Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: gjz24 on Jan 27, 2006, 12:33 PM
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Dose anybody think about why Mr. Ang Lee put this scene after Ennis and Jack first encunter?
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I think it symbolizes:
1. The loss of Ennis' innocence as represented by the lamb.
2. The concequences of Ennis' actions, ie, his love for Jack resulted in the death of something that he was to care for, perhaps further reinforcing his fears.
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Wow, I just realized, from a PBS educational documentary, that in prisons, a sexual predator is called a "wolf".
The wolf killed the sheep. The dog is standing guard. The wolf that was killed had "balls the size of apples." A wolf and a dog are similar (canines) yes disimilar (enemy/friend, unlawful/lawful, thief/servant). Gay and straight sex is similar yet dissimilar, along the same criteria, in the eyes of society.
Some 15 years ago, or more, I watched a 60-minutes/20-20 (cant remember which) type expose, of gay men soliciting male prostitutes, filmed under cover.
The term for the male prostitute was "a chicken", which is not a sheep, admittedly, but it is this same imagery which fits in with wolves as predators.
Criminals in the street, seeking drug money, refer to their victims as "prey".
Yet, at the 4th of July fireworks display, the two "Hells angels" were certainly predatory heterosexuals.
I vividly remember, in the PBS documentary on prison "wolves", and interview with one sexual predator, who had a pattern of beating heterosexual prisoners into submission, until they would perform upon him. He described what he did to one fellow prisoner, who finally cried, but in the end, broken, performed as the wolf wished. The "wolf" explained that all of his childhood was miserable. He never received any love, or birthday parties, or presents, so, therefore, why should anyone else be happy or have it easy.
All this talk of images of death reminds me of Thomas Mann's Death in Venice
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Dose anybody think about why Mr. Ang Lee put this scene after Ennis and Jack fist encunter?
Interesting that you ask this! ;)
I actually call this scene the 'ET IN ARCADIA EGO' scene, as it is supposed to be a prefigurement of what is to come. It is probably the strongest classical allusion in the entire film.
Recall that the context of ET IN ARCADIA EGO is the personification of DEATH reminding the Arcadian shepherds that he is also present in Arcadia. The translation is of course: AND I (i.e., Death) AM ALSO IN ARCADIA. The phrase is therefore a MEMENTO MORI equivalent to 'Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die.'
With this background, I immediately interpreted the dead sheep scene in the movie as a reminder that death is not far off, even in the midst of love. This scene is introduced precisely at Ennis' most vulnerable point: right after he had just had sex with Jack for the first time. The conflicting emotions you see in Ledger's face in this scene projects the confusion and guilt in Ennis at this critical stage of the stay at Brokeback Mountain.
Lastly, observe that the music that accompanies this scene is the DEATH music that you hear only after Jack had died. This is the music played when Ennis sees the returned postcard with DECEASED stamped on it. It is also the music played when Ennis discovers the 2 shirts during his visit to Jack's parents. It points us back to the 'vision of dead sheep' during that first summer on Brokeback Mountain, when Ennis should have realized that life is temporary and impermanent, and he should have 'seized the day'. Ennis did not heed this MEMENTO MORI. Had he seen its significance, he would have loved Jack more fully, knowing well that life is nothing but a 'floating bridge of dreams.'
CARPE DIEM.
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TPE:
You offer amazing insight into what I thought was simply a cause and effect whereby Ennis and Jack's actions resulted in what Aguirre didn't want to happen...the wolves getting to the sheep. All of you who have this depth of literary talent knew immediately what Mr. Lee was trying to create. Grateful for the lesson in how to dig deeper into what is being captured. I'm going to try and see this film for the 3rd time this weekend and so this should help me to pick up some of these symbolic nuances that escaped me the first two times.
BTW, (I know this probably fits into another thread), but did anyone see Gyllenhaal's interview with Leno (replayed again last night)?? I still think he was a little on edge with Leno and didn't spend nearly enough time promoting the film. Thank God for the Golden Globes which put much more momentum behind this classic!
stationbbm
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Thanks stationbbm for the kind words. I think we should all thank gjz24 for the intuition that there is something more to this scene.
Yes, I was actually quite irritated with Leno for spending half the time discussing the cooking channel (although I do love Italian cooking!) Leno probably thought that he was doing Gyllenhaal a service by making him feel comfortable first before tackling the main issue.
I do love one thing that Gyllenhaal said: he said [let me paraphrase] that 'Brokeback Mountain' was the most beautiful love story he had ever read. I was astonished and so happy to hear this coming directly from him.
I think Leno learned a bit from this interview and he was vastly better when it was Ledger's turn to be the guest.
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In the short story Proulx says, that after their starting having sex they
knew how the summer would go, "sheep be damned"- so we can read what you want into that. I did think in the movie they tried
to say they did try to do their jobs, but it was "nature" that intruded, like with the hail storm etc (she also has hail in the background
during the motel scene) was when Ennis stayed and the sheep really got mixed up, but note Ennis holds up a hugh piece of ice like saying "I could get hurt audience, I can't go up there, it isn't JUST that I want to be with Jack"
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I agree with it being the stronger classycal metaphor of the movie. I immediately connected it to the death of Jack - as the ultimate consequence of what happened the night before. Ang really went "Greek Tragedy" full throttle in this.
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"Lastly, observe that the music that accompanies this scene is the DEATH music that you hear only after Jack had died. This is the music played when Ennis sees the returned postcard with DECEASED stamped on it. "
Wow! Just another example of how this film stands up to intricate study. I have also wondered about this scene. I interpreted the dead sheep as a death of the simplicity of life without their complicated love. It also shows that already, there are damaging reprocussions of being together. Loving each other is already reeking havoc.
On a more logistical note: Was the purpose of propping the dead sheep up to attract the hyena or wolf so he could kill it? This is probably a "no duh" note - but I'd love confirmation of this.
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Isn't a dead coyote fur/skin on a pole we see in the next scene - I've always wondered about that.
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"Lastly, observe that the music that accompanies this scene is the DEATH music that you hear only after Jack had died. This is the music played when Ennis sees the returned postcard with DECEASED stamped on it. "
Wow! Just another example of how this film stands up to intricate study. I have also wondered about this scene. I interpreted the dead sheep as a death of the simplicity of life without their complicated love. It also shows that already, there are damaging reprocussions of being together. Loving each other is already reeking havoc.
On a more logistical note: Was the purpose of propping the dead sheep up to attract the hyena or wolf so he could kill it? This is probably a "no duh" note - but I'd love confirmation of this.
kcristob, you were reading my mind. I was thinking of adding a comment about the skin. The skin is actually the skin of a dead cayote -- presumably the cayote that Ennis mentioned to Jack, or some other cayote he killed (the killler of the sheep?).
On face value, it is a way to frighten future cayotes off the herd of sheep. The smell of the skin from the dead cayote would have been a sufficiently good repellent. In a deeper sense, I interpreted this at Ennis not heeding the warning -- standing up to the face of death and declaring that he is not afraid.
I might as well add another important thing and not wait for someone to point it out. In her essay that accompanies the screenplay, Proulx said that Wyoming is full of DEAD ANIMALS (i.e., carcasses). She gives an extended and highly amusing account of how a prospective director and producer for Brokeback in the 1990s visiting Wyoming and ended up getting all scared and disturbed by all the dead animals they encountered. For those of you who have the screenplay, do check it out.
That Proulx dwells on the subject of dead animals in her essay tells us that she considered this as an integral part of Wyoming life and landscape. This view must have been sufficient to suggest to Ang Lee that he should at least include a scene with a dead animal. And I believe Proulx acknowledged this authentic gesture.
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I agree with it being the stronger classycal metaphor of the movie. I immediately connected it to the death of Jack - as the ultimate consequence of what happened the night before. Ang really went "Greek Tragedy" full throttle in this.
jakeofrome, yes, you said it unvarnished: to me, it was Jack's death that was being prefigured.
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Thanks for all explanations. Well, I didnot think that far when I watched the movie, I just felt depressed and confused. Ang may wanna tell more form here, but when I first viewed that, I cannot felt that deep, I just felt very sad and heavy. I still felt uncomfortable second time watching that scene. Actually I do not like this scene here. It looks like misleading. My lady friend(she is straight) said after seeing this scene, she felt Ennis was scared and regret for having sex with Jack. and this impresion made her have the same feeling when she saw the alley scene (She never saw the book before).
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Isn't a dead coyote fur/skin on a pole we see in the next scene - I've always wondered about that.
Yes, The boys have been collecting and skinning the coyotes they have killed so they have proof they are doing their jobs. Plus the skins are worth money down off the mountain, if they haven't been too shot up.
Actually the dead sheep scene was set up from the beginning----when Joe tells them what he wants and why---too much predator loss---force of nature. What actually surprised me was there was only 1. Usually if coyotes are going to hunt, you will lose a dozen or better in a night.
I think it was shown because they needed to set up the consequences of Ennis' guilt--he was with Jack and not the sheep, one of the sheep died, and it is his responsibility.
He also didn't go up in time, and got caught down with Jack for the hail storm and the sheep got mixed, another consequence of paying attention to something other than your job.
Also gives Joe A. reasons not to hire Jack and get him on his way to TX.
I see real nature at work, just like the force of nature that brought them together, and Ennis has too much fear based on reality to go forward-----and the dead sheep reinforces in Ennis' mind that this is not right for them, and makes him fight their relationship even more----but forces of nature, don't step aside so he can't give it up either.
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Something I didn't quite understand about that scene.
Jack said "See you for supper" when Ennis rode off to the sheeps.
He sees a sheep maimed... Quite gross...
Then the next scene we see Jack laying watching over the sheeps and they were discussing how that night was a one-off.
"I aint queer." "Me neither."
Hmm, I thought Ennis is supposed to come down for supper and besides isn't the herder communting four hours a day?? ???
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I think the commuting was four hours in total per day:
herd - breakfast in camp
camp - herd
herd - lunch
camp - herd
herd - supper
camp - herd
So it might only have taken 30-45 minutes getting up there and often both of them are by the herd. Maybe Jack couldn´t stand being down there until supper?
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This thread is related to the old one discussing the dead sheep. I will combine this with the older thread. Please feel free to continue the discussions, as this one touches on other related points. :)
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Something I didn't quite understand about that scene.
Jack said "See you for supper" when Ennis rode off to the sheeps.
He sees a sheep maimed... Quite gross...
Then the next scene we see Jack laying watching over the sheeps and they were discussing how that night was a one-off.
"I aint queer." "Me neither."
Hmm, I thought Ennis is supposed to come down for supper and besides isn't the herder communting four hours a day?? ???
As you see from the above posts, I believe that the sequence of scenes that surround the 'dead sheep' scene is a prefigurement of Jack's death.
As for Jack being with Ennis with the woolies, I assumed that Jack decided to go to Ennis because he was probably anxious as to the state their relationship/friendship after the first night of sex. In a sense, Jack wanted to be assured that Ennis would not shun him in a fit of post-coital regret.
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Thank you for merging the thread. :)
And big thanks for reading into the scenes.
I always believe the scenes are tight, integral and related.
When Jack was leading Ennis' hand to his ~hooha~ ;D ,
I was screaming, "Slut Alert Slut Alert, Jake is a Certified Slut!" in jest :P
Obviously he had some "experience" and I believe Ennis is probably not the first one.
But I thought Jack hit jackpot with Ennis, given that Ennis hasn't beaten the shit out of him.
Probably that's why Jack decided to latch onto Ennis at that "watching over the sheeps" scene.
I am even surprised that Jack and Ennis appeared relaxed denying themselves being queer despite not doing their jobs... :-\
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Thank you for merging the thread. :)
And big thanks for reading into the scenes.
I always believe the scenes are tight, integral and related.
When Jack was leading Ennis' hand to his ~hooha~ ;D ,
I was screaming, "Slut Alert Slut Alert, Jake is a Certified Slut!" in jest :P
Obviously he had some "experience" and I believe Ennis is probably not the first one.
But I thought Jack hit jackpot with Ennis, given that Ennis hasn't beaten the shit out of him.
Probably that's why Jack decided to latch onto Ennis at that "watching over the sheeps" scene.
I am even surprised that Jack and Ennis appeared relaxed denying themselves being queer despite not doing their jobs... :-\
I agree! That part of the first tent scene was so intense. For some time, you would not know if Ennis would hit Jack or kiss him -- Ledger was magnificent here, showing both an excess of desire together with a look of confusion/revulsion. Ennis ended up not doing either (i.e., hitting jack or kissing Jack) -- he just went straight to the point, shall we say...
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tpe: What I couldn't understand was that Ennis being the strong slient type can crumble under the knees of Jack!
I mean sure Ennis did... ehm.. "brokeback" Jack, but scene after scene, it is Jack who has to comfort Ennis, holding Ennis and that motel scene, I am not sure who "brokeback" who? Wasn't Ennis the stud duck?? ???
I know sex isn't the point here but just an interesting note!
Besides that endearing dead sheep scene, there's another that lover's bicker scene by the river where they were washing plates and Jack suggested Texas... I understood why Jack suggested Texas, so that he can be close to Ennis instead of driving 14 hours just to get to Riverton but Ennis wants to stay close to his girls... What's so strange was that Ennis could open up in such a way that I was amazed he could string long and complete sentences that you normally wouldn't hear from him... and it ended with that endearing, "That's real smart, that Jack !@#$ Twist!", chasing the blue pot at the same time. :-\
I thought that was funny :D .... I mean how often do you hear bitchin couples frustrate each other for the spite of it simply because they still love each other?
I felt if Ennis would give himself and Jack a chance, he wouldn't be as downcast and appear "stupid" as he looks.
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tpe: What I couldn't understand was that Ennis being the strong slient type can crumble under the knees of Jack!
I mean sure Ennis did... ehm.. "brokeback" Jack, but scene after scene, it is Jack who has to comfort Ennis, holding Ennis and that motel scene, I am not sure who "brokeback" who? Wasn't Ennis the stud duck?? ???
I know sex isn't the point here but just an interesting note!
Besides that endearing dead sheep scene, there's another that lover's bicker scene by the river where they were washing plates and Jack suggested Texas... I understood why Jack suggested Texas, so that he can be close to Ennis instead of driving 14 hours just to get to Riverton but Ennis wants to stay close to his girls... What's so strange was that Ennis could open up in such a way that I was amazed he could string long and complete sentences that you normally wouldn't hear from him... and it ended with that endearing, "That's real smart, that Jack !@#$ Twist!", chasing the blue pot at the same time. :-\
I thought that was funny :D .... I mean how often do you hear bitchin couples frustrate each other for the spite of it simply because they still love each other?
I felt if Ennis would give himself and Jack a chance, he wouldn't be as downcast and appear "stupid" as he looks.
I thought Ennis was the one who was the dominant partner in sex, but Jack was clearly the dominant partner in emotional matters.
Gyllenhaal discussed in several interviews (Oprah's being one of them) that it is not very meaningful to determine which one -- Ennis or Jack -- was the 'man' and which one was the 'woman'. I sort of agree with him here, and as you said, we are never entirely sure whether Ennis always played the dominant role sexually.
The bickerring scene was amusing and touching at the same time. You see Ennis slightly unhinged -- presumably originating from the Thanksgiving revelation coming from Alma. Jack thought he saw an openning, but was sadly mistaken! :(
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I guess that's the beauty of Jack... keep putting out ideas and hopefully Ennis would accept it one day over 20 years but sadly Ennis just couldn't bring himself to accept that. Maybe if Jack were to say, we would arm ourselves with C4, hand grenades or IEDs, AK47, hand-made dirty bombs (god, sounds like they are living in the sand-pit in that part of the world), Ennis would probably feel a lot safer and we would kill less trees because of less tears due to the happy ending?? :-\
Can't believe Jack is a salesman, "the best salesman we've got and the only one in fact"... The only sale he just couldn't make was Ennis.
As for sex-wise... I thought Jack had a penile problem in the book and "airplane flying in the motel"? Thus I presume Ennis was doing all the work but instead of being relaxed happy and all smokin', Jack was the one who had all the fun! Ennis looked all guilty, worried, scared... ???
But then again, the look on Ennis' face the morning-after they had their first screw in the tent... I wondered what he was thinking about. Was it, "Gee what did I do last night?" Or "Hell, I screwed a guy and he is sleeping next to me! Jesus! But what the hell!" :D
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I guess that's the beauty of Jack... keep putting out ideas and hopefully Ennis would accept it one day over 20 years but sadly Ennis just couldn't bring himself to accept that.
I'm get a bit emotional reading your above observation.
There is a Whitman poem (from Leaves of Grass) that best sums up Jack as you describe it:
A noiseless, patient spider,
I mark’d, where, on a little promontory, it stood, isolated;
Mark’d how, to explore the vacant, vast surrounding,
It launch’d forth filament, filament, filament, out of itself;
Ever unreeling them—ever tirelessly speeding them.
And you, O my Soul, where you stand,
Surrounded, surrounded, in measureless oceans of space,
Ceaselessly musing, venturing, throwing,—seeking the spheres, to connect them;
Till the bridge you will need, be form’d—till the ductile anchor hold;
Till the gossamer thread you fling, catch somewhere, O my Soul.
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tpe: Thank you for the poem. It is very beautiful.
My mum used to say to me that I have a lot of ideas to do this and that but most of the ideas never come to pass. When Jack's old man said that in the book and movie and the reflection of Jack reminds me of what others said of me as well - funny guy, forgetful, opinionated.
I never thought that those cliches will come up in a movie such as this. Oh well!! :-\
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tpe: Thank you for the poem. It is very beautiful.
My mum used to say to me that I have a lot of ideas to do this and that but most of the ideas never come to pass. When Jack's old man said that in the book and movie and the reflection of Jack reminds me of what others said of me as well - funny guy, forgetful, opinionated.
I never thought that those cliches will come up in a movie such as this. Oh well!! :-\
Better to dream than to end up always following the herd. ;)
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tpe: And a heart like Jack's which never settles on one place? :'(
I mean, god help me if I were to grow old and bitter like Jack thinking of the dreams unfulfilled, feeling like a failure. I know JacK's wanting to do something about his situation even though he has gotten out of being broke but still unhappy...
I guess that society keeps him in check that he cannot get out of and finally came undone. :'(
As for Ennis, he was so trapped in his own prison that he just couldn't reach out more to the ones who love him the most. Even though he didn't come undone, he still ended up being lonely and unhappy. Maybe it is as good as being undone, tortured for the rest of his life. :'(
Jack however has the ability to light up and dispels the dark corners in Ennis' toughened soul. How amazing is that? At least they treasured their moments together no matter how fleeting they are and how long it takes to see each other again. Those memories may fade away but their feelings would never betray them...
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Something I didn't quite understand about that scene.
Jack said "See you for supper" when Ennis rode off to the sheeps.
He sees a sheep maimed... Quite gross...
Then the next scene we see Jack laying watching over the sheeps and they were discussing how that night was a one-off.
"I aint queer." "Me neither."
Hmm, I thought Ennis is supposed to come down for supper and besides isn't the herder communting four hours a day?? ???
The four hour commute would be dependant on the distance between flock and camp, it would change every time they moved-So by the time Ennis was doing it it could have been either part of the that time, or more even.--and the herder would be riding two hours down to camp,probably about 8 to 12 miles one way---between camp and flock. So he would eat a big breakfast, take some jerky or dried meat for lunch up with the sheep, and not come down till evening meal.
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ranchgal: Thank you! :)
I am surprised they are sick of beans morning and evening...
Beans beans the magical flute,
the more you eat the more you toot... ;D
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Howdy.
I wished I had found this thread earlier.
tpe, I really enjoyed your analysis of the 'dead sheep scene'... insightful and integral.
I had always thought that "Brokeback Mountain" is, in fact, very heavy in christian and religious symbolism:
1) sheepherding: shepherding is tightly associated with the tending of spiritual groups of people
2) death of the sheep: a religious sacrifice
3) mountains and valleys: as in walking though the valley of death... Psalm 23
4) shirts: like the wings of angels or represents our souls
5) the hanger with a single nail: like a crucifix
Your reference to the "death of the sheep" as a foreshadowing of what's to come for Jack was brilliant. The previous scene in the tent as Jack was still sleeping and Ennis was waking showed an angelic and contented look on Jack's sleeping face. The sudden shift between scenes was quite ominous.
Wow... I could go on...
Peace,
Frank
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Howdy.
I wished I had found this thread earlier.
tpe, I really enjoyed your analysis of the 'dead sheep scene'... insightful and integral.
I had always thought that "Brokeback Mountain" is, in fact, very heavy in christian and religious symbolism:
1) sheepherding: shepherding is tightly associated with the tending of spiritual groups of people
2) death of the sheep: a religious sacrifice
3) mountains and valleys: as in walking though the valley of death... Psalm 23
4) shirts: like the wings of angels or represents our souls
5) the hanger with a single nail: like a crucifix
Your reference to the "death of the sheep" as a foreshadowing of what's to come for Jack was brilliant. The previous scene in the tent as Jack was still sleeping and Ennis was waking showed an angelic and contented look on Jack's sleeping face. The sudden shift between scenes was quite ominous.
Wow... I could go on...
Peace,
Frank
Hello Frank. Thanks for your kind remarks. I must admit that I have friends with opposing sets of ideas. One group insists that there is a lot of Christian/religious symbolism in the movie, whereas the other set of friends insists that there was none intended. You may have already seen the old thread that discusses the telephone poles that look like the crosses in Calvary at the very beginning of the movie. Whether you believe in any such symbolism or not is not that important I guess. The movie is rich enough such that one can overlay it with your own insights and symbolism. It only shows what a deep and provocative movie this is.
I have also been fascinated with any symbolism that can be attached to the lyrics assigned to 'Water Walking Jesus' and it's prominence in the scene right before the first tent scene ('You may be a sinner, but I ain't had the opportunity').
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This is apropos of francis.shim "death of the sheep: a religious sacrifice":
Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi:
miserere nobis.
Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi:
miserere nobis.
Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi:
dona nobis pacem.
Ecce Agnus Dei, ecce qui tollit peccata mundi.
Domine, non sum dignus ut intres sub tectum meum, sed tantum dic verbo et sanabitur anima mea Beati qui ad cenam Agni vocati sunt.
Copus Christi.
Amen.
Thank you, tpe, I got this notion from you. I know from elsewhere that you will recognize.
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You might want to put a translation?! :P
Thankx Froggy
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You might want to put a translation?! :P
Thankx Froggy
I'm quite sure TPE could handle this.
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Good old world wide web!
Agnus dei qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis.
Agnus dei qui sedes ad dexteram patris, miserere nobis.
Agnus dei qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis.
Ecce Agnus Dei, ecce qui tollit peccata mundi.
Domine, non sum dignus ut intres sub tectum meum, sed tantum dic verbo et sanabitur anima mea Beati qui ad cenam Agni vocati sunt.
Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world, have mercy on us.
Lamb of God, who sits at the right hand of the father, have mercy on us.
Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world, have mercy on us.
Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.
Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldst enter under my roof; but only say the word, and my servant shall be healed.
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You might want to put a translation?! :P
Thankx Froggy
I'm quite sure TPE could handle this.
yeah but what about poor little froggy..I feel left out! hehehe! anyway, as we say in French "On n'est jamais mieux servi que par soi-même"
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yeah but what about poor little froggy..I feel left out! hehehe! anyway, as we say in French "On n'est jamais mieux servi que par soi-même"
You Bet!
Just found a French equivalent for You Bet...
Mets-z-en!
Well the French we are speaking here in Quebec which is slightly different than Europe.
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yeah but what about poor little froggy..I feel left out! hehehe! anyway, as we say in French "On n'est jamais mieux servi que par soi-même"
You Bet!
Just found a French equivalent for You Bet...
Mets-z-en!
Well the French we are speaking here in Quebec which is slightly different than Europe.
I would have said: Tu penses bien!
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yeah but what about poor little froggy..I feel left out! hehehe! anyway, as we say in French "On n'est jamais mieux servi que par soi-même"
You Bet!
Just found a French equivalent for You Bet...
Mets-z-en!
Well the French we are speaking here in Quebec which is slightly different than Europe.
I would have said: Tu penses bien!
Like I said our slang is different.
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Thank you, tpe, I got this notion from you. I know from elsewhere that you will recognize.
You are most welcome! :)
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You might want to put a translation?! :P
Thankx Froggy
I'm quite sure TPE could handle this.
I appreciate you confidence, Pierre!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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You might want to put a translation?! :P
Thankx Froggy
I'm quite sure TPE could handle this.
I appreciate you confidence, Pierre!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
You're very welcome, there's "some" culture on this board. ;)
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Hello Frank. Thanks for your kind remarks. I must admit that I have friends with opposing sets of ideas. One group insists that there is a lot of Christian/religious symbolism in the movie, whereas the other set of friends insists that there was none intended. You may have already seen the old thread that discusses the telephone poles that look like the crosses in Calvary at the very beginning of the movie. Whether you believe in any such symbolism or not is not that important I guess. The movie is rich enough such that one can overlay it with your own insights and symbolism. It only shows what a deep and provocative movie this is.
I have also been fascinated with any symbolism that can be attached to the lyrics assigned to 'Water Walking Jesus' and it's prominence in the scene right before the first tent scene ('You may be a sinner, but I ain't had the opportunity').
Hi tpe...
Here is my interpretation, please ask your friends what they think, because I can only understand "Brokeback Mountain"'s appeal to a broad audience which also includes christians in the following context.
Annie Proulx wrote the original short story and from reading interviews as well as other semi-biographical sources, I have learned that she came from a french-canadian background. As we know, it is entirely possible to write a story from research materials alone... that is without the writer's own background and belief systems entering into the body of the story; however, there are a couple of "co-incidences" that make me believe that Annie Proulx did put a lot of symbolism in the story which includes many christian icons. I also believe that even if Annie Proulx did not "consciously" place these symbols purposefully she could have placed them subconsciously. Since she herself claimed that she used her imagination and inspiration to flesh out a story of destructive rural homophobia among the West outbacks of Wyoming and Texas, I can only therefore refer to a Jungian concept of "common symbols" (my words, not Jung's, but accurate enough). She used the symbols already manifest within the place and time she was studying along with her own personal experience.
First, a body of work without the writer's own value system is difficult at best, even if the work was a non-fictional documentary. I now imagine how could a work of fiction not have symbols that come from a prevalent common belief system (ie: christianity). After all, most French-Canadians have been influenced by the Jesuits, Anglican and Catholic missionaries and christianity is prolific in trying to evangelize itself (I am guessing, but we could verify with Annie Proulx herself, but this is more fun).
Second, why look at sheepherders and camp tenders? In this case, the time and place (ie: 1960's) had sheep herding going through increased US Government regulations which was making it economically more hectic for the people of Wyoming in that common business. I am going out on a limb here, but consider that sheepherding is considered to be a "hard working and low paying" and is usually taken up by common people with strong religious ties. Religious ties that became homophobic and puritanical. The most prevalent being christianity. The symbols are manifest. In this case, the sheep and its associations. Something that was already there must have attracted Annie Proulx to it... it could be conscious or it could simply be intuitive or it could be subconscious... but it is there. Annie Proulx writes about the "mixing of the sheep herds"... why? What bearing does mixing of the sheeps have on a concept like homophobia? If there is a connection there then I believe the connection would also be connected to the manifest symbols already there.
Third, examples like the "shirts" (angels and souls), the "hanger" and the "nail" (crucifix), "Brokeback Mountain" (Calvary)... I consider as a different kind of manifest symbols, in this case, people with strong christian iconic knowledge would intuit these symbols from Annie Proulx work whether or not Annie Proulx placed the symbols into the story on purpose. It is my suspicion that she may have discovered these as devices, but it could be accidental; however, I simply cannot see this as pure co-incidences. In order for Annie Proulx body of work to be compelling, it must also be shared by the general society that reads it. Christianity is a major religion and, thus, most of the readers would have some iconic knowledge of it so as to intuit these from the body of work. Since (and I risk "blasphemy" from writing this) christianity forms the basis of the most popular religion in the US and the fact that most of the homophobic rationales have been based on subsets of its interpretation, I can only assume that writers and readers alike will most likely encounter these common-place icons in stories about homophobia.
I am a bit tired now... if you note the time I wrote this... however, I would like to hear back from you and your friends/colleagues.
Peace,
Frank
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Hi tpe...
Here is my interpretation, please ask your friends what they think, because I can only understand "Brokeback Mountain"'s appeal to a broad audience which also includes christians in the following context.
Annie Proulx wrote the original short story and from reading interviews as well as other semi-biographical sources, I have learned that she came from a french-canadian background. As we know, it is entirely possible to write a story from research materials alone... that is without the writer's own background and belief systems entering into the body of the story; however, there are a couple of "co-incidences" that make me believe that Annie Proulx did put a lot of symbolism in the story which includes many christian icons. I also believe that even if Annie Proulx did not "consciously" place these symbols purposefully she could have placed them subconsciously. Since she herself claimed that she used her imagination and inspiration to flesh out a story of destructive rural homophobia among the West outbacks of Wyoming and Texas, I can only therefore refer to a Jungian concept of "common symbols" (my words, not Jung's, but accurate enough). She used the symbols already manifest within the place and time she was studying along with her own personal experience.
First, a body of work without the writer's own value system is difficult at best, even if the work was a non-fictional documentary. I now imagine how could a work of fiction not have symbols that come from a prevalent common belief system (ie: christianity). After all, most French-Canadians have been influenced by the Jesuits, Anglican and Catholic missionaries and christianity is prolific in trying to evangelize itself (I am guessing, but we could verify with Annie Proulx herself, but this is more fun).
Second, why look at sheepherders and camp tenders? In this case, the time and place (ie: 1960's) had sheep herding going through increased US Government regulations which was making it economically more hectic for the people of Wyoming in that common business. I am going out on a limb here, but consider that sheepherding is considered to be a "hard working and low paying" and is usually taken up by common people with strong religious ties. Religious ties that became homophobic and puritanical. The most prevalent being christianity. The symbols are manifest. In this case, the sheep and its associations. Something that was already there must have attracted Annie Proulx to it... it could be conscious or it could simply be intuitive or it could be subconscious... but it is there. Annie Proulx writes about the "mixing of the sheep herds"... why? What bearing does mixing of the sheeps have on a concept like homophobia? If there is a connection there then I believe the connection would also be connected to the manifest symbols already there.
Third, examples like the "shirts" (angels and souls), the "hanger" and the "nail" (crucifix), "Brokeback Mountain" (Calvary)... I consider as a different kind of manifest symbols, in this case, people with strong christian iconic knowledge would intuit these symbols from Annie Proulx work whether or not Annie Proulx placed the symbols into the story on purpose. It is my suspicion that she may have discovered these as devices, but it could be accidental; however, I simply cannot see this as pure co-incidences. In order for Annie Proulx body of work to be compelling, it must also be shared by the general society that reads it. Christianity is a major religion and, thus, most of the readers would have some iconic knowledge of it so as to intuit these from the body of work. Since (and I risk "blasphemy" from writing this) christianity forms the basis of the most popular religion in the US and the fact that most of the homophobic rationales have been based on subsets of its interpretation, I can only assume that writers and readers alike will most likely encounter these common-place icons in stories about homophobia.
I am a bit tired now... if you note the time I wrote this... however, I would like to hear back from you and your friends/colleagues.
Peace,
Frank
Hello Frank. Thanks, and I will ask my other friends (the ones who don't think there are explicit symbols) what they think of your points.
Personally, I refer to BBM as 'The Passion of Ennis Del Mar' among my more religious-minded friends. Religious or not, I think the metaphor is apt, don't you think?
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Hello Frank. Thanks, and I will ask my other friends (the ones who don't think there are explicit symbols) what they think of your points.
Personally, I refer to BBM as 'The Passion of Ennis Del Mar' among my more religious-minded friends. Religious or not, I think the metaphor is apt, don't you think?
Hmmmm... as an answer to the Mel Gibson's pacifier... I love it!!!
... but I must confess, that I have to say that it would be more apt to say "The Passion of Jack Twist" and "The Denial of Ennis of Del Mar".
Peace,
Frank
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... but I must confess, that I have to say that it would be more apt to say "The Passion of Jack Twist" and "The Denial of Ennis of Del Mar".
;D Good ones! ;D
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Even Calgary in Alberta is so close to Calvary... ;)
Sorry. Can't resist the word association... No blasphemy intended...
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Even Calgary in Alberta is so close to Calvary... ;)
Sorry. Can't resist the word association... No blasphemy intended...
Bad boy!
;D ;D ;D ;D
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Something I didn't quite understand about that scene.
Jack said "See you for supper" when Ennis rode off to the sheeps.
He sees a sheep maimed... Quite gross...
Then the next scene we see Jack laying watching over the sheeps and they were discussing how that night was a one-off.
"I aint queer." "Me neither."
Hmm, I thought Ennis is supposed to come down for supper and besides isn't the herder communting four hours a day?? ???
This is the one part in the movie that bugs me. The general concensus is that Ang Lee was taking "creative license" in this scene. But that doesn't resonate with me! I find it difficult to believe that there is a sequence in the movie that is ...well, out of sequence!
The only thing I can come up with is that Jack needed reassurance and went UP the mountain. But having Ennis walk up to Jack - seems to make even less sense. I've decided (for my own interpretation) that Jack went up - ennis was busy doing something - so jack sat down gazing over the sheep and ennis walked over to him.
But, it's not a very satisfactory explanation for me. I'm not even convinced about the timeframes. Was it really just that night? If I ever had a moment with Ang - that's what I'd ask him about!
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Something I didn't quite understand about that scene.
Jack said "See you for supper" when Ennis rode off to the sheeps.
He sees a sheep maimed... Quite gross...
Then the next scene we see Jack laying watching over the sheeps and they were discussing how that night was a one-off.
"I aint queer." "Me neither."
Hmm, I thought Ennis is supposed to come down for supper and besides isn't the herder communting four hours a day?? ???
This is the one part in the movie that bugs me. The general concensus is that Ang Lee was taking "creative license" in this scene. But that doesn't resonate with me! I find it difficult to believe that there is a sequence in the movie that is ...well, out of sequence!
The only thing I can come up with is that Jack needed reassurance and went UP the mountain. But having Ennis walk up to Jack - seems to make even less sense. I've decided (for my own interpretation) that Jack went up - ennis was busy doing something - so jack sat down gazing over the sheep and ennis walked over to him.
But, it's not a very satisfactory explanation for me. I'm not even convinced about the timeframes. Was it really just that night? If I ever had a moment with Ang - that's what I'd ask him about!
Took another mental note to watch tomorrow on my 5th viewing.
The grocery list is quite long now. :P
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chameau: Does your grocery list include repeated viewings of Brokeback? ;)
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chameau: Does your grocery list include repeated viewings of Brokeback? ;)
It's another topic about addiction... ;D
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Even Calgary in Alberta is so close to Calvary... ;)
Sorry. Can't resist the word association... No blasphemy intended...
Nice one!!!
Peace,
Frank (aka Jack Nasty)
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...and both are close to Cavalry. No blasphemy inferred.
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I find the dead sheep unattractive.
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I find the dead sheep unattractive.
I guess you don't eat lamb chops? ;D
Peace,
Frank (aka Jack Nasty)
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Dose anybody think about why Mr. Ang Lee put this scene after Ennis and Jack first encunter?
I think it brings back a memory for Ennis, one that we don't learn about til later.
I think that the position of the sheep, on his back, head turned, legs splayed, is very much like the position of the guy that Ennis saw in the irrigation ditch when he was 9. And that having Ennis see that the morning after their first encounter only reinforces Ennis' belief that his relationship with Jack will not lead to anything positive.
Chrissy
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Dose anybody think about why Mr. Ang Lee put this scene after Ennis and Jack first encunter?
I think it brings back a memory for Ennis, one that we don't learn about til later.
I think that the position of the sheep, on his back, head turned, legs splayed, is very much like the position of the guy that Ennis saw in the irrigation ditch when he was 9. And that having Ennis see that the morning after their first encounter only reinforces Ennis' belief that his relationship with Jack will not lead to anything positive.
Chrissy
Excellent observation, Chrissy! Now, why didn't I think of that? It is amazing what a collaborative, corporate effort of many minds can uncover.
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Dose anybody think about why Mr. Ang Lee put this scene after Ennis and Jack first encunter?
I think it brings back a memory for Ennis, one that we don't learn about til later.
I think that the position of the sheep, on his back, head turned, legs splayed, is very much like the position of the guy that Ennis saw in the irrigation ditch when he was 9. And that having Ennis see that the morning after their first encounter only reinforces Ennis' belief that his relationship with Jack will not lead to anything positive.
Chrissy
That is really observant, Chrissy... also earlier in this thread tpe had mentioned the foreshadowing that this scene does for the tragic death of Jack. I keep shuddering when I keep thinking about this, because it really puts Ennis in the "shepherd" role and Jack in the "sacrificial lamb" role.... ugh!! It keeps breaking my heart as to what is to come.
Peace,
Frank (aka Jack Nasty)
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I think the commuting was four hours in total per day:
herd - breakfast in camp
camp - herd
herd - lunch
camp - herd
herd - supper
camp - herd
So it might only have taken 30-45 minutes getting up there and often both of them are by the herd. Maybe Jack couldn´t stand being down there until supper?
I agree. Don't forget the scene up with the herd (sounds better than flock anyway) at night looking back down into the valley showing the not too distant glow of the fire at camp. Can you imagine the thoughts just knowing he was that close. Your time estimate is good. And forgive me but, with that in the distance and he is stuck with a "sheep flock". ;)
I'm going to have to see BBM a third time before all the books and screenplay arrive.
lowpro
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Wow, I just realized, from a PBS educational documentary, that in prisons, a sexual predator is called a "wolf".
The wolf killed the sheep. The dog is standing guard. The wolf that was killed had "balls the size of apples." A wolf and a dog are similar (canines) yes disimilar (enemy/friend, unlawful/lawful, thief/servant). Gay and straight sex is similar yet dissimilar, along the same criteria, in the eyes of society.
Some 15 years ago, or more, I watched a 60-minutes/20-20 (cant remember which) type expose, of gay men soliciting male prostitutes, filmed under cover.
The term for the male prostitute was "a chicken", which is not a sheep, admittedly, but it is this same imagery which fits in with wolves as predators.
Criminals in the street, seeking drug money, refer to their victims as "prey".
Yet, at the 4th of July fireworks display, the two "Hells angels" were certainly predatory heterosexuals.
I vividly remember, in the PBS documentary on prison "wolves", and interview with one sexual predator, who had a pattern of beating heterosexual prisoners into submission, until they would perform upon him. He described what he did to one fellow prisoner, who finally cried, but in the end, broken, performed as the wolf wished. The "wolf" explained that all of his childhood was miserable. He never received any love, or birthday parties, or presents, so, therefore, why should anyone else be happy or have it easy.
All this talk of images of death reminds me of Thomas Mann's Death in Venice
This is so very true! I get chills just reading this post. I remember exactly that the music that was played when the sheep is found dead and brutally slaughtered is the same music that was playing when Ennis saw the ill-fated postcard. Maybe that music was symbolic of what was in Ennis' head. When my partner and I first met (he's so much like Ennis), he used to always say we were going to hell for what we were doing. I of course never believed that. But this post reminds me of those scary feelings... so ery eerie!
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This is so very true! I get chills just reading this post. I remember exactly that the music that was played when the sheep is found dead and brutally slaughtered is the same music that was playing when Ennis saw the ill-fated postcard. Maybe that music was symbolic of what was in Ennis' head. When my partner and I first met (he's so much like Ennis), he used to always say we were going to hell for what we were doing. I of course never believed that. But this post reminds me of those scary feelings... so ery eerie!
There is a third scene with that same "music" (I call it the "death motif"); it's where 9-year old Ennis is taken to see the body of Earl (the murdered gay rancher neighbor). Someone here has also commented on the similarity of the sheep's carcass and Earl's body. And in Ennis' mind he sees Jack being beaten to death while laying helpless on his back.
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This is so very true! I get chills just reading this post. I remember exactly that the music that was played when the sheep is found dead and brutally slaughtered is the same music that was playing when Ennis saw the ill-fated postcard. Maybe that music was symbolic of what was in Ennis' head. When my partner and I first met (he's so much like Ennis), he used to always say we were going to hell for what we were doing. I of course never believed that. But this post reminds me of those scary feelings... so ery eerie!
There is a third scene with that same "music" (I call it the "death motif"); it's where 9-year old Ennis is taken to see the body of Earl (the murdered gay rancher neighbor). Someone here has also commented on the similarity of the sheep's carcass and Earl's body. And in Ennis' mind he sees Jack being beaten to death while laying helpless on his back.
Wow, I never made the music conncetion. Thanks for posting this. I'll have to pay more attention next time I see it.
BTW that was me who mentioned the similarity of the postion of the bodies. Funny how I saw that but didn't notice the music.
Chrissy
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I agree with the lot of you, but I keep thinking....the sheep got his guts torn out and that's what is going to happen to Ennis later on (emotionally)
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I agree with the lot of you, but I keep thinking....the sheep got his guts torn out and that's what is going to happen to Ennis later on (emotionally)
Prior to reading your post here, I just finished reading the following true story, truly gut-wrenching, posted by a 62 year old man at http://www.annieproulx.com
http://www.annieproulx.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=2381#2381
I think that all BBM fans will be deeply moved by this true story. The man who writes this could very well be Ennis in old age.
I encourage you to visit the above link and read the moving story in it's entirety.
....
(posting only the final several paragraphs)
As before, we spent an inordinate amount of time together that summer working for the campaign of John Kennedy for President. My senior year I was given a scholarship to a private boarding school and I was excited to leave home, in no small part because it would separate us finally. Yet he came up to visit me several times that fall, hitchhiking or getting his mom to drive him. He seemed to grow more sad and withdrawn. And I would see him on those weekends I came home and over the Christmas holidays, often again staying over each other's houses, still committing sin. He had started seeing an older married man in his twenties whom he liked, a man who had been a driver in the Kennedy campaign.
I was glad to hear it as I thought it would relieve me the burden of guilt and responsibility for his emotional and sexual neediness. When I went back to school I intentionally stayed at school most weekends, going places with my new friends and classmates. One Thursday evening in spring my Mom called school to tell me Billy shot himself in the mouth and was dead.
He has haunted my life. I told his mother about our relationship because I felt I must confess my part, I had to tell her my part in driving him to such desperation. She thought that was small potatoes, had already known about it, but suffered terribly the unrelieved self-recrimination of his loss, blaming herself for his tragic end, nearly wild with intolerable grief. She began to drink a lot. We spent a great deal of time together that summer, nearly every single day. Then I left home for college and never returned there to live. His mom moved to Tacoma, Washington, finished high school and college and became a high school counselor, adopting two teenage girls, sisters.
In death he, whom in life I tried to flee, became my constant companion. I still carry him daily around with me. I recall his face at odd times in any day and we have talked often through the years in my dreams. I love his visiting me in my dreams, except in the one recurring dream of unalleviated sadness he appears with no skin, raw, not talking, only sobbing, his tears moistening his flesh. When Jake said to Ennis “I wish I knew how to quit you” its resonance was sharp, the quick of its torn and bare cri de coeur terrible and true.
Wave after wave of more parallels abound, leaping peak to peak, Brokeback Mountain has much reverberation in my life. I cannot keep from being profoundly shaken over the memories it gave full life to in the lives of Ennis and Jake. The mirrored memories of those two sad, poor boys, now so long ago I’ve mourned; whose best friend, a boy I’ve always loved, died so fast and hard before I could find names. Brokeback Mountain heard somehow what I've carried in my heart;it knew and guessed the ghost kept hidden in a concealed valley, its howls at night heard over the distance against a small moon; and most of all it showed that sorrows pure springs are all the same[1], whatever their names.
--leoneill
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Its so interesting what people think about this scene, also the symbolism and about the music. I have thought about this scene also, and i think that apart from 'bigger' symbols that the sheep might represent, there is one wich is related to the story and about Ennis his experience with 'gay things'.
Like we know, he saw the awful thing about the murderd man when he was nine. So from that point in his young life he thought: when you are gay, your ending is bad, nothing good will happen etc.. He related 'gay' with violence and dead. The first thing he saw after his experience with Jack was: a dead sheep. I think that this scene in the movie was to express this link, wich comes up again with the ending of Jack ( when Ennis is on the phone with Lureen, the pictures he sees in his mind? About Jack beaten up.) and wich is of big influence about the whole story.
Also, this scene expresses guilt feelings about what he has done that night, beeing away and not take responsibility for the sheep. And maybe also in this way: like if you are babysitting your sister, and a friend ask you: come on there's a great party, lets go! Well, you are feeling: i can;'t go, something will happen to my sister, but you are pursuaded and you go to the party. When you come back, your sister fall from the stairs or something... (yaiks). That kind of feeling may be also represented. And again, if Jack is really killed by gay beaters, than this 'fore feeling' of Ennis was right.
I think this scene is very important for the story. It is not a happy one, but it is representing so much. Sorry i have brought up such an old topic again, but i wanted to add this.
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Its so interesting what people think about this scene, also the symbolism and about the music. I have thought about this scene also, and i think that apart from 'bigger' symbols that the sheep might represent, there is one wich is related to the story and about Ennis his experience with 'gay things'.
Like we know, he saw the awful thing about the murderd man when he was nine. So from that point in his young life he thought: when you are gay, your ending is bad, nothing good will happen etc.. He related 'gay' with violence and dead. The first thing he saw after his experience with Jack was: a dead sheep. I think that this scene in the movie was to express this link, wich comes up again with the ending of Jack ( when Ennis is on the phone with Lureen, the pictures he sees in his mind? About Jack beaten up.) and wich is of big influence about the whole story.
Also, this scene expresses guilt feelings about what he has done that night, beeing away and not take responsibility for the sheep. And maybe also in this way: like if you are babysitting your sister, and a friend ask you: come on there's a great party, lets go! Well, you are feeling: i can;'t go, something will happen to my sister, but you are pursuaded and you go to the party. When you come back, your sister fall from the stairs or something... (yaiks). That kind of feeling may be also represented. And again, if Jack is really killed by gay beaters, than this 'fore feeling' of Ennis was right.
I think this scene is very important for the story. It is not a happy one, but it is representing so much. Sorry i have brought up such an old topic again, but i wanted to add this.
Carolien, welcome to the forum, and I commend you for a first beautiful post.
welshwitch had also noted in another thread the intrinsic connection between the dead sheep scene and the remebrabce of Earl's death. What is interesting is that we only see the scene involving Earl much later, and we even hear the same music. Certainly, the association is this: the wages of sin is death.
You also pointed out the connection with the scene showing Jack's death. This is certainly true. And we see it in the movie as if Ennis himself was seeing it in his mind's eye. It has been voiced elsewhere that perhaps Ennis even imagined himself as Jack's killer (see the thread on the tire iron scene) -- whether this is true or not, this nonetheless echoes your observation about the sense of guilt that Ennis harbored within himself.
I do agree that this scene is pivotal to everything that comes after it. The amazing thing is that it is done so subtly. It is not strange that many first-time viewers did not see the significance. And yet, deep down, I am sure all of us felt a sense of dread and foreboding -- something that we could not understand at the moment, and yet accepted as a warning on what was to come.