Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: jackster on Nov 06, 2007, 07:05 PM
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There are a lot of very interesting and serious threads going now. Here’s one that may be a little lighter and allow some interesting wanderings. A key element to the most critical scenes in the SS and Movie is Jack slipping during the wrestle match on Brokeback. He slips, knees Ennis in the nose and the blood flows over them and their clothing as Jack tries to comfort Ennis. This provides an extremely clever yet simple premise for Jack’s stealing the “blood-brother” shirt, and then later lovingly intertwining it with his own blood stained shirt. Damn, Annie is so good!
What do you think would have happened if Jack had not slipped? No bloody nose, (assuming they didn’t end up in fisticuffs) no symbolism for Jack to grasp. What would he have done? He surely still wanted some prize of Ennis’s, some scent, some remembrance, but what? Would he still have taken the shirt? I guess Ennis only had two shirts (we only see two) and he couldn’t have taken the one Ennis was wearing. Per the SS Ennis wore “no drawers, no socks, Jack noticed” (even though we see socks in the movie) so those are out. What’s the poor boy gonna do?
Anyone wanna’ do some dumbass guessin’?
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Sure, why the heck not? Let's see, could take a boot, but, too obvious, Ennis limping around in circles. I'd kinda think it would have
to still be a shirt, even unbloodied, as that just sort of fits. But there's another possibility. Jackster, remember the scene where it's
raining, and Ennis is laid back, whittling something, looking back over his shoulder? Remember the toy cowboy in Jack's room? Whatever
Ennis was carving, Jack might want that, to go along with the other.
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Interesting topic. O0 It's so hard to imagine him taking anything other than that bloody shirt because that is such a huge symbol in this story/movie and their love being sealed in blood is powerful. I'd like to think that he still would've taken something. I would have to say that he'd have taken the other shirt- not terribly original but what else is there. :s) I think blood or no blood it would have pretty much the same effect in the symbolism of a perpetual dozy embrace. That's my dumbass thought for right now. ;)
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I like it, LJN. And it makes sense to me because I'm kind of a 'token' person myself. I took a shirt of my boyfriend's to camp one summer (but he gave it to me to take, so he knew I had it), and another boy once gave me a shirt as a gift, and I slept with it for weeks. ::) That's why the minute Ennis said "I can't believe I left my damn shirt up there," and Jack got that look on his face, I knew exactly where that shirt was - stashed in with his own gear (though I had no idea that it would come up later, and had completely forgotten about it by the time Ennis went to LF). I was surprised to find that not many people I talked to caught that guilty look of Jack's, but then it turned out most of them weren't 'token' people. Makes me feel kind of stalkerish for trying to abscond with another guy's baseball cap once. ???
Tony, I could see him taking something like that carving as well, especially if it were a matter of trying to take something that wouldn't be noticed 'til later.
My first instinct would be the shirt though. What makes Annie's story so perfect is that there are so many elements that could only have played out the way they did, because of how intertwined all of those elements were. Kind of makes you wonder if Jack and Ennis ever had the power to change anything in their destiny. :s)
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What about the kercheif Jack uses to wipe Ennis's bleeding head when he got thrown from the horse?, (just my dumbass guess).
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Hi Jackster!!! Nice topic!!!
I think the most important question here is not "What’s the poor boy gonna steal to remember his love?" but "What would have happened if Jack never had stolen anything?" I mean, we think that Ennis finally knew that Jack loved him finding the shirts, and then he understood Jack's love and his own love. But if Jack never had stolen his shirt, when Ennis came back from Twist's ranch he only would be thinking about Old Twist's words about Jack living with other guy!!!! And he never would had discovered and undestood Jack's love, so I think it's possible that he had died thinking he was never loved..... :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(
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Hi Jackster!!! Nice topic!!!
I think the most important question here is not "What’s the poor boy gonna steal to remember his love?" but "What would have happened if Jack never had stolen anything?" I mean, we think that Ennis finally knew that Jack loved him finding the shirts, and then he understood Jack's love and his own love. But if Jack never had stolen his shirt, when Ennis came back from Twist's ranch he only would be thinking about Old Twist's words about Jack living with other guy!!!! And he never would had discovered and undestood Jack's love, so I think it's possible that he had died thinking he was never loved..... :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(
I could say that Jack didn´t need to steal anything from Ennis as a souvenir of their love,because the souvenirs were with him forever in the shape of something intangible,but more definitive:HIS FEELINGS. <^( But if I must confine myself,I´d say also that the symbolism of the shirts is so powerful,so hard and at the same time,so tender that it can´t be compared to the one from any other object. But,isn´t it a little(I can´t find a good word to define it in order to not hurt someone´s susceptibility)...that Ennis must discover the deepness of Jack´s love and even his own´s,by finding the shirts,after 20 years of constant show of this love?.I know it´s a little *o) and a little touchy also,but isn´t it true? ~)
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I don't think it's off topic, mpj. I think that's a big part of the tragedy; that it took Jack's death and finding the shirts for Ennis to finally reach the understanding and recognition of both Jack's love for him and his love for Jack. It's part of what makes the story an unbreakable circle.
Everything fell into place in just such a way that changing one element would effect all the others. If they had realized what they had in '63, they could have avoided getting stuck in marriages they didn't want, with the responsibility of children they couldn't leave. But it took those four years apart, and the attempt to live that other life, to realize how strong their connection was. I think that pattern followed them throughout their relationship and came full circle with Ennis finding the shirts. The tragedy it that for Ennis to finally understand their love, Jack has to die, but with Jack gone, there's nothing to be gained for them by Ennis reaching that understanding.
Jack could have taken any number of things to remember Ennis by, but it was the shirts that symbolized everything Ennis needed to find in that closet that day. Annie Proulx amazes me. :)
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What about the kercheif Jack uses to wipe Ennis's bleeding head when he got thrown from the horse?, (just my dumbass guess).
This is a good one, manhattangirl! I would think that too would have had some trace of Ennis's blood. But I am sure Jack washed it soon after. I suspect he took the bloodied shirt on impulse.
In any cse, Jack would have had Ennis's blood on HIS shirt. He would have a memento, albeit only one side of a dyptich.
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These are Great replies here, all.
“diptych”, uh oh, is this an art major? :) FC you’re the first person I’ve heard who knew right away what happened when the shirt turned up missin’. It never occurred to me. I’d be interested to know if anyone else (without prior knowledge) saw through that lie right away. I like the carved horse idea Tony, think Jack would have enough nerve to ask Ennis for it? I mean at that point they were more than just “friends”, ;) I think Ennis would have been kinda’ touched by this request don’t you? Maybe that would have made things work out a little different? :s)
It occurred to me in reading these, damm isn’t Jack sorta’ cruel here? Here’s poor Ennis, the boy shows up with a paper grocery bag holding EVERYTHING he owns. And sure enough, this dude Jack manages to nick off with one of his shirts. Gosh, give the poor guy a break!
Since the selection of Ennis paraphernalia is so small, what about one of those items they shared? Some of that bedding would have a pretty good scent to it by summers end ^-^, or how ‘bout the tent? Jack could keep that like a sacred teepee where they shared, ahem, so much. Of course there’s the saddle where Ennis’s butt spent so much time, but we maybe getting a little too close the bone here. ;)
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thanks for clearing that up, jackster, I thought I was being call a "dipstick" LOL. (only kidding, tpe). ;D
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I thought I was being call a "dipstick" LOL. (only kidding, tpe). ;D
:8 :8 :8 :8
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I remember reading a post ages ago in which the author suggested that the little horse with rider that Ennis picks up and looks at in Jack's room WAS the one that Ennis had been carving. Obviously, intending that Ennis gave it to Jack. I thought this, also, so just thought everyone took that for granted. I just always thought that Jack did have that token from Ennis.
So far as the shirts go, the blood angle certainly adds more meaning to the shirts -- a much deeper, darker, sensual meaning. But I think Jack would have taken the shirt anyhow. As has been pointed out, Ennis really didn't have anything else for him to take. Also, something that a person has worn is so symbolic of that person -- holds their form and their smell -- no longer just a mute piece of cloth. I think Jack held that shirt to his face and breathed in the essence of Ennis many times over the years -- everytime he went to his folks' place. While the blood adds symbolism, and I LOVE the idea of their blood being mingled, I think, even without the blood, the entwined shirts are meaningful and beautiful.
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. . . While the blood adds symbolism, and I LOVE the idea of their blood being mingled, I think, even without the blood, the entwined shirts are meaningful and beautiful.
lamusica: I think your right, the shirt still seems like a good candidate. But have I missed something major here all this time? I've always thought it was Ennis's blood mingled on both of the shirts, was Jack bleeding here too?
The carved horse(s). I've checked these out pretty closely on slo-mo. It's difficult to imagine Ennis being able to carve that little horse he picks up in Jack's room, it is a really detailed piece. IMHO if that was the intended idea here, the prop guys would have used something much more "folk-art" in character, and of course Ennis would have rightly wanted to take it with him from Lighting Flat too.
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The minute I saw the horse in Jack's bedroom, I assumed it was the finished piece that Ennis had carved and given to Jack. I assumed it was a gift to Jack that he took to his folks' place and left ( then later left the shirts) so he could keep them and have them when he went back there. Lureen would have asked questions had he kept them with him and tried to bring them into their house. Well, that was my take on it, and I know others thought the same from that old thread and the discussion there. You are right about the finished project being much more sophisticated, but when we see Ennis working on the carving, he was just beginning. He had a lot of time on his hands, so who's to say that he wasn't an accomplished woodcarver. Many old cowboys engaged in woodcarving, so it's no major stretch.
My take on the shirts was that Ennis was injured first, accidently, by Jack and his nose bled. He wiped his shirtsleeve over his nose, thus getting the blood on it. Then he punched Jack and grappled with him on the ground. I assumed some of Jack's blood got on Ennis's shirt, also. While I did not see Jack bleed, he did wipe his nose after Ennis punched him which led me to believe he, too, had a bloody nose. Thus there was blood on his own shirtsleeve, also. At least that's how it looked to me. I will pay especiial attention to this scene next time I watch the film.
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Wow, one day's worth of posting!
Here is throwing my hat into the mix.
babytammy7, great question, what if Jack never stole that shirt!? The movie would end so differently.
I also thought that cowboy on horseback was carved by Ennis? I thought of it right the way, when Ennis pick it up almost immediately upon entering the room. And he had tears in his eyes when he put it down. Thinking that Jack kept this little token of their time together all this time. I am fairly certain it is what Ennis was carving because the horse's posture look almost exactly the same, with its hind legs lower than the front, and the distances between the legs are in the same proportion. Only the cast and crew, and Ang Lee would know for certain. However, I would be very surprised that with all the careful attention to detail elsewhere in this move, if this little coincidence was left to chance.
I agree with lamusica that Jack would never take anything from Brokeback Mountain to Texas. He never even told Lureen about it. That's why she was caught off guard when Ennis told her they herded sheep there one summer back in '63. And of course, Ennis would have figured on that right the way. But hiding the shirts in a nook in the closet was a much more powerful message which tells Ennis that Jack "treasured these shirts" and kept them unwashed for obvious reason.
I think there is another reason why Jack stole that particular shirt, even without the blood, which Ennis himself wiped there, when his nose was bloodied. Jack wiped his own sleeve to clean Ennis' still bleeding nose, just like he did with the kerchief when Ennis fell in the encounter with the bear. And the reason is this. That shirt of Ennis' was Jack's favorite. You can see him washing it in the river in the raw, wearing only his boots, after their FNIT. The short story has this scene and poignantly described the shirt as Ennis only other shirt.
What makes the two shirts even more powerful symbols than the blood brother angle, is the fact that Jack put Ennis' shirt inside of his...just like in the motel scene when he wraps his arms around Ennis...And when Ennis found the shirts, he instinctively took the sleeves and put his arms around them, like Jack did to him...another reason why he reversed the shirts...he was able to show the same love to Jack that Jack showed to him.
And what makes me think that Annie is such a genius is the subtle meaning of finding the shirts for Ennis, not only as proof of Jack's love, but also of Jack's Ma's acceptance of them. I didn't pick up on this until the discussion in the forum. As I verbalize, or write down the words, I realized what must be true, and confirmed by Roberta Maxwell's interview.
That's why I love you all in your discussions. Thank you jackster for starting this topic.
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These are Great replies here, all.
“diptych”, uh oh, is this an art major? :) FC you’re the first person I’ve heard who knew right away what happened when the shirt turned up missin’. It never occurred to me. I’d be interested to know if anyone else (without prior knowledge) saw through that lie right away. I like the carved horse idea Tony, think Jack would have enough nerve to ask Ennis for it? I mean at that point they were more than just “friends”, ;) I think Ennis would have been kinda’ touched by this request don’t you? Maybe that would have made things work out a little different? :s)
It occurred to me in reading these, damm isn’t Jack sorta’ cruel here? Here’s poor Ennis, the boy shows up with a paper grocery bag holding EVERYTHING he owns. And sure enough, this dude Jack manages to nick off with one of his shirts. Gosh, give the poor guy a break!
Since the selection of Ennis paraphernalia is so small, what about one of those items they shared? Some of that bedding would have a pretty good scent to it by summers end ^-^, or how ‘bout the tent? Jack could keep that like a sacred teepee where they shared, ahem, so much. Of course there’s the saddle where Ennis’s butt spent so much time, but we maybe getting a little too close the bone here. ;)
But they had to return the bedding and the tent, no? And if Jack took any of Aguirre's items, I am sure that he wouldn't be let-off.
Perhaps jack should have found an opportunity where he could have snipped a lock of Ennis's hair. It's an age-old practice, although I admit that it might sound mawkish by today's standards.
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I remember reading a post ages ago in which the author suggested that the little horse with rider that Ennis picks up and looks at in Jack's room WAS the one that Ennis had been carving. Obviously, intending that Ennis gave it to Jack. I thought this, also, so just thought everyone took that for granted. I just always thought that Jack did have that token from Ennis.
So far as the shirts go, the blood angle certainly adds more meaning to the shirts -- a much deeper, darker, sensual meaning. But I think Jack would have taken the shirt anyhow. As has been pointed out, Ennis really didn't have anything else for him to take. Also, something that a person has worn is so symbolic of that person -- holds their form and their smell -- no longer just a mute piece of cloth. I think Jack held that shirt to his face and breathed in the essence of Ennis many times over the years -- everytime he went to his folks' place. While the blood adds symbolism, and I LOVE the idea of their blood being mingled, I think, even without the blood, the entwined shirts are meaningful and beautiful.
I think that the thought of not seeing Ennis again made Jack desperate enough to take anything from Ennis. The blood I think was in a sense incidental: because Ennis had to change shirts after the fight, Jack had a wonderful opportunity. no? The blood certainly gave it greater meaning.
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What makes the two shirts even more powerful symbols than the blood brother angle...
Yes, the connotations are so rich, that the blood has become as significant as (if not more significant than) the shirts. The shirts become more than just shirts. They become silent witnesses to a compact.
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Yes, the connotations are so rich, that the blood has become as significant as (if not more significant than) the shirts. The shirts become more than just shirts. They become silent witnesses to a compact.
oh...if only those shirts can speak...what they would say of the love that is a force of nature. <^(
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oh...if only those shirts can speak...what they would say of the love that is a force of nature. <^(
In a very real sense, they still spoke to Ennis in the closet, even after nearly 20 years...
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These are Great replies here, all.
“diptych”, uh oh, is this an art major? :) FC you’re the first person I’ve heard who knew right away what happened when the shirt turned up missin’. It never occurred to me. I’d be interested to know if anyone else (without prior knowledge) saw through that lie right away. I like the carved horse idea Tony, think Jack would have enough nerve to ask Ennis for it? I mean at that point they were more than just “friends”, ;) I think Ennis would have been kinda’ touched by this request don’t you? Maybe that would have made things work out a little different? :s)
It occurred to me in reading these, damm isn’t Jack sorta’ cruel here? Here’s poor Ennis, the boy shows up with a paper grocery bag holding EVERYTHING he owns. And sure enough, this dude Jack manages to nick off with one of his shirts. Gosh, give the poor guy a break!
Since the selection of Ennis paraphernalia is so small, what about one of those items they shared? Some of that bedding would have a pretty good scent to it by summers end ^-^, or how ‘bout the tent? Jack could keep that like a sacred teepee where they shared, ahem, so much. Of course there’s the saddle where Ennis’s butt spent so much time, but we maybe getting a little too close the bone here. ;)
Jackster,
I'm trying to picture Jack as he WAS the one dismantling the camp, he had the perfect opportunity to take anything that Ennis was'nt gonna miss right away. His hat? nope Ennis was seldom seen without it. Don't know how many pairs of Jeans he owned , probably 2 , but I'll venture a dumbass guess that Jack took the shirt, not only because of the blood which no doubt symbolized something to Jack, but because the shirt had arms, a collar, and a torso. all the required elements of an "embrace" . The way Jack displayed the shirts as Ennis found them told the story he wanted to tell Ennis or anyone who would look at them. I think Mrs. Twist definitly "got it". Ennis's razor? Nah, a belt, maybe a towel, nope, it had to be the shirt, It looked like Ennis just as Ennis , in the closet wrapped Jack's sleeve around him in an embracing gesture says he got Jack's message loud and clear.
Ennis was digging through his bag when he stated " can't believe I left my damn shirt up there" and Jack's little "play-off of the fact that he had it and quickly changes the subject....priceless. I'm in the "did'nt get it till the end" camp, but when I watch the scene in Signal post Brokeback, Jack 's actions can only be described as "clever" .If Ennis would have instead ask Jack if " Did you see my blue shirt'? Jack would have to out right lie , thought he had it somewhere in that truck. What a little thief! ;D &*& ;D
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Jackster,
I'm trying to picture Jack as he WAS the one dismantling the camp, he had the perfect opportunity to take anything that Ennis was'nt gonna miss right away. His hat? nope Ennis was seldom seen without it. Don't know how many pairs of Jeans he owned , probably 2 , but I'll venture a dumbass guess that Jack took the shirt, not only because of the blood which no doubt symbolized something to Jack, but because the shirt had arms, a collar, and a torso. all the required elements of an "embrace" . The way Jack displayed the shirts as Ennis found them told the story he wanted to tell Ennis or anyone who would look at them. I think Mrs. Twist definitly "got it". Ennis's razor? Nah, a belt, maybe a towel, nope, it had to be the shirt, It looked like Ennis just as Ennis , in the closet wrapped Jack's sleeve around him in an embracing gesture says he got Jack's message loud and clear.
Ennis was digging through his bag when he stated " can't believe I left my damn shirt up there" and Jack's little "play-off of the fact that he had it and quickly changes the subject....priceless. I'm in the "did'nt get it till the end" camp, but when I watch the scene in Signal post Brokeback, Jack 's actions can only be described as "clever" .If Ennis would have instead ask Jack if " Did you see my blue shirt'? Jack would have to out right lie , thought he had it somewhere in that truck. What a little thief! ;D &*& ;D
It's kind of funny. I noticed Jack's little embarrassed acknowledgment when Ennis said he left the shirt up there, and knew it was him who took the shirt. I didn't catch the change of subject or the significance of the shirt missing until later. Just thought that's what Jack would do when he is in love with Ennis. Guess I didn't think highly of the man. And I also noticed the shirts flipped around in Ennis' trailer. Again didn't catch the significance of it until later in the forum. I guess I am observant but clueless when it comes to emotional clues and significance. One of those people who see but don't perceive. It explains a lot of the drama in my life.
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Just came across this thread. A lot of interesting discussion.
It's hard for me to imagine Jack holding on to anything other than the blood-stained shirts. They symbolized so much to Ennis when he discovered them. I don't know how forgiving I would have been had someone socked me after accidentally hitting them followed by a profuse and caring apology. Obviously Ennis's punch had little impact on Jack's feelings for Ennis. Jack likely looked past Ennis's surface anger and saw his frustration. Their time together was being cut short and Ennis was a lot less accepting of the situation. Jack had to believe on some level he meant something more to Ennis than Ennis was willing to admit. It was reason enough to take the shirt. I can't think of anything else in Ennis's possession that would have been worth hanging on to.
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Just came across this thread. A lot of interesting discussion.
It's hard for me to imagine Jack holding on to anything other than the blood-stained shirts. They symbolized so much to Ennis when he discovered them. I don't know how forgiving I would have been had someone socked me after accidentally hitting them followed by a profuse and caring apology. Obviously Ennis's punch had little impact on Jack's feelings for Ennis. Jack likely looked past Ennis's surface anger and saw his frustration. Their time together was being cut short and Ennis was a lot less accepting of the situation. Jack had to believe on some level he meant something more to Ennis than Ennis was willing to admit. It was reason enough to take the shirt. I can't think of anything else in Ennis's possession that would have been worth hanging on to.
Beautiful post, CSC!
I would even risk saying that the punch simply confirmed for Jack Ennis's true feelings -- that all his pen-up feelings couldn't really be hidden underneath Ennis's seemingly stoic exterior. I think for the first time ever, Jack realized how much all of this meant to Ennis.
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I would even risk saying that the punch simply confirmed for Jack Ennis's true feelings -- that all his pen-up feelings couldn't really be hidden underneath Ennis's seemingly stoic exterior. I think for the first time ever, Jack realized how much all of this meant to Ennis.
I agree. Had they avoided the altercation I'm certain Jack would have taken something to remember that Summer. The shirt just symbolized so much more.
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Great posts CSC and TPE :)
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I agree. Had they avoided the altercation I'm certain Jack would have taken something to remember that Summer. The shirt just symbolized so much more.
I think in many ways, this is the bookened to the scene in Jacks room many years later. At that point, it was Ennis's turn to realize how deeply Jack loved him.
Thanks LJN. :)
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It is a bookend scene. I was having my "out there" thoughts and was wondering if it would have been any different had it been Jack's blood that spilled in the fight. Was it important that it was Ennis's blood? Then I figured it was a full circle moment- Jack (the ministering angel) was tending to Ennis during paradise lost and then 20 years later when Ennis is lost and Jack lost to him, there is the ministering angel again- almost as if it was a continuance.
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LJN, that's beautiful. :\'( <^(
Jack as the ministering angel is a theme that emerges throughout the story, and never more than in those two scenes and the final confrontation.
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It is a bookend scene. I was having my "out there" thoughts and was wondering if it would have been any different had it been Jack's blood that spilled in the fight. Was it important that it was Ennis's blood? Then I figured it was a full circle moment- Jack (the ministering angel) was tending to Ennis during paradise lost and then 20 years later when Ennis is lost and Jack lost to him, there is the ministering angel again- almost as if it was a continuance.
ecce ego mittam angelum meum qui praecedat te et custodiat in via et introducat ad locum quem paravi
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Thomas, what does that say? :)
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Thomas, what does that say? :)
Behold, I will send my angel, who shall go before thee, and keep thee in thy journey, and bring thee into the place that I have prepared.
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Thanks. Of course I'm tearing up now.
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Oh man, me too. :\'( <^(
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Thanks LJN and Barb. I was about to put the weeping emoticon, but thought that it was not needed.
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Beautiful posts here LJN and TPE. It sounds like the general consensus is that there is no real substitute for Ennis’s shirt. That even if Jack had not accidentally bloodied Ennis’s nose and maybe (we can assume) Ennis did not punch Jack, Jack would still have been moved to steal the shirt.
Why? Jack could have guessed that Ennis wasn’t going far from where they were, all the clues were there, he wasn’t going to disappear. For himself he must have felt he was the one moving on, “he was crazy to be somewhere, anywhere, else than Lightning Flat” just didn’t know where. Maybe he would see Ennis again, but maybe not.
Life is so curious at times. Big events seem to follow in the footsteps of small, even unavoidable, unpredictable, random events. This whole scene develops from the capricious play of the weather, “Says there’s another storm comin’, movin’ in from the Pacific. Worse than this one” Suddenly playtime is over and real life is back, no wonder Ennis had to go and sit by himself on the hillside. Like the only curve on Deadhorse Road, he’s the victim of circumstance again.
Like Ennis and Jack meeting at all, life’s great beauty and tragedy are all rolled into one. Annie is really a master; she deserves every praise she gets.
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She sure does. O0
I'm not sure I see Jack as thinking that he's moving on, at least not from Ennis anyway. His feelings at the time of parting that summer are not addressed in the SS, although it's only too clear in the movie that he doesn't want them to end. And of course, he comes back for Ennis and then clings tightly to him for the rest of his life, so his taking the shirt makes sense by the end in the context of everything that has gone before. In that moment, though, I think he already knew that he might not see Ennis again, but probably more from the circumstances forcing both of them to part than a conscious choice on his part to do so. Either way, he knew he wanted a piece of Ennis to hold onto, some part of their summer that he could take back into real life with him. Does any of that make sense?
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Yeah FC, I'd agree. Didn't mean to imply that Jack thought he was movin' on past or away from Ennis. Only that he knew his life may take him other places where he wouldn't be able see Ennis who he figured would still be around central Wyoming. Jack was headed out to Texas, the Army, rodeoin', etc., somewhere else, even though he thought he might come back next summer. That was the sense of "moving on" I meant, in a physical sense not an emotional sense. Sorry for the confusion. I agree, I think Jack knew Ennis was locked into his heart somehow, maybe even he didn't even know how much in '63.
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%&) Of course. That makes total sense.
"I agree, I think Jack knew Ennis was locked into his heart somehow, maybe even he didn't even know how much in '63."
Well put. O0
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[...] a full circle moment- Jack (the ministering angel) was tending to Ennis during paradise lost and then 20 years later when Ennis is lost and Jack lost to him, there is the ministering angel again- almost as if it was a continuance.
ecce ego mittam angelum meum qui praecedat te et custodiat in via et introducat ad locum quem paravi
Behold, I will send my angel, who shall go before thee, and keep thee in thy journey, and bring thee into the place that I have prepared.
[...] he already knew that he might not see Ennis again, but probably more from the circumstances forcing both of them to part than a conscious choice on his part to do so. Either way, he knew he wanted a piece of Ennis to hold onto, some part of their summer that he could take back into real life with him. Does any of that make sense?
[...] I think Jack knew Ennis was locked into his heart somehow, maybe even he didn't even know how much in '63.
The angels in our lives are those with a piece of us in their hearts...what does that say to me when I have taken into my heart a piece of EnnisJack and all the wonderful people here?
<^(
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Indeed, very well said , I both love and dislike this scene. I love it for it's emotional impact. Jack is still sporting the black eye, yet he knows what he has found and knows Ennis found it too. Had the shirt tucked away for himself in case the scneario that DID happen , happens. After falling for each other on BBM Jack sees it's special meaning , but it's slipping away from him. He has to know, so he asks "Gonna do this again next summer"? Has to have some idea of where he stands at this point.. I feel he Knew what he wanted to happen for sure. Ennis's thoughts on the matter remained a mystery until Ennis brings up marrying Alma anyway despite of it all. When Ennis said "well I guess I'll see ya around then" it was so final. I almost died for Jack then and there. He never came right out and asked Ennis bluntly or say what he really wanted to say at the time but Jack did'nt exactly beat around the bush either. Ennis knew what Jack wanted to happen. Jack did'nt want it to end there. Niether did Ennis, not really.
I dislike it for the sheer realities of the two characters. Ennis is denying himself true love and knew it. The experiences on BBM with Jack changed something inside him. Made him vulnerable for the first time in his life. He knows Jack is the key to unlock him, the one who made him feel open and free. He knows he is throwing true happiness away with both hands. He had an out though, he was promised to Alma in marriage.. and he used that for cover at the moment, but moments later we see the manifestation of his true feelings and how it affected him concerning letting Jack drive off confused and hurt. He may have been confused and conflicted himself perhaps even mad at him self for letting it happen, but one thing's for sure if he coud've just found the words, instead and not kept himself on "safety" and saying in so many words., :A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do " during that whole conversation, It would have givin him and Jack some hope. Just a little anyway....but that's Ennis bein Ennis. Just a few thoughts.
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Beautiful posts here LJN and TPE. It sounds like the general consensus is that there is no real substitute for Ennis’s shirt. That even if Jack had not accidentally bloodied Ennis’s nose and maybe (we can assume) Ennis did not punch Jack, Jack would still have been moved to steal the shirt.
Why? Jack could have guessed that Ennis wasn’t going far from where they were, all the clues were there, he wasn’t going to disappear. For himself he must have felt he was the one moving on, “he was crazy to be somewhere, anywhere, else than Lightning Flat” just didn’t know where. Maybe he would see Ennis again, but maybe not.
Life is so curious at times. Big events seem to follow in the footsteps of small, even unavoidable, unpredictable, random events. This whole scene develops from the capricious play of the weather, “Says there’s another storm comin’, movin’ in from the Pacific. Worse than this one” Suddenly playtime is over and real life is back, no wonder Ennis had to go and sit by himself on the hillside. Like the only curve on Deadhorse Road, he’s the victim of circumstance again.
Like Ennis and Jack meeting at all, life’s great beauty and tragedy are all rolled into one. Annie is really a master; she deserves every praise she gets.
Thanks Jackster.
I do feel that the shirt can't be substituted for something else.
But I think an image that is equally certral to all this is the struggle between Ennis and Jack. I think the shirt sort of represents this entire struggle, and is symbolic of their whole relationship.
The first time I saw this, it reminded me so much of Jacob wrestling with the angel. Some would say that it is Ennis wrestling with his inner demons, but I had wondered whether Proulx herself was somehow thinking about this biblical passage when she referred to Jack as an Angel:
The closet was a shallow cavity with a wooden rod braced across, a faded cretonne curtain on a string closing it off from the rest of the room. In the closet hung two pairs of jeans crease-ironed and folded neatly over wire hangers, on the floor a pair of worn packer boots he thought he remembered. At the north end of the closet a tiny jog in the wall made a slight hiding place and here, stiff with long suspension from a nail, hung a shirt. He lifted it off the nail. Jack’s old shirt from Brokeback days. The dried blood on the sleeve was his own blood, a gushing nosebleed on the last afternoon on the mountain when Jack, in their contortionistic grappling and wrestling, had slammed Ennis’s nose hard with his knee. He had stanched the blood, which was everywhere, all over both of them, with his shirtsleeve, but the stanching hadn’t held, because Ennis had suddenly swung from the deck and laid the ministering angel out in the wild columbine, wings folded.
And in Genesis:
And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
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Oh Thomas, you got me again. :\'( <^(
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Oh Thomas, you got me again. :\'( <^(
Thanks FlwrChild. For me, the blessing on BBM was the benediction of blood, and the shirts bore witness that love had prevailed.
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. . . But I think an image that is equally certral to all this is the struggle between Ennis and Jack. I think the shirt sort of represents this entire struggle, and is symbolic of their whole relationship. . . .
Fascinating Thomas -
This whole blood aspect I find very interesting. It’s not really why I started this thread but it’s an interesting direction and directly related. I’ve felt that the fact that it was Ennis’s blood that was shed to be really interesting, it’s Ennis’s blood, but it’s Jack who is the one who sees the symbolic here and steals away the shirt (and it’s Jack that then becomes the martyr).
Maybe there is something deeper here, we always think of Jack and the shirts as shining a light for Ennis and his late realization of Jack’s love. However, maybe it is Ennis, or Ennis’s blood that first makes Jack realize the real depth his own love for Ennis, maybe not then and there on the mountain, but maybe later, years later, fours years later to be exact. Maybe Jack experiences the same kind of moment with those shirts up in Lightning Flat and then realizes how much he needs Ennis and that’s what energizes him to send the postcard in '67.
Then there is the whole thing with the dead sheep and the sheep’s blood, a whole other blood story. I think it is fascinating that Annie uses this blood symbol, as you have so intelligently pointed out Thomas, one of the most ancient symbols of all (along with sheep herding an ancient occupation).
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Fascinating Thomas -
This whole blood aspect I find very interesting. It’s not really why I started this thread but it’s an interesting direction and directly related. I’ve felt that the fact that it was Ennis’s blood that was shed to be really interesting, it’s Ennis’s blood, but it’s Jack who is the one who sees the symbolic here and steals away the shirt (and it’s Jack that then becomes the martyr).
Maybe there is something deeper here, we always think of Jack and the shirts as shining a light for Ennis and his late realization of Jack’s love. However, maybe it is Ennis, or Ennis’s blood that first makes Jack realize the real depth his own love for Ennis, maybe not then and there on the mountain, but maybe later, years later, fours years later to be exact. Maybe Jack experiences the same kind of moment with those shirts up in Lightning Flat and then realizes how much he needs Ennis and that’s what energizes him to send the postcard in '67.
Then there is the whole thing with the dead sheep and the sheep’s blood, a whole other blood story. I think it is fascinating that Annie uses this blood symbol, as you have so intelligently pointed out Thomas, one of the most ancient symbols of all (along with sheep herding an ancient occupation).
Thanks jackster. Wonderful thread.
I too felt that Ennis's blood on the shirts found its counterpoint in Jack's martyrdom. Personally, I think both of them found their love as enshrined in the two shirts. Remember that it was Jack that protected Ennis shirt for nearly 20 years, as if it were a host in a tabernacle. It probably served as a witness for Jack throughout the years -- a witness to his abiding love for Ennis.
And yes, I think the dead sheep is a symbol of Jack.
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Fascinating Thomas -
This whole blood aspect I find very interesting. It’s not really why I started this thread but it’s an interesting direction and directly related. I’ve felt that the fact that it was Ennis’s blood that was shed to be really interesting, it’s Ennis’s blood, but it’s Jack who is the one who sees the symbolic here and steals away the shirt (and it’s Jack that then becomes the martyr).
Maybe there is something deeper here, we always think of Jack and the shirts as shining a light for Ennis and his late realization of Jack’s love. However, maybe it is Ennis, or Ennis’s blood that first makes Jack realize the real depth his own love for Ennis, maybe not then and there on the mountain, but maybe later, years later, fours years later to be exact. Maybe Jack experiences the same kind of moment with those shirts up in Lightning Flat and then realizes how much he needs Ennis and that’s what energizes him to send the postcard in '67.
Then there is the whole thing with the dead sheep and the sheep’s blood, a whole other blood story. I think it is fascinating that Annie uses this blood symbol, as you have so intelligently pointed out Thomas, one of the most ancient symbols of all (along with sheep herding an ancient occupation).
Interesting discussion, fellas.
The first blood in the movie was Ennis coming on a bear...Jack's ministering resulted in their fingers touching, and electric sparks flew.
Ennis blood stained shirt was also the shirt that he wore most of the time on Brokeback Mountain. Jack saw Ennis almost the entire time in that shirt. SNIT, Ennis was wearing that shirt. Jack was buck naked washing that shirt, and also his own blue denim shirt after FNIT, and before SNIT. So he planned to be nice and clean for Ennis SNIT. No wonder Ennis buried his face on Jack's chest.
Dead sheep was symbolic of Earl, not Jack...and the dead coyote was symbolic of Ennis's revenge on homophobia, his resolve to go with his feelings, no fear, no reins, no regrets.
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sheep was symbolic of Earl, not Jack...and the dead coyote was symbolic of Ennis's revenge on homophobia, his resolve to go with his feelings, no fear, no reins, no regrets.
Lance, I can't recall right now, but there is a whole thread devoted to this topic. You will be interested in reading that.
The dead sheep, Earl, and Jack are all thematically linked, although I have discussed elsewhere why the dead sheep is really symbolic of Jack (as much as Earl forshadowed Jack's inevitable fate.) All three are linked thematically by the use of the "death music" -- played first during the scene of the dead sheep, then heard in the Earl and Rich story, is heard again when Ennis looks at the postcard with "deceased" written over it, and finally, throughout the scenes in Lightning Flat.
Finally, I have pointed out in numerous threads the explicit classical allusion of the dead sheep scene to the famous "ET IN ARCADIA EGO". The fulfilment of this allusion finds meaning only in Jack's eventual death, years later.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2Fb%2Fb9%2FEt-in-Arcadia-ego.jpg%2F713px-Et-in-Arcadia-ego.jpg&hash=9e583f799fdda301bee386511fb4d32c9b4ae8ca)
Exstinctum Nymphae crudeli funere Daphnin
flebant - vos coryli testes et flumina Nymphis -
cum complexa sui corpus miserabile nati
atque deos atque astra vocat crudelia mater.
non ulli pastos illis egere diebus
frigida, Daphni, boves ad flumina, nulla neque amnem
libavit quadrupes nec graminis attigit herbam.
Daphni, tuum Poenos etiam ingemuisse leones
interitum montesque feri silvaeque loquuntur.
Daphnis et Armenias curru subiungere tigris
instituit, Daphnis thiasos inducere Bacchi
et foliis lentas intexere mollibus hastas.
vitis ut arboribus decori est, ut vitibus uvae,
ut gregibus tauri, segetes ut pinguibus arvis,
tu decus omne tuis. postquam te fata tulerunt,
ipsa Pales agros atque ipse reliquit Apollo.
grandia saepe quibus mandavimus hordea sulcis,
infelix lolium et steriles nascuntur avenae;
pro molli viola, pro purpureo narcisso
carduus et spinis surgit paliurus acutis.
spargite humum foliis, inducite fontibus umbras,
pastores - mandat fieri sibi talia Daphnis -
et tumulum facite et tumulo superaddite carmen:
'Daphnis ego in silvis, hinc usque ad sidera notus,
formosi pecoris custos, formosior ipse.'
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I may be wrong, but how male is it. Blood shed during a battle, a token of the love were the shirts, was Jack the victor, Ennis had to face who he was with Jack, and now had to face himself without him, how scared could he have been of that. No flowers, no hearts. But blood stains on a two old shirts, a possession prized by two who didn't have much to start with turned this item into a "Holy Grail".
Women sheds blood during birth, Men during battle. This was the battle on Brokeback, love, the giving and taking of love.
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Great explanation tpe, I was just asking for this when you posted. I will do some looking for the thread. Great pic too, you’ve got to be an art major to come up with great stuff like that so quickly!
I’ve always seen the dead sheep as symbolic of the death of Ennis’s innocence or virginity and not so much a foreshadowing of Jack’s fate, but I think both views are probable.
LanceC, what an interesting observation on Ennis’s “first blood” being mopped up by Jack that night at the campfire, I never made that connection. %&)
So many smart people here, it’s continually amazing!!
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Great explanation tpe, I was just asking for this when you posted. I will do some looking for the thread. Great pic too, you’ve got to be an art major to come up with great stuff like that so quickly!
I’ve always seen the dead sheep as symbolic of the death of Ennis’s innocence or virginity and not so much a foreshadowing of Jack’s fate, but I think both views are probable.
LanceC, what an interesting observation on Ennis’s “first blood” being mopped up by Jack that night at the campfire, I never made that connection. %&)
So many smart people here, it’s continually amazing!!
jackster , I am just amazed at how many probable meanings the shirts, the sheep, and BBM itself come to life in each of us. Your interpretation of the dead sheep makes as much sense as mine or lance's. It's been two years since the movie, and we continue to find new things to share with each other.
Back to the shirts: the notion of "first blood" is indeed apt. This connects with manhattangirl's image of battle.
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I see the dead sheep as a symbol of sacrifice. Connecting what was going on in FNIT at the same time the sheep was killed., in a way cleansing the way for Ennis to discover a new chapter in his life. A symbolic veil lifted from his eyes and Ennis finally took a good look at what was happening to him.The expression on Ennis's face as he viewed the sheep was not necessarily a negative one. more of an inquisitive nature, An acknowledgement .The sacrifice had been made in order for Ennis to see a new and different life. SNIT, Ennis found "permission" to further discover and uncover more of himself, when before he would never have thought it possible. Blood shed in his favor.
Ennis may have connected that with Jack having to die in sacrifice in order that Ennis may be " enlightened to the true meaning of his experiences with Jack....particularly the depth of Jack's love for him in the end. If Jack had'nt slipped, and taken the shirt, Ennis would have been living in darkness, instead of seeing the light. Now he could live in the light of Jack's love forever. He swore to it. Just a thought.
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I see the dead sheep as a symbol of sacrifice. Connecting what was going on in FNIT at the same time the sheep was killed., in a way cleansing the way for Ennis to discover a new chapter in his life. A symbolic veil lifted from his eyes and Ennis finally took a good look at what was happening to him.The expression on Ennis's face as he viewed the sheep was not necessarily a negative one. more of an inquisitive nature, An acknowledgement .The sacrifice had been made in order for Ennis to see a new and different life. SNIT, Ennis found "permission" to further discover and uncover more of himself, when before he would never have thought it possible. Blood shed in his favor.
Ennis may have connected that with Jack having to die in sacrifice in order that Ennis may be " enlightened to the true meaning of his experiences with Jack....particularly the depth of Jack's love for him in the end. If Jack had'nt slipped, and taken the shirt, Ennis would have been living in darkness, instead of seeing the light. Now he could live in the light of Jack's love forever. He swore to it. Just a thought.
Well, in many ways, both the sheep and shirts do symbolize sacrifice, no? Yes, the blood is Ennis's blood, but at that point, it became a universal symbol of blood being shed in the name of love, I suppose.
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Wonderful insights. I love seeing all the different interpretations of the symbolism. And what is really remarkable is how well they all seem to flow together. Thank you all. :)