his fears, and that he felt some responsibility for not having broken the bonds of his own fears.



 This is certainly right . In the sense only thinking if he'd only tried harder , only did this, only said that, but i think he did come to terms with the relationship after Jack's death. I don't believe he could help it. Jack leaving him such a powerful message in the shirts that Ennis was almost redeemed. I feel he found the depth of Jack's love,That Jack was not *playing* love all those years since "63" . He realized that Jack's love was real and now understood why Jack said and did all the things he did for 20 years. , then he swore to honor that which came before ,in honor of the lessons Jack taught him about their time together. Always and forever.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Should Ennis take Some of the Blame for Jack's Death?
« Reply #38 on: Sep 25, 2007, 11:09 AM »
Well said,aintfoolin.For me Ennis was closer to Jack after his death that during all his long-life relationship because he realised,in a very human reaction,the power and strenght of their love completely ,only when he couldn´t already learn from his mistakes,when he couldn´t recover what he had lost...And in this sense,he was guilty because he made Jack lost almost his reason for living and,with it,lose his foresight in taking risks.Because,as I think it was Tony who said-if not,sorry...-he previously had killed the joyful,dreamer and romantic Jack he had known in BBM and put the basis for that someone else kill him in literal way of speaking.
« Last Edit: Sep 25, 2007, 11:19 AM by myprivatejack »
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline tpe

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Re: Should Ennis take Some of the Blame for Jack's Death?
« Reply #39 on: Sep 25, 2007, 03:45 PM »
This is certainly right . In the sense only thinking if he'd only tried harder , only did this, only said that, but i think he did come to terms with the relationship after Jack's death. I don't believe he could help it. Jack leaving him such a powerful message in the shirts that Ennis was almost redeemed. I feel he found the depth of Jack's love,That Jack was not *playing* love all those years since "63" . He realized that Jack's love was real and now understood why Jack said and did all the things he did for 20 years. , then he swore to honor that which came before ,in honor of the lessons Jack taught him about their time together. Always and forever.

I echo myprivatejack: beautifully said, aintfoolin.  I remeber the final ironic sentence in the dream sequence that ends the ss.  Ennis certainly couldn't help it.  I do think there is redemption for him in the end, and the power of their love was instrumental in this realization.  But I also feel that with this realization remained some doubt and much suffering.  I think it is because of regret.  If Ennis were to blame for Jack's death, he certainly suffered enough because of it.


Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Should Ennis take Some of the Blame for Jack's Death?
« Reply #40 on: Sep 28, 2007, 05:28 AM »
 IMO he had to feel a level of responsibility for Jack's death , perhaps ashamed of himself for not being there to protect Jack from the vision of Jack's death he had in his mind. It was his fear that this would happen if they got careless.
 Had he been there with Jack, things may have turned out differently. It's very human for him, but devastating in a personal way. The story of Earl and Rich was somethig between just them. I suppose that Ennis found it probable and ironic at the same time.
He had to realize this before he came to terms with the relationship between he and Jack. I think he did that.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Should Ennis take Some of the Blame for Jack's Death?
« Reply #41 on: Sep 28, 2007, 09:34 AM »
I think that he must feel a kind of stupid impotence for having denied to Jack the possibility of fullfilling his dreams during so many years to avoid any of them have the same end that at the end Jack had.
It must be very exasperating for Ennis to live such a great negation of his deepest feelings to be right at the end.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline tpe

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Re: Should Ennis take Some of the Blame for Jack's Death?
« Reply #42 on: Sep 28, 2007, 10:55 AM »
From the final scenes, it would seem that Ennis fet that he was responsible.  Remorse was clearly written all over his face, especially in the last shot when he says "I swear."

And MPJ, I like the way you say it: "a great negation".  If Ennis were somehow responsible, it was more bacause of what he didn't do -- rather than what he did.




Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Should Ennis take Some of the Blame for Jack's Death?
« Reply #43 on: Sep 28, 2007, 11:31 AM »
Thanks,Thomas¡ :t) I suppose it´s like this phrase that says how much is better to complain for what one has done and it has resulted badly that to complain asking oneself what something has been if one has been bold enough to do it.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline welshwitch

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Re: Should Ennis take Some of the Blame for Jack's Death?
« Reply #44 on: Sep 28, 2007, 01:22 PM »
Sins of omission rather than sins of commission in Catholic thought?

Offline tpe

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Re: Should Ennis take Some of the Blame for Jack's Death?
« Reply #45 on: Sep 28, 2007, 02:47 PM »
Thanks MPJ and WW. 

WW, yes, I guess one would call them sins of omission.  But I wonder about MPJ's comment.  Fear certainly played a huge role in Ennis's inaction.  But I recall some other idea we discussed a long time back -- whether Ennis intentionally did not act because he felt it was the best way of protecting their love.


manhattangirl

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Re: Should Ennis take Some of the Blame for Jack's Death?
« Reply #46 on: Sep 29, 2007, 09:54 AM »
IMO he had to feel a level of responsibility for Jack's death , perhaps ashamed of himself for not being there to protect Jack from the vision of Jack's death he had in his mind. It was his fear that this would happen if they got careless.
 Had he been there with Jack, things may have turned out differently. It's very human for him, but devastating in a personal way. The story of Earl and Rich was somethig between just them. I suppose that Ennis found it probable and ironic at the same time.
He had to realize this before he came to terms with the relationship between he and Jack. I think he did that.
Thanks MPJ and WW. 

WW, yes, I guess one would call them sins of omission.  But I wonder about MPJ's comment.  Fear certainly played a huge role in Ennis's inaction.  But I recall some other idea we discussed a long time back -- whether Ennis intentionally did not act because he felt it was the best way of protecting their love.

I hope I'm making sense:

Isn't this Ennis MO in every aspect of his life?  From childhood to adulthood he followed the road that other's set out for him or the road that he thought others expected of him.   No one ever told him he had choices until Jack entered his life, this is when "Earl and Rich" comes into play, a story he would never have told anyone until his need for Jack emerges.  The lessons from that is what he believes in, and lived by.

The irony comes into play is when he loses Jack, if he kept Jack close to him, protecting him, loving him Jack would still be with him.  After all from "Earl and Rich" showed him what to look out for what the realities were, even if Jack's reality was living with him, and loving him.  Ennis reality would have been in protecting both of them.  If he only believed in his courage could have matched or exceeded his love.


 

Offline Tony

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Re: Should Ennis take Some of the Blame for Jack's Death?
« Reply #47 on: Sep 29, 2007, 12:07 PM »
      Have never heard anybody say this, so will go there, at some risk---isn't it possible that Ennis never really felt his love was returned, at
the level that he felt it, until AFTER the shirts? So how could he be guilty of anything?
      Most of the great love stories and those from real life, show that one great misery-doubt at being loved at the same level.  Please
remember, Ennis KNEW Jack was experienced, FNIT, by Jack's behavior, and yet Ennis did not want to be "queer".   Whether Ennis was
straight or repressed gay, that's not the point.   He only wanted Jack but could tell--Jack could do this with others.  In that context, as
he approached the tent, SNIT, he was taking a great risk with his loneliness and the love that had developed.
     And remember, when the season was cut short, Jack showed no visible regret they were to part ways.  It was Ennis who sat on that
hill, brooding.  So that when Jack becomes playful with the lasso, no wonder the tussle ends up bloody as there had to have been rage
in Ennis at Jack's lackadaisical attitude.
    And it was Ennis who puked his guts out as Jack drove off, still playing the time on that mountain as an extended one night stand.
And Ennis who waits nervously to see if Jack will show up, after getting the postcard.  Whatever Jack said or did that was romantic
and persistent, he had already given Ennis cause for doubt, which Ennis lived with, as best he could.
   At the parents home, notice the stoicism shown, when Jack's father refers to some other guy going to move there with Jack.  Ennis
has that understanding, weak smile, accepting that Jack had loved him, but also others.
   It is ONLY when Ennis finds the shirts that he knows his love HAD been returned--completely.  Otherwise-there was no discovery, no
epiphany, no reason to live alone, haunted, for the rest of his life.  Their love had been equal-they just failed to see that and had therefore
failed to prove it, to the other.
   Ennis ain't guilty.  Life is.

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Should Ennis take Some of the Blame for Jack's Death?
« Reply #48 on: Sep 29, 2007, 12:52 PM »
Wow, I had never once thought Ennis was to blame.

Responsibility is the murders and the murders alone. Not intolerance, not society, and definitely not Ennis. He was the victim, not once, but twice, first at the scene that his father forced him to watch at the tender age of nine, then at the tragic end of the love of his life.

Yes, Ennis was part of the tragedy that caused Jack to seek comfort in Mexico, and in the Texan ranch hand. But Ennis was NOT the cause of it, nor did he contributed to it.

Jack was drinking before he met Ennis, note the whiskey bottle that he always had with him, and which by the way, he used to seduce Ennis before their first night in the tent.

Jack may have proposed to Ennis about sharing a ranch together, and for all we know, he may have done so repeatedly for the next twenty years. But am I the only one who noticed that Ennis mentioned in their last meeting that Jack had other ideas once. Hoping, perhaps, for Jack to take it up again. Yet, Jack went on a tirade, justifiably or not, about he had it ONCE, not realizing, that Ennis with his back turned, was crying, dying slowing inside, thinking that Jack no longer loved him, seeking love elsewhere, in Mexico. I noticed how upset Ennis got at Jack's father mentioned of Jack's idea of the two of them together in his ranch, then that spring, changed the tune.

The tragedy was the broke down in communication, not anyone's fault.

The love that dared not speak its name, made two soul-mates mute.

Ennis was the victim, not the blame.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline Tony

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Re: Should Ennis take Some of the Blame for Jack's Death?
« Reply #49 on: Sep 29, 2007, 06:17 PM »
       Thanks, Lancecowboy----was trying to say what you did say---breakdown in communication.  Seems strange that that could
occur when they had been so intimate, but whether the code of the west, not talking much, or the fears that can happen in great loves,
there was a failure of some kind, otherwise Ennis would never have had the great trauma of finding proof he was loved--the shirts.
   There never would have been that scene, has Ennis known, the love went all the way back.  The secret of the shirts was information
Jack somehow could not convey.  "Brokeback got us good."?  Not strong enough. "Sometimes I wish it could be like this, always..."?
Still not there.  "Sometimes, I miss you so much I can hardly stand it.."?  Almost there.  "I have loved you more than you could ever know..."
That he kept as a secret.  In the closet.  They managed to come out of the closet to have sex.  They never got out of the closet with
the enduring depth of their love, each for the other.  And with Jack that is literally true.  Not  even in the actual closet, but behind it.
     They did the best they could and, again---Ennis was not to blame.  I agree entirely, he was as much a victim of Jack's death as
Jack, himself.

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Should Ennis take Some of the Blame for Jack's Death?
« Reply #50 on: Sep 30, 2007, 03:03 AM »
Well said, Tony. I was initially mystified by Ennis' reaction finding the two shirts. I had not been watching Ennis' face as much during previous viewing, but paid special attention last night for some reason, probably because I was no longer distracted by the many detail elements that filled the screen. Then last night, while watching the movie again for the umpteenth time, I broke down sobbing more intensely than ever during the the scenes when Jack's father explained about Jack's wish to have Ennis help him in the family farm, and the change of tune that spring. The deep sobbing was unusual because all the crying previously had been nothing more than a river of tears. Nothing audible. But this time, it was like I had never cried before. And then the sobbing intensified even more, and I could hardly see the screen in the scene when I noticed the expression of shock in Ennis' face as he found the two shirts. I had read about this scene, and watched the movie many times before, but the emotional resonance that Heath conveyed in a split second, reaching for the shirts, almost in slow motion, hit something deep within me that I did not know was there, the wish to have expressed my love more simply, unashamedly, and directly to him before I lost him.

The tragic story ran deep, not only love lost, but also the lost opportunity for real happiness, "like this...always" not only in the film, but for everyone who has his or her own Brokeback. For us, the words that Jack used should have been enough to tell Ennis, as you quoted so poignantly.
"Brokeback got us good."?  Not strong enough. "Sometimes I wish it could be like this, always..."? Still not there.  "Sometimes, I miss you so much I can hardly stand it.."?
But instead, he heard only the famous line in their last meeting, "I wish I knew how to quit you." as meaning that Jack no longer wanted to be with him. I had never liked that line, and feel sad when people use it in jest. To me, it is the saddest line in the whole movie. It was also the line that triggered the sobbing breakdown in Ennis, not unlike my own last night.

Sigh...

The relief came with Ennis in the trailer, asking Elma Jr if Kurt loves her. Finally, the man who shut out love, understood love. I think it was also the reason the Cassie character was introduced into the movie. "Girls don't fall in love with fun..."

Others said they felt the closing scene did not give them closure in the movie.

Seeing Ennis content with his loneliness, with his memories of Brokeback mountain and the love of his life, with his committed devotion to a love lost, I also felt content with my loneliness, and my memories.

This movie is cathartic in many ways, and this forum has been a blessing to allow me to put my thoughts and feelings into words, in the presence of a warm, accepting, supportive community of kindred spirit.

Thank you all for being there.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline lightnin flat

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Re: Should Ennis take Some of the Blame for Jack's Death?
« Reply #51 on: Sep 30, 2007, 05:00 AM »
 
   I dont think ennis should take the blame for jack,s death jack was responsible for his own actions but i do think ennis probaly feels partly responsible perhaps thinking if we were together this might not of happened
 because jack possibly wouldnt have been in that place at that time.   
    I do agree wih brokeplex and i did mention this in another thread that i didnt think jack would stay faithful to ennis, i think jack was a chancer and a risk taker and i do believe he would of looked for ecxitement 
 elsewere not on a permanent basis because he only wanted ennis permanently .   
    I also think if they lived in close proximity to each other or actualy lived together that would,nt of kept jack on the straight and narrow even though ennis was the love of his life and to be with ennis was his dream come true but somehow i have my doubts. It looks like jack took his chances and paid the ultimate price. but jack  %)
if time were not a moving thing if i could make it stay this hour of love we share would allways be
there would be no coming days to shine a morning  light make us realise our night is over.

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Should Ennis take Some of the Blame for Jack's Death?
« Reply #52 on: Sep 30, 2007, 05:18 AM »
I respectfully disagree with your character assessment of Jack.

He was a responsible and loving father to his son, who also respected him. He was faithful except the one incident that we know of in Mexico, after he was rejected by Ennis when the divorce came through, but Ennis found other reasons not to be with him. He was depressed, dejected, almost destroyed.

We don't know for certain that he would be unfaithful to Ennis if they were, say, married.

I think only unhappy spouses are unfaithful. Then again, I can be naive.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline lightnin flat

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Re: Should Ennis take Some of the Blame for Jack's Death?
« Reply #53 on: Sep 30, 2007, 05:41 AM »
I respectfully disagree with your character assessment of Jack.

He was a responsible and loving father to his son, who also respected him. He was faithful except the one incident that we know of in Mexico, after he was rejected by Ennis when the divorce came through, but Ennis found other reasons not to be with him. He was depressed, dejected, almost destroyed.

We don't know for certain that he would be unfaithful to Ennis if they were, say, married.

I think only unhappy spouses are unfaithful. Then again, I can be naive.


      You are right we dont know for sure  but that is just the way i see jack. i agree he was a responsible father that showed when he said to laureen about ringing the school about getting bobby a tutor because she didnt seem bothered.And yes when jack went to mexico it was only because he was more or less turned away by ennis but i just have a nagging doubt in my mind. On the other hand i dont think ennis would of been unfaithful to jack for one minute.
if time were not a moving thing if i could make it stay this hour of love we share would allways be
there would be no coming days to shine a morning  light make us realise our night is over.

manhattangirl

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Re: Should Ennis take Some of the Blame for Jack's Death?
« Reply #54 on: Sep 30, 2007, 08:58 AM »
"I'm not you", that is was the most honest thing that Jack said to Ennis.  He was not him, and  was  not suppose to be.  Jack was who he was, and the reason Ennis loved him. 

This is a man who for twenty years loved Ennis, and repeatedly went back to him.  Why?  For what reason?  Sex? No it was so much more than that.  He believed in Ennis, He believed in what they had was worth all the pain he himself endured because of it. 

No matter how much Ennis refused him, even to the point of cruelty, (remember the comment  Ennis gives Jack about moving to Texas),  and how he sent Jack away, when he was divorced, and it was Ennis himself who tells Jack, didn't he think Jack would "redline"  back to him?  And through it all Jack always returned to him.    

We praise Ennis almost to sainthood for faithfulness, but not seeing how damaged this man soul was and how Jack made it alright for him to be who he was, and we still condemn Jack for being what? Being human.  The aspect of Jack's life was something Ennis couldn't deal with, or understand, but still he would not release Jack. 

Jack's love is equal to that of Ennis.   Not only did Ennis find that out in Jack's room, but he showed Ennis what love was.   Something he tried to tell him all those years he was with him. 

  Just my thoughts.

manhattangirl

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Re: Should Ennis take Some of the Blame for Jack's Death?
« Reply #55 on: Sep 30, 2007, 11:37 AM »
Eh, I beg to differ.  All through the BBM fandom, it has always been Ennis who's condemned.

I agree with lancecowboy, I don't think Ennis should be blamed for Jack's death.  If you can accept Jack's statement of "I'm not you" to Ennis, you should also accept that Ennis is not Jack, you cannot expect Ennis to act the same way as Jack.  They are both victim of the intolerance of the society; even now there is still a long way for homosexuality to be fully embraced by the society.

IMO:
We all know that Ennis was definitely not Jack.  We got that idea with "I'll stick with beans", and Jack said "I won't".   The whole relationship was conducted within Ennis's comfort zone, out in the middle of nowwhere.  And Jack returned there for years to be with him.  Their perspectives were indeed different.  Jack wanted more than Ennis was able to give him, for Jack, he wanted to give Ennis more than what he was able to handle. 

We know and have experience with society feelings about homosexuality, and believe me I know.    Its' the war going on within  this relationship and within Ennis himself.   And how it played out in their lives, and their love.   

Ennis needed proof of love from Jack, he wasn't that sure.  I'm wrong?

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Should Ennis take Some of the Blame for Jack's Death?
« Reply #56 on: Sep 30, 2007, 12:09 PM »
Wow, I didn't know anyone condemned Ennis in BBM fandom. I mean, I so identified with him that I was totally nonjudgmental. Even Jack, who I adore, but cannot identify with, was human as Manhattengirl said. They have their character flaws, and they are unique and special because of them. They wouldn't be soul-mates if they weren't uniquely the way they were.

I appreciate your observation, too, that the entire relationship was conducted in Ennis' comfort zone. That Jack was the one who made the most effort in the relationship. Ennis blamed Jack in their last meeting because he had to quit jobs in their twenty years together, and he probably got a bad rep in that small town for the queer things that people probably talked about behind his back. Ennis sacrificed a lot for the love of his life, but did not DO much. Jack did all the work in the relationship, just as I suspect Ennis did all the cowboy stuff when they got together, since he was the better cowboy.

I am not convinced that Jack would be unfaithful to Ennis when they are a couple. The fact that Jack did not have much of a relationship with Laureen, while Ennis continued to have sex with Elma showed that if anything, Ennis was the bisexual while Jack was the gay one. In any case, they both loved and needed each other, and I would be very surprised if they would stray with anyone when they are a couple.

By the way, I didn't like Randall, the Texan neighbor rancher, and have wondered if he was the one who betrayed Jack, and got him killed. The good ol' boy probably got jealous of Jack's talking about Brokeback Mountain and the time spent with Ennis. It's conceivable. Jack was romantic enough to steal Ennis' shirt in their first summer, and kept them in his closet for twenty years. I can't picture him with anyone else. The scene with Jimbo the clown began with Jimbo entering the bar where Jack was all alone brooding over a beer, when Jimbo walked in wearing a "white" cowboy hat, looking like Ennis from behind. Even the Mexican guy in the alley resembled Ennis to some degree. And the quiet Texan must have reminded Jack of the quiet Ennis (even in spite of the beard). Jack was not looking to stray for more excitement, but fulfillment, to be with Ennis even by proxy). Jack was doing what Ennis did with Elma, when she brought up his lonely childhood to get him to move to Riverton for the girls (really for herself). Ennis flipped Elma on her stomach and took her the way he did it with Jack. Again, it tells me that Ennis was the bisexual to Jack's being more gay.

Wow, this forum is great, but I am spending so much time here!

I can see why you all call it home!

 $) ;D
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline tpe

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Re: Should Ennis take Some of the Blame for Jack's Death?
« Reply #57 on: Oct 01, 2007, 08:23 AM »
I think only unhappy spouses are unfaithful. Then again, I can be naive.

I think this gives us a lot of insight into Jack's infidelity.  I had always thought that had he had Ennis, he would have been faithful.


Offline tpe

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Re: Should Ennis take Some of the Blame for Jack's Death?
« Reply #58 on: Oct 01, 2007, 08:49 AM »
Very interesting exchanges here.

Personally, I think Jack understood Ennis enough not to blame him.  In the end, I felt Jack was resigned to moving on, not because he had grown to hate Ennis, but because he realized that trying to move him only hurt Ennis all te more. 

As far as Ennis is concerned, I have no doubt that he blamed himself to a great extent for Jack's death.  It does not really matter if this is true or not -- Ennis felt some responsibility to Jack, especially in the light of his expereince with Earl and Rich.

If there is anything to blame on Ennis, it is not having seized the chance of a lifetime.  Perhaps Jack was fated to die because of his willingness to take risks.  IMO, Ennis should have taken that risk.  Life is only worth living for certain things.  To rject these is to ensure a living death.


Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Should Ennis take Some of the Blame for Jack's Death?
« Reply #59 on: Oct 01, 2007, 10:20 AM »
Very interesting exchanges here.

Personally, I think Jack understood Ennis enough not to blame him.  In the end, I felt Jack was resigned to moving on, not because he had grown to hate Ennis, but because he realized that trying to move him only hurt Ennis all te more. 

As far as Ennis is concerned, I have no doubt that he blamed himself to a great extent for Jack's death.  It does not really matter if this is true or not -- Ennis felt some responsibility to Jack, especially in the light of his expereince with Earl and Rich.

If there is anything to blame on Ennis, it is not having seized the chance of a lifetime.  Perhaps Jack was fated to die because of his willingness to take risks.  IMO, Ennis should have taken that risk.  Life is only worth living for certain things.  To rject these is to ensure a living death.
This is indeed an interesting thread that generated a lot of insight into the depth of their relationship.

First of all, I agree with you that Ennis would blame himself, which is natural in any death, especially in so intimately related to their last meeting.  I don't think Jack died because of Ennis, but Ennis might feel differently.

Secondly, I agree that Jack resigned to moving on not because he needed excitement from elsewhere, nor because he no long loves Ennis. As you said, Ennis told Jack at the last meeting that he can't take this any more. That this ride is over, he is down. Jack may be able to do the long distance love affair, but it's hurting Ennis, and Jack did not want to hurt Ennis, not even at the price of their meetings. It showed Jack's love is certainly sacrificial; he would do anything for Ennis, before Ennis asked him.

And Finally, I don't agree about taking risk. They journey that Ennis struggled with is not about risk anything. There is no risk to be in Jack's arms. The issue, IMO, is integrity. Ennis should have called off the engagement with Elma or at least postpone it. He counted on "lead us not into temptation, and deliver us from evil" to continue in a normal life. That was his first mistake, denying his true feelings. His second mistake was lying to Elma. I thought the sound track was a masterpiece. Just as Ennis told Elma his first lie about Jack, the guitar sounded a brief but dissonant chord that reverberated. Part of what destroyed the marriage was the lies that Elma perceived, as seen in the dish washing scene one thanksgiving. And finally, after the divorce, he could be more open and honest with Jack, and share his feelings. Jack went to Mexico because he thought Ennis did not return his love.

Even Jack, the master communicator, was made mute in crucial moments and not able to tell Ennis what Ennis needed to hear. Like when Ennis asked Jack if he had a better idea. Instead of venting his frustration and anger, that would be the perfect moment to offer the ranch idea again, and explain about his family's ranch in lightening flat, not Texas. Ennis' affection are stable and eternal, and he could not bear to leave his children. Texas was not for him, but a family ranch, that's what Ennis would crave, being denied that from his childhood. If anything, I would love to see an alternate ending to the film, at this pivotal moment, with Ennis and Jack living happily ever after in Lightening Flat.

 
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.