Author Topic: 'dead sheep' scene - spoilers  (Read 42783 times)

Offline tpe

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Re: 'dead sheep' scene - spoilers
« Reply #30 on: Feb 05, 2006, 04:28 PM »
Howdy.

I wished I had found this thread earlier.

tpe, I really enjoyed your analysis of the 'dead sheep scene'... insightful and integral.

I had always thought that "Brokeback Mountain" is, in fact, very heavy in christian and religious symbolism:

    1) sheepherding: shepherding is tightly associated with the tending of spiritual groups of people
    2) death of the sheep: a religious sacrifice
    3) mountains and valleys: as in walking though the valley of death... Psalm 23
    4)  shirts: like the wings of angels or represents our souls
    5)  the hanger with a single nail: like a crucifix

Your reference to the "death of the sheep" as a foreshadowing of what's to come for Jack was brilliant.  The previous scene in the tent as Jack was still sleeping and Ennis was waking showed an angelic and contented look on Jack's sleeping face.  The sudden shift between scenes was quite ominous.

Wow... I could go on...

Peace,
Frank


Hello Frank.  Thanks for your kind remarks.  I must admit that I have friends with opposing sets of ideas.  One group insists that there is a lot of Christian/religious symbolism in the movie, whereas the other set of friends insists that there was none intended.  You may have already seen the old thread that discusses the telephone poles that look like the crosses in Calvary at the very beginning of the movie.  Whether you believe in any such symbolism or not is not that important I guess.  The movie is rich enough such that one can overlay it with your own insights and symbolism.  It only shows what a deep and provocative movie this is.

I have also been fascinated with any symbolism that can be attached to the lyrics assigned to 'Water Walking Jesus' and it's prominence in the scene right before the first tent scene ('You may be a sinner, but I ain't had the opportunity').   

Offline septuaginarian

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Re: 'dead sheep' scene - spoilers
« Reply #31 on: Feb 05, 2006, 06:17 PM »
This is apropos of francis.shim "death of the sheep: a religious sacrifice":


Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi:
miserere nobis.
Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi:
miserere nobis.
Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi:
dona nobis pacem.

Ecce Agnus Dei, ecce qui tollit peccata mundi.
Domine, non sum dignus ut intres sub tectum meum, sed tantum dic verbo et sanabitur anima mea  Beati qui ad cenam Agni vocati sunt.

Copus Christi.
Amen.
 
Thank you, tpe,  I got this notion from you. I know from elsewhere that you will recognize.
 
septuaginarian

Offline *Froggy*

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Re: 'dead sheep' scene - spoilers
« Reply #32 on: Feb 05, 2006, 06:17 PM »
You might want to put a translation?! :P

Thankx Froggy
« Last Edit: Feb 05, 2006, 06:21 PM by frog123 »
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Offline chameau

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Re: 'dead sheep' scene - spoilers
« Reply #33 on: Feb 05, 2006, 06:18 PM »
You might want to put a translation?! :P

Thankx Froggy

I'm quite sure TPE could handle this.
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Re: 'dead sheep' scene - spoilers
« Reply #34 on: Feb 05, 2006, 06:27 PM »
Good old world wide web!

Agnus dei qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis.
Agnus dei qui sedes ad dexteram patris, miserere nobis.
Agnus dei qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis.

Ecce Agnus Dei, ecce qui tollit peccata mundi.
Domine, non sum dignus ut intres sub tectum meum, sed tantum dic verbo et sanabitur anima mea  Beati qui ad cenam Agni vocati sunt.

Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world, have mercy on us.
Lamb of God, who sits at the right hand of the father, have mercy on us.
Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world, have mercy on us.

Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.
Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldst enter under my roof; but only say the word, and my servant shall be healed.
Support bacteria, they are the only culture some people have!


If you press me to say why I loved him, I can say no more than because he was he, and I was I.
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Offline *Froggy*

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Re: 'dead sheep' scene - spoilers
« Reply #35 on: Feb 05, 2006, 06:29 PM »
You might want to put a translation?! :P

Thankx Froggy

I'm quite sure TPE could handle this.

yeah but what about poor little froggy..I feel left out! hehehe! anyway, as we say in French "On n'est jamais mieux servi que par soi-même"
Support bacteria, they are the only culture some people have!


If you press me to say why I loved him, I can say no more than because he was he, and I was I.
~ Michel Eyquem de Montaigne (1533-1592) ~ (Thankx to gimmejack)

Offline chameau

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Re: 'dead sheep' scene - spoilers
« Reply #36 on: Feb 05, 2006, 06:38 PM »
Quote
yeah but what about poor little froggy..I feel left out! hehehe! anyway, as we say in French "On n'est jamais mieux servi que par soi-même"

You Bet!

Just found a French equivalent for You Bet...

Mets-z-en!

Well the French we are speaking here in Quebec which is slightly different than Europe.
La dictature c'est ''ferme ta geule'', la démocratie c'est ''cause toujours''
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Offline *Froggy*

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Re: 'dead sheep' scene - spoilers
« Reply #37 on: Feb 05, 2006, 06:39 PM »
Quote
yeah but what about poor little froggy..I feel left out! hehehe! anyway, as we say in French "On n'est jamais mieux servi que par soi-même"

You Bet!

Just found a French equivalent for You Bet...

Mets-z-en!

Well the French we are speaking here in Quebec which is slightly different than Europe.

I would have said: Tu penses bien!
Support bacteria, they are the only culture some people have!


If you press me to say why I loved him, I can say no more than because he was he, and I was I.
~ Michel Eyquem de Montaigne (1533-1592) ~ (Thankx to gimmejack)

Offline chameau

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Re: 'dead sheep' scene - spoilers
« Reply #38 on: Feb 05, 2006, 06:44 PM »
Quote
yeah but what about poor little froggy..I feel left out! hehehe! anyway, as we say in French "On n'est jamais mieux servi que par soi-même"

You Bet!

Just found a French equivalent for You Bet...

Mets-z-en!

Well the French we are speaking here in Quebec which is slightly different than Europe.

I would have said: Tu penses bien!

Like I said our slang is different.
La dictature c'est ''ferme ta geule'', la démocratie c'est ''cause toujours''
 Jean-Louis Barrault

Offline tpe

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Re: 'dead sheep' scene - spoilers
« Reply #39 on: Feb 05, 2006, 07:24 PM »
Thank you, tpe,  I got this notion from you. I know from elsewhere that you will recognize.

You are most welcome! :)
« Last Edit: Feb 05, 2006, 07:26 PM by tpe »

Offline tpe

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Re: 'dead sheep' scene - spoilers
« Reply #40 on: Feb 05, 2006, 07:25 PM »
You might want to put a translation?! :P

Thankx Froggy

I'm quite sure TPE could handle this.

I appreciate you confidence, Pierre!!!  ;D ;D ;D ;D

Offline chameau

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Re: 'dead sheep' scene - spoilers
« Reply #41 on: Feb 05, 2006, 07:26 PM »
You might want to put a translation?! :P

Thankx Froggy

I'm quite sure TPE could handle this.

I appreciate you confidence, Pierre!!!  ;D ;D ;D ;D

You're very welcome, there's "some" culture on this board.  ;)
La dictature c'est ''ferme ta geule'', la démocratie c'est ''cause toujours''
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Offline francis.shim

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Re: 'dead sheep' scene - spoilers
« Reply #42 on: Feb 06, 2006, 06:22 AM »
Hello Frank.  Thanks for your kind remarks.  I must admit that I have friends with opposing sets of ideas.  One group insists that there is a lot of Christian/religious symbolism in the movie, whereas the other set of friends insists that there was none intended.  You may have already seen the old thread that discusses the telephone poles that look like the crosses in Calvary at the very beginning of the movie.  Whether you believe in any such symbolism or not is not that important I guess.  The movie is rich enough such that one can overlay it with your own insights and symbolism.  It only shows what a deep and provocative movie this is.

I have also been fascinated with any symbolism that can be attached to the lyrics assigned to 'Water Walking Jesus' and it's prominence in the scene right before the first tent scene ('You may be a sinner, but I ain't had the opportunity').   

Hi tpe...

Here is my interpretation, please ask your friends what they think, because I can only understand "Brokeback Mountain"'s appeal to a broad audience which also includes christians in the following context.

Annie Proulx wrote the original short story and from reading interviews as well as other semi-biographical sources, I have learned that she came from a french-canadian background.  As we know, it is entirely possible to write a story from research materials alone... that is without the writer's own background and belief systems entering into the body of the story; however, there are a couple of "co-incidences" that make me believe that Annie Proulx did put a lot of symbolism in the story which includes many christian icons.  I also believe that even if Annie Proulx did not "consciously" place these symbols purposefully she could have placed them subconsciously.  Since she herself claimed that she used her imagination and inspiration to flesh out a story of destructive rural homophobia among the West outbacks of Wyoming and Texas, I can only therefore refer to a Jungian concept of "common symbols" (my words, not Jung's, but accurate enough).  She used the symbols already manifest within the place and time she was studying along with her own personal experience.

First, a body of work without the writer's own value system is difficult at best, even if the work was a non-fictional documentary.  I now imagine how could a work of fiction not have symbols that come from a prevalent common belief system (ie: christianity).  After all, most French-Canadians have been influenced by the Jesuits, Anglican and Catholic missionaries and christianity is prolific in trying to evangelize itself (I am guessing, but we could verify with Annie Proulx herself, but this is more fun).

Second, why look at sheepherders and camp tenders?  In this case, the time and place (ie: 1960's) had sheep herding going through increased US Government regulations which was making it economically more hectic for the people of Wyoming in that common business.  I am going out on a limb here, but consider that sheepherding is considered to be a "hard working and low paying" and is usually taken up by common people with strong religious ties.  Religious ties that became homophobic and puritanical.  The most prevalent being christianity.  The symbols are manifest.  In this case, the sheep and its associations.  Something that was already there must have attracted Annie Proulx to it... it could be conscious or it could simply be intuitive or it could be subconscious... but it is there.  Annie Proulx writes about the "mixing of the sheep herds"... why?  What bearing does mixing of the sheeps have on a concept like homophobia?  If there is a connection there then I believe the connection would also be connected to the manifest symbols already there.

Third, examples like the "shirts" (angels and souls), the "hanger" and the "nail" (crucifix), "Brokeback Mountain" (Calvary)... I consider as a different kind of manifest symbols, in this case, people with strong christian iconic knowledge would intuit these symbols from Annie Proulx work whether or not Annie Proulx placed the symbols into the story on purpose.  It is my suspicion that she may have discovered these as devices, but it could be accidental; however, I simply cannot see this as pure co-incidences.  In order for Annie Proulx body of work to be compelling, it must also be shared by the general society that reads it.  Christianity is a major religion and, thus, most of the readers would have some iconic knowledge of it so as to intuit these from the body of work.  Since (and I risk "blasphemy" from writing this) christianity forms the basis of the most popular religion in the US and the fact that most of the homophobic rationales have been based on subsets of its interpretation, I can only assume that writers and readers alike will most likely encounter these common-place icons in stories about homophobia.

I am a bit tired now... if you note the time I wrote this... however, I would like to hear back from you and your friends/colleagues.

Peace,
Frank





Offline tpe

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Re: 'dead sheep' scene - spoilers
« Reply #43 on: Feb 06, 2006, 08:27 AM »
Hi tpe...

Here is my interpretation, please ask your friends what they think, because I can only understand "Brokeback Mountain"'s appeal to a broad audience which also includes christians in the following context.

Annie Proulx wrote the original short story and from reading interviews as well as other semi-biographical sources, I have learned that she came from a french-canadian background.  As we know, it is entirely possible to write a story from research materials alone... that is without the writer's own background and belief systems entering into the body of the story; however, there are a couple of "co-incidences" that make me believe that Annie Proulx did put a lot of symbolism in the story which includes many christian icons.  I also believe that even if Annie Proulx did not "consciously" place these symbols purposefully she could have placed them subconsciously.  Since she herself claimed that she used her imagination and inspiration to flesh out a story of destructive rural homophobia among the West outbacks of Wyoming and Texas, I can only therefore refer to a Jungian concept of "common symbols" (my words, not Jung's, but accurate enough).  She used the symbols already manifest within the place and time she was studying along with her own personal experience.

First, a body of work without the writer's own value system is difficult at best, even if the work was a non-fictional documentary.  I now imagine how could a work of fiction not have symbols that come from a prevalent common belief system (ie: christianity).  After all, most French-Canadians have been influenced by the Jesuits, Anglican and Catholic missionaries and christianity is prolific in trying to evangelize itself (I am guessing, but we could verify with Annie Proulx herself, but this is more fun).

Second, why look at sheepherders and camp tenders?  In this case, the time and place (ie: 1960's) had sheep herding going through increased US Government regulations which was making it economically more hectic for the people of Wyoming in that common business.  I am going out on a limb here, but consider that sheepherding is considered to be a "hard working and low paying" and is usually taken up by common people with strong religious ties.  Religious ties that became homophobic and puritanical.  The most prevalent being christianity.  The symbols are manifest.  In this case, the sheep and its associations.  Something that was already there must have attracted Annie Proulx to it... it could be conscious or it could simply be intuitive or it could be subconscious... but it is there.  Annie Proulx writes about the "mixing of the sheep herds"... why?  What bearing does mixing of the sheeps have on a concept like homophobia?  If there is a connection there then I believe the connection would also be connected to the manifest symbols already there.

Third, examples like the "shirts" (angels and souls), the "hanger" and the "nail" (crucifix), "Brokeback Mountain" (Calvary)... I consider as a different kind of manifest symbols, in this case, people with strong christian iconic knowledge would intuit these symbols from Annie Proulx work whether or not Annie Proulx placed the symbols into the story on purpose.  It is my suspicion that she may have discovered these as devices, but it could be accidental; however, I simply cannot see this as pure co-incidences.  In order for Annie Proulx body of work to be compelling, it must also be shared by the general society that reads it.  Christianity is a major religion and, thus, most of the readers would have some iconic knowledge of it so as to intuit these from the body of work.  Since (and I risk "blasphemy" from writing this) christianity forms the basis of the most popular religion in the US and the fact that most of the homophobic rationales have been based on subsets of its interpretation, I can only assume that writers and readers alike will most likely encounter these common-place icons in stories about homophobia.

I am a bit tired now... if you note the time I wrote this... however, I would like to hear back from you and your friends/colleagues.

Peace,
Frank


Hello Frank.  Thanks, and I will ask my other friends (the ones who don't think there are explicit symbols) what they think of your points. 

Personally, I refer to BBM as 'The Passion of Ennis Del Mar' among my more religious-minded friends.  Religious or not, I think the metaphor is apt, don't you think? 

Offline francis.shim

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Re: 'dead sheep' scene - spoilers
« Reply #44 on: Feb 06, 2006, 03:23 PM »
Hello Frank.  Thanks, and I will ask my other friends (the ones who don't think there are explicit symbols) what they think of your points. 

Personally, I refer to BBM as 'The Passion of Ennis Del Mar' among my more religious-minded friends.  Religious or not, I think the metaphor is apt, don't you think? 

Hmmmm... as an answer to the Mel Gibson's pacifier... I love it!!!

... but I must confess, that I have to say that it would be more apt to say "The Passion of Jack Twist" and "The Denial of Ennis of Del Mar".

Peace,
Frank

Offline *Froggy*

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Re: 'dead sheep' scene - spoilers
« Reply #45 on: Feb 06, 2006, 03:24 PM »
... but I must confess, that I have to say that it would be more apt to say "The Passion of Jack Twist" and "The Denial of Ennis of Del Mar".

 ;D Good ones! ;D
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Offline tpe

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Re: 'dead sheep' scene - spoilers
« Reply #46 on: Feb 06, 2006, 03:40 PM »
Even Calgary in Alberta is so close to Calvary...   ;)

Sorry.  Can't resist the word association...  No blasphemy intended...

Offline chameau

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Re: 'dead sheep' scene - spoilers
« Reply #47 on: Feb 06, 2006, 06:03 PM »
Even Calgary in Alberta is so close to Calvary...   ;)

Sorry.  Can't resist the word association...  No blasphemy intended...

Bad boy!

 ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Offline kcristob

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Re: Sheep maimed by the coyotes scene
« Reply #48 on: Feb 06, 2006, 06:53 PM »
Something I didn't quite understand about that scene.

Jack said "See you for supper" when Ennis rode off to the sheeps.
He sees a sheep maimed... Quite gross...
Then the next scene we see Jack laying watching over the sheeps and they were discussing how that night was a one-off.

"I aint queer." "Me neither."

Hmm, I thought Ennis is supposed to come down for supper and besides isn't the herder communting four hours a day??  ???

This is the one part in the movie that bugs me.  The general concensus is that Ang Lee was taking "creative license" in this scene.  But that doesn't resonate with me!  I find it difficult to believe that there is a sequence in the movie that is ...well, out of sequence!

The only thing I can come up with is that Jack needed reassurance and went UP the mountain.  But having Ennis walk up to Jack - seems to make even less sense.  I've decided (for my own interpretation) that Jack went up - ennis was busy doing something - so jack sat down gazing over the sheep and ennis walked over to him.

But, it's not a very satisfactory explanation for me.  I'm not even convinced about the timeframes.    Was it really just that night?  If I ever had a moment with Ang - that's what I'd ask him about!

Offline chameau

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Re: Sheep maimed by the coyotes scene
« Reply #49 on: Feb 06, 2006, 07:33 PM »
Something I didn't quite understand about that scene.

Jack said "See you for supper" when Ennis rode off to the sheeps.
He sees a sheep maimed... Quite gross...
Then the next scene we see Jack laying watching over the sheeps and they were discussing how that night was a one-off.

"I aint queer." "Me neither."

Hmm, I thought Ennis is supposed to come down for supper and besides isn't the herder communting four hours a day??  ???

This is the one part in the movie that bugs me.  The general concensus is that Ang Lee was taking "creative license" in this scene.  But that doesn't resonate with me!  I find it difficult to believe that there is a sequence in the movie that is ...well, out of sequence!

The only thing I can come up with is that Jack needed reassurance and went UP the mountain.  But having Ennis walk up to Jack - seems to make even less sense.  I've decided (for my own interpretation) that Jack went up - ennis was busy doing something - so jack sat down gazing over the sheep and ennis walked over to him.

But, it's not a very satisfactory explanation for me.  I'm not even convinced about the timeframes.    Was it really just that night?  If I ever had a moment with Ang - that's what I'd ask him about!

Took another mental note to watch tomorrow on my 5th viewing.

The grocery list is quite long now.  :P
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Offline cybernaut

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Re: 'dead sheep' scene - spoilers
« Reply #50 on: Feb 06, 2006, 08:46 PM »
chameau: Does your grocery list include repeated viewings of Brokeback?  ;)
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Offline chameau

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Re: 'dead sheep' scene - spoilers
« Reply #51 on: Feb 06, 2006, 09:17 PM »
chameau: Does your grocery list include repeated viewings of Brokeback?  ;)

It's another topic about addiction...  ;D
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Offline francis.shim

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Re: 'dead sheep' scene - spoilers
« Reply #52 on: Feb 07, 2006, 12:57 AM »
Even Calgary in Alberta is so close to Calvary...   ;)

Sorry.  Can't resist the word association...  No blasphemy intended...

Nice one!!!

Peace,
Frank (aka Jack Nasty)

Offline septuaginarian

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Re: 'dead sheep' scene - spoilers
« Reply #53 on: Feb 07, 2006, 12:35 PM »
...and both are close to Cavalry. No blasphemy inferred.
septuaginarian

Offline manila_rocks

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Re: 'dead sheep' scene - spoilers
« Reply #54 on: Feb 07, 2006, 12:41 PM »
I find the dead sheep unattractive.

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Re: 'dead sheep' scene - spoilers
« Reply #55 on: Feb 07, 2006, 02:48 PM »
I find the dead sheep unattractive.

I guess you don't eat lamb chops?  ;D

Peace,
Frank (aka Jack Nasty)

Offline chrissy323

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Re: 'dead sheep' scene - spoilers
« Reply #56 on: Feb 08, 2006, 02:33 AM »
Dose anybody think about why Mr. Ang Lee put this scene after Ennis and Jack first encunter?

I think it brings back a memory for Ennis, one that we don't learn about til later.

I think that the position of the sheep, on his back, head turned, legs splayed, is very much like the position of the guy that Ennis saw in the irrigation ditch when he was 9. And that having Ennis see that the morning after their first encounter only reinforces Ennis' belief that his relationship with Jack will not lead to anything positive.

Chrissy
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Re: 'dead sheep' scene - spoilers
« Reply #57 on: Feb 08, 2006, 05:55 AM »
Dose anybody think about why Mr. Ang Lee put this scene after Ennis and Jack first encunter?

I think it brings back a memory for Ennis, one that we don't learn about til later.

I think that the position of the sheep, on his back, head turned, legs splayed, is very much like the position of the guy that Ennis saw in the irrigation ditch when he was 9. And that having Ennis see that the morning after their first encounter only reinforces Ennis' belief that his relationship with Jack will not lead to anything positive.

Chrissy

Excellent observation, Chrissy!  Now, why didn't I think of that? It is amazing what a collaborative, corporate effort of many minds can uncover.
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Re: 'dead sheep' scene - spoilers
« Reply #58 on: Feb 08, 2006, 09:05 AM »
Dose anybody think about why Mr. Ang Lee put this scene after Ennis and Jack first encunter?

I think it brings back a memory for Ennis, one that we don't learn about til later.

I think that the position of the sheep, on his back, head turned, legs splayed, is very much like the position of the guy that Ennis saw in the irrigation ditch when he was 9. And that having Ennis see that the morning after their first encounter only reinforces Ennis' belief that his relationship with Jack will not lead to anything positive.

Chrissy

That is really observant, Chrissy... also earlier in this thread tpe had mentioned the foreshadowing that this scene does for the tragic death of Jack.  I keep shuddering when I keep thinking about this, because it really puts Ennis in the "shepherd" role and Jack in the "sacrificial lamb" role.... ugh!!  It keeps breaking my heart as to what is to come.

Peace,
Frank (aka Jack Nasty)

Offline lowpro

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Re: Sheep maimed by the coyotes scene
« Reply #59 on: Feb 08, 2006, 12:46 PM »
I think the commuting was four hours in total per day:

herd - breakfast in camp
camp - herd
herd - lunch
camp - herd
herd - supper
camp - herd

So it might only have taken 30-45 minutes getting up there and often both of them are by the herd. Maybe Jack couldn´t stand being down there until supper?

I agree.  Don't forget the scene up with the herd (sounds better than flock anyway) at night looking back down into the valley showing the not too distant glow of the fire at camp.  Can you imagine the thoughts just knowing he was that close.  Your time estimate is good.  And forgive me but, with that in the distance and he is stuck with a "sheep flock".  ;)

I'm going to have to see BBM a third time before all the books and screenplay arrive.


lowpro