Topic: Ennis's father

[tpe]

It seems to me that Ennis's father created in Ennis's mind a kind of hierarchy of vlaues and the most highly rated was of being tough and stereotypically male. Ennis evidently admired that aspect of Earl and Rich, but his father's attitude made it clear that toughness and success as a rancher were worth little if they were undermined by his sexuality.Ennis has been working on ranches with his brother - he has come to BBM to work and is so far trying ot live up to his father's remplate of the real man. He is engaged when he arrives, going to marry when he leaves - so far so conventional.
Jack undermines all this though - Jack isn't married or planning to be, isn't interested in being a rancher, doesn't have any respect for Aguirre or his rules, has broken away from his own father - in essence he shows Ennis a different way of being a man, long before they become lovers.He's almost the antithesis of Ennis's father, and begins turning Ennis into that too, which is part of the reason Ennis is so conflicted - he's being invited to reject everything his father tired to ingrain in him, about work as well as who it's possible to love.

I should learn not to respond before reading all the recent posts. 

Yes, this is waht I had in mind in my last post.

[athena0204]

It seems to me that Ennis's father created in Ennis's mind a kind of hierarchy of vlaues and the most highly rated was of being tough and stereotypically male. Ennis evidently admired that aspect of Earl and Rich, but his father's attitude made it clear that toughness and success as a rancher were worth little if they were undermined by his sexuality.Ennis has been working on ranches with his brother - he has come to BBM to work and is so far trying ot live up to his father's remplate of the real man. He is engaged when he arrives, going to marry when he leaves - so far so conventional.
Jack undermines all this though - Jack isn't married or planning to be, isn't interested in being a rancher, doesn't have any respect for Aguirre or his rules, has broken away from his own father - in essence he shows Ennis a different way of being a man, long before they become lovers.He's almost the antithesis of Ennis's father, and begins turning Ennis into that too, which is part of the reason Ennis is so conflicted - he's being invited to reject everything his father tired to ingrain in him, about work as well as who it's possible to love.

Oh yes, this true. Before he meets Jack, he's been conditioned with what his father inculcated in him, but deep down inside, he's always known that he isn't exactly the person his father envisioned he should be, but Ennis is trying his best to be, his best to conform to the life that's expected of him. But of course, then everything changes...then comes the summer of 1963, and along comes Jack, and he turns Ennis's world upside-down.

[athena0204]

Honestly, I thought that a part of Ennis did think that his feelings for Jack were wrong/immoral.  I felt that he could never accept the implications of his actions to the very end of Jack's life: "I'm not queer", "Boy's like you", "This thing".  This is separate from the fear of reprisal/censure from society at large, and a part of Ennis probably felt that society was justified, IMO. 

I do agree that when he first met Jack, he did feel it was wrong, at the very beginning. But he'd had a battle raging inside him for years. He was striving to be what society expected him to be, but deep down inside he had always known he was different. After he meets Jack, before the FNIT, he has these strong and deep feelings for this man, but the battle is raging inside him to fight these feelings, because he had been conditioned to think it was wrong. After FNIT, he tries to reconcile himself in saying "I'm not queer." and "This is a one-shot deal." In saying these things, he's fighting with himself. His heart has these feelings of love for Jack, his head, which has been conditioned by his father, is telling him..."You're wrong to feel this." He's struggling inside himself. Then comes the the night of SNIT, and when Ennis decides to walk into that tent and be with Jack, he isn't listening to that conditioned part of his mind at all. He knows he loves Jack, this is what he feels, this is what he wants in his life. From that night on, Ennis doesn't truly feel his feelings for Jack are wrong/immoral anymore. But he still has that immense fear of being found out...and that's the battle that rages on in him for the next twenty years. The fear of what will happen to him now that his true self is out, feeling that he had no choice but to go back and live the life that's expected of him. This is why Ennis later tells Jack "It's because of you that I'm this way." What he means by that is that he thinks it's because of Jack that he's feeling so miserable. Jack came along and broke his conditioning, he brought his real self out, he showed him what true love is, and Ennis perhaps feels that if Jack had never come along, he could have continued being what society wanted him to be, perhaps being content having never experienced anything else. But after he met Jack, Ennis could no longer do that. His feelings for Jack clashed with everything that society expected and inculcated, and Ennis could no longer deny who he truly was deep down inside. Therefore, he spent twenty years feeling like a misfit in society, trying so hard to keep his cover and do what's expected of him, but knowing where is heart truly lay. And I don't think he felt society was justified after he met Jack. I don't think Ennis had ever really felt that to begin with, since he was already so conflicted long before he met Jack. He definitely was conditioned to think it was wrong, because his father and society inculcated that in his mind, but I don't think he felt it was justified. He was clearly horrified at Earl's death. And the way he talked of his father, wasn't one of admiration. He thought his father had killed Earl, and he clearly felt his father would do the same to him. No matter what brainwashing his father and society inculcated in him, Ennis wasn't a hateful person. Ennis just knew the rules and he did his best to play by them...because he an immense fear of what would happen if he didn't...but then came Jack and changed that. With Jack, the real Ennis came out. Of course, when he wasn't with Jack he just went back to playing by the rules and pretending to be what was expected of him...but he was never the same as before he'd met Jack. Before he'd met Jack, he'd done a decent job of lying to himself, after he met Jack, he could no longer really do that because his love of Jack proved who he really was...something completely different from what his father and society had conditioned him to be. The fact of what Ennis is like when you take society out of the picture, shows us what Ennis really felt and who he really was. When he was alone with Jack on Brokeback Mountain, and society was forgotten, Ennis was free to be himself. This proves that society is the reason why Ennis doesn't listen to Jack. He wants to always be with Jack, but he knows they can't just live on Brokeback Mountain away from society. If they were to always be together, they would have to live together in front of society...and therefore they would be seen. It shows us what Ennis really feared and what kept him apart from Jack all those years. It was not his own feelings he feared. It was society's reaction to those feelings being found out.

[babytammy7]

Honestly, I thought that a part of Ennis did think that his feelings for Jack were wrong/immoral.  I felt that he could never accept the implications of his actions to the very end of Jack's life: "I'm not queer", "Boy's like you", "This thing".  This is separate from the fear of reprisal/censure from society at large, and a part of Ennis probably felt that society was justified, IMO. 

Yeah, Thomas, I totally agree. I remember Tony, other brokies, you and me talking about Ennis homophobia in another thread. We said there that Ennis was not only afraid of society but he was ashamed of what he was feeling. He said clearly that all town laughed at Earl and Rich and that is something that Ennis couldn't stand. Also, like you said and I wanted to say, the statement "boys like you" shows that Ennis thinks that his own sexuality is different from Jack's.

At first I was not sure about all, but Annie created Ennis, she is indeed Ennis and she said that Ennis was homophobic. So I have to count on that.

[Matt Nasty]

Yeah, Thomas, I totally agree. I remember Tony, other brokies, you and me talking about Ennis homophobia in another thread. We said there that Ennis was not only afraid of society but he was ashamed of what he was feeling. He said clearly that all town laughed at Earl and Rich and that is something that Ennis couldn't stand. Also, like you said and I wanted to say, the statement "boys like you" shows that Ennis thinks that his own sexuality is different from Jack's.

At first I was not sure about all, but Annie created Ennis, she is indeed Ennis and she said that Ennis was homophobic. So I have to count on that.

hmmm good point.

[athena0204]

Yeah, Thomas, I totally agree. I remember Tony, other brokies, you and me talking about Ennis homophobia in another thread. We said there that Ennis was not only afraid of society but he was ashamed of what he was feeling. He said clearly that all town laughed at Earl and Rich and that is something that Ennis couldn't stand. Also, like you said and I wanted to say, the statement "boys like you" shows that Ennis thinks that his own sexuality is different from Jack's.

At first I was not sure about all, but Annie created Ennis, she is indeed Ennis and she said that Ennis was homophobic. So I have to count on that.

Yeah, he did fight his feelings at first, at the very very beginning of his relationship with Jack. Because he was conditioned to be a certain way by his father. However, I still stand by everything I've said. I believe what it really amounted to was Ennis's fear of society. He knew who he really was deep down inside, and he knew exactly what society would think of it.

[Matt Nasty]

Yeah, he did fight his feelings at first, at the very very beginning of his relationship with Jack. Because he was conditioned to be a certain way by his father. However, I still stand by everything I've said. I believe what it really amounted to was Ennis's fear of society. He knew who he really was deep down inside, and he knew exactly what society would think of it.

i think ennis was homophobic but what is important to remember is homophobic doesnt always mean you dislike gay people it can mean you are affraid of homosexuality so in this way ennis fear about societys views on homosexuals and his own homophobia were the same his fear of being gay was because his fear of society if you understand my meaning.

[babytammy7]

Yeah, he did fight his feelings at first, at the very very beginning of his relationship with Jack. Because he was conditioned to be a certain way by his father. However, I still stand by everything I've said. I believe what it really amounted to was Ennis's fear of society. He knew who he really was deep down inside, and he knew exactly what society would think of it.

Yeah, Athena, you're right, Ennis knew who he really was, but that doesn't mean that he accepted that. I mean, you can KNOW you're small or dark haired but maybe you DON'T like that. In the same way you can KNOW that you are gay and even you can be trying to accept it but that doesn't mean you like your sexuality. That's homophobia too. I don't think Ennis liked being gay. He loved Jack, that's for sure, but he didn't see himself like a queer cause he didn't like being gay, in fact, he was ashamed of that. It's different to love Jack and to like being gay. Ennis could separate that.

Think about after FNIT. He said to Jack that he wasn't queer. He could have said that in a bar full of tough men, in front of his brother or Alma, or in another place where he had to proud he was straight. But he said it to Jack!! Jack who was gay, who has been having sex with him the night before. He had nothing to prove to Jack. He said that cause he REALLY didn’t think about himself like a queer.

Also, I don’t think Ennis’ father showed him that crime cause he sensed that his son was gay. He also showed that to KE. And in the SS Ennis talks about his childhood and he not only didn’t show any sing of being gay, but also he showed that he was very tough fighting with his brother and all.
I think his father did that like many fathers show things they think are right or wrong to their sons. I mean, a racist father can show to his son a film about Nazis saying that’s right (   ), and he does that cause he wants his son to be like him not cause he senses that his son is gonna love someone of another race. The same when your father tries to make you fan of his football team. He wants you to be like him, to learn the things he thinks are right, not cause he sees you different.

OMG I don’t know is this makes sense. I really have problems with my English. Sorry. 

[Matt Nasty]

Yeah, Athena, you're right, Ennis knew who he really was, but that doesn't mean that he accepted that. I mean, you can KNOW you're small or dark haired but maybe you DON'T like that. In the same way you can KNOW that you are gay and even you can be trying to accept it but that doesn't mean you like your sexuality. That's homophobia too. I don't think Ennis liked being gay. He loved Jack, that's for sure, but he didn't see himself like a queer cause he didn't like being gay, in fact, he was ashamed of that. It's different to love Jack and to like being gay. Ennis could separate that.

Think about after FNIT. He said to Jack that he wasn't queer. He could have said that in a bar full of tough men, in front of his brother or Alma, or in another place where he had to proud he was straight. But he said it to Jack!! Jack who was gay, who has been having sex with him the night before. He had nothing to prove to Jack. He said that cause he REALLY didn’t think about himself like a queer.

Also, I don’t think Ennis’ father showed him that crime cause he sensed that his son was gay. He also showed that to KE. And in the SS Ennis talks about his childhood and he not only didn’t show any sing of being gay, but also he showed that he was very tough fighting with his brother and all.
I think his father did that like many fathers show things they think are right or wrong to their sons. I mean, a racist father can show to his son a film about Nazis saying that’s right (   ), and he does that cause he wants his son to be like him not cause he senses that his son is gonna love someone of another race. The same when your father tries to make you fan of his football team. He wants you to be like him, to learn the things he thinks are right, not cause he sees you different.

OMG I don’t know is this makes sense. I really have problems with my English. Sorry. 

good post, and dont worry it made perfect sense

[myprivatejack]

I really think also that Ennis somehow hated himself for what he felt and,in the end,for what he was.What's more,in some extent,there were moments in which he also arrived to the point of hating Jack for what he had made him feel; is what I've said some times about the fight just before coming down from the mountain.He was frustrated for letting his true love running away from him,for having to live without him and how society dictated him-what he blindly had accepted up to that moment,even if he knew inside him that perhaps wasn´t the best way...-; but he also feel frustrated and angry with himself ,and with Jack for having awaken a part of his sexuality and his being,in sum,that had been perfectly hidden and what he guessed it was going very difficult to live with in the environment that surrounded him.
That was the "lesson" he learned from his father that-I agree with you,Tammy- not only showed the results of being different to Ennis,but also to his brother.It's supposed that Mr. Del Mar didn't think both his sons were,or were going to be,gay,but that this was the most effective way to run away from this tendency.He wanted his sons to be just like him,not for an stupid proud,but because he really and fully believed that he was ín truth´s possession and this admitted no discussion...(a very distinctive sign of extremist thought).And I've always thought that this "contra-teaching" had,partly,the contrary effect in young Ennis mind;he rejected homosexuality,on one side,but he felt attracted to it,on the other side.It's usual that a prohibition-without reasoning it- creates a wish,sometimes even stronger.He saw love in Earl and Ritchie,but at the same time he saw how this love-gay love...-was punished just for being "different"; reject and attraction to it,reject and attraction to Jack,reject and attraction to himself.I don't know either if this makes sense-my English is also what it's...-,but it's something I've seen many times in repressed persons.JMO.

[athena0204]

Yeah, Athena, you're right, Ennis knew who he really was, but that doesn't mean that he accepted that. I mean, you can KNOW you're small or dark haired but maybe you DON'T like that. In the same way you can KNOW that you are gay and even you can be trying to accept it but that doesn't mean you like your sexuality. That's homophobia too. I don't think Ennis liked being gay. He loved Jack, that's for sure, but he didn't see himself like a queer cause he didn't like being gay, in fact, he was ashamed of that. It's different to love Jack and to like being gay. Ennis could separate that.

Think about after FNIT. He said to Jack that he wasn't queer. He could have said that in a bar full of tough men, in front of his brother or Alma, or in another place where he had to proud he was straight. But he said it to Jack!! Jack who was gay, who has been having sex with him the night before. He had nothing to prove to Jack. He said that cause he REALLY didn’t think about himself like a queer.

Also, I don’t think Ennis’ father showed him that crime cause he sensed that his son was gay. He also showed that to KE. And in the SS Ennis talks about his childhood and he not only didn’t show any sing of being gay, but also he showed that he was very tough fighting with his brother and all.
I think his father did that like many fathers show things they think are right or wrong to their sons. I mean, a racist father can show to his son a film about Nazis saying that’s right (   ), and he does that cause he wants his son to be like him not cause he senses that his son is gonna love someone of another race. The same when your father tries to make you fan of his football team. He wants you to be like him, to learn the things he thinks are right, not cause he sees you different.

OMG I don’t know is this makes sense. I really have problems with my English. Sorry. 

I really think also that Ennis somehow hated himself for what he felt and,in the end,for what he was.What's more,in some extent,there were moments in which he also arrived to the point of hating Jack for what he had made him feel; is what I've said some times about the fight just before coming down from the mountain.He was frustrated for letting his true love running away from him,for having to live without him and how society dictated him-what he blindly had accepted up to that moment,even if he knew inside him that perhaps wasn´t the best way...-; but he also feel frustrated and angry with himself ,and with Jack for having awaken a part of his sexuality and his being,in sum,that had been perfectly hidden and what he guessed it was going very difficult to live with in the environment that surrounded him.
That was the "lesson" he learned from his father that-I agree with you,Tammy- not only showed the results of being different to Ennis,but also to his brother.It's supposed that Mr. Del Mar didn't think both his sons were,or were going to be,gay,but that this was the most effective way to run away from this tendency.He wanted his sons to be just like him,not for an stupid proud,but because he really and fully believed that he was ín truth´s possession and this admitted no discussion...(a very distinctive sign of extremist thought).And I've always thought that this "contra-teaching" had,partly,the contrary effect in young Ennis mind;he rejected homosexuality,on one side,but he felt attracted to it,on the other side.It's usual that a prohibition-without reasoning it- creates a wish,sometimes even stronger.He saw love in Earl and Ritchie,but at the same time he saw how this love-gay love...-was punished just for being "different"; reject and attraction to it,reject and attraction to Jack,reject and attraction to himself.I don't know either if this makes sense-my English is also what it's...-,but it's something I've seen many times in repressed persons.JMO.

I guess Ennis could separate truly loving Jack with liking being gay, or such, because he was inculcated with anti-gay messages by his father, so he couldn't be completely comfortable with being gay. As a matter of fact, I don't think Ennis was comfortable with any sort of sexuality. But what is for sure is his pure, deep, true love for Jack, and in feeling free and comfortable and happy when he was alone with him, something he never felt anywhere else. He saw the love that he and Jack had as something that transcended everything, so could therefore separate it from the label "gay". His biggest fear was not really of his own feelings, (yes, he's afraid of his own feelings at the very beginning, right before and after FNIT, but soon that gives way because the true love he feels for Jack is so pure, passionate, and deep) but that of people finding out because of what they might do to them, but his feelings for Jack are so strong, that he isn't afraid to kiss him in front of his house where they could easily be seen (and are in fact seen by Alma). That's definitely the power of true love!  There were definitely no reins on a love so pure and deep.

As for exactly why Ennis's father showed his sons that gruesome sight, yes he did it because he wanted them to be exactly like him. But think about this. Why would someone go to such great lengths to make someone be like them, if they aren't afraid that they might turn out different from them? They would have to have some inkling that their children might not be exactly what they expect...so to reinforce that they take measures like that. I mean, Ennis's father raised his sons, and growing up, he told them what he thought was wrong and right, but to actually show a nine year-old and an eleven year-old child such a gruesome, traumatizing scene...that's not just telling them that it's wrong to be homosexual...that's to scare them. Your analogy of a racist father showing his children that he thinks Nazis are "right", is to inculcate his beliefs into them and make them like himself, right. But what if that same father showed his children that he'd murdered a white man for being in love with a black woman, or laughed at a German getting killed by Nazis because he helped Jews in WWII? That takes the hate even a step further in that now he's instilling fear in his children to make sure that they turn out exactly the way he wants them to. He's telling his kids that "there will be deadly consequences if you aren't like me" This is what Ennis's father did. He was not only inculcating his homophobia into his sons...he was instilling fear in them to not become homosexual themselves, or else they would end up tortured and murdered like Earl.

[Matt Nasty]

hmm intresting points there athena 
i especially thought the bit on ennis being a uncomfortable with any sexuality i always assumed when he looked uncomfortable with alma it was because his true love was jack but then maybe it goes deeper maybe he was uncomfortable with it for other reasons...
although i am sure being in love with jack was a main factor at his discomfort with alma and sex but maybe its not all...

[tpe]

I do agree that when he first met Jack, he did feel it was wrong, at the very beginning. But he'd had a battle raging inside him for years. He was striving to be what society expected him to be, but deep down inside he had always known he was different. After he meets Jack, before the FNIT, he has these strong and deep feelings for this man, but the battle is raging inside him to fight these feelings, because he had been conditioned to think it was wrong. After FNIT, he tries to reconcile himself in saying "I'm not queer." and "This is a one-shot deal." In saying these things, he's fighting with himself. His heart has these feelings of love for Jack, his head, which has been conditioned by his father, is telling him..."You're wrong to feel this." He's struggling inside himself. Then comes the the night of SNIT, and when Ennis decides to walk into that tent and be with Jack, he isn't listening to that conditioned part of his mind at all. He knows he loves Jack, this is what he feels, this is what he wants in his life. From that night on, Ennis doesn't truly feel his feelings for Jack are wrong/immoral anymore. But he still has that immense fear of being found out...and that's the battle that rages on in him for the next twenty years. The fear of what will happen to him now that his true self is out, feeling that he had no choice but to go back and live the life that's expected of him. This is why Ennis later tells Jack "It's because of you that I'm this way." What he means by that is that he thinks it's because of Jack that he's feeling so miserable. Jack came along and broke his conditioning, he brought his real self out, he showed him what true love is, and Ennis perhaps feels that if Jack had never come along, he could have continued being what society wanted him to be, perhaps being content having never experienced anything else. But after he met Jack, Ennis could no longer do that. His feelings for Jack clashed with everything that society expected and inculcated, and Ennis could no longer deny who he truly was deep down inside. Therefore, he spent twenty years feeling like a misfit in society, trying so hard to keep his cover and do what's expected of him, but knowing where is heart truly lay. And I don't think he felt society was justified after he met Jack. I don't think Ennis had ever really felt that to begin with, since he was already so conflicted long before he met Jack. He definitely was conditioned to think it was wrong, because his father and society inculcated that in his mind, but I don't think he felt it was justified. He was clearly horrified at Earl's death. And the way he talked of his father, wasn't one of admiration. He thought his father had killed Earl, and he clearly felt his father would do the same to him. No matter what brainwashing his father and society inculcated in him, Ennis wasn't a hateful person. Ennis just knew the rules and he did his best to play by them...because he an immense fear of what would happen if he didn't...but then came Jack and changed that. With Jack, the real Ennis came out. Of course, when he wasn't with Jack he just went back to playing by the rules and pretending to be what was expected of him...but he was never the same as before he'd met Jack. Before he'd met Jack, he'd done a decent job of lying to himself, after he met Jack, he could no longer really do that because his love of Jack proved who he really was...something completely different from what his father and society had conditioned him to be. The fact of what Ennis is like when you take society out of the picture, shows us what Ennis really felt and who he really was. When he was alone with Jack on Brokeback Mountain, and society was forgotten, Ennis was free to be himself. This proves that society is the reason why Ennis doesn't listen to Jack. He wants to always be with Jack, but he knows they can't just live on Brokeback Mountain away from society. If they were to always be together, they would have to live together in front of society...and therefore they would be seen. It shows us what Ennis really feared and what kept him apart from Jack all those years. It was not his own feelings he feared. It was society's reaction to those feelings being found out.

This is certainly an interesting point of view -- I had never really looked at it this way, but find it reasonable.  Personally, I interpret the nearly 20 years of struggle after 63 as an increasing internal battle withing Ennis, where the pressures and expectations of society and his failed marriage served to reinfornce his denial -- which is why I thought he still kept on distinguishing himself from Jack ("Boys like you") even during the final confrontation.  This was a sign for me that he was still very much in denial.

But your view that rather than denuial, he increasingly felt like a misfit is also reasonable.  It would explain a number of things just as well, IMO, except perhaps for the insistence that he was not like Jack in a very fundamental level (i.e., deeper than just sexual appetite and experimentation.)

[tpe]

Yeah, Athena, you're right, Ennis knew who he really was, but that doesn't mean that he accepted that. I mean, you can KNOW you're small or dark haired but maybe you DON'T like that. In the same way you can KNOW that you are gay and even you can be trying to accept it but that doesn't mean you like your sexuality. That's homophobia too. I don't think Ennis liked being gay. He loved Jack, that's for sure, but he didn't see himself like a queer cause he didn't like being gay, in fact, he was ashamed of that. It's different to love Jack and to like being gay. Ennis could separate that.

Think about after FNIT. He said to Jack that he wasn't queer. He could have said that in a bar full of tough men, in front of his brother or Alma, or in another place where he had to proud he was straight. But he said it to Jack!! Jack who was gay, who has been having sex with him the night before. He had nothing to prove to Jack. He said that cause he REALLY didn’t think about himself like a queer.

Also, I don’t think Ennis’ father showed him that crime cause he sensed that his son was gay. He also showed that to KE. And in the SS Ennis talks about his childhood and he not only didn’t show any sing of being gay, but also he showed that he was very tough fighting with his brother and all.
I think his father did that like many fathers show things they think are right or wrong to their sons. I mean, a racist father can show to his son a film about Nazis saying that’s right (   ), and he does that cause he wants his son to be like him not cause he senses that his son is gonna love someone of another race. The same when your father tries to make you fan of his football team. He wants you to be like him, to learn the things he thinks are right, not cause he sees you different.

OMG I don’t know is this makes sense. I really have problems with my English. Sorry. 

I really think also that Ennis somehow hated himself for what he felt and,in the end,for what he was.What's more,in some extent,there were moments in which he also arrived to the point of hating Jack for what he had made him feel; is what I've said some times about the fight just before coming down from the mountain.He was frustrated for letting his true love running away from him,for having to live without him and how society dictated him-what he blindly had accepted up to that moment,even if he knew inside him that perhaps wasn´t the best way...-; but he also feel frustrated and angry with himself ,and with Jack for having awaken a part of his sexuality and his being,in sum,that had been perfectly hidden and what he guessed it was going very difficult to live with in the environment that surrounded him.
That was the "lesson" he learned from his father that-I agree with you,Tammy- not only showed the results of being different to Ennis,but also to his brother.It's supposed that Mr. Del Mar didn't think both his sons were,or were going to be,gay,but that this was the most effective way to run away from this tendency.He wanted his sons to be just like him,not for an stupid proud,but because he really and fully believed that he was ín truth´s possession and this admitted no discussion...(a very distinctive sign of extremist thought).And I've always thought that this "contra-teaching" had,partly,the contrary effect in young Ennis mind;he rejected homosexuality,on one side,but he felt attracted to it,on the other side.It's usual that a prohibition-without reasoning it- creates a wish,sometimes even stronger.He saw love in Earl and Ritchie,but at the same time he saw how this love-gay love...-was punished just for being "different"; reject and attraction to it,reject and attraction to Jack,reject and attraction to himself.I don't know either if this makes sense-my English is also what it's...-,but it's something I've seen many times in repressed persons.JMO.

Yes, this is what I meant -- knowledge and acceptance are 2 different things...  Knowledge deep inside certainly didn't save Ennis from a sense of self-loathing, IMO.

[tpe]

I guess Ennis could separate truly loving Jack with liking being gay, or such, because he was inculcated with anti-gay messages by his father, so he couldn't be completely comfortable with being gay. As a matter of fact, I don't think Ennis was comfortable with any sort of sexuality. But what is for sure is his pure, deep, true love for Jack, and in feeling free and comfortable and happy when he was alone with him, something he never felt anywhere else. He saw the love that he and Jack had as something that transcended everything, so could therefore separate it from the label "gay". His biggest fear was not really of his own feelings, (yes, he's afraid of his own feelings at the very beginning, right before and after FNIT, but soon that gives way because the true love he feels for Jack is so pure, passionate, and deep) but that of people finding out because of what they might do to them, but his feelings for Jack are so strong, that he isn't afraid to kiss him in front of his house where they could easily be seen (and are in fact seen by Alma). That's definitely the power of true love!  There were definitely no reins on a love so pure and deep.

As for exactly why Ennis's father showed his sons that gruesome sight, yes he did it because he wanted them to be exactly like him. But think about this. Why would someone go to such great lengths to make someone be like them, if they aren't afraid that they might turn out different from them? They would have to have some inkling that their children might not be exactly what they expect...so to reinforce that they take measures like that. I mean, Ennis's father raised his sons, and growing up, he told them what he thought was wrong and right, but to actually show a nine year-old and an eleven year-old child such a gruesome, traumatizing scene...that's not just telling them that it's wrong to be homosexual...that's to scare them. Your analogy of a racist father showing his children that he thinks Nazis are "right", is to inculcate his beliefs into them and make them like himself, right. But what if that same father showed his children that he'd murdered a white man for being in love with a black woman, or laughed at a German getting killed by Nazis because he helped Jews in WWII? That takes the hate even a step further in that now he's instilling fear in his children to make sure that they turn out exactly the way he wants them to. He's telling his kids that "there will be deadly consequences if you aren't like me" This is what Ennis's father did. He was not only inculcating his homophobia into his sons...he was instilling fear in them to not become homosexual themselves, or else they would end up tortured and murdered like Earl.

hmm intresting points there athena 
i especially thought the bit on ennis being a uncomfortable with any sexuality i always assumed when he looked uncomfortable with alma it was because his true love was jack but then maybe it goes deeper maybe he was uncomfortable with it for other reasons...
although i am sure being in love with jack was a main factor at his discomfort with alma and sex but maybe its not all...

I agree zankou about the points raised by athena.  It only shows that one continuously learns new things about what this film means to us and how it speaks to us in slightly moduulated ways.

[athena0204]

hmm intresting points there athena 
i especially thought the bit on ennis being a uncomfortable with any sexuality i always assumed when he looked uncomfortable with alma it was because his true love was jack but then maybe it goes deeper maybe he was uncomfortable with it for other reasons...
although i am sure being in love with jack was a main factor at his discomfort with alma and sex but maybe its not all...

I agree that he was definitely uncomfortable with Alma because his true love was Jack, but I don't ever really see Ennis as being comfortable with sexuality in general. He was only comfortable when he was alone with Jack, but I think that's because Ennis was able in his mind to distinguish being with Jack from sexuality. The love he felt for Jack was so pure and true and deep that it transcended mere things like sexuality. When I really look at it, Ennis was indeed never comfortable with any sexuality, like he felt there was something wrong or "unclean" about the actual act of sex, no matter who it was with.

[Matt Nasty]

I agree that he was definitely uncomfortable with Alma because his true love was Jack, but I don't ever really see Ennis as being comfortable with sexuality in general. He was only comfortable when he was alone with Jack, but I think that's because Ennis was able in his mind to distinguish being with Jack from sexuality. The love he felt for Jack was so pure and true and deep that it transcended mere things like sexuality. When I really look at it, Ennis was indeed never comfortable with any sexuality, like he felt there was something wrong or "unclean" about the actual act of sex, no matter who it was with.

hmmm quite possible 

[myprivatejack]

I agree that he was definitely uncomfortable with Alma because his true love was Jack, but I don't ever really see Ennis as being comfortable with sexuality in general. He was only comfortable when he was alone with Jack, but I think that's because Ennis was able in his mind to distinguish being with Jack from sexuality. The love he felt for Jack was so pure and true and deep that it transcended mere things like sexuality. When I really look at it, Ennis was indeed never comfortable with any sexuality, like he felt there was something wrong or "unclean" about the actual act of sex, no matter who it was with.

Yes,I've also thought about this sensation sometimes; as a matter of fact,I say in another place that Ennis point of view about sexuality in general,became seriously distorted,surely,for his childhood memories.Memories of an image his father showed them,as you say and as I also tried to say,as a way to scare them,for being like he was.But being like he was meant NOT BEING A PAIR OF QUEER in the future,according to his stupid sense of what a real man must be.He thought that scare two children in the moment their sexual and emotional being is forming is the best way to having them apart of these "vices".But sometimes this is like a ball that crashes on your face,as you obtain all the contrary;and I guess this is what happenned with Mr.Del Mar intentions,at least with Ennis.Persons who have been very repressed sexually speaking-f.e.,having studied in a religious boarding school-in their childhood and adolescence,are very often the most active afterwards,sometimes rather more than another person with another more permissive kind of education.Sociologically proved,don't you think so?.

[athena0204]

Yes,I've also thought about this sensation sometimes; as a matter of fact,I say in another place that Ennis point of view about sexuality in general,became seriously distorted,surely,for his childhood memories.Memories of an image his father showed them,as you say and as I also tried to say,as a way to scare them,for being like he was.But being like he was meant NOT BEING A PAIR OF QUEER in the future,according to his stupid sense of what a real man must be.He thought that scare two children in the moment their sexual and emotional being is forming is the best way to having them apart of these "vices".But sometimes this is like a ball that crashes on your face,as you obtain all the contrary;and I guess this is what happenned with Mr.Del Mar intentions,at least with Ennis.Persons who have been very repressed sexually speaking-f.e.,having studied in a religious boarding school-in their childhood and adolescence,are very often the most active afterwards,sometimes rather more than another person with another more permissive kind of education.Sociologically proved,don't you think so?.

I do believe that Ennis was uncomfortable with sexuality in general, yes. I also see Alma as like that too. Society often conditions women to not be comfortable with sexuality because it doesn't deem it "acceptable". That's why I find the character of Cassie so interesting. Cassie is very similar to Jack. Both of them are in a society which tells them to not be comfortable with sexuality, yet they are completely comfortable with it, and they don't care what others think. They make no apologies for who they are, and thus really foil characters like Ennis and Alma who are repressed and feel there's something impure about sexuality. As for whether being so repressed made Ennis more sexual...I don't really know. Jack always had a higher sex drive than Ennis, that's for sure. Ennis seems content to be celibate, like after all those years, despite everything, and despite feeling comfortable with Jack, and being able to be himself around him, and truly loving him...Ennis is still never, ever completely comfortable with sexuality, and perhaps he could never be; he still thinks there's something wrong about it. That makes me wonder how he dealt with Cassie.

[myprivatejack]

I do believe that Ennis was uncomfortable with sexuality in general, yes. I also see Alma as like that too. Society often conditions women to not be comfortable with sexuality because it doesn't deem it "acceptable". That's why I find the character of Cassie so interesting. Cassie is very similar to Jack. Both of them are in a society which tells them to not be comfortable with sexuality, yet they are completely comfortable with it, and they don't care what others think. They make no apologies for who they are, and thus really foil characters like Ennis and Alma who are repressed and feel there's something impure about sexuality. As for whether being so repressed made Ennis more sexual...I don't really know. Jack always had a higher sex drive than Ennis, that's for sure. Ennis seems content to be celibate, like after all those years, despite everything, and despite feeling comfortable with Jack, and being able to be himself around him, and truly loving him...Ennis is still never, ever completely comfortable with sexuality, and perhaps he could never be; he still thinks there's something wrong about it. That makes me wonder how he dealt with Cassie.

No,I didn't express myself well again : I've never seen Ennis as more sexual for having been repressed.On the contrary,I've thought mainly that he had a distorted and guilty vision about not only homosexuality,but about sexuality in general.His stoicism "disguise" reached even this most intime and deep aspect of his life-or precisely for being his most intime and deep ones...-.What I meant is that very often repression-in one sense or another...-can have a contrary effect;persons educated in a very radical religious context ,they become very active sexually speaking in a great amount of them.And in Ennis case,we can't speak properly about "sexual repression",but better about "homosexual repressed"; in both cases,however,the result is frequently the contrary the repressors want to get.

[lancecowboy]

No,I didn't express myself well again : I've never seen Ennis as more sexual for having been repressed.On the contrary,I've thought mainly that he had a distorted and guilty vision about not only homosexuality,but about sexuality in general.His stoicism "disguise" reached even this most intime and deep aspect of his life-or precisely for being his most intime and deep ones...-.What I meant is that very often repression-in one sense or another...-can have a contrary effect;persons educated in a very radical religious context ,they become very active sexually speaking in a great amount of them.And in Ennis case,we can't speak properly about "sexual repression",but better about "homosexual repressed"; in both cases,however,the result is frequently the contrary the repressors want to get.

I agree with you. Ennis' stoicism is actually hiding very intense feelings. Feelings that come out either in explosive anger, or in rough and intense love making, as in FNIT. Even SNIT, he was experiencing extreme emotions that surprised even Jack, who immediately took advantage of it and rode him to higher levels. I don't think Alma would be able to return the passion the same way. It's why Ennis and Jack are meant for each other. Jack is the key to unlocking all the passion inside of Ennis.

[Matt Nasty]

I agree with you. Ennis' stoicism is actually hiding very intense feelings. Feelings that come out either in explosive anger, or in rough and intense love making, as in FNIT. Even SNIT, he was experiencing extreme emotions that surprised even Jack, who immediately took advantage of it and rode him to higher levels. I don't think Alma would be able to return the passion the same way. It's why Ennis and Jack are meant for each other. Jack is the key to unlocking all the passion inside of Ennis.

i like that whole key metaphor

[tpe]

But going back to the subject of Ennis's father...