Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: athena0204 on Mar 24, 2008, 03:51 PM
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What do you think Ennis's father would have done if he were still alive and known about Jack and Ennis? Do you think he would have killed his own son? Because I am thinking he really would have. In fact, in the short story, when Ennis and Jack are in the motel room holding each other on the bed, doesn't Ennis tell Jack that if his father were to walk through the door at that moment he would kill them both? Knowing what we know about Ennis's father, I think he really would have killed both of them. He would have been very ashamed to have a gay son, to the point where he would feel hate for him. Jack's father probably knew Jack was gay...and I don't think he was real fond of that fact, but he wouldn't go so far as to kill his own son. Ennis's father, on the other hand, seems like the kind of guy that wouldn't even hestitate.
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Good question... my feelings are mixed.
1. Ennis not loosing his parents would have been raised by them, maybe going to scholl longer and not looking for jobs when he was a teenager.
2. Would he have met Jack then? My bet he would have helped on his parent's ranch.
3. In any case, finding his son is gay, we could expect some violent reaction, I guess he could have killed Ennis.
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I really believe that if Ennis said this to Jack when they were in the motel,was because he knew him too well in his fanaticism and homophobia.Along the years he was supposed to have had some proofs of this and the almost total confirmation of his participation in Earl's death...
Jack's father,on his side,knew his son's homosexuality,that's for sure,and this knowledge made him despise Jack more still; he was never a too loving father,he never trusted in his son's abilities and he never gave him support enough...All these reactions had a confirmation the day he knew the truth about Jack,as a kind of telling to himself he was right because his son was not "man" enough...-and that for this reason he deserved his scorn...-.Ennis father seemed to have been a much loving and supporting one,but surely because he had taken for granted that his son answered to the "macho man" image he believed as the only respectful.Feeling deceived in his deepest beliefs in spite of being his own son-or better said,precisely for being his own son-I do believe could have taken this man to an unexpected reaction.A man like that doesn't raise a son who can end by being a "queer"¡.
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Good question... my feelings are mixed.
1. Ennis not loosing his parents would have been raised by them, maybe going to scholl longer and not looking for jobs when he was a teenager.
2. Would he have met Jack then? My bet he would have helped on his parent's ranch.
3. In any case, finding his son is gay, we could expect some violent reaction, I guess he could have killed Ennis.
I think you are right chameau.
I think when Ennis's father was still alive he would never met Jack.
If he did met jack when his father was still alive, he was raised as a homophobic i guess.
The influence of his father being homophobic would have more effect i think because the father lived longer and had more time to kill any ideas of being attractive to another man.
If the dad finding Ennis gay, all hell break loose and would have murdered him for sure.
So i'm glad his father died so early, otherwise we never had seen such a beautifull movie ;)
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In the SS as you say Ennis answers this question without hesitation or lack of clarity. Just after the reunion while lying in Jacks arms in the motel and after relating the story of Earl & Rich, Ennis tells Jack:
If he was alive and was to put his head in that door right now you bet he'd go get his tire iron.
There was no question in his son's mind as to what he'd do.
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Ennis's father being alive wouldn't have changed who Ennis really was.
I really believe that if Ennis said this to Jack when they were in the motel,was because he knew him too well in his fanaticism and homophobia.Along the years he was supposed to have had some proofs of this and the almost total confirmation of his participation in Earl's death...
Jack's father,on his side,knew his son's homosexuality,that's for sure,and this knowledge made him despise Jack more still; he was never a too loving father,he never trusted in his son's abilities and he never gave him support enough...All these reactions had a confirmation the day he knew the truth about Jack,as a kind of telling to himself he was right because his son was not "man" enough...-and that for this reason he deserved his scorn...-.Ennis father seemed to have been a much loving and supporting one,but surely because he had taken for granted that his son answered to the "macho man" image he believed as the only respectful.Feeling deceived in his deepest beliefs in spite of being his own son-or better said,precisely for being his own son-I do believe could have taken this man to an unexpected reaction.A man like that doesn't raise a son who can end by being a "queer"¡.
Hmmm, I don't think Ennis's father was a very loving and supportive father at all. A good father wouldn't show his young children what Ennis's father showed him and his brother when they were children. I get the feeling that Ennis didn't have a good relationship with his father. That's part of the reason why Ennis was so sullen and self-concious. He felt like he was a nobody going nowhere because his father probably didn't hold him in high regard. Now as to whether or not Ennis would have met Jack...yeah, he might have never met Jack if his parents were still alive, but that doesn't change who Ennis really is. Never meeting Jack meant Ennis would have never acted on his feelings, but deep down inside, he would still be the same person.
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well now im crying a little im slightly over emotional so bare with me as i try and string an answer together.
first of all i do beleive ennis' father would have killed them ive no doubt well at least not much doubt, if ennis' father could show him the body of a earl and laugh at him because he was "queer" well that showed that ennis' father didnt realy even think of the gay community as human, if he didnt kill them id be suprised i mean i think the only thing that could stop him was knowing that ennis was his son but even then i think he would have killed jack still, ihavnt read the short story yet but really my heart shreads with every word i read on this the fact someone could kill for a matter as puny as sexuality is beyond me. i notice i havnt said much substancial here but my head is messed up with it all right now, ill go to bed now and if i think of anything more ill be back.
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well now im crying a little im slightly over emotional so bare with me as i try and string an answer together.
first of all i do beleive ennis' father would have killed them ive no doubt well at least not much doubt, if ennis' father could show him the body of a earl and laugh at him because he was "queer" well that showed that ennis' father didnt realy even think of the gay community as human, if he didnt kill them id be suprised i mean i think the only thing that could stop him was knowing that ennis was his son but even then i think he would have killed jack still, ihavnt read the short story yet but really my heart shreads with every word i read on this the fact someone could kill for a matter as puny as sexuality is beyond me. i notice i havnt said much substancial here but my head is messed up with it all right now, ill go to bed now and if i think of anything more ill be back.
Yeah, I think he would have definitely killed his own son. He was that ignorant, hateful, and cruel. He would hate Ennis for being gay, and you're right if he showed nine-year old Ennis the body of the brutally murdered Earl, then it's clear. He was basically saying to his young sons that day as he pointed to Earl's body in the irrigation ditch, "Look, this is what will happen to you if are like him." And Ennis always felt that it was his father who had murdered Earl, because he knew exaclty where his corpse was, so there really is no doubt that Ennis's father wouldn't even hestitate to commit murder. As for Jack's father, I think he despised his own son, but perhaps wasn't filled with enough hate to the point where he would kill. But it's clear that someone like Jack's father wasn't accepting of homosexuality either. Jack's mother is really admirable though, because she loved her son and accepted him just the way he was. It's clear to see how touched Ennis was at her kindness and understanding. When she tells Ennis to go see Jack's room, and when she gives him the bag to put the shirts in, you can see she really understands how deeply and truly Ennis and Jack love each other. She is happy to have the person who her son truly loved in her home, that's why she tells him to come visit again. Ennis for the first time in his life saw someone who was understanding and accepting in society. I think he went home feeling better now knowing that there were good people who did understand, that there were kind people in this cruel world, it wasn't completely overrun by ignorant homophobes like his father, who take a perverse pleasure in torturing and murdering other human beings.
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I think Ennis grew up afraid of his father, obedient, but very afraid of him. Afraid of the hate speech that the ol man used around him most likely , backed up by a grisly scene of death. this would scare any child into believeing what their father said.
Many men teach their sons homophobia, hate and racism, sexism too. Imo these men are cowards. As long as it's someone else's loved one on the recieving end , the have no problem comitting violence on them. The concensus seems to be that Ennis's father would not hesitate to kill his own son if he found him to be gay. It's his own son now, his boy, gay. I disagree. I just feel that he could not stand by, or participate in Ennis's death in the manner of Earl. I'm not saying violence would'nt ensue, but for Mr DelMar to kill Ennis? ..I don't know. He had enough hate for gays inside him and I believe the capacity and mindset to murder, but not his own. I feel it would really result in something similar to Jack''s father, only worse. Treat Ennis as if he was dead to him, totally disowning him. or force Ennis out of the vicinity of him. I feel he'd have no problem going after Jack though if he found out, Jack would become the culprit who *made* his son a "queer" Ennis would just become *the son that does'nt exist*. Ennis being his son would *exempt* Ennis from death, being that Mr. DelMar would not want the whole town or anyone else knowing he murdered his own son. I maybe wrong but this is my feeling.
Has anyone else givin any thought to his death being a murder-suicide? It was the only curve in the road in 40 miles and they missed it? ..hmmm.
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This reminds me of the film "Affliction" with the late James Colburn as the abusive father and how that hate and abuse afflicts the sons. In ss his father trained Ennis in being abusive "hit first", he taught both of his sons this. His father laughed at the fact that the "queer" Earl was tortured and killed. When Ennis tells Jack if his father poked his head in that motel room, he would be dead, that is real to him.
We know Ennis was capable of such violence, but Ennis saving grace was his love was more powerful than his hate. And that was his struggle. To fight the hate for that love he knew his father could very well kill him over.
My take.
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Ennis's father being alive wouldn't have changed who Ennis really was.
Hmmm, I don't think Ennis's father was a very loving and supportive father at all. A good father wouldn't show his young children what Ennis's father showed him and his brother when they were children. I get the feeling that Ennis didn't have a good relationship with his father. That's part of the reason why Ennis was so sullen and self-concious. He felt like he was a nobody going nowhere because his father probably didn't hold him in high regard. Now as to whether or not Ennis would have met Jack...yeah, he might have never met Jack if his parents were still alive, but that doesn't change who Ennis really is. Never meeting Jack meant Ennis would have never acted on his feelings, but deep down inside, he would still be the same person.
Let's see,I've never said that Ennis father was a loving and supportive father "per se",but in comparison with Jack's.We know that he had always despised his son,never was really concerned about his education and about how his life was developping.What I meant is that,at least,Ennis father didn't seem so carefree in this level,for what we heard from Ennis own words; the same gesture of showing him Earl's body was a kind of "education",even in his very distorted,cruel and stupid way(if we take this word as a way of transmitting some values,the values Mr. Del Mar thought were the right and proper,although we don't and can't share them...).One thing is the values and education in a global sense we give to our children and other,very different IMO,is the results of this education and how they affected them in a psychological and emotional sense...Of course,Ennis was painfully affected by this vision of his childhood at the point of marking all his life and his relationship with the person he loved the most;that was a result of his father's teaching,that I'm not saying I'm sharing(OMG¡) but that they was what he thought the best for his children as a father.I don't know if this makes sense now... :-\\
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I suspect that had Ennis's father lived, Ennis may have grown up to be outwardly more homophobic, but deeply conflicted and closeted inside.
I would not be surprised if such an Ennis would have killed Jack in a scene such as FNIT, although it would have been an involuntary reaction, rather than a deep-seated feeling born of conviction...
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I suspect that had Ennis's father lived, Ennis may have grown up to be outwardly more homophobic, but deeply conflicted and closeted inside.
I would not be surprised if such an Ennis would have killed Jack in a scene such as FNIT, although it would have been an involuntary reaction, rather than a deep-seated feeling born of conviction...
I could never imagine Ennis killing anyone. To me, he's just not the type of person who was capable of killing another person. Ennis knew who was inside, and felt disgusted by society's ignorance and cruelty, although he knew he would have to walk the straight line because he had an immense fear of said society and its people. Had Ennis's father not died, and had Ennis happened to meet Jack, I think Ennis would have still fallen in love with Jack. Those were his feelings, and he couldn't ignore them. After FNIT, he would have just ridden off the way he did, because he was afraid that if anyone found out about just that one sexual experience with another man, it would be enough to get him killed. He goes into the tent the second night, because although he fears his feelings will get him killed, he feels that deep, pure, true love for Jack. Now again, as to whether his father would have killed him; there was no doubt in Ennis's mind that he would have. I know we'd all like to think that parents couldn't kill their children, but there are many who do. Ennis's father was one of those parents who would have. It's sad and it's cruel, but people like that do exist in this world, and Ennis knew it. That's why he was so afraid in his life.
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I could never imagine Ennis killing anyone. To me, he's just not the type of person who was capable of killing another person. Ennis knew who was inside, and felt disgusted by society's ignorance and cruelty, although he knew he would have to walk the straight line because he had an immense fear of said society and its people. Had Ennis's father not died, and had Ennis happened to meet Jack, I think Ennis would have still fallen in love with Jack. Those were his feelings, and he couldn't ignore them. After FNIT, he would have just ridden off the way he did, because he was afraid that if anyone found out about just that one sexual experience with another man, it would be enough to get him killed. He goes into the tent the second night, because although he fears his feelings will get him killed, he feels that deep, pure, true love for Jack. Now again, as to whether his father would have killed him; there was no doubt in Ennis's mind that he would have. I know we'd all like to think that parents couldn't kill their children, but there are many who do. Ennis's father was one of those parents who would have. It's sad and it's cruel, but people like that do exist in this world, and Ennis knew it. That's why he was so afraid in his life.
i agree ennis was a good guy, i just ant imagin him killing anyone to me ennis is to much a good soul and as you said he hated society ignorance and cruelty surely our ennis with his good soul wouldnt add to something which he dispised so much... well thats just my IMO but i think ennis just couldnt kill anyone ever.
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I think Ennis grew up afraid of his father, obedient, but very afraid of him. Afraid of the hate speech that the ol man used around him most likely , backed up by a grisly scene of death. this would scare any child into believeing what their father said.
Many men teach their sons homophobia, hate and racism, sexism too. Imo these men are cowards. As long as it's someone else's loved one on the recieving end , the have no problem comitting violence on them. The concensus seems to be that Ennis's father would not hesitate to kill his own son if he found him to be gay. It's his own son now, his boy, gay. I disagree. I just feel that he could not stand by, or participate in Ennis's death in the manner of Earl. I'm not saying violence would'nt ensue, but for Mr DelMar to kill Ennis? ..I don't know. He had enough hate for gays inside him and I believe the capacity and mindset to murder, but not his own. I feel it would really result in something similar to Jack''s father, only worse. Treat Ennis as if he was dead to him, totally disowning him. or force Ennis out of the vicinity of him. I feel he'd have no problem going after Jack though if he found out, Jack would become the culprit who *made* his son a "queer" Ennis would just become *the son that does'nt exist*. Ennis being his son would *exempt* Ennis from death, being that Mr. DelMar would not want the whole town or anyone else knowing he murdered his own son. I maybe wrong but this is my feeling.
I agree with every word, AF. Ennis' father could kill Jack, of course, and hate and ignore Ennis forever, even beat him, but not kill his own son. Maybe if other men killed Ennis he would have remained in silent, but he couldn't kill his son.
I suspect that had Ennis's father lived, Ennis may have grown up to be outwardly more homophobic, but deeply conflicted and closeted inside.
I would not be surprised if such an Ennis would have killed Jack in a scene such as FNIT, although it would have been an involuntary reaction, rather than a deep-seated feeling born of conviction...
Agree too, Thomas. Annie Proulx defined Ennis as homophobic gay man, so if his father lived Ennis would have been educated in strong hard endless homophobic and at the age of 19 he certainly could beat Jack badly in a scene like a FNIT.
Athena and Matt, of course Ennis was a good man, but you have to think that he spent several years without his father and cause of that be didn't became so full of hate. But if Ennis had been some more years with his father listening his words....well....you have seen how rough and violent Ennis can be, punching his loved Jack without reason, or punching an unknown man in his truck without reason too, so if he father lived I think Ennis could beat someone like Jack, though I'm NOT saying he could or wanted to kill him.
Annie said to us that Ennis was homophobic and he didn't see himself like a gay man; and he made so clear after FNIT that he wasn't queer. Also in the SS in the motel scene Ennis asked Jack about-sorry I have not the SS in English-"that kind of men" he sees in the street. He didn't say "men like us" but he separated himself from that kind of men, cause, once again, he didn't think about himself like a queer; that doesn't mean that he was not aware of his feelings for Jack, but he saw his relationship with Jack like something that had nothing to do with being queer, you know.
OMG!!! (t) (t) (t) That was soooooooo OT!!!! %&) %&) Sorry so much. I'm just rambling.
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hmm i suppose he was sometimes quite violent, but i dont know i always could see the reasons for it maybe it wasnt fair to do so to jack or the man in the truck but i felt for him and always seen a reason why even though it was bad to the individuals it affected... ennis hurt jack in a way like beating him... i just couldnt beleive it maybe a punch but beating him... :\'( i really dont want to ever ever think of that... i suppose we dont have to because it wasnt the case thank god.
sorry for being *o)
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homophobic [/b] gay man, so if his father lived Ennis would have been educated in strong hard endless homophobic and at the age of 19 he certainly could beat Jack badly in a scene like a FNIT.
Athena and Matt, of course Ennis was a good man, but you have to think that he spent several years without his father and cause of that be didn't became so full of hate. But if Ennis had been some more years with his father listening his words....well....you have seen how rough and violent Ennis can be, punching his loved Jack without reason, or punching an unknown man in his truck without reason too, so if he father lived I think Ennis could beat someone like Jack, though I'm NOT saying he could or wanted to kill him.
Annis said to us that Ennis was homophobic and he didn't see himself like a gay man; and he made so clear after FNIT that he wasn't queer. Also in the SS in the motel scene Ennis asked Jack about-sorry I have not the SS in English-"that kind of men" he sees in the street. He didn't say "men like us" but he separated himself from that kind of men, cause, once again, he didn't think about himself like a queer; that doesn't mean that he was not aware of his feelings for Jack, but he saw his relationship with Jack like something that had nothing to do with being queer, you know.
OMG!!! (t) (t) (t) That was soooooooo OT!!!! %&) %&) Sorry so much. I'm just rambling.
A little *o) But if Ennis was so rough and violent was mainly because this-violence-was a reaction against his own frustrations and fears and,sometimes,even against himself.He felt frustrated by the circumstances and his own fear that drowned him when they must come down the mountain and ended beating Jack.He was frustrated for Alma's reaction in Thanksgiving day ,and for his own fear again,and caused a struggle with the driver;reaction against himself because he let the other beat him when he had could defend himself better-a kind of punishment or penitence?-.Yes,his father let it him the violence's seed,but his own circumstances made him as he was...
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I agree with every word, AF. Ennis' father could kill Jack, of course, and hate and ignore Ennis forever, even beat him, but not kill his own son. Maybe if other men killed Ennis he would have remained in silent, but he couldn't kill his son.
Agree too, Thomas. Annie Proulx defined Ennis as homophobic gay man, so if his father lived Ennis would have been educated in strong hard endless homophobic and at the age of 19 he certainly could beat Jack badly in a scene like a FNIT.
Athena and Matt, of course Ennis was a good man, but you have to think that he spent several years without his father and cause of that be didn't became so full of hate. But if Ennis had been some more years with his father listening his words....well....you have seen how rough and violent Ennis can be, punching his loved Jack without reason, or punching an unknown man in his truck without reason too, so if he father lived I think Ennis could beat someone like Jack, though I'm NOT saying he could or wanted to kill him.
Annis said to us that Ennis was homophobic and he didn't see himself like a gay man; and he made so clear after FNIT that he wasn't queer. Also in the SS in the motel scene Ennis asked Jack about-sorry I have not the SS in English-"that kind of men" he sees in the street. He didn't say "men like us" but he separated himself from that kind of men, cause, once again, he didn't think about himself like a queer; that doesn't mean that he was not aware of his feelings for Jack, but he saw his relationship with Jack like something that had nothing to do with being queer, you know.
OMG!!! (t) (t) (t) That was soooooooo OT!!!! %&) %&) Sorry so much. I'm just rambling.
I really don't see Ennis as homophobic himself. Deep down inside, Ennis knew who he was, and feared what would happen as a result of it. The fact that he told Jack about what happened to Earl and Rich shows us that he recognized that what he and Jack shared was similar to Earl and Rich. After FNIT, both of them say they're not "queer", and I think they say it because they fear what will happen if people suspect what has transpired between them. I think Ennis feared the fact that he was indeed "queer" not because he himself despised being gay, but because he of the enormous amount of fear he had of what would happen to him if anyone knew about his true feelings. As to the violent or angry behavior Ennis sometimes displayed, I think that's just the way Ennis used to express feelings that he couldn't articulate. He fights with Jack on the last day not because he's angry at Jack, but because he's upset that they will be parting ways soon. He strikes Alma at Thanksgiving not because he's violent, but because he's angry at her for insulting Jack and for what she was about to say in front of Monroe...he had an immense fear that Alma would let his secret out, then he might end up murdered like Earl. He fights with the guy in the truck again, not because he's violent, but because of his frustrations and fears, and hurt. It seems to me that every time Ennis displays this angry or "violent" behavior, it's when he is deeply feeling fearful, frustrated, hurt, lonely, etc. He can't tell people what he feels inside, so he lashes out as a way to release the emotions he's feeling. As for Ennis's father killing his son, I still believe that there's no doubt his father would have killed him. There are people in this world who would kill their own children, and Ennis's father was definitely the type of person who was capable of such cruelty.
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I could never imagine Ennis killing anyone. To me, he's just not the type of person who was capable of killing another person. Ennis knew who was inside, and felt disgusted by society's ignorance and cruelty, although he knew he would have to walk the straight line because he had an immense fear of said society and its people. Had Ennis's father not died, and had Ennis happened to meet Jack, I think Ennis would have still fallen in love with Jack. Those were his feelings, and he couldn't ignore them. After FNIT, he would have just ridden off the way he did, because he was afraid that if anyone found out about just that one sexual experience with another man, it would be enough to get him killed. He goes into the tent the second night, because although he fears his feelings will get him killed, he feels that deep, pure, true love for Jack. Now again, as to whether his father would have killed him; there was no doubt in Ennis's mind that he would have. I know we'd all like to think that parents couldn't kill their children, but there are many who do. Ennis's father was one of those parents who would have. It's sad and it's cruel, but people like that do exist in this world, and Ennis knew it. That's why he was so afraid in his life.
I suspected that my statement about killing would have raised eyebrows. I have to agree that given Ennis's disposition, it would be hard to imagine him capable of it. What triggered this, honestly, was thinking about Sonny in Monster's Ball.
Had Ennis been conditioned to be extremely homophobic, perhaps he would have self-destructed.
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Agree too, Thomas. Annie Proulx defined Ennis as homophobic gay man, so if his father lived Ennis would have been educated in strong hard endless homophobic and at the age of 19 he certainly could beat Jack badly in a scene like a FNIT.
Athena and Matt, of course Ennis was a good man, but you have to think that he spent several years without his father and cause of that be didn't became so full of hate. But if Ennis had been some more years with his father listening his words....well....you have seen how rough and violent Ennis can be, punching his loved Jack without reason, or punching an unknown man in his truck without reason too, so if he father lived I think Ennis could beat someone like Jack, though I'm NOT saying he could or wanted to kill him.
Annie said to us that Ennis was homophobic and he didn't see himself like a gay man; and he made so clear after FNIT that he wasn't queer. Also in the SS in the motel scene Ennis asked Jack about-sorry I have not the SS in English-"that kind of men" he sees in the street. He didn't say "men like us" but he separated himself from that kind of men, cause, once again, he didn't think about himself like a queer; that doesn't mean that he was not aware of his feelings for Jack, but he saw his relationship with Jack like something that had nothing to do with being queer, you know.
OMG!!! (t) (t) (t) That was soooooooo OT!!!! %&) %&) Sorry so much. I'm just rambling.
A little *o) But if Ennis was so rough and violent was mainly because this-violence-was a reaction against his own frustrations and fears and,sometimes,even against himself.He felt frustrated by the circumstances and his own fear that drowned him when they must come down the mountain and ended beating Jack.He was frustrated for Alma's reaction in Thanksgiving day ,and for his own fear again,and caused a struggle with the driver;reaction against himself because he let the other beat him when he had could defend himself better-a kind of punishment or penitence?-.Yes,his father let it him the violence's seed,but his own circumstances made him as he was...
Nicely stated, Tammy and MPJ. I do think the formative word here would be "conditioning". Even though his father died early on, Ennis had undergone enough trauma as to end up deeply conflicted. I believe that homophobia was at the root of this internal conflict: the hate of oneself and an involuntary hate for those like you, I suppose...
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I really don't see Ennis as homophobic himself. Deep down inside, Ennis knew who he was, and feared what would happen as a result of it. The fact that he told Jack about what happened to Earl and Rich shows us that he recognized that what he and Jack shared was similar to Earl and Rich. After FNIT, both of them say they're not "queer", and I think they say it because they fear what will happen if people suspect what has transpired between them. I think Ennis feared the fact that he was indeed "queer" not because he himself despised being gay, but because he of the enormous amount of fear he had of what would happen to him if anyone knew about his true feelings. As to the violent or angry behavior Ennis sometimes displayed, I think that's just the way Ennis used to express feelings that he couldn't articulate. He fights with Jack on the last day not because he's angry at Jack, but because he's upset that they will be parting ways soon. He strikes Alma at Thanksgiving not because he's violent, but because he's angry at her for insulting Jack and for what she was about to say in front of Monroe...he had an immense fear that Alma would let his secret out, then he might end up murdered like Earl. He fights with the guy in the truck again, not because he's violent, but because of his frustrations and fears, and hurt. It seems to me that every time Ennis displays this angry or "violent" behavior, it's when he is deeply feeling fearful, frustrated, hurt, lonely, etc. He can't tell people what he feels inside, so he lashes out as a way to release the emotions he's feeling. As for Ennis's father killing his son, I still believe that there's no doubt his father would have killed him. There are people in this world who would kill their own children, and Ennis's father was definitely the type of person who was capable of such cruelty.
Hmmm.... I am actually of an opposing opinion. I think that homophobia was integral to an understanding of who Ennis was -- and I think that it was rooted in his early expereince with his father. I am not saying that this was the only thing that defined Ennis. But that fact that this latent homophobia clashed with Ennis's true nature goes a long way in giving us an understanding of the conflict he suffered.
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Hmmm.... I am actually of an opposing opinion. I think that homophobia was integral to an understanding of who Ennis was -- and I think that it was rooted in his early expereince with his father. I am not saying that this was the only thing that defined Ennis. But that fact that this latent homophobia clashed with Ennis's true nature goes a long way in giving us an understanding of the conflict he suffered.
hmmm agreed
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Hmmm.... I am actually of an opposing opinion. I think that homophobia was integral to an understanding of who Ennis was -- and I think that it was rooted in his early expereince with his father. I am not saying that this was the only thing that defined Ennis. But that fact that this latent homophobia clashed with Ennis's true nature goes a long way in giving us an understanding of the conflict he suffered.
But think about this. Why was Ennis really afraid? Was he really afraid of the feelings he had within himself because he thought they were wrong, or was he afraid of those feelings because he knew from an early age that society considered things like that wrong? The conflict in Ennis is the fact that he harbors feelings that are contrary to what society expects him to have, and what society's definitions of what it thinks is "right" and "wrong". His father wanted him to be homophobic...but Ennis's true self was everything his father and society abhorred. The real conflict therefore is Ennis knowing that he loves another man but being trapped in a society which would condemn him to torture and murder if it was found out. You can tell from the way he talks about Earl and Rich that Ennis feels respect for those guys on some level. His father pointing them out and saying, "This is what will happen to you if you're like them." gives us insight into his relationship with his father. Which leaves us to wonder, did Ennis's father suspect that his son would have homosexual feelings? Did Ennis's father think that his son would turn out to be gay and therefore showed him the brutally murdered Earl to instill such deep fear in him? Perhaps even from that early and tender age, Ennis already wasn't what his father expected him to be. He was different from his father, so just because his father would preach all that ignorance and hate, it doesn't mean the kid will be brainwashed to think the same way. Ennis's true conflict was the conflict between his real self and between what society wanted him to be. He was afraid of what people would say, think, and do. He felt like he had no choice but to be what they expected of him, so in order for no one to know what he really felt, he put up that wall and put on that stoic demeanor. That's how he dealt with things. Underneath all that was the real Ennis. Sensitive, scared, vulnerable, alone...he just put up that wall to shield himself off from a world that didn't understand him. Then along came Jack who saw everything behind that wall, who understood Ennis. The only person whom Ennis could really be himself around was Jack. It's interesting that you brought up the Monster's Ball analogy. Heath's character in that film, Sonny was similar in a lot of ways to Ennis. He was completely contrary to the way his father wanted him to be.
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Hmmm.... I am actually of an opposing opinion. I think that homophobia was integral to an understanding of who Ennis was -- and I think that it was rooted in his early expereince with his father. I am not saying that this was the only thing that defined Ennis. But that fact that this latent homophobia clashed with Ennis's true nature goes a long way in giving us an understanding of the conflict he suffered.
Homophobia was indeed part of Ennis, at no time did he when relating the story of Rich and Earl, did he say, "the old man was wrong", but an acceptance of that fact, queer means death. And an uneasy knowledge that if his father stuck his head in that motel room, and saw him laying in Jack's arms, he was dead, he'd truly believed his father was capable of murder, in regards to Earl Ennis believed of his father, "Hell, he'd probably done the job." and this wasn't going to happen to him. "I'm not queer", that "one shot thing they had going on", and so that battle between who he wasn't and who he was.
My take.
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Homophobia was indeed part of Ennis, at no time did he when relating the story of Rich and Earl, did he say, "the old man was wrong", but an acceptance of that fact, queer means death. And an uneasy knowledge that if his father stuck his head in that motel room, and saw him laying in Jack's arms, he was dead, he'd truly believed his father was capable of murder, in regards to Earl Ennis believed of his father, "Hell, he'd probably done the job." and this wasn't going to happen to him. "I'm not queer", that "one shot thing they had going on", and so that battle between who he wasn't and who he was.
My take.
hmmmm :s) intresting
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Homophobia was indeed part of Ennis, at no time did he when relating the story of Rich and Earl, did he say, "the old man was wrong", but an acceptance of that fact, queer means death. And an uneasy knowledge that if his father stuck his head in that motel room, and saw him laying in Jack's arms, he was dead, he'd truly believed his father was capable of murder, in regards to Earl Ennis believed of his father, "Hell, he'd probably done the job." and this wasn't going to happen to him. "I'm not queer", that "one shot thing they had going on", and so that battle between who he wasn't and who he was.
My take.
Hmmm, he didn't have to say that he thought his father was wrong in order to convey how he really felt. He was clearly horrified at what he had witnessed, and he knew that the same thing could happen to him. Just look at the way he tells relates his memories, he seemed deeply distraught and sad as he tells Jack about Earl and Rich. He knows that if people were to know about him and Jack, they would brutally torture and kill them. In fact, this is what stops Ennis from being with Jack all those years. He's completely horrified at being found out, and that's the real battle inside him. The fact that he knows his father would kill him if he saw him in Jack's arms, means that he knows that he and Jack are indeed gay. How could he think his relationship with Jack didn't make him "queer" if he is so sure that his father would kill him for it? If he didn't see it as "queer", then he wouldn't have been so afraid of what society might do to them. If Ennis's father or some other homophobe were to walk into that room, they wouldn't say, "Oh Ennis isn't really queer, he just loves Jack", and Ennis knows this, he knows they would go get their tire irons. He knows exactly what society would think. Ennis's father raised him to be homophobic...but he also knew from early on that his son was different. Somehow he sensed that Ennis wasn't exactly the way he thought he should be...I believe that's why his father showed him the dead Earl. My feeling that I get from that is his father saying "Don't you dare turn out like this." Would there really have been a reason in Ennis's father's mind to make it a point to show his sons such a gruesome scene if they were exactly like he wanted them to be and he was one hundred percent sure they wouldn't be gay? The fact that he vehemently scared Ennis and his brother like that shows us that he thought that at least one of them might have a tendency to be "queer". If he hadn't had an inkling in his mind of ever thinking his son was gay, if his son was a carbon-copy of himself, I really don't think he would have made it such a point to show them Earl. The fact that he did tells us that he felt he needed to reinforce his hateful conditioning, because he felt his sons weren't turning out quite the way he wanted.
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It seems to me that Ennis's father created in Ennis's mind a kind of hierarchy of vlaues and the most highly rated was of being tough and stereotypically male. Ennis evidently admired that aspect of Earl and Rich, but his father's attitude made it clear that toughness and success as a rancher were worth little if they were undermined by his sexuality.Ennis has been working on ranches with his brother - he has come to BBM to work and is so far trying ot live up to his father's remplate of the real man. He is engaged when he arrives, going to marry when he leaves - so far so conventional.
Jack undermines all this though - Jack isn't married or planning to be, isn't interested in being a rancher, doesn't have any respect for Aguirre or his rules, has broken away from his own father - in essence he shows Ennis a different way of being a man, long before they become lovers.He's almost the antithesis of Ennis's father, and begins turning Ennis into that too, which is part of the reason Ennis is so conflicted - he's being invited to reject everything his father tired to ingrain in him, about work as well as who it's possible to love.
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It seems to me that Ennis's father created in Ennis's mind a kind of hierarchy of vlaues and the most highly rated was of being tough and stereotypically male. Ennis evidently admired that aspect of Earl and Rich, but his father's attitude made it clear that toughness and success as a rancher were worth little if they were undermined by his sexuality.Ennis has been working on ranches with his brother - he has come to BBM to work and is so far trying ot live up to his father's remplate of the real man. He is engaged when he arrives, going to marry when he leaves - so far so conventional.
Jack undermines all this though - Jack isn't married or planning to be, isn't interested in being a rancher, doesn't have any respect for Aguirre or his rules, has broken away from his own father - in essence he shows Ennis a different way of being a man, long before they become lovers.He's almost the antithesis of Ennis's father, and begins turning Ennis into that too, which is part of the reason Ennis is so conflicted - he's being invited to reject everything his father tired to ingrain in him, about work as well as who it's possible to love.
And this is Ennis's dilemma. I agree with ww, there was an underlying respect for Rich and Earl, "tough old birds", who lived their lives as they wanted to. And Ennis's father destroying the idea of that independent spirit, which ww points out is exactly what Jack had.
This the tug-o-war within Ennis, the battle that Jack with all his patience and his love watched as Ennis dealt with it. It reminds me of the final confrontation and in his anger with Jack and his infidelity, knew why he went to Mexico, "boys like you" (hint of his old man), and Jack not flinching, "so what's the f#@king problem?", (I am who I am. )
It's not only society, but the struggle within Ennis, how he was taught to be, and who he is.
My take.
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But think about this. Why was Ennis really afraid? Was he really afraid of the feelings he had within himself because he thought they were wrong, or was he afraid of those feelings because he knew from an early age that society considered things like that wrong? The conflict in Ennis is the fact that he harbors feelings that are contrary to what society expects him to have, and what society's definitions of what it thinks is "right" and "wrong". His father wanted him to be homophobic...but Ennis's true self was everything his father and society abhorred. The real conflict therefore is Ennis knowing that he loves another man but being trapped in a society which would condemn him to torture and murder if it was found out. You can tell from the way he talks about Earl and Rich that Ennis feels respect for those guys on some level. His father pointing them out and saying, "This is what will happen to you if you're like them." gives us insight into his relationship with his father. Which leaves us to wonder, did Ennis's father suspect that his son would have homosexual feelings? Did Ennis's father think that his son would turn out to be gay and therefore showed him the brutally murdered Earl to instill such deep fear in him? Perhaps even from that early and tender age, Ennis already wasn't what his father expected him to be. He was different from his father, so just because his father would preach all that ignorance and hate, it doesn't mean the kid will be brainwashed to think the same way. Ennis's true conflict was the conflict between his real self and between what society wanted him to be. He was afraid of what people would say, think, and do. He felt like he had no choice but to be what they expected of him, so in order for no one to know what he really felt, he put up that wall and put on that stoic demeanor. That's how he dealt with things. Underneath all that was the real Ennis. Sensitive, scared, vulnerable, alone...he just put up that wall to shield himself off from a world that didn't understand him. Then along came Jack who saw everything behind that wall, who understood Ennis. The only person whom Ennis could really be himself around was Jack. It's interesting that you brought up the Monster's Ball analogy. Heath's character in that film, Sonny was similar in a lot of ways to Ennis. He was completely contrary to the way his father wanted him to be.
Honestly, I thought that a part of Ennis did think that his feelings for Jack were wrong/immoral. I felt that he could never accept the implications of his actions to the very end of Jack's life: "I'm not queer", "Boy's like you", "This thing". This is separate from the fear of reprisal/censure from society at large, and a part of Ennis probably felt that society was justified, IMO.
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Homophobia was indeed part of Ennis, at no time did he when relating the story of Rich and Earl, did he say, "the old man was wrong", but an acceptance of that fact, queer means death. And an uneasy knowledge that if his father stuck his head in that motel room, and saw him laying in Jack's arms, he was dead, he'd truly believed his father was capable of murder, in regards to Earl Ennis believed of his father, "Hell, he'd probably done the job." and this wasn't going to happen to him. "I'm not queer", that "one shot thing they had going on", and so that battle between who he wasn't and who he was.
My take.
Yes, I felt that his father probably complicated his feelings regarding himself and his desires. In my last post, I intended to say that the father's censure of Earl's lifestyle must have somehow convinced a part of Ennis that any reprisal/censure from society at large was probably justified. This what was he was taught by his own father, and he probably couldn't free himself from this point of view entirely...
It is the curse of guilt and the idea of sin.
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It seems to me that Ennis's father created in Ennis's mind a kind of hierarchy of vlaues and the most highly rated was of being tough and stereotypically male. Ennis evidently admired that aspect of Earl and Rich, but his father's attitude made it clear that toughness and success as a rancher were worth little if they were undermined by his sexuality.Ennis has been working on ranches with his brother - he has come to BBM to work and is so far trying ot live up to his father's remplate of the real man. He is engaged when he arrives, going to marry when he leaves - so far so conventional.
Jack undermines all this though - Jack isn't married or planning to be, isn't interested in being a rancher, doesn't have any respect for Aguirre or his rules, has broken away from his own father - in essence he shows Ennis a different way of being a man, long before they become lovers.He's almost the antithesis of Ennis's father, and begins turning Ennis into that too, which is part of the reason Ennis is so conflicted - he's being invited to reject everything his father tired to ingrain in him, about work as well as who it's possible to love.
I should learn not to respond before reading all the recent posts. :)
Yes, this is waht I had in mind in my last post.
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It seems to me that Ennis's father created in Ennis's mind a kind of hierarchy of vlaues and the most highly rated was of being tough and stereotypically male. Ennis evidently admired that aspect of Earl and Rich, but his father's attitude made it clear that toughness and success as a rancher were worth little if they were undermined by his sexuality.Ennis has been working on ranches with his brother - he has come to BBM to work and is so far trying ot live up to his father's remplate of the real man. He is engaged when he arrives, going to marry when he leaves - so far so conventional.
Jack undermines all this though - Jack isn't married or planning to be, isn't interested in being a rancher, doesn't have any respect for Aguirre or his rules, has broken away from his own father - in essence he shows Ennis a different way of being a man, long before they become lovers.He's almost the antithesis of Ennis's father, and begins turning Ennis into that too, which is part of the reason Ennis is so conflicted - he's being invited to reject everything his father tired to ingrain in him, about work as well as who it's possible to love.
Oh yes, this true. Before he meets Jack, he's been conditioned with what his father inculcated in him, but deep down inside, he's always known that he isn't exactly the person his father envisioned he should be, but Ennis is trying his best to be, his best to conform to the life that's expected of him. But of course, then everything changes...then comes the summer of 1963, and along comes Jack, and he turns Ennis's world upside-down.
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Honestly, I thought that a part of Ennis did think that his feelings for Jack were wrong/immoral. I felt that he could never accept the implications of his actions to the very end of Jack's life: "I'm not queer", "Boy's like you", "This thing". This is separate from the fear of reprisal/censure from society at large, and a part of Ennis probably felt that society was justified, IMO.
I do agree that when he first met Jack, he did feel it was wrong, at the very beginning. But he'd had a battle raging inside him for years. He was striving to be what society expected him to be, but deep down inside he had always known he was different. After he meets Jack, before the FNIT, he has these strong and deep feelings for this man, but the battle is raging inside him to fight these feelings, because he had been conditioned to think it was wrong. After FNIT, he tries to reconcile himself in saying "I'm not queer." and "This is a one-shot deal." In saying these things, he's fighting with himself. His heart has these feelings of love for Jack, his head, which has been conditioned by his father, is telling him..."You're wrong to feel this." He's struggling inside himself. Then comes the the night of SNIT, and when Ennis decides to walk into that tent and be with Jack, he isn't listening to that conditioned part of his mind at all. He knows he loves Jack, this is what he feels, this is what he wants in his life. From that night on, Ennis doesn't truly feel his feelings for Jack are wrong/immoral anymore. But he still has that immense fear of being found out...and that's the battle that rages on in him for the next twenty years. The fear of what will happen to him now that his true self is out, feeling that he had no choice but to go back and live the life that's expected of him. This is why Ennis later tells Jack "It's because of you that I'm this way." What he means by that is that he thinks it's because of Jack that he's feeling so miserable. Jack came along and broke his conditioning, he brought his real self out, he showed him what true love is, and Ennis perhaps feels that if Jack had never come along, he could have continued being what society wanted him to be, perhaps being content having never experienced anything else. But after he met Jack, Ennis could no longer do that. His feelings for Jack clashed with everything that society expected and inculcated, and Ennis could no longer deny who he truly was deep down inside. Therefore, he spent twenty years feeling like a misfit in society, trying so hard to keep his cover and do what's expected of him, but knowing where is heart truly lay. And I don't think he felt society was justified after he met Jack. I don't think Ennis had ever really felt that to begin with, since he was already so conflicted long before he met Jack. He definitely was conditioned to think it was wrong, because his father and society inculcated that in his mind, but I don't think he felt it was justified. He was clearly horrified at Earl's death. And the way he talked of his father, wasn't one of admiration. He thought his father had killed Earl, and he clearly felt his father would do the same to him. No matter what brainwashing his father and society inculcated in him, Ennis wasn't a hateful person. Ennis just knew the rules and he did his best to play by them...because he an immense fear of what would happen if he didn't...but then came Jack and changed that. With Jack, the real Ennis came out. Of course, when he wasn't with Jack he just went back to playing by the rules and pretending to be what was expected of him...but he was never the same as before he'd met Jack. Before he'd met Jack, he'd done a decent job of lying to himself, after he met Jack, he could no longer really do that because his love of Jack proved who he really was...something completely different from what his father and society had conditioned him to be. The fact of what Ennis is like when you take society out of the picture, shows us what Ennis really felt and who he really was. When he was alone with Jack on Brokeback Mountain, and society was forgotten, Ennis was free to be himself. This proves that society is the reason why Ennis doesn't listen to Jack. He wants to always be with Jack, but he knows they can't just live on Brokeback Mountain away from society. If they were to always be together, they would have to live together in front of society...and therefore they would be seen. It shows us what Ennis really feared and what kept him apart from Jack all those years. It was not his own feelings he feared. It was society's reaction to those feelings being found out.
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Honestly, I thought that a part of Ennis did think that his feelings for Jack were wrong/immoral. I felt that he could never accept the implications of his actions to the very end of Jack's life: "I'm not queer", "Boy's like you", "This thing". This is separate from the fear of reprisal/censure from society at large, and a part of Ennis probably felt that society was justified, IMO.
Yeah, Thomas, I totally agree. I remember Tony, other brokies, you and me talking about Ennis homophobia in another thread. We said there that Ennis was not only afraid of society but he was ashamed of what he was feeling. He said clearly that all town laughed at Earl and Rich and that is something that Ennis couldn't stand. Also, like you said and I wanted to say, the statement "boys like you" shows that Ennis thinks that his own sexuality is different from Jack's.
At first I was not sure about all, but Annie created Ennis, she is indeed Ennis and she said that Ennis was homophobic. So I have to count on that.
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Yeah, Thomas, I totally agree. I remember Tony, other brokies, you and me talking about Ennis homophobia in another thread. We said there that Ennis was not only afraid of society but he was ashamed of what he was feeling. He said clearly that all town laughed at Earl and Rich and that is something that Ennis couldn't stand. Also, like you said and I wanted to say, the statement "boys like you" shows that Ennis thinks that his own sexuality is different from Jack's.
At first I was not sure about all, but Annie created Ennis, she is indeed Ennis and she said that Ennis was homophobic. So I have to count on that.
hmmm good point.
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Yeah, Thomas, I totally agree. I remember Tony, other brokies, you and me talking about Ennis homophobia in another thread. We said there that Ennis was not only afraid of society but he was ashamed of what he was feeling. He said clearly that all town laughed at Earl and Rich and that is something that Ennis couldn't stand. Also, like you said and I wanted to say, the statement "boys like you" shows that Ennis thinks that his own sexuality is different from Jack's.
At first I was not sure about all, but Annie created Ennis, she is indeed Ennis and she said that Ennis was homophobic. So I have to count on that.
Yeah, he did fight his feelings at first, at the very very beginning of his relationship with Jack. Because he was conditioned to be a certain way by his father. However, I still stand by everything I've said. I believe what it really amounted to was Ennis's fear of society. He knew who he really was deep down inside, and he knew exactly what society would think of it.
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Yeah, he did fight his feelings at first, at the very very beginning of his relationship with Jack. Because he was conditioned to be a certain way by his father. However, I still stand by everything I've said. I believe what it really amounted to was Ennis's fear of society. He knew who he really was deep down inside, and he knew exactly what society would think of it.
i think ennis was homophobic but what is important to remember is homophobic doesnt always mean you dislike gay people it can mean you are affraid of homosexuality so in this way ennis fear about societys views on homosexuals and his own homophobia were the same his fear of being gay was because his fear of society if you understand my meaning.
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Yeah, he did fight his feelings at first, at the very very beginning of his relationship with Jack. Because he was conditioned to be a certain way by his father. However, I still stand by everything I've said. I believe what it really amounted to was Ennis's fear of society. He knew who he really was deep down inside, and he knew exactly what society would think of it.
Yeah, Athena, you're right, Ennis knew who he really was, but that doesn't mean that he accepted that. I mean, you can KNOW you're small or dark haired but maybe you DON'T like that. In the same way you can KNOW that you are gay and even you can be trying to accept it but that doesn't mean you like your sexuality. That's homophobia too. I don't think Ennis liked being gay. He loved Jack, that's for sure, but he didn't see himself like a queer cause he didn't like being gay, in fact, he was ashamed of that. It's different to love Jack and to like being gay. Ennis could separate that.
Think about after FNIT. He said to Jack that he wasn't queer. He could have said that in a bar full of tough men, in front of his brother or Alma, or in another place where he had to proud he was straight. But he said it to Jack!! Jack who was gay, who has been having sex with him the night before. He had nothing to prove to Jack. He said that cause he REALLY didn’t think about himself like a queer.
Also, I don’t think Ennis’ father showed him that crime cause he sensed that his son was gay. He also showed that to KE. And in the SS Ennis talks about his childhood and he not only didn’t show any sing of being gay, but also he showed that he was very tough fighting with his brother and all.
I think his father did that like many fathers show things they think are right or wrong to their sons. I mean, a racist father can show to his son a film about Nazis saying that’s right ( ^*) ^*) ), and he does that cause he wants his son to be like him not cause he senses that his son is gonna love someone of another race. The same when your father tries to make you fan of his football team. He wants you to be like him, to learn the things he thinks are right, not cause he sees you different.
OMG I don’t know is this makes sense. I really have problems with my English. Sorry. ^f^
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Yeah, Athena, you're right, Ennis knew who he really was, but that doesn't mean that he accepted that. I mean, you can KNOW you're small or dark haired but maybe you DON'T like that. In the same way you can KNOW that you are gay and even you can be trying to accept it but that doesn't mean you like your sexuality. That's homophobia too. I don't think Ennis liked being gay. He loved Jack, that's for sure, but he didn't see himself like a queer cause he didn't like being gay, in fact, he was ashamed of that. It's different to love Jack and to like being gay. Ennis could separate that.
Think about after FNIT. He said to Jack that he wasn't queer. He could have said that in a bar full of tough men, in front of his brother or Alma, or in another place where he had to proud he was straight. But he said it to Jack!! Jack who was gay, who has been having sex with him the night before. He had nothing to prove to Jack. He said that cause he REALLY didn’t think about himself like a queer.
Also, I don’t think Ennis’ father showed him that crime cause he sensed that his son was gay. He also showed that to KE. And in the SS Ennis talks about his childhood and he not only didn’t show any sing of being gay, but also he showed that he was very tough fighting with his brother and all.
I think his father did that like many fathers show things they think are right or wrong to their sons. I mean, a racist father can show to his son a film about Nazis saying that’s right ( ^*) ^*) ), and he does that cause he wants his son to be like him not cause he senses that his son is gonna love someone of another race. The same when your father tries to make you fan of his football team. He wants you to be like him, to learn the things he thinks are right, not cause he sees you different.
OMG I don’t know is this makes sense. I really have problems with my English. Sorry. ^f^
good post, and dont worry it made perfect sense :)
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I really think also that Ennis somehow hated himself for what he felt and,in the end,for what he was.What's more,in some extent,there were moments in which he also arrived to the point of hating Jack for what he had made him feel; is what I've said some times about the fight just before coming down from the mountain.He was frustrated for letting his true love running away from him,for having to live without him and how society dictated him-what he blindly had accepted up to that moment,even if he knew inside him that perhaps wasn´t the best way...-; but he also feel frustrated and angry with himself ,and with Jack for having awaken a part of his sexuality and his being,in sum,that had been perfectly hidden and what he guessed it was going very difficult to live with in the environment that surrounded him.
That was the "lesson" he learned from his father that-I agree with you,Tammy- not only showed the results of being different to Ennis,but also to his brother.It's supposed that Mr. Del Mar didn't think both his sons were,or were going to be,gay,but that this was the most effective way to run away from this tendency.He wanted his sons to be just like him,not for an stupid proud,but because he really and fully believed that he was ín truth´s possession and this admitted no discussion...(a very distinctive sign of extremist thought).And I've always thought that this "contra-teaching" had,partly,the contrary effect in young Ennis mind;he rejected homosexuality,on one side,but he felt attracted to it,on the other side.It's usual that a prohibition-without reasoning it- creates a wish,sometimes even stronger.He saw love in Earl and Ritchie,but at the same time he saw how this love-gay love...-was punished just for being "different"; reject and attraction to it,reject and attraction to Jack,reject and attraction to himself.I don't know either if this makes sense-my English is also what it's...-,but it's something I've seen many times in repressed persons.JMO.
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Yeah, Athena, you're right, Ennis knew who he really was, but that doesn't mean that he accepted that. I mean, you can KNOW you're small or dark haired but maybe you DON'T like that. In the same way you can KNOW that you are gay and even you can be trying to accept it but that doesn't mean you like your sexuality. That's homophobia too. I don't think Ennis liked being gay. He loved Jack, that's for sure, but he didn't see himself like a queer cause he didn't like being gay, in fact, he was ashamed of that. It's different to love Jack and to like being gay. Ennis could separate that.
Think about after FNIT. He said to Jack that he wasn't queer. He could have said that in a bar full of tough men, in front of his brother or Alma, or in another place where he had to proud he was straight. But he said it to Jack!! Jack who was gay, who has been having sex with him the night before. He had nothing to prove to Jack. He said that cause he REALLY didn’t think about himself like a queer.
Also, I don’t think Ennis’ father showed him that crime cause he sensed that his son was gay. He also showed that to KE. And in the SS Ennis talks about his childhood and he not only didn’t show any sing of being gay, but also he showed that he was very tough fighting with his brother and all.
I think his father did that like many fathers show things they think are right or wrong to their sons. I mean, a racist father can show to his son a film about Nazis saying that’s right ( ^*) ^*) ), and he does that cause he wants his son to be like him not cause he senses that his son is gonna love someone of another race. The same when your father tries to make you fan of his football team. He wants you to be like him, to learn the things he thinks are right, not cause he sees you different.
OMG I don’t know is this makes sense. I really have problems with my English. Sorry. ^f^
I really think also that Ennis somehow hated himself for what he felt and,in the end,for what he was.What's more,in some extent,there were moments in which he also arrived to the point of hating Jack for what he had made him feel; is what I've said some times about the fight just before coming down from the mountain.He was frustrated for letting his true love running away from him,for having to live without him and how society dictated him-what he blindly had accepted up to that moment,even if he knew inside him that perhaps wasn´t the best way...-; but he also feel frustrated and angry with himself ,and with Jack for having awaken a part of his sexuality and his being,in sum,that had been perfectly hidden and what he guessed it was going very difficult to live with in the environment that surrounded him.
That was the "lesson" he learned from his father that-I agree with you,Tammy- not only showed the results of being different to Ennis,but also to his brother.It's supposed that Mr. Del Mar didn't think both his sons were,or were going to be,gay,but that this was the most effective way to run away from this tendency.He wanted his sons to be just like him,not for an stupid proud,but because he really and fully believed that he was ín truth´s possession and this admitted no discussion...(a very distinctive sign of extremist thought).And I've always thought that this "contra-teaching" had,partly,the contrary effect in young Ennis mind;he rejected homosexuality,on one side,but he felt attracted to it,on the other side.It's usual that a prohibition-without reasoning it- creates a wish,sometimes even stronger.He saw love in Earl and Ritchie,but at the same time he saw how this love-gay love...-was punished just for being "different"; reject and attraction to it,reject and attraction to Jack,reject and attraction to himself.I don't know either if this makes sense-my English is also what it's...-,but it's something I've seen many times in repressed persons.JMO.
I guess Ennis could separate truly loving Jack with liking being gay, or such, because he was inculcated with anti-gay messages by his father, so he couldn't be completely comfortable with being gay. As a matter of fact, I don't think Ennis was comfortable with any sort of sexuality. But what is for sure is his pure, deep, true love for Jack, and in feeling free and comfortable and happy when he was alone with him, something he never felt anywhere else. He saw the love that he and Jack had as something that transcended everything, so could therefore separate it from the label "gay". His biggest fear was not really of his own feelings, (yes, he's afraid of his own feelings at the very beginning, right before and after FNIT, but soon that gives way because the true love he feels for Jack is so pure, passionate, and deep) but that of people finding out because of what they might do to them, but his feelings for Jack are so strong, that he isn't afraid to kiss him in front of his house where they could easily be seen (and are in fact seen by Alma). That's definitely the power of true love! :) There were definitely no reins on a love so pure and deep.
As for exactly why Ennis's father showed his sons that gruesome sight, yes he did it because he wanted them to be exactly like him. But think about this. Why would someone go to such great lengths to make someone be like them, if they aren't afraid that they might turn out different from them? They would have to have some inkling that their children might not be exactly what they expect...so to reinforce that they take measures like that. I mean, Ennis's father raised his sons, and growing up, he told them what he thought was wrong and right, but to actually show a nine year-old and an eleven year-old child such a gruesome, traumatizing scene...that's not just telling them that it's wrong to be homosexual...that's to scare them. Your analogy of a racist father showing his children that he thinks Nazis are "right", is to inculcate his beliefs into them and make them like himself, right. But what if that same father showed his children that he'd murdered a white man for being in love with a black woman, or laughed at a German getting killed by Nazis because he helped Jews in WWII? That takes the hate even a step further in that now he's instilling fear in his children to make sure that they turn out exactly the way he wants them to. He's telling his kids that "there will be deadly consequences if you aren't like me" This is what Ennis's father did. He was not only inculcating his homophobia into his sons...he was instilling fear in them to not become homosexual themselves, or else they would end up tortured and murdered like Earl.
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hmm intresting points there athena :s)
i especially thought the bit on ennis being a uncomfortable with any sexuality i always assumed when he looked uncomfortable with alma it was because his true love was jack but then maybe it goes deeper maybe he was uncomfortable with it for other reasons...
although i am sure being in love with jack was a main factor at his discomfort with alma and sex but maybe its not all...
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I do agree that when he first met Jack, he did feel it was wrong, at the very beginning. But he'd had a battle raging inside him for years. He was striving to be what society expected him to be, but deep down inside he had always known he was different. After he meets Jack, before the FNIT, he has these strong and deep feelings for this man, but the battle is raging inside him to fight these feelings, because he had been conditioned to think it was wrong. After FNIT, he tries to reconcile himself in saying "I'm not queer." and "This is a one-shot deal." In saying these things, he's fighting with himself. His heart has these feelings of love for Jack, his head, which has been conditioned by his father, is telling him..."You're wrong to feel this." He's struggling inside himself. Then comes the the night of SNIT, and when Ennis decides to walk into that tent and be with Jack, he isn't listening to that conditioned part of his mind at all. He knows he loves Jack, this is what he feels, this is what he wants in his life. From that night on, Ennis doesn't truly feel his feelings for Jack are wrong/immoral anymore. But he still has that immense fear of being found out...and that's the battle that rages on in him for the next twenty years. The fear of what will happen to him now that his true self is out, feeling that he had no choice but to go back and live the life that's expected of him. This is why Ennis later tells Jack "It's because of you that I'm this way." What he means by that is that he thinks it's because of Jack that he's feeling so miserable. Jack came along and broke his conditioning, he brought his real self out, he showed him what true love is, and Ennis perhaps feels that if Jack had never come along, he could have continued being what society wanted him to be, perhaps being content having never experienced anything else. But after he met Jack, Ennis could no longer do that. His feelings for Jack clashed with everything that society expected and inculcated, and Ennis could no longer deny who he truly was deep down inside. Therefore, he spent twenty years feeling like a misfit in society, trying so hard to keep his cover and do what's expected of him, but knowing where is heart truly lay. And I don't think he felt society was justified after he met Jack. I don't think Ennis had ever really felt that to begin with, since he was already so conflicted long before he met Jack. He definitely was conditioned to think it was wrong, because his father and society inculcated that in his mind, but I don't think he felt it was justified. He was clearly horrified at Earl's death. And the way he talked of his father, wasn't one of admiration. He thought his father had killed Earl, and he clearly felt his father would do the same to him. No matter what brainwashing his father and society inculcated in him, Ennis wasn't a hateful person. Ennis just knew the rules and he did his best to play by them...because he an immense fear of what would happen if he didn't...but then came Jack and changed that. With Jack, the real Ennis came out. Of course, when he wasn't with Jack he just went back to playing by the rules and pretending to be what was expected of him...but he was never the same as before he'd met Jack. Before he'd met Jack, he'd done a decent job of lying to himself, after he met Jack, he could no longer really do that because his love of Jack proved who he really was...something completely different from what his father and society had conditioned him to be. The fact of what Ennis is like when you take society out of the picture, shows us what Ennis really felt and who he really was. When he was alone with Jack on Brokeback Mountain, and society was forgotten, Ennis was free to be himself. This proves that society is the reason why Ennis doesn't listen to Jack. He wants to always be with Jack, but he knows they can't just live on Brokeback Mountain away from society. If they were to always be together, they would have to live together in front of society...and therefore they would be seen. It shows us what Ennis really feared and what kept him apart from Jack all those years. It was not his own feelings he feared. It was society's reaction to those feelings being found out.
This is certainly an interesting point of view -- I had never really looked at it this way, but find it reasonable. Personally, I interpret the nearly 20 years of struggle after 63 as an increasing internal battle withing Ennis, where the pressures and expectations of society and his failed marriage served to reinfornce his denial -- which is why I thought he still kept on distinguishing himself from Jack ("Boys like you") even during the final confrontation. This was a sign for me that he was still very much in denial.
But your view that rather than denuial, he increasingly felt like a misfit is also reasonable. It would explain a number of things just as well, IMO, except perhaps for the insistence that he was not like Jack in a very fundamental level (i.e., deeper than just sexual appetite and experimentation.)
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Yeah, Athena, you're right, Ennis knew who he really was, but that doesn't mean that he accepted that. I mean, you can KNOW you're small or dark haired but maybe you DON'T like that. In the same way you can KNOW that you are gay and even you can be trying to accept it but that doesn't mean you like your sexuality. That's homophobia too. I don't think Ennis liked being gay. He loved Jack, that's for sure, but he didn't see himself like a queer cause he didn't like being gay, in fact, he was ashamed of that. It's different to love Jack and to like being gay. Ennis could separate that.
Think about after FNIT. He said to Jack that he wasn't queer. He could have said that in a bar full of tough men, in front of his brother or Alma, or in another place where he had to proud he was straight. But he said it to Jack!! Jack who was gay, who has been having sex with him the night before. He had nothing to prove to Jack. He said that cause he REALLY didn’t think about himself like a queer.
Also, I don’t think Ennis’ father showed him that crime cause he sensed that his son was gay. He also showed that to KE. And in the SS Ennis talks about his childhood and he not only didn’t show any sing of being gay, but also he showed that he was very tough fighting with his brother and all.
I think his father did that like many fathers show things they think are right or wrong to their sons. I mean, a racist father can show to his son a film about Nazis saying that’s right ( ^*) ^*) ), and he does that cause he wants his son to be like him not cause he senses that his son is gonna love someone of another race. The same when your father tries to make you fan of his football team. He wants you to be like him, to learn the things he thinks are right, not cause he sees you different.
OMG I don’t know is this makes sense. I really have problems with my English. Sorry. ^f^
I really think also that Ennis somehow hated himself for what he felt and,in the end,for what he was.What's more,in some extent,there were moments in which he also arrived to the point of hating Jack for what he had made him feel; is what I've said some times about the fight just before coming down from the mountain.He was frustrated for letting his true love running away from him,for having to live without him and how society dictated him-what he blindly had accepted up to that moment,even if he knew inside him that perhaps wasn´t the best way...-; but he also feel frustrated and angry with himself ,and with Jack for having awaken a part of his sexuality and his being,in sum,that had been perfectly hidden and what he guessed it was going very difficult to live with in the environment that surrounded him.
That was the "lesson" he learned from his father that-I agree with you,Tammy- not only showed the results of being different to Ennis,but also to his brother.It's supposed that Mr. Del Mar didn't think both his sons were,or were going to be,gay,but that this was the most effective way to run away from this tendency.He wanted his sons to be just like him,not for an stupid proud,but because he really and fully believed that he was ín truth´s possession and this admitted no discussion...(a very distinctive sign of extremist thought).And I've always thought that this "contra-teaching" had,partly,the contrary effect in young Ennis mind;he rejected homosexuality,on one side,but he felt attracted to it,on the other side.It's usual that a prohibition-without reasoning it- creates a wish,sometimes even stronger.He saw love in Earl and Ritchie,but at the same time he saw how this love-gay love...-was punished just for being "different"; reject and attraction to it,reject and attraction to Jack,reject and attraction to himself.I don't know either if this makes sense-my English is also what it's...-,but it's something I've seen many times in repressed persons.JMO.
Yes, this is what I meant -- knowledge and acceptance are 2 different things... Knowledge deep inside certainly didn't save Ennis from a sense of self-loathing, IMO.
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I guess Ennis could separate truly loving Jack with liking being gay, or such, because he was inculcated with anti-gay messages by his father, so he couldn't be completely comfortable with being gay. As a matter of fact, I don't think Ennis was comfortable with any sort of sexuality. But what is for sure is his pure, deep, true love for Jack, and in feeling free and comfortable and happy when he was alone with him, something he never felt anywhere else. He saw the love that he and Jack had as something that transcended everything, so could therefore separate it from the label "gay". His biggest fear was not really of his own feelings, (yes, he's afraid of his own feelings at the very beginning, right before and after FNIT, but soon that gives way because the true love he feels for Jack is so pure, passionate, and deep) but that of people finding out because of what they might do to them, but his feelings for Jack are so strong, that he isn't afraid to kiss him in front of his house where they could easily be seen (and are in fact seen by Alma). That's definitely the power of true love! :) There were definitely no reins on a love so pure and deep.
As for exactly why Ennis's father showed his sons that gruesome sight, yes he did it because he wanted them to be exactly like him. But think about this. Why would someone go to such great lengths to make someone be like them, if they aren't afraid that they might turn out different from them? They would have to have some inkling that their children might not be exactly what they expect...so to reinforce that they take measures like that. I mean, Ennis's father raised his sons, and growing up, he told them what he thought was wrong and right, but to actually show a nine year-old and an eleven year-old child such a gruesome, traumatizing scene...that's not just telling them that it's wrong to be homosexual...that's to scare them. Your analogy of a racist father showing his children that he thinks Nazis are "right", is to inculcate his beliefs into them and make them like himself, right. But what if that same father showed his children that he'd murdered a white man for being in love with a black woman, or laughed at a German getting killed by Nazis because he helped Jews in WWII? That takes the hate even a step further in that now he's instilling fear in his children to make sure that they turn out exactly the way he wants them to. He's telling his kids that "there will be deadly consequences if you aren't like me" This is what Ennis's father did. He was not only inculcating his homophobia into his sons...he was instilling fear in them to not become homosexual themselves, or else they would end up tortured and murdered like Earl.
hmm intresting points there athena :s)
i especially thought the bit on ennis being a uncomfortable with any sexuality i always assumed when he looked uncomfortable with alma it was because his true love was jack but then maybe it goes deeper maybe he was uncomfortable with it for other reasons...
although i am sure being in love with jack was a main factor at his discomfort with alma and sex but maybe its not all...
I agree zankou about the points raised by athena. It only shows that one continuously learns new things about what this film means to us and how it speaks to us in slightly moduulated ways.
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hmm intresting points there athena :s)
i especially thought the bit on ennis being a uncomfortable with any sexuality i always assumed when he looked uncomfortable with alma it was because his true love was jack but then maybe it goes deeper maybe he was uncomfortable with it for other reasons...
although i am sure being in love with jack was a main factor at his discomfort with alma and sex but maybe its not all...
I agree that he was definitely uncomfortable with Alma because his true love was Jack, but I don't ever really see Ennis as being comfortable with sexuality in general. He was only comfortable when he was alone with Jack, but I think that's because Ennis was able in his mind to distinguish being with Jack from sexuality. The love he felt for Jack was so pure and true and deep that it transcended mere things like sexuality. When I really look at it, Ennis was indeed never comfortable with any sexuality, like he felt there was something wrong or "unclean" about the actual act of sex, no matter who it was with.
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I agree that he was definitely uncomfortable with Alma because his true love was Jack, but I don't ever really see Ennis as being comfortable with sexuality in general. He was only comfortable when he was alone with Jack, but I think that's because Ennis was able in his mind to distinguish being with Jack from sexuality. The love he felt for Jack was so pure and true and deep that it transcended mere things like sexuality. When I really look at it, Ennis was indeed never comfortable with any sexuality, like he felt there was something wrong or "unclean" about the actual act of sex, no matter who it was with.
hmmm quite possible :s)
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I agree that he was definitely uncomfortable with Alma because his true love was Jack, but I don't ever really see Ennis as being comfortable with sexuality in general. He was only comfortable when he was alone with Jack, but I think that's because Ennis was able in his mind to distinguish being with Jack from sexuality. The love he felt for Jack was so pure and true and deep that it transcended mere things like sexuality. When I really look at it, Ennis was indeed never comfortable with any sexuality, like he felt there was something wrong or "unclean" about the actual act of sex, no matter who it was with.
Yes,I've also thought about this sensation sometimes; as a matter of fact,I say in another place that Ennis point of view about sexuality in general,became seriously distorted,surely,for his childhood memories.Memories of an image his father showed them,as you say and as I also tried to say,as a way to scare them,for being like he was.But being like he was meant NOT BEING A PAIR OF QUEER in the future,according to his stupid sense of what a real man must be.He thought that scare two children in the moment their sexual and emotional being is forming is the best way to having them apart of these "vices".But sometimes this is like a ball that crashes on your face,as you obtain all the contrary;and I guess this is what happenned with Mr.Del Mar intentions,at least with Ennis.Persons who have been very repressed sexually speaking-f.e.,having studied in a religious boarding school-in their childhood and adolescence,are very often the most active afterwards,sometimes rather more than another person with another more permissive kind of education.Sociologically proved,don't you think so?.
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Yes,I've also thought about this sensation sometimes; as a matter of fact,I say in another place that Ennis point of view about sexuality in general,became seriously distorted,surely,for his childhood memories.Memories of an image his father showed them,as you say and as I also tried to say,as a way to scare them,for being like he was.But being like he was meant NOT BEING A PAIR OF QUEER in the future,according to his stupid sense of what a real man must be.He thought that scare two children in the moment their sexual and emotional being is forming is the best way to having them apart of these "vices".But sometimes this is like a ball that crashes on your face,as you obtain all the contrary;and I guess this is what happenned with Mr.Del Mar intentions,at least with Ennis.Persons who have been very repressed sexually speaking-f.e.,having studied in a religious boarding school-in their childhood and adolescence,are very often the most active afterwards,sometimes rather more than another person with another more permissive kind of education.Sociologically proved,don't you think so?.
I do believe that Ennis was uncomfortable with sexuality in general, yes. I also see Alma as like that too. Society often conditions women to not be comfortable with sexuality because it doesn't deem it "acceptable". That's why I find the character of Cassie so interesting. Cassie is very similar to Jack. Both of them are in a society which tells them to not be comfortable with sexuality, yet they are completely comfortable with it, and they don't care what others think. They make no apologies for who they are, and thus really foil characters like Ennis and Alma who are repressed and feel there's something impure about sexuality. As for whether being so repressed made Ennis more sexual...I don't really know. Jack always had a higher sex drive than Ennis, that's for sure. Ennis seems content to be celibate, like after all those years, despite everything, and despite feeling comfortable with Jack, and being able to be himself around him, and truly loving him...Ennis is still never, ever completely comfortable with sexuality, and perhaps he could never be; he still thinks there's something wrong about it. That makes me wonder how he dealt with Cassie.
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I do believe that Ennis was uncomfortable with sexuality in general, yes. I also see Alma as like that too. Society often conditions women to not be comfortable with sexuality because it doesn't deem it "acceptable". That's why I find the character of Cassie so interesting. Cassie is very similar to Jack. Both of them are in a society which tells them to not be comfortable with sexuality, yet they are completely comfortable with it, and they don't care what others think. They make no apologies for who they are, and thus really foil characters like Ennis and Alma who are repressed and feel there's something impure about sexuality. As for whether being so repressed made Ennis more sexual...I don't really know. Jack always had a higher sex drive than Ennis, that's for sure. Ennis seems content to be celibate, like after all those years, despite everything, and despite feeling comfortable with Jack, and being able to be himself around him, and truly loving him...Ennis is still never, ever completely comfortable with sexuality, and perhaps he could never be; he still thinks there's something wrong about it. That makes me wonder how he dealt with Cassie.
No,I didn't express myself well again ~) : I've never seen Ennis as more sexual for having been repressed.On the contrary,I've thought mainly that he had a distorted and guilty vision about not only homosexuality,but about sexuality in general.His stoicism "disguise" reached even this most intime and deep aspect of his life-or precisely for being his most intime and deep ones...-.What I meant is that very often repression-in one sense or another...-can have a contrary effect;persons educated in a very radical religious context ,they become very active sexually speaking in a great amount of them.And in Ennis case,we can't speak properly about "sexual repression",but better about "homosexual repressed"; in both cases,however,the result is frequently the contrary the repressors want to get.
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No,I didn't express myself well again ~) : I've never seen Ennis as more sexual for having been repressed.On the contrary,I've thought mainly that he had a distorted and guilty vision about not only homosexuality,but about sexuality in general.His stoicism "disguise" reached even this most intime and deep aspect of his life-or precisely for being his most intime and deep ones...-.What I meant is that very often repression-in one sense or another...-can have a contrary effect;persons educated in a very radical religious context ,they become very active sexually speaking in a great amount of them.And in Ennis case,we can't speak properly about "sexual repression",but better about "homosexual repressed"; in both cases,however,the result is frequently the contrary the repressors want to get.
I agree with you. Ennis' stoicism is actually hiding very intense feelings. Feelings that come out either in explosive anger, or in rough and intense love making, as in FNIT. Even SNIT, he was experiencing extreme emotions that surprised even Jack, who immediately took advantage of it and rode him to higher levels. I don't think Alma would be able to return the passion the same way. It's why Ennis and Jack are meant for each other. Jack is the key to unlocking all the passion inside of Ennis.
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I agree with you. Ennis' stoicism is actually hiding very intense feelings. Feelings that come out either in explosive anger, or in rough and intense love making, as in FNIT. Even SNIT, he was experiencing extreme emotions that surprised even Jack, who immediately took advantage of it and rode him to higher levels. I don't think Alma would be able to return the passion the same way. It's why Ennis and Jack are meant for each other. Jack is the key to unlocking all the passion inside of Ennis.
i like that whole key metaphor :)
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But going back to the subject of Ennis's father... ;)