Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: lancecowboy on Aug 21, 2009, 09:09 PM
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This is probably way out in left field, but I am just wondering, was Ennis perhaps mildly autistic?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism_spectrum_disorder
The defining characteristics of autism spectrum disorders are qualitative impairments of social communication and interaction, along with restricted and repetitive activities and interests.[8] Individual symptoms occur in the general population and appear not to associate highly, without a sharp line separating pathological severity from common traits.[9] Other aspects of ASD, such as atypical eating, are also common but are not essential for diagnosis; they can affect the individual or the family.
[...]
Making and maintaining friendships often proves to be difficult for children with autism. For them, the quality of friendships, not the number of friends, predicts how lonely they are, despite the common belief that they prefer to be alone.[12] Being on the autism spectrum does not keep children from understanding race and gender stereotypes in a society; like normal children they learn stereotypes by observing their parents' actions, such as locking car doors when in certain neighborhoods.[
Ennis has difficulty with speech in the movie (not in the short story), and repetitively flicking the lighter while waiting for Jack at the reunion, etc.
I am wondering if the traumatic experience at nine, face to face with a dead murdered corpse, might have caused his developing brain to suffer so much, that Ennis became mildly autistic, and his tactile response to Jack during SNIT is also of interest.
Also, his difficulty in controlling his temper, his anger, and almost inability to understand his own emotions, this thing with no reins, has much in common in autism.
Just a thought and wondered what you all think about this.
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I don't know -- although he clearly had a speech impediment. I had attributed iot to a mixture of shyness, insecurity, and loneliness -- of not being used to opening up to people...
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This is probably way out in left field, but I am just wondering, was Ennis perhaps mildly autistic?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism_spectrum_disorder
Ennis has difficulty with speech in the movie (not in the short story), and repetitively flicking the lighter while waiting for Jack at the reunion, etc.
I am wondering if the traumatic experience at nine, face to face with a dead murdered corpse, might have caused his developing brain to suffer so much, that Ennis became mildly autistic, and his tactile response to Jack during SNIT is also of interest.
Also, his difficulty in controlling his temper, his anger, and almost inability to understand his own emotions, this thing with no reins, has much in common in autism.
Just a thought and wondered what you all think about this.
Lancecowboy - I can see why you might believe this, but seriously there was NOTHING physically or mentally wrong with Ennis.
1. Ennis has difficulty with speech in the movie. A lot of people are not very articulate. Ennis managed to speak when he wanted to. Some people like to talk and some people don't like to or feel the need to. In today's 'ME, ME, ME' culture it may be hard to understand someone who doesn't have a constant need to talk.
2. repetitively flicking the lighter while waiting for Jack at the reunion. I just attributed that to nervousness and impatience.
3. his difficulty in controlling his temper, his anger, and almost inability to understand his own emotions. I am the mother of two sons and one daughter, and have three brothers and three sisters. I noticed growing up that my brothers had more trouble with their tempers and their ability to understand their emotions than my sisters did. As a parent I saw that my sons had more trouble than my daughter in those areas.
Also, Ennis was raised on a 'lonely' ranch, he lost his parents at an early age, he didn't have much education (one year of high school). What he lacked was social skills because of the way he was raised.
One more thing, inability to understand his own emotions, this thing with no reins. I was raised in a loving home, but until I met my husband I really didn't know WHAT LOVE FELT LIKE. My parents loved me and cared for me, but they were not very demonstrative. I didn't get hugs and kisses or sweet words. My husband is very affectionate. When my husband and I first started dating, I almost stopped dating him because his affection made me feel uncomfortable.
That's the way parents were in America in the 30's, 40's and 50's - they were encouraged to not spoil their children. Also, children were 'seen and not heard.'
I imagine that Ennis was raised by parents (and later, his brother and sister) with the same 'don't spoil your children' belief.
In regards to 'this thing with no reins', Ennis did not want to be 'queer' so he simply would not face up to his feelings for Jack. Until they had a fight at their last meeting, his relationship with Jack, while not perfect, was working for Ennis.
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thanks for you detailed response, jesseanne and tpe.
I put this out there after watching a few youtube videos that document autistic savants. I was fairly certainly Ennis would not be diagnosed as autistic but the parallel just seemed too much of a coincidence for me.
I also found out yesterday, that the most intelligent of these savants, Daniel Tammet, is openly gay and living with a gorgeous boyfriend in Avignon...living the sweet life. http://www.optimnem.co.uk/blog/index.php
I guess my purpose for this discussion is to shed some light on the difficulties of autistic people, who suffer as Ennis suffered, and that there is hope, such as there was hope for Ennis, if only he was brave enough, and had loving support enough (as in Jack's Ma), to embrace who he was.
Everything you said, of Ennis' lonely upbringing etc, I am in agreement. I think the defining characteristics of autistic disorders are not necessarily a life-long conditions, but mere symptoms of the disorder. The lucky ones, like Daniel Tammet and to extend the parallel, Ennis, when these lucky ones find the loving support they need, can Embrace the Wide Sky, as the title of Daniel's latest book says. :c) ^f^
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This is an interesting topic. I always thought Ennis had problems communicating and interacting with others. He was painfully shy and also scarred from his experience as a child. But it got me to thinking that he might have had Asperger's Syndrome, a lesser form of Autisim. My friend's teenage son has it and he has problems socially interacting and comes off as being shy, disinterested or just not paying attention. He can't express himself well so he's very quiet but also sometimes can explode in anger. Anyway, ty for bringing up this point of view. Something to consider for sure.
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An interesting topic, LC.
It hasn't really come to my mind that Ennis would be autistic but I definitely had thought about his way of dealing with people surrounding him. rimsasworld has described Ennis well the way I would feel about him.
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hi, rimasworld, thanks for the contribution. I was impressed by science's new understanding of autism, in terms of the fuzziness of the disorder. In addition to Asperger's, there is also Autism Spectrum Disorder. Instead of a precise sharp delineation, the fuzzy spectrum shows the many different degrees of the manifestation of the levels of social dysfunction.
For the mildly afflicted, such as Daniel Tammet, they can learn to function with little difficulties. For the more severe cases, even learning social algorithms to function in social situation is insufficient because they will always have difficulty communicating because they lack something that keeps them from understanding others emotionally. It is this lack which prompted me to think of this topic.
For Ennis, his emotional connection with Cassie was never mature until that moment in the diner, when all of a sudden, it was as if scales were lifted from his eyes, and he saw for the first time what Cassie felt, and what he meant to her.
Is it possible that Ennis, all that time with Jack, was only aware of his own "thing with no reins" but not Jack's love and devotion? It would make sense of his reluctance to commit, to feel safe, to reach out and accept Jack's hand, his offer to build a sweet life, because all those moments, the only emotion in his mind was the fear and loathing from the homophobia implanted by his father, not the love that was there with Jack. Just as in the dozy embrace, the only time he would allow himself to feel the love, was when the homophobia was not triggered, in your face, so to speak.
As in the discussion raised by jesseanne, I don't believe Ennis suffers from autism but I see the parallel in terms of the emotional disability.
I am also reminded of another article I read, concerning many children diagnosed with autism recovering totally, after early detection and treatment. As I said earlier, the disability is not necessarily a life-long condition, and that Ennis, by the time he returned from Lightning Flats with the two shirts, by the time he sat down to talk with Junior about love, was certainly very aware of the emotions of himself and of others.
To me, Heath's performance as Ennis Del Mar is simply marvelous in its simple complexity.
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An interesting topic, LC.
It hasn't really come to my mind that Ennis would be autistic but I definitely had thought about his way of dealing with people surrounding him. rimsasworld has described Ennis well the way I would feel about him.
Thanks Ethan, as always, for giving us this forum to explore Brokeback Mountain. It's a huge place and I am never tired of finding new ranges to pitch up a new pup tent. It may smell like cat piss or worse, but it's the company that I treasure. :t) ^f^ :c)
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This movie is so wonderful, always new ideas and concepts to explore.
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This movie is so wonderful, always new ideas and concepts to explore.
yup. that's for sure.
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Oh my! %&)
Never thought of it... but.. I don't think that we can diagnose Ennis accurately from the symptoms seen in the movie. Yet, surely there was some disorder in his behavior! Was is the autism or something else, I don't know!
But it made all those rare moments when he was opening to Jack and showing his beautiful soul - even more precious and lovely! <^(
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Possibly he had a mild form, such as Aspergers, given his difficulties with communciating, making eye contact and being win general. On the other hand, his behaviour may just have been the product of childhood neglect.
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#$# lila70
I am not familiar with the process of diagnosis but I am fairly certain it would be a long and detailed process that requires a lot of information. The limited information we have from the short story and from the movie is just insufficient to make a definitive diagnosis of any certainty and reliability.
What interested me at first in this topic was the plasticity and fuzziness of behavior, of labeling, of the parallel between some (not all, not even most) of Ennis' behavior compared to people who exhibit Asperger's or ASD. The plasticity of the brain allows the evolution of Ennis (from the lonely cowboy, through friendship and transformation, to the loving father, and devoted soulmate) as well as the children who recovers from ASD, and the learned behavior of social adaptation strategies of those who are high functioning.
I guess what I learned is that "was Ennis autistic?" is a question where the answer (whether the cause was genetic or environmental) is less important than the transformation of Ennis (the effect was the same). Whether he was autistic or not, meeting Jack transformed Ennis - love, the force of nature.
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I guess what I learned is that "was Ennis autistic?" is a question where the answer (whether the cause was genetic or environmental) is less important than the transformation of Ennis (the effect was the same). Whether he was autistic or not, meeting Jack transformed Ennis - love, the force of nature.
Beautifully expressed,as always,AndrewĄ :clap: I don't have enough medical knowledges as to determinate the degree of autism that Ennis could or not overcome;however,I tend to believe that his shyness and loneliness is more due to his difficult childhood and his uprooted youth,marked moreover for this tragic and unbearable souvenir of a violence's act.
Of course and in spite of all this,meeting Jack changed him,because-as I have already said several times-he was and had what Ennis was lacked of,and viceversa;for example,with Jack´s company,he was able to speak more than never before because he had found somebody who was ineterested in him and his problems,somebody who-far beyond any sexual or romantic interest-valued and appreciated him,somebody who could understand him because,in the end,they talked the same language;the one of love's need.
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Beautifully expressed,as always,AndrewĄ :clap: I don't have enough medical knowledges as to determinate the degree of autism that Ennis could or not overcome;however,I tend to believe that his shyness and loneliness is more due to his difficult childhood and his uprooted youth,marked moreover for this tragic and unbearable souvenir of a violence's act.
Of course and in spite of all this,meeting Jack changed him,because-as I have already said several times-he was and had what Ennis was lacked of,and viceversa;for example,with Jack´s company,he was able to speak more than never before because he had found somebody who was ineterested in him and his problems,somebody who-far beyond any sexual or romantic interest-valued and appreciated him,somebody who could understand him because,in the end,they talked the same language;the one of love's need.
Oh, I so love how you put this MPJ! <^( <^( <^(
:d:
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Possibly he had a mild form, such as Aspergers, given his difficulties with communciating, making eye contact and being win general. On the other hand, his behaviour may just have been the product of childhood neglect.
Could it also be caused by circumstances forcing Ennis to mature more quickly, at least in terms of not having what many would consider a more "normal", carefree childhood?
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Could it also be caused by circumstances forcing Ennis to mature more quickly, at least in terms of not having what many would consider a more "normal", carefree childhood?
I tend to believe that this was the root of his behaviour and,in sum,of his and their tragedy in the end...
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Could it also be caused by circumstances forcing Ennis to mature more quickly, at least in terms of not having what many would consider a more "normal", carefree childhood?
:s) There are a lots of kids forced to mature more quickly and they don't develop any kind of communication problem... anyway, the exposure to Earl's awful destiny and the cognition that he himself has the same "deadly disease" in himself could be a big part of the reason!
But, I wouldn't mix those two!
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:s) There are a lots of kids forced to mature more quickly and they don't develop any kind of communication problem... anyway, the exposure to Earl's awful destiny and the cognition that he himself has the same "deadly disease" in himself could be a big part of the reason!
But, I wouldn't mix those two!
Yes,but this situation is somehow the root of his more quick maturing;since Ennis lost his childhood from the very moment he saw Earl's dead body.
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:s) There are a lots of kids forced to mature more quickly and they don't develop any kind of communication problem... anyway, the exposure to Earl's awful destiny and the cognition that he himself has the same "deadly disease" in himself could be a big part of the reason!
But, I wouldn't mix those two!
I highly doubt Ennis had any genetic or physiological cause for autism. However, as you said, the psychological trauma from the Earl incident, not just the murder itself and the witnessing of its horrific aftermath, but the implication as you said, of Ennis thinking that his father not loving him, capable of harming him simply for being himself, raising doubt as to who he is, etc, may be so psychological traumatic that Ennis suffers the same conditions that affect those with ASD...focusing on his own emotions instead of others.
Ennis said hardly anything at all and withdrawn from people because he was forced to live life alone, physically and emotionally.
Once he met Jack, the friendship and eventually love, liberated him from his shell, and he talked more than in a year.
People suffering from autism can also occasionally be lifted from the disorder, through intense and loving therapy.
I am just saying, there is a parallel on the surface, but that does not mean Ennis is autistic. I think science does not yet understanding the human brain fully, and we are only beginning to understand the deeper relationships that drive people's motivation, behavior, and evolution.
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Lance, I agree - brain is definitely the least explored organ in human body!
And can be easily influenced in the childhood!
What I meant by - not mixing the two, was - not mixing the moment of facing the deadly parallel between Earl and him, and being forced to mature quickly coz of his parents early death. Surely, both can be traumatizing, but I believe that early maturing can not provoke the communication problems that Ennis had.
And you're right - Jack liberated him... unfortunately, not completely! At least not to the very sad end! :\'(
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Lance, I agree - brain is definitely the least explored organ in human body!
And can be easily influenced in the childhood!
What I meant by - not mixing the two, was - not mixing the moment of facing the deadly parallel between Earl and him, and being forced to mature quickly coz of his parents early death. Surely, both can be traumatizing, but I believe that early maturing can not provoke the communication problems that Ennis had.
And you're right - Jack liberated him... unfortunately, not completely! At least not to the very sad end! :\'(
I see. Interesting point. What if...Ennis was raised by his homophobic father, perhaps with a loving mother, instead of his brother and sister? Would he become homophobic, and perhaps even a gay basher, to overcompensate for his own feelings? We'll never know.
And yes, many others had childhood like his, but turn out differently.
Would the combination of a seed of self-hatred planted early in life and a lack of loving nurturing like Jack's Ma, yield the self-imposed isolation for Ennis? Perhaps, and I agree we should not mix the two. Each has its distinct impact.
I think Jack's love was enough to open up Ennis and lead him to a sweet life, eventually. The tragedy was that he only had sixteen years, and the time was snatched from him. Was it long enough? I'd like to think that by the final scene, it was enough, even though he opened to an empty bed, an empty trailer, he had to rely on his memories and his dreams. It was still better than being locked inside his own world, not even reaching out to Junior or Jack's Ma. It was not as good as with Jack, but it was enough for someone who was happy with beans.
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:s) There are a lots of kids forced to mature more quickly and they don't develop any kind of communication problem... anyway, the exposure to Earl's awful destiny and the cognition that he himself has the same "deadly disease" in himself could be a big part of the reason!
But, I wouldn't mix those two!
I do agree that the trauma over seeing the dead Earl must have contributed in some way. But is it also probable that kids who are forced to mature more quickly and without any external/internal support structure (e.g., family, mentors, active role-models, etc.) do develop a kind of reticence later in life?
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I definitely don't believe Ennis had any sort of autistic disorder. I share a lot of qualities with Ennis, and I'm not autistic in the least bit. I don't know why this society values talkative people more than quiet ones. If you are quiet, it's considered almost "abnormal" by society. Being quiet or not making eye contact much, or not joining in the group and chatting is considered by this society to be something wrong with a person. I find that very sad. The fact is that most people's talk is just empty and lacks meaning and depth. Most people talk and talk and talk but what do they really have to say? There is an old Taoist proverb that goes something like this: "Those who don't know, say, but those who know don't say." I find it to be very true in this world. A lot of people who are quiet, it doesn't mean that we don't have anything to say, or that we're not thinking. Still waters run the deepest. I myself am an introverted person, and don't often say what I'm feeling, or what I'm thinking. In certain East Asian cultures, being introverted and quiet is thought of as a higher quality than being chatty and talking all the time without really knowing what you're talking about, or saying empty meaningless things. Sometimes I've found those who are the most vocal are also the most ignorant. So I think as a culture, society needs to stop treating introvertedness as something abnormal or strange. That said, I feel I understand Ennis and that the way he is was his inward personality and self and also because of his fears and distrust of others. Also, he is a human soul on his own journey, and we all have lessons we learn all the way that help us grow spiritually. For Ennis, that lesson was to let go of all the fear and conditioning of society, and to listen to your heart and just be who you are. Only his soulmate, Jack could show him and teach him this. Ennis had a long hard road learning that lesson in this life, and in the end, he has a lot of regret for not learning it sooner, but he does achieve what he's meant to in this life.
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I do agree that the trauma over seeing the dead Earl must have contributed in some way. But is it also probable that kids who are forced to mature more quickly and without any external/internal support structure (e.g., family, mentors, active role-models, etc.) do develop a kind of reticence later in life?
I think it all depends on the person...some children mature and become very social, outgoing, reaching out to people without making close friends, the social butterfly so to speak. Personality development follow many patterns. Ennis was only one of many.
Just my two cents.
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I definitely don't believe Ennis had any sort of autistic disorder. I share a lot of qualities with Ennis, and I'm not autistic in the least bit. I don't know why this society values talkative people more than quiet ones. If you are quiet, it's considered almost "abnormal" by society. Being quiet or not making eye contact much, or not joining in the group and chatting is considered by this society to be something wrong with a person. I find that very sad. The fact is that most people's talk is just empty and lacks meaning and depth. Most people talk and talk and talk but what do they really have to say? There is an old Taoist proverb that goes something like this: "Those who don't know, say, but those who know don't say." I find it to be very true in this world. A lot of people who are quiet, it doesn't mean that we don't have anything to say, or that we're not thinking. Still waters run the deepest. I myself am an introverted person, and don't often say what I'm feeling, or what I'm thinking. In certain East Asian cultures, being introverted and quiet is thought of as a higher quality than being chatty and talking all the time without really knowing what you're talking about, or saying empty meaningless things. Sometimes I've found those who are the most vocal are also the most ignorant. So I think as a culture, society needs to stop treating introvertedness as something abnormal or strange. That said, I feel I understand Ennis and that the way he is was his inward personality and self and also because of his fears and distrust of others. Also, he is a human soul on his own journey, and we all have lessons we learn all the way that help us grow spiritually. For Ennis, that lesson was to let go of all the fear and conditioning of society, and to listen to your heart and just be who you are. Only his soulmate, Jack could show him and teach him this. Ennis had a long hard road learning that lesson in this life, and in the end, he has a lot of regret for not learning it sooner, but he does achieve what he's meant to in this life.
Well said, athena. Being Ennis-like, I also feel moments when silence and solitude can be golden. There is nothing innately wrong with it, and for the record, those suffering from autistic disorders can be very productive members of society. I hate labels like "normal" because it refers to something artificial and arbitrary. People, as you said, all have their own journeys in life, unique, and precious in each person's own way.
Having said that, I also find the process of Ennis meeting Jack, meeting a soul mate who understands, sharing in life's journey, to be the beauty that we all share here. It would be a pity, that Ennis in his chosen moments of solutude, ignore and miss the opportunities for making connections with others, with Jack.
As the saying goes in many cultures, everything in moderation. Solitude and silence can be good, but so can companionship where none is expected, and communication that flows without misunderstanding....feeling like he can paw the whites out of the moon. That can only come from two people meeting.
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Well said, athena. Being Ennis-like, I also feel moments when silence and solitude can be golden. There is nothing innately wrong with it, and for the record, those suffering from autistic disorders can be very productive members of society. I hate labels like "normal" because it refers to something artificial and arbitrary. People, as you said, all have their own journeys in life, unique, and precious in each person's own way.
Having said that, I also find the process of Ennis meeting Jack, meeting a soul mate who understands, sharing in life's journey, to be the beauty that we all share here. It would be a pity, that Ennis in his chosen moments of solutude, ignore and miss the opportunities for making connections with others, with Jack.
As the saying goes in many cultures, everything in moderation. Solitude and silence can be good, but so can companionship where none is expected, and communication that flows without misunderstanding....feeling like he can paw the whites out of the moon. That can only come from two people meeting.
Sometimes, in a person's life, there comes along someone truly special, and that is what happened to Ennis when he met Jack. Jack had that ability to bring the wall that Ennis had built around himself down. It is because Jack took the time to truly know Ennis. He was the only one who understood him, and loved him for who he was. Jack loved Ennis just the way he was, he didn't want Ennis to be something he wasn't, and he didn't want Ennis to change. He only wanted Ennis to realize the truth inside his own self. He wanted Ennis to learn that lesson his soul needed to learn in this life, and that lesson is to be true to yourself, be who you are, not what others expect you to be or want you to be. His frustrations with Ennis were only because Ennis still couldn't let go of his fear completely. Jack's immense love for Ennis never diminished. It was something pure and deep and unconditional. He only wanted Ennis to see the light, and in the end, Ennis does. Ennis opened up to Jack that first summer they met because Jack was unlike any person Ennis had ever met in this life. Jack valued him, treasured him, treated him with respect, listened to him, wanted to know him and understand him. Ennis felt for the first time in his life, accepted, and treated like an actual human being. Here was someone reaching out to him with the utmost human feeling and understanding, and that is what an introverted and quiet person like Ennis wanted. That was all Ennis needed in his life, someone to come along and cherish him, and make him their world, make him feel loved, respected, and understood. And that person arrived in his soulmate Jack. That is why Ennis talks to him, that is why Ennis comes out from behind his wall. Jack was the only person who showed such pure kindness towards Ennis. Jack had unlocked the gates to Ennis's heart, something no one else could do. Ennis had felt alienated and alone all his life, surrounded by people, but not belonging, he felt apart from everything and everyone around him. When Jack came along, Ennis for the first time in this life no longer felt so alone and isolated. In Jack's arms, and in Jack's heart, he had found his home. This is where he truly belonged. There he could be himself, he could be happy and be free, there all the expectations and restrictions and cruel judgement of an oppressive and ignorant society could be left worlds away, because none of that mattered. Jack saw Ennis in a way no one else could, and that is why Ennis felt safe coming out from him behind his wall with him, from the very beginning.
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Sometimes, in a person's life, there comes along someone truly special, and that is what happened to Ennis when he met Jack. Jack had that ability to bring the wall that Ennis had built around himself down. It is because Jack took the time to truly know Ennis. He was the only one who understood him, and loved him for who he was. Jack loved Ennis just the way he was, he didn't want Ennis to be something he wasn't, and he didn't want Ennis to change. He only wanted Ennis to realize the truth inside his own self. He wanted Ennis to learn that lesson his soul needed to learn in this life, and that lesson is to be true to yourself, be who you are, not what others expect you to be or want you to be. His frustrations with Ennis were only because Ennis still couldn't let go of his fear completely. Jack's immense love for Ennis never diminished. It was something pure and deep and unconditional. He only wanted Ennis to see the light, and in the end, Ennis does. Ennis opened up to Jack that first summer they met because Jack was unlike any person Ennis had ever met in this life. Jack valued him, treasured him, treated him with respect, listened to him, wanted to know him and understand him. Ennis felt for the first time in his life, accepted, and treated like an actual human being. Here was someone reaching out to him with the utmost human feeling and understanding, and that is what an introverted and quiet person like Ennis wanted. That was all Ennis needed in his life, someone to come along and cherish him, and make him their world, make him feel loved, respected, and understood. And that person arrived in his soulmate Jack. That is why Ennis talks to him, that is why Ennis comes out from behind his wall. Jack had unlocked the gates to Ennis's heart, something no one else could do. Ennis had felt alienated and alone all his life, surrounded by people, but not belonging, he felt apart from everything and everyone around him. When Jack came along, Ennis for the first time in this life no longer felt so alone and isolated. In Jack's arms, and in Jack's heart, he had found his home. This is where he truly belonged. There he could be himself, he could be happy and be free, there all the expectations and restrictions and cruel judgement of an oppressive and ignorant society could be left worlds away, because none of that mattered. Jack saw Ennis in a way no one else could, and that is why Ennis felt safe coming out from him behind his wall with him, from the very beginning.
Beautifully expressed, athena. :clap: ^f^
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Beautifully expressed, athena. :clap: ^f^
Thank you, lancecowboy. ^f^
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I do agree that the trauma over seeing the dead Earl must have contributed in some way. But is it also probable that kids who are forced to mature more quickly and without any external/internal support structure (e.g., family, mentors, active role-models, etc.) do develop a kind of reticence later in life?
I am not so sure about that... Earl was the trigger point for Ennis. But, only from that one event we know that Ennis's father was a merciless person, his brother was also a kind of a bully. Ennis was always suppressed and not allowed to open up - no one to open to. Only his mother, but how much could she do for him? Losing his parents was only a final strike, after his misfortune childhood. But the things were already unfavorable for him. He was already closed and introverted. So, I believe that his parents death wasn't the crucial point for his behavior in the terms of communication problems.
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I see. Interesting point. What if...Ennis was raised by his homophobic father, perhaps with a loving mother, instead of his brother and sister? Would he become homophobic, and perhaps even a gay basher, to overcompensate for his own feelings? We'll never know.
And yes, many others had childhood like his, but turn out differently.
Would the combination of a seed of self-hatred planted early in life and a lack of loving nurturing like Jack's Ma, yield the self-imposed isolation for Ennis? Perhaps, and I agree we should not mix the two. Each has its distinct impact.
I think Jack's love was enough to open up Ennis and lead him to a sweet life, eventually. The tragedy was that he only had sixteen years, and the time was snatched from him. Was it long enough? I'd like to think that by the final scene, it was enough, even though he opened to an empty bed, an empty trailer, he had to rely on his memories and his dreams. It was still better than being locked inside his own world, not even reaching out to Junior or Jack's Ma. It was not as good as with Jack, but it was enough for someone who was happy with beans.
I believe that it was less a matter of time (16 years) and more the matter of the circumstances which sorted out just in the worst moment - the moment of Jack's death.
This story left open many questions as well as our hearts. :\'(
So, we don't know if Ennis would have opened much earlier, had Jack confronted him with his trips to Mexico some years ago. Maybe if Cassie mentioned "falling in love" much earlier, he would have understand it and connected it with Jack's love. My point is that it was not about the time, but about the events which fell in the worst possible time - Ennis's realization of their feelings and Jack's death. Couldn't be worse!
Love the bold part, although it's heartbreaking.
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I definitely don't believe Ennis had any sort of autistic disorder. I share a lot of qualities with Ennis, and I'm not autistic in the least bit. I don't know why this society values talkative people more than quiet ones. If you are quiet, it's considered almost "abnormal" by society. Being quiet or not making eye contact much, or not joining in the group and chatting is considered by this society to be something wrong with a person. I find that very sad. The fact is that most people's talk is just empty and lacks meaning and depth. Most people talk and talk and talk but what do they really have to say? There is an old Taoist proverb that goes something like this: "Those who don't know, say, but those who know don't say." I find it to be very true in this world. A lot of people who are quiet, it doesn't mean that we don't have anything to say, or that we're not thinking. Still waters run the deepest. I myself am an introverted person, and don't often say what I'm feeling, or what I'm thinking. In certain East Asian cultures, being introverted and quiet is thought of as a higher quality than being chatty and talking all the time without really knowing what you're talking about, or saying empty meaningless things. Sometimes I've found those who are the most vocal are also the most ignorant. So I think as a culture, society needs to stop treating introvertedness as something abnormal or strange. That said, I feel I understand Ennis and that the way he is was his inward personality and self and also because of his fears and distrust of others. Also, he is a human soul on his own journey, and we all have lessons we learn all the way that help us grow spiritually. For Ennis, that lesson was to let go of all the fear and conditioning of society, and to listen to your heart and just be who you are. Only his soulmate, Jack could show him and teach him this. Ennis had a long hard road learning that lesson in this life, and in the end, he has a lot of regret for not learning it sooner, but he does achieve what he's meant to in this life.
Dear Athena,
I consider myself to be much more like Jack - talkative and opened person. And yes, sometimes i talk without saying much, but you have to know that it is not always about saying something deep - most of the times is to make people around you comfortable, to speak some little unimportant things to relax others who don't feel so easy about something. This would be soooooo boring and awful place to live at, if we were all the same. Differences are so interesting and necessary.
I don't see Ennis to be medically abnormal in any way, but he had problems in communication. We can not deny that.
Jack and Ennis are two different halves of the same beautiful whole! They were both sweet souls and dear men, regardless of quantity of the words they spoke. And I love them both!
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Dear Athena,
I consider myself to be much more like Jack - talkative and opened person. And yes, sometimes i talk without saying much, but you have to know that it is not always about saying something deep - most of the times is to make people around you comfortable, to speak some little unimportant things to relax others who don't feel so easy about something. This would be soooooo boring and awful place to live at, if we were all the same. Differences are so interesting and necessary.
I don't see Ennis to be medically abnormal in any way, but he had problems in communication. We can not deny that.
Jack and Ennis are two different halves of the same beautiful whole! They were both sweet souls and dear men, regardless of quantity of the words they spoke. And I love them both!
It's true that Jack being more talkative is a good thing because he could initiate conversation with Ennis. I didn't mean that I don't like people with personalities similar to Jack's. What I was talking about when I said that a lot of people in this world talk without saying much is how there are a lot of ignorant, insensitive, rude people in this world sadly who are very vocal, and also those who just talk about meaningless things to create a group and ostracize people who aren't like them. Everyone Ennis had met before Jack was like that. They went on talking, and Ennis didn't fit in. He felt lonely and isolated, and no one bothered to look deeper and reach out to Ennis and try to understand him, and treat him like a real human being. His "shyness" was because of his introvertedness and quietness, he would rather just be alone in his thoughts and feelings because no one understood him, and he didn't belong. It didn't mean that Ennis didn't have the capability of talking and expressing himself, because inside himself, he did, just like every quiet and introverted person has. All they need is someone special to bring that out in them. All he needed was someone to reach out to him with pure kindness and understanding. The first words Jack says to Ennis was because he wanted to know more about him, and for the first time in this life, it touched Ennis that someone was giving him so much reverance and so much concern. Ennis could come out from behind his wall and open up and talk and laugh and feel comfortable, and you're right that that was what Jack did when they first met. He said some words in a very kind and caring manner, and it was to set Ennis at ease, to make him comfortable and to show him that there was at least one person in this cruel world who truly cared about him, and truly wanted to know him and to love him.
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I am not so sure about that... Earl was the trigger point for Ennis. But, only from that one event we know that Ennis's father was a merciless person, his brother was also a kind of a bully. Ennis was always suppressed and not allowed to open up - no one to open to. Only his mother, but how much could she do for him? Losing his parents was only a final strike, after his misfortune childhood. But the things were already unfavorable for him. He was already closed and introverted. So, I believe that his parents death wasn't the crucial point for his behavior in the terms of communication problems.
So would things have been different if sya his brother was more protecting and affectionate? Would it have helped in alleviating his speach impediment, for example? Had he been encouraged to express himself freely and affectionately, perhaps things would have been better. I have known people who have undergone much trauma, but did not suffer in the long term because of the loving support of those around them.
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So would things have been different if sya his brother was more protecting and affectionate? Would it have helped in alleviating his speach impediment, for example? Had he been encouraged to express himself freely and affectionately, perhaps things would have been better. I have known people who have undergone much trauma, but did not suffer in the long term because of the loving support of those around them.
I agree that we can only speculate here... no real proof of anything, especially of the influence of his childhood... as we know about it so little. Yet, I believe that situation in his home was not favorable for him. He was the youngest, and probably never got the chance to step up to speak up. No one gave him any importance. That was a big part of his self confidence and the lack of it.
Losing parents is an awful thing for a child, but every child reacts different. We can not know how it affected him in particular, as he said that brother and sister treated him right. I would dare to suppose that 3 children left alone became more attached to each other and more protective about each other. Unfortunately, they didn't remain close afterward - probably all fighting to survive.
Even if Ennis had no homosexual preferences prior to seeing Earls mutilated body (and we can assume that he hadn't), the scene itself was so horrible and terrifying that any child would carve that into his mind and remember it forever. Later, being more aware of sexuality (of any kind) his fears were blocking him even more.
And of course, he could've been genetically silent person which is a base for developing even more severe communicating problems.
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Dear Athena,
I consider myself to be much more like Jack - talkative and opened person. And yes, sometimes i talk without saying much, but you have to know that it is not always about saying something deep - most of the times is to make people around you comfortable, to speak some little unimportant things to relax others who don't feel so easy about something. This would be soooooo boring and awful place to live at, if we were all the same. Differences are so interesting and necessary.
Spoke like a true Gemini! O0 Yes, it took me a long time to learn that sometimes, small talk is to simply keep the communication channel open and clear. I was much more like Ennis - reticent and serious, with little to say. But that also creates the wall of silence that keeps people away. It's probably why Ennis didn't talk much, not necessarily because he didn't want to, but because circumstances and his reticence combined to form the feedback cycle that kept him in his own shell. Jack, as you said so beautiful, was the key that opened it up and set him free.
I don't see Ennis to be medically abnormal in any way, but he had problems in communication. We can not deny that.
Jack and Ennis are two different halves of the same beautiful whole! They were both sweet souls and dear men, regardless of quantity of the words they spoke. And I love them both!
<^( <^(
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Spoke like a true Gemini! O0 Yes, it took me a long time to learn that sometimes, small talk is to simply keep the communication channel open and clear. I was much more like Ennis - reticent and serious, with little to say. But that also creates the wall of silence that keeps people away. It's probably why Ennis didn't talk much, not necessarily because he didn't want to, but because circumstances and his reticence combined to form the feedback cycle that kept him in his own shell. Jack, as you said so beautiful, was the key that opened it up and set him free.
<^( <^(
;D I guess so!
And you won't believe how silent people can be attractive for the talkative ones... :s: as if there's a hidden treasure sealed by their lips, begging to be found. I am sure that Jack felt the same about Ennis. Looking for the hidden pearl of Ennis's soul. He was so moved and excited when Ennis spoke a little more for the first time. <^( And Ennis was attracted to Jack's sweet words and acceptance.... <^(
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It's true that Jack being more talkative is a good thing because he could initiate conversation with Ennis. I didn't mean that I don't like people with personalities similar to Jack's. What I was talking about when I said that a lot of people in this world talk without saying much is how there are a lot of ignorant, insensitive, rude people in this world sadly who are very vocal, and also those who just talk about meaningless things to create a group and ostracize people who aren't like them. Everyone Ennis had met before Jack was like that. They went on talking, and Ennis didn't fit in. He felt lonely and isolated, and no one bothered to look deeper and reach out to Ennis and try to understand him, and treat him like a real human being.
I think that is the key, not the amount of words, but the quality of the communication. There can people who say little, but every word is ignorant, insensitive and rude. John Twist comes to mind. Bullying doesn't need to be verbose. A few choice words can hurt just as much. The key, as you said, is Jack being interested and open to Ennis. For once, Ennis felt he was the center of someone's attention. More than that, he felt he was respected, by someone he respects in turn.
His "shyness" was because of his introvertedness and quietness, he would rather just be alone in his thoughts and feelings because no one understood him, and he didn't belong. It didn't mean that Ennis didn't have the capability of talking and expressing himself, because inside himself, he did, just like every quiet and introverted person has. All they need is someone special to bring that out in them. All he needed was someone to reach out to him with pure kindness and understanding. The first words Jack says to Ennis was because he wanted to know more about him, and for the first time in this life, it touched Ennis that someone was giving him so much reverance and so much concern. Ennis could come out from behind his wall and open up and talk and laugh and feel comfortable, and you're right that that was what Jack did when they first met. He said some words in a very kind and caring manner, and it was to set Ennis at ease, to make him comfortable and to show him that there was at least one person in this cruel world who truly cared about him, and truly wanted to know him and to love him.
Yes, the moments of friendship and love slowly accumulated over the summer, from the initial handshake, Jack's tenderness when Ennis came upon a bear, Ennis shooting the elk and switching for Jack's sake, all point to a love built on a friendship.
I think there is more to it than just a simple friendship because Ennis was capable of having friends, like meeting Alma, and able to borrow Wroe's cabin. The friendship between Jack and Ennis was special because they had an easy rapport, a light humor that makes life fun and joyous, not burdensome and heavy...speaking to Loreen's point about small talk. They could smalltalk each other all day and not be bored because each little sentence of meaningless nonsense is an opportunity to express affection, like "Better quiet down, or you're going to scatter them sheep again." or "The tent don't look right." or ....
When it is true love, it doesn't matter if it is silence or small talk or serious discussion, the love and respect shine through.
Without love, silence or words, they both feel suppressive for the individual, either as lonely isolation, or in the case of bullies, a one-sided attempt to dominate the other into submission.
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I think that is the key, not the amount of words, but the quality of the communication. There can people who say little, but every word is ignorant, insensitive and rude. John Twist comes to mind. Bullying doesn't need to be verbose. A few choice words can hurt just as much. The key, as you said, is Jack being interested and open to Ennis. For once, Ennis felt he was the center of someone's attention. More than that, he felt he was respected, by someone he respects in turn.
Yes, the moments of friendship and love slowly accumulated over the summer, from the initial handshake, Jack's tenderness when Ennis came upon a bear, Ennis shooting the elk and switching for Jack's sake, all point to a love built on a friendship.
I think there is more to it than just a simple friendship because Ennis was capable of having friends, like meeting Alma, and able to borrow Wroe's cabin. The friendship between Jack and Ennis was special because they had an easy rapport, a light humor that makes life fun and joyous, not burdensome and heavy...speaking to Loreen's point about small talk. They could smalltalk each other all day and not be bored because each little sentence of meaningless nonsense is an opportunity to express affection, like "Better quiet down, or you're going to scatter them sheep again." or "The tent don't look right." or ....
When it is true love, it doesn't matter if it is silence or small talk or serious discussion, the love and respect shine through.
Without love, silence or words, they both feel suppressive for the individual, either as lonely isolation, or in the case of bullies, a one-sided attempt to dominate the other into submission.
Yes, that is what I meant to say. Very well spoken! It is definitely not the amount of words, it is quality, not quantity as you said. There are people who can say just a few words but they have so much meaning for a person like Ennis if those words of sincere kindness and caring and love. That is how Jack spoke to Ennis. When you know the other person truly respects, loves, and cares about you deeply, then every little conversation takes on a deeper meaning, everything is important and everything has that meaning. I understand how Ennis was uncomfortable around most people, because I'm like that myself. Ennis didn't trust people, and every word or glance from them felt threatening to him, felt hurtful. That is why he had retreated further and further behind his wall. When Jack came along, he was completely different because he treated Ennis in a way no one else ever had before. His genuine compassion and kindness for Ennis put Ennis at ease and allowed him to finally emerge from behind his wall and fall in love with Jack.
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Yes, that is what I meant to say. Very well spoken! It is definitely not the amount of words, it is quality, not quantity as you said. There are people who can say just a few words but they have so much meaning for a person like Ennis if those words of sincere kindness and caring and love. That is how Jack spoke to Ennis. When you know the other person truly respects, loves, and cares about you deeply, then every little conversation takes on a deeper meaning, everything is important and everything has that meaning. I understand how Ennis was uncomfortable around most people, because I'm like that myself. Ennis didn't trust people, and every word or glance from them felt threatening to him, felt hurtful. That is why he had retreated further and further behind his wall. When Jack came along, he was completely different because he treated Ennis in a way no one else ever had before. His genuine compassion and kindness for Ennis put Ennis at ease and allowed him to finally emerge from behind his wall and fall in love with Jack.
Yes, our own mood can color our perception. Even when something neutral and unaffected can be perceived to be either respectful and caring, or oppositely, mean and hurtful, simply depending on whether we trust or distrust the person. Jack was careful how he approached Ennis in the beginning. He made quite the first impression charging in on his truck, kicking and swearing...the macho rodeo that Ennis' daddy warned him about, but he was also kind and polite, introducing himself, shaking hands, and asked for the last name in a light humorous way that put Ennis at ease. Then the bit in the bar, feeling sympathy for Ennis when he talked about his folks...that all laid the groundwork that later led to Ennis talking by the fireside, saying more than he did in a year. I should add that Jack did all that in the beginning unintentionally, simply being himself, being sincere, but that's why their love is part of their destiny of the two souls meeting. It's something that can only be given, not found, not made with agenda or planned.
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Wow, it's been a while but just came across this thread and just had to break out of lurkdom and comment. First I do not feel that there was anything wrong with Ennis. I just think he was a product of his upbring, his environment.
I totally agree with those who say that it was Jack who was able to break through Ennis's lonely wall. I beleive Ennis was conditioned as a child of strict discipline coupled with emotional neglect. Does'nt mean that he did'nt have his own ideas, thoughts about life but he was made to feel that he could not communicate them freely. I feel the fear of judgement and rejection became ingrained in Ennis's already painfully shy, basic personality. I also feel with the isolated surroundings of Brokeback Mt and the one on one attention in the relationship with Jack, a part of him was set free once he found that he was accepted for who he truly was. With patience and persistence, Jack took the lead , showing Ennis that he did'nt need to be this totally closed up book. Jack showed him that he did'nt have to be the perfect communicator. . He could be himself wether he spoke a little or a lot and still be understood and accepted in Jack's eyes.. Showing Ennis his own imperfections,, Jack made it comforting for Ennis to let down his guard and let someone in. What Ennis could not speak, he made up for through actions. His father was a man of strong convictions and beliefs even going as far as showing his young son the body of a dead Earl to prove a point. This was not the actions of a man who valued free expression and openess . In short , Ennis was conditioned to hold back feeling or emotion and somwhere along the line Ennis lost who he truly was. In Jack , I feel he found that part of himself long missing. MHO.I think that is the key, not the amount of words, but the quality of the communication. There can people who say little, but every word is ignorant, insensitive and rude. John Twist comes to mind. Bullying doesn't need to be verbose. A few choice words can hurt just as much. The key, as you said, is Jack being interested and open to Ennis. For once, Ennis felt he was the center of someone's attention. More than that, he felt he was respected, by someone he respects in turn.
Yes, the moments of friendship and love slowly accumulated over the summer, from the initial handshake, Jack's tenderness when Ennis came upon a bear, Ennis shooting the elk and switching for Jack's sake, all point to a love built on a friendship.
I think there is more to it than just a simple friendship because Ennis was capable of having friends, like meeting Alma, and able to borrow Wroe's cabin. The friendship between Jack and Ennis was special because they had an easy rapport, a light humor that makes life fun and joyous, not burdensome and heavy...speaking to Loreen's point about small talk. They could smalltalk each other all day and not be bored because each little sentence of meaningless nonsense is an opportunity to express affection, like "Better quiet down, or you're going to scatter them sheep again." or "The tent don't look right." or ....
When it is true love, it doesn't matter if it is silence or small talk or serious discussion, the love and respect shine through.
Without love, silence or words, they both feel suppressive for the individual, either as lonely isolation, or in the case of bullies, a one-sided attempt to dominate the other into submission.
Precisley!
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Hi there aintfoolin! ^f^
Just wanted to say hello to you!
It's been a while. :^^)
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Welcome to the discussion, aintfooling.
Beautifully said, accepting others AND oneself, imperfection and all. That's the key to love.
Jack's Ma's love accepted Jack the way he was, even if he were never good enough for the old man. For her love, Jack learned self-acceptance, and acceptance of others, especially Ennis. :^^) ^f^
Thanks for the clear insight, aintfooling.
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Also, it's quite amazing how true love can transform life. Jack and Ennis had tough, ordinary, mundane lives, but meeting each other and falling in love transformed everything. Jack took Ennis's ordinary life and made it extraordinary. No matter that they were apart most of the time, and they had to live out the lives that society expected of them, knowing that each one of them had the other gave them a completely different view on life. Everything became so meaningful, so epic, so extraordinary.
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Also, it's quite amazing how true love can transform life. Jack and Ennis had tough, ordinary, mundane lives, but meeting each other and falling in love transformed everything. Jack took Ennis's ordinary life and made it extraordinary. No matter that they were apart most of the time, and they had to live out the lives that society expected of them, knowing that each one of them had the other gave them a completely different view on life. Everything became so meaningful, so epic, so extraordinary.
Indeed, Love - the force of nature, that transforms the ordinary into the extraordinary. ^f^
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I agree that we can only speculate here... no real proof of anything, especially of the influence of his childhood... as we know about it so little. Yet, I believe that situation in his home was not favorable for him. He was the youngest, and probably never got the chance to step up to speak up. No one gave him any importance. That was a big part of his self confidence and the lack of it.
Losing parents is an awful thing for a child, but every child reacts different. We can not know how it affected him in particular, as he said that brother and sister treated him right. I would dare to suppose that 3 children left alone became more attached to each other and more protective about each other. Unfortunately, they didn't remain close afterward - probably all fighting to survive.
Even if Ennis had no homosexual preferences prior to seeing Earls mutilated body (and we can assume that he hadn't), the scene itself was so horrible and terrifying that any child would carve that into his mind and remember it forever. Later, being more aware of sexuality (of any kind) his fears were blocking him even more.
And of course, he could've been genetically silent person which is a base for developing even more severe communicating problems.
Well, in connection with the Earl and Rich story, I have considered the possibility that it was especially traumatic to the 9-year-old Ennis perhaps because he recognized his own homosexual tendencies. Of course, this cannot be proven, but it can helpm explain why the episode may have had a lasting effect on him...
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Well, in connection with the Earl and Rich story, I have considered the possibility that it was especially traumatic to the 9-year-old Ennis perhaps because he recognized his own homosexual tendencies. Of course, this cannot be proven, but it can helpm explain why the episode may have had a lasting effect on him...
Since we are venturing into speculative territory, I think it's premature to suggest a nine-year-old has homosexual feelings. Granted, some precocious children, especially in urban environments and wise to sexual matters have been known to come out early, some even earlier than nine. However, I don't think Ennis had sexual feelings at that age.
What is more probable, in my opinion, is the scenario where the innocent Ennis befriended Earl and Rich, the queer old ducks, as any child would do when meeting friendly interesting neighbors. It is perhaps this innocent friendship that stirred his father into a murderous rage. Seeing a friend dying such horrific death is traumatic enough for any nine-year-old. On top of that, if his father had added admonition to Ennis that he was under no circumstance to ever associate with people like that again, Ennis would feel that it was his friendship that led to the death of a friend. It is this sense of guilt and of betrayal that traumatizes Ennis, and later when his sexuality develops, the grief transforms into homophobia, not necessarily out of his own sexual feelings but simply because he idolizes his father. Ironically, it is the depth of homophobia that often locks a young man's normal homoerotic feeling for other young men, into a permanent state of orientation. Healthy experimentation would allow the passing phase to give way to heterosexual curiosity in cases where such tendency exists. Just my 2 cents. As discussed else where, human development (sexually and personality) is so little understood by science, we can only speculate. In the specific case of Ennis where we have very limited information, we can only speculate with caveats of the wide range of uncertainty and unanswered questions. There is no definitive right or wrong answers. Only answers that feel right for one's own world view.
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Since we are venturing into speculative territory, I think it's premature to suggest a nine-year-old has homosexual feelings. Granted, some precocious children, especially in urban environments and wise to sexual matters have been known to come out early, some even earlier than nine. However, I don't think Ennis had sexual feelings at that age.
What is more probable, in my opinion, is the scenario where the innocent Ennis befriended Earl and Rich, the queer old ducks, as any child would do when meeting friendly interesting neighbors. It is perhaps this innocent friendship that stirred his father into a murderous rage. Seeing a friend dying such horrific death is traumatic enough for any nine-year-old. On top of that, if his father had added admonition to Ennis that he was under no circumstance to ever associate with people like that again, Ennis would feel that it was his friendship that led to the death of a friend. It is this sense of guilt and of betrayal that traumatizes Ennis, and later when his sexuality develops, the grief transforms into homophobia, not necessarily out of his own sexual feelings but simply because he idolizes his father. Ironically, it is the depth of homophobia that often locks a young man's normal homoerotic feeling for other young men, into a permanent state of orientation. Healthy experimentation would allow the passing phase to give way to heterosexual curiosity in cases where such tendency exists. Just my 2 cents. As discussed else where, human development (sexually and personality) is so little understood by science, we can only speculate. In the specific case of Ennis where we have very limited information, we can only speculate with caveats of the wide range of uncertainty and unanswered questions. There is no definitive right or wrong answers. Only answers that feel right for one's own world view.
If we are to believe current psychology, they say that sexual preference is fixed at a much earlier age -- no later than 5 or 6, if I recall correctly. I am not privy to the details of this subject, although I have had some discussions about this with various psychologist friends (both gay and straight).
It is not a question of a person consicously knowing his/her sexuality. It is unconscious. But that doesn't make it any less powerful or definitive, especially when it gets entangled with traumatic experiences.
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I don't know at what age psychologists think a person is conscious of one's sexual preferences;but what it's true is that any traumatic experience,more or less in rapport with sex,in an early age lets an indelible mark in this person's mind and soul.I agree in that it's unconscious this mark and the attraction that any forbidden question lets in a young mind.But I have always thought that Earl and Rich's tragedy made Ennis feel a repulsion but at the same time an attraction to what deserved so hard punishment.It's something that happens all the time with persons who has been educated in a very narrow minded and sin feared environment,for example.
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Whether it is associated with sexual identity consciously or unconsciously, is best left to stodgy academics. All I have is the look on young Ennis face in the movie to go by, and the terror inflicted speaks volume. It is the terror that is the source of homophobia. You don't need to be gay or have gay feelings to be terrorized by brutality. No matter what Ennis' sexual identity was at nine (and that is questionable) the key was that he was terrified. We can dance around and speculate all we want, but it is terror, not sexual feelings, that shaped Ennis at that moment.
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Ennis, as introverted people often do, hardly ever voiced his thoughts, feelings, and beliefs. From my own experience, I can understand that because I feel isolated and surrounded by strangers. When you don't feel a connection to family and the people around you, when you aren't like them and they don't understand you, you don't voice your thoughts and feelings because they would not be understand, and if you do, you'll just be ridiculed or shunned. I don't believe Ennis idolized his horrible father in any way or was anything like him. Ennis was a gentle soul consumed by fear and hurt. His father's inculcations of hate, rage, and violence were things that scarred and hurt very much. There are some who say that a person's orientation is already unconciously known by the age of 5 or 6, because that is when the child first experiences some sort of attraction. So Ennis as a little boy may have had attraction to other boys, of course at that age a person is too young to understand those feelings. But whatever the case, it is clear that the circumstances in which Ennis was born into and grew up in, and the people he was surrounded by, his father, his family, the community around him, it is clear that Ennis had always felt isolated and out-of-place in that life, it's clear that his gentle and kind soul did not want to harbor the ignorance and hatred of people like his father. Therefore his father treating him like he did and showing him those things just caused the shy, introverted Ennis to begin building that wall around himself that he would use for the rest of his life to protect himself from the cruelty of this world. But destiny worked its remarkable will and gave Ennis the soulmate and true love that he deserved.
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Ennis, as introverted people often do, hardly ever voiced his thoughts, feelings, and beliefs. From my own experience, I can understand that because I feel isolated and surrounded by strangers. When you don't feel a connection to family and the people around you, when you aren't like them and they don't understand you, you don't voice your thoughts and feelings because they would not be understand, and if you do, you'll just be ridiculed or shunned. I don't believe Ennis idolized his horrible father in any way or was anything like him. Ennis was a gentle soul consumed by fear and hurt. His father's inculcations of hate, rage, and violence were things that scarred and hurt very much. There are some who say that a person's orientation is already unconciously known by the age of 5 or 6, because that is when the child first experiences some sort of attraction. So Ennis as a little boy may have had attraction to other boys, of course at that age a person is too young to understand those feelings. But whatever the case, it is clear that the circumstances in which Ennis was born into and grew up in, and the people he was surrounded by, his father, his family, the community around him, it is clear that Ennis had always felt isolated and out-of-place in that life, it's clear that his gentle and kind soul did not want to harbor the ignorance and hatred of people like his father. Therefore his father treating him like he did and showing him those things just caused the shy, introverted Ennis to begin building that wall around himself that he would use for the rest of his life to protect himself from the cruelty of this world. But destiny worked its remarkable will and gave Ennis the soulmate and true love that he deserved.
I agree with the red part 100%. As for people's orientation etc being set by the age of 5 and 6, etc, I am not convinced of the theory. In my opinion, there is insufficient understanding of the human brain, its development, and the diversity and complexity of the sexual orientation processes to definitive make any assertions beyond speculative theorizing. I am not against it, just pointing out the limitations so we don't err on the side of taking something as authoritative when it is not. Skepticism in this case is a good thing. It keeps scientists honest, and not assume that they have the definitive answer when they don't.
As for Ennis not idolizing his father, I must disagree. I bet most little boys try to emulate their father, idolize their father, and even when they are abused and treated badly by their father, still yearns for their approval and affections. Jack, for example, even when abused so badly by John Twist, still hope to one day have his old man's approval, to have him attend one of his rodeos, or share something with him. It's natural for little boys to look up to, and idolize their fathers.
As for Ennis' sexual orientation at the age of nine (and earlier according to your theory) is pure speculation. I admit SOME little boys have their orientation established at an early age, but human beings are far too complex and diverse to generalize from SOME to ALL, without extensive data to eliminate ALL possible counter examples. An absence of counter examples, given the limited state of our knowledge, does not mean that they don't exist. This is off topic, but it would be interesting to start a topic to discuss the relevant criteria to determine "little boys sexual orientation at a young age, consciously or UNCONSCIOUSLY". That's a tall order even for a Ph.D thesis.
Just my two cents worth.
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I agree with the red part 100%. As for people's orientation etc being set by the age of 5 and 6, etc, I am not convinced of the theory. In my opinion, there is insufficient understanding of the human brain, its development, and the diversity and complexity of the sexual orientation processes to definitive make any assertions beyond speculative theorizing. I am not against it, just pointing out the limitations so we don't err on the side of taking something as authoritative when it is not. Skepticism in this case is a good thing. It keeps scientists honest, and not assume that they have the definitive answer when they don't.
As for Ennis not idolizing his father, I must disagree. I bet most little boys try to emulate their father, idolize their father, and even when they are abused and treated badly by their father, still yearns for their approval and affections. Jack, for example, even when abused so badly by John Twist, still hope to one day have his old man's approval, to have him attend one of his rodeos, or share something with him. It's natural for little boys to look up to, and idolize their fathers.
As for Ennis' sexual orientation at the age of nine (and earlier according to your theory) is pure speculation. I admit SOME little boys have their orientation established at an early age, but human beings are far too complex and diverse to generalize from SOME to ALL, without extensive data to eliminate ALL possible counter examples. An absence of counter examples, given the limited state of our knowledge, does not mean that they don't exist. This is off topic, but it would be interesting to start a topic to discuss the relevant criteria to determine "little boys sexual orientation at a young age, consciously or UNCONSCIOUSLY". That's a tall order even for a Ph.D thesis.
Just my two cents worth.
Just to point out, that is not my theory, that is just something I encountered in a psychology class I took. I didn't mean to say Ennis felt that way or this way at that very young age. That is only speculation. As for the other part, I don't know what feelings Ennis had at age nine. But I see what you are saying about him yearning for his fathers affections and attention when he was a child. It is normal for young children, both boys and girls to want to please their parents at that age, even though their parents may be cruel. So it's fair to say that nine year old Ennis wanted his father to like him. But different people change as they get older, and I believe by the time his father died, he no longer cared about his father. The way he talks about him when he tells Jack the story of Earl and Rich is one of resentment. I believe as Ennis grew up, his eyes opened up more and more to this cruel world he was thrown into, and that's why he built that wall to protect himself, like I said. There is no way that Ennis was capable of the hate and violence his father was capable of. The story of Earl and Rich terrified and saddened him deeply. I could never ever imagine Ennis torturing and or killing anyone. He's a very gentle soul. And gentle souls often build that exterior iron gate around themselves.
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Just to point out, that is not my theory, that is just something I encountered in a psychology class I took. I didn't mean to say Ennis felt that way or this way at that very young age. That is only speculation.
No worries, athena. I wasn't putting words in your mouth. I was only saying sometimes we put too much faith and trust in people who are supposedly professionals, when in fact all they have are theories. When they present their theories as fact, without caveat, we would be foolish to take them too seriously. I try to stay away from speculations most of the time.
As for the other part, I don't know what feelings Ennis had at age nine. But I see what you are saying about him yearning for his fathers affections and attention when he was a child. It is normal for young children, both boys and girls to want to please their parents at that age, even though their parents may be cruel. So it's fair to say that nine year old Ennis wanted his father to like him. But different people change as they get older, and I believe by the time his father died, he no longer cared about his father. The way he talks about him when he tells Jack the story of Earl and Rich is one of resentment. I believe as Ennis grew up, his eyes opened up more and more to this cruel world he was thrown into, and that's why he built that wall to protect himself, like I said. There is no way that Ennis was capable of the hate and violence his father was capable of. The story of Earl and Rich terrified and saddened him deeply. I could never ever imagine Ennis torturing and or killing anyone. He's a very gentle soul. And gentle souls often build that exterior iron gate around themselves.
I agree with the bold part 100%. I think we need to separate the two time periods, Ennis as a nine-year-old after witnessing the murder, and Ennis as a nineteen-year-old when he met Jack, and then the twenty-something at the reunion when he retold the story. As you said, people evolve over time.
As a child, Ennis had no way of judging his father as cruel and filled with hatred. He simply accepted whatever was done, and was terrified.
As a teenager, he knew by that time that what his father did was cruel and fundamentally wrong, but he also internalized the homophobia because that's what society at that time was for him. He didn't like that part of his father, and would never emulate that part of him, but because society condoned homophobia, his father was still "acceptable" as his idol. The way he talked to Jack about his father showed that, in my opinion, there was a mixture of resentment and admiration, as most sons feel for their fathers. The older we get, the more clearly we see our parents as human beings with faults and all. In this case, Ennis learned to follow his father as a cowboy/ranch hand, but resented his cruelty. But without Jack, Ennis would never consciously disobey social customs. He was one who follow rules. Once he met Jack on the mountain that summer of '63, he looked at authority figures with new eyes, as can be seen in the subtle interactions between Ennis and Joe Aquierre. In the trailer, he was all respectful and subdued, while Jack was standing tall. After they came down the mountain, Ennis was strutting as much as Jack, spitting and turning his back on the man who thought 'em ranch hands were all no good.
As the twenty-something married man with children, I think Ennis understood the role of fatherhood better, and was more than willing to knock the old man off the pedestal. Like he said in the hotel, the old man would probably come in with the tire iron, but I'd like to think that Ennis at that point would be ready to defend himself, and stand up to the old man, no matter what.
Jack was the soul mate that helped Ennis find liberation.
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Just to point out, that is not my theory, that is just something I encountered in a psychology class I took. I didn't mean to say Ennis felt that way or this way at that very young age. That is only speculation. As for the other part, I don't know what feelings Ennis had at age nine. But I see what you are saying about him yearning for his fathers affections and attention when he was a child. It is normal for young children, both boys and girls to want to please their parents at that age, even though their parents may be cruel. So it's fair to say that nine year old Ennis wanted his father to like him. But different people change as they get older, and I believe by the time his father died, he no longer cared about his father. The way he talks about him when he tells Jack the story of Earl and Rich is one of resentment. I believe as Ennis grew up, his eyes opened up more and more to this cruel world he was thrown into, and that's why he built that wall to protect himself, like I said. There is no way that Ennis was capable of the hate and violence his father was capable of. The story of Earl and Rich terrified and saddened him deeply. I could never ever imagine Ennis torturing and or killing anyone. He's a very gentle soul. And gentle souls often build that exterior iron gate around themselves.
It's true that the nine year old Ennis was completely terrified at what his father showed him, but at that point he couldn't fully comprehend what his father had done. As Ennis grew up, there is no doubt that he realized what his father had done was completely horrible and wrong and he looked upon it with disgust as well as fear. The childhood admiration was gone. I believe when he first meets Jack and begins to have those strong and deep feelings for him, the story of Earl and Rich is in the back of his mindhaunting him. He realizes that he is doing what Earl and Rich did, and he knows what horrible things people would do to him if the knew. The way he tells the story to Jack, is in a way of abhoration and disgust. By this time he realizes that he and Jack are like Earl and Rich, and he fears the same thing could happen to them. Jack realizes how hurt Ennis and afraid Ennis is and that is why he gently asks if Ennis saw this, to which Ennis replies that his father made sure to show him and his brother. While Jack all those years was frustrated that Ennis wouldn't listen to his heart and come live with him, he understood why Ennis was afraid. The way he reaches out gently and comforts Ennis by stroking his cheek shows the deep concern and understanding he has. When Ennis tells Jack that his father would kill them both if he were there, he fully realizes the parallel between him and Jack and Earl and Rich. I'm glad Ennis's father was dead because it's horrible to think what he would have done had he known about Ennis and Jack. I don't know if Ennis would have defended himself, but like you, I'd like to think he would have stood up and done so.
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"s;" Looks to me, athena, we are on the same wavelength.
Thanks for sharing your insight into Jack. :^^) ^f^ I've always had difficulty seeing Jack clearing, perhaps because I am so drawn to Ennis. ::)
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"s;" Looks to me, athena, we are on the same wavelength.
Thanks for sharing your insight into Jack. :^^) ^f^ I've always had difficulty seeing Jack clearing, perhaps because I am so drawn to Ennis. ::)
Thanks. :c)
That scene with Jack stroking Ennis's cheek speaks so much. From the first time I saw the movie, I noticed how touching that scene is. He reaches out and comforts Ennis, and his voice is one of such love and understanding and concern for Ennis, because he understands how hurt Ennis is. Jack knew and understood. Of course he was willing to fight for love, and not care about what people think and society's ignorance and hate, but he also understood why Ennis was so afraid, and Jack's response to that was always to comfort Ennis and to hold him in his arms as well as his heart.
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Thanks. :c)
That scene with Jack stroking Ennis's cheek speaks so much. From the first time I saw the movie, I noticed how touching that scene is. He reaches out and comforts Ennis, and his voice is one of such love and understanding and concern for Ennis, because he understands how hurt Ennis is. Jack knew and understood. Of course he was willing to fight for love, and not care about what people think and society's ignorance and hate, but he also understood why Ennis was so afraid, and Jack's response to that was always to comfort Ennis and to hold him in his arms as well as his heart.
Again,beautifully put,AthenaĄ :clap: ^f^ Yes,Jack was a fighter,but he knew always how and when "stop" in his wishes and understand how terrified Ennis was.This is called "LOVE" in capital letters.
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I don't know at what age psychologists think a person is conscious of one's sexual preferences;but what it's true is that any traumatic experience,more or less in rapport with sex,in an early age lets an indelible mark in this person's mind and soul.I agree in that it's unconscious this mark and the attraction that any forbidden question lets in a young mind.But I have always thought that Earl and Rich's tragedy made Ennis feel a repulsion but at the same time an attraction to what deserved so hard punishment.It's something that happens all the time with persons who has been educated in a very narrow minded and sin feared environment,for example.
I think so too. I feel that it was a mixture of horror, revulsion, and "attraction" as you call it. Perhaps some form of identification was made unconsciously, at this stage?
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Whether it is associated with sexual identity consciously or unconsciously, is best left to stodgy academics. All I have is the look on young Ennis face in the movie to go by, and the terror inflicted speaks volume. It is the terror that is the source of homophobia. You don't need to be gay or have gay feelings to be terrorized by brutality. No matter what Ennis' sexual identity was at nine (and that is questionable) the key was that he was terrified. We can dance around and speculate all we want, but it is terror, not sexual feelings, that shaped Ennis at that moment.
But do you think that there was some form of "identification" at work here? I do. But I am sure that this feeling is not shared by many.
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I don't know at what age psychologists think a person is conscious of one's sexual preferences;but what it's true is that any traumatic experience,more or less in rapport with sex,in an early age lets an indelible mark in this person's mind and soul.I agree in that it's unconscious this mark and the attraction that any forbidden question lets in a young mind.But I have always thought that Earl and Rich's tragedy made Ennis feel a repulsion but at the same time an attraction to what deserved so hard punishment.It's something that happens all the time with persons who has been educated in a very narrow minded and sin feared environment,for example.
I think so too. I feel that it was a mixture of horror, revulsion, and "attraction" as you call it. Perhaps some form of identification was made unconsciously, at this stage?
No, I don't think there was an identification in your sense of sexual orientation.
I think, and agree with mpj, that the traumatic incident imprinted the homophobia onto Ennis so much that, even if he wasn't attracted to men in the beginning, the obsession with it afterward, to avoid being seen as a sissy, as queer, twisted his development to the point where it is entirely possible that he became more sensitive to attraction to men as a result, speaking hypothetically and speculatively.
It has been observed that men who are the most vocal and boisterous in their homophobia are also the ones who often have latent homosexual tendencies (whatever that means). It is this obsession with homosexuals that is often the problem, not the gay feelings themselves, which are normal in adolescent development. Many straight men experience them, but never return to them in later life. It is the preoccupation with having/not having them which often create a kind of mental trap, when the desire to NOT think about something result in thinking about it ALL the time.
Love and hate, attraction and repulsion, to think and not to think, the ying and yang of life, are all separated by a fine line. Ennis was trapped by the trauma in his homophobia. Did homophobia lead to his susceptibility to Jack? Could he have loved Jack without the prelude of friendship on Brokeback Mountain? Who knows? Personally, it doesn't matter. What matters, to me, is how he responds to the love when it presents itself. The trap, which may have led him to Jack, was also what kept him from the love of his love.
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No, I don't think there was an identification in your sense of sexual orientation.
I think, and agree with mpj, that the traumatic incident imprinted the homophobia onto Ennis so much that, even if he wasn't attracted to men in the beginning, the obsession with it afterward, to avoid being seen as a sissy, as queer, twisted his development to the point where it is entirely possible that he became more sensitive to attraction to men as a result, speaking hypothetically and speculatively.
It has been observed that men who are the most vocal and boisterous in their homophobia are also the ones who often have latent homosexual tendencies (whatever that means). It is this obsession with homosexuals that is often the problem, not the gay feelings themselves, which are normal in adolescent development. Many straight men experience them, but never return to them in later life. It is the preoccupation with having/not having them which often create a kind of mental trap, when the desire to NOT think about something result in thinking about it ALL the time.
Love and hate, attraction and repulsion, to think and not to think, the ying and yang of life, are all separated by a fine line. Ennis was trapped by the trauma in his homophobia. Did homophobia lead to his susceptibility to Jack? Could he have loved Jack without the prelude of friendship on Brokeback Mountain? Who knows? Personally, it doesn't matter. What matters, to me, is how he responds to the love when it presents itself. The trap, which may have led him to Jack, was also what kept him from the love of his love.
Interesting POV, especially the last section.
If I read you correctly, it is not a question of autism or a manifestation of physiological defects. Rather, it has more to do with an inherent conflict from within. And the traumatic incident only served to highten the internal conflict, perhaps to the point of an obsession.
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Interesting POV, especially the last section.
If I read you correctly, it is not a question of autism or a manifestation of physiological defects. Rather, it has more to do with an inherent conflict from within. And the traumatic incident only served to highten the internal conflict, perhaps to the point of an obsession.
Nope. My point is that even if there were NO internal conflict, NO sexual attraction, the traumatic incident and heightened homophobia from his father's upbringing could lead to an obsession that sensitized Ennis to all things queer, leading to his becoming Jacksexual. My point is that we do not know nor understand the sexual development process to predict in all cases the why and how of people's sexual orientation. We can say, from limited case studies, the statistical probability of the general picture, but there is insufficient knowledge to say with certainty anything about an individual. It is similar to statistical mechanics when understanding the behavior of gas molecules. We can predict the behavior of a large collection of molecules because their behavior is averaged over a large sample, a stereotype if you will. However, individually, we cannot predict the behavior of an individual molecule because we cannot, even with the most sensitive equipment, have complete knowledge of a single molecule. Without accurate knowledge, we cannot predict its behavior.
We do not have sufficient knowledge about Ennis, and we never will, even if Ennis were alive and well and available for an interview, because even Ennis did not know nor understand himself completely. The beauty of their love is that Jack helped Ennis discover himself, the part of himself he never knew.
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We do not have sufficient knowledge about Ennis, and we never will, even if Ennis were alive and well and available for an interview, because even Ennis did not know nor understand himself completely. The beauty of their love is that Jack helped Ennis discover himself, the part of himself he never knew.
I have had to remark these phrases because,letting aside their beauty,they seem a great truth to me...And coming back to the thread itself,I agree that the internal problem came from this traumatic experience and that this situation made him have a contradictory feeling about the "reasons" why this kind of persons could be killed.As you,Lance,has said,leading him to a kind of obsession with homosexuality,to condemn it-as he had been taught to do-,but also to become kind of curious about these reasons I talked about before.
It's true that persons who have been educated in a very severe environment-for example,in a rigid religious school sometimes-develop an obsession with sex,ordinarily to reject and condamn it;but very often too,to be(as I say and excuse me for the expression...),"the most whore among the whores" when they realise by themselves this is something natural and by no means as "demoniac" as they have been taught.-Of course,when I'm talking about "whores" I'm not talking in the complet sense of the word,but meaning that they become ordinarily most open-minded and free behaved than somebody who hasn't had a so strict education,so,please,that nobody gets hurt... #) ).It's to say,it becomes an effect rather different to the one the represor had wanted to get:could have it been Ennis case?.I'm rather sure it was...
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No worries, mpj. There is also a common English expression, about being a preacher's daughter or something like that. It comes from a similar rebellion against a rigid upbringing. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. This may apply to psychological forces, too. I am not sure how equal and how opposite apply in psychological space, but the intensity of homophobia certainly translates to an intensity in sexual expression. Even Jack was occasionally surprised at how passionate Ennis behaved, i.e. the reunion kiss, FNIT, and in a spiritual and internal way, SNIT. All the bottled up emotions create an intensity that is very different for someone who was, say, brought up in a liberal and permissive environment.
Yes, I like that part of what I wrote, too.
even Ennis did not know nor understand himself completely.
The beauty of their love is that Jack helped Ennis discover himself, the part of himself he never knew.
Not to be overly modest ::) :P I am happy to find you feel the same way. :^^) ^f^
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Nope. My point is that even if there were NO internal conflict, NO sexual attraction, the traumatic incident and heightened homophobia from his father's upbringing could lead to an obsession that sensitized Ennis to all things queer, leading to his becoming Jacksexual. My point is that we do not know nor understand the sexual development process to predict in all cases the why and how of people's sexual orientation. We can say, from limited case studies, the statistical probability of the general picture, but there is insufficient knowledge to say with certainty anything about an individual. It is similar to statistical mechanics when understanding the behavior of gas molecules. We can predict the behavior of a large collection of molecules because their behavior is averaged over a large sample, a stereotype if you will. However, individually, we cannot predict the behavior of an individual molecule because we cannot, even with the most sensitive equipment, have complete knowledge of a single molecule. Without accurate knowledge, we cannot predict its behavior.
We do not have sufficient knowledge about Ennis, and we never will, even if Ennis were alive and well and available for an interview, because even Ennis did not know nor understand himself completely. The beauty of their love is that Jack helped Ennis discover himself, the part of himself he never knew.
But I would think that such a conflicted reaction WOULD point to some internal conflict (or perhaps even latent attraction). A conflicted reaction points to a conflicted state, by definition. As I have noted before, many people in real life have undergone even worse trauma (e.g., having been physcially/emotionally harmed at an early age) and have shown a less conflicted nature than Ennis. And we should note that people at an early age are surprisingly resilient.
My point is that we often react to traumatic events according to internal as much as external stuimuli. We might not know much about Ennis, but we know enough about human nature itself to make reasonably good guesses in terms of a relationship between the internal state of body/mind and external events.
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But I would think that such a conflicted reaction WOULD point to some internal conflict (or perhaps even latent attraction). A conflicted reaction points to a conflicted state, by definition. As I have noted before, many people in real life have undergone even worse trauma (e.g., having been physcially/emotionally harmed at an early age) and have shown a less conflicted nature than Ennis. And we should note that people at an early age are surprisingly resilient.
My point is that we often react to traumatic events according to internal as much as external stuimuli. We might not know much about Ennis, but we know enough about human nature itself to make reasonably good guesses in terms of a relationship between the internal state of body/mind and external events.
Thomas, are you referring to the conflicted nature of the twenty-something Ennis, or the nine-year-old Ennis before witnessing the traumatic event. With this on-going discussion, it appears the time line of your reference is a bit blurred.
I was referring to the nine-year-old before the event, and as far as I could tell, most children do not come into the world with inherent conflicted nature. I grant you that you can hypothesize a precocious Ennis already discovered sex behind the barn and therefore with internal conflicts, but that IS an assumption, which is my point that we cannot safely making those assumptions as if they are facts. You can make them, as a personal choice. I choose not to because I believe the story is meant to be interpreted with an innocent Ennis that was traumatized by the violence of his father's actions.
It's not necessary to always make it a gay issue. My point is that even without the connection, i.e. homophobia, the violence is sufficient to create some kind of trauma that is lasting in Ennis. Because the violence is directed against a gay man, in Ennis' mind, the fear for the violence became a life-long homophobia. If the violence was against some other minority, the fear for the violence would become another form of prejudice. That is why I don't subscribe to your interpretation that the nine-year-old Ennis already had sexual feelings. It is not necessary, and in my opinion, unlikely. It appears to be an interpretation that is only needed to make Ennis gay, rather than to understand the significance of that moment in his life.
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No, I don't think he was autistic; just a very quiet, shy guy who probably didn't have any social skills to speak of .
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Thomas, are you referring to the conflicted nature of the twenty-something Ennis, or the nine-year-old Ennis before witnessing the traumatic event. With this on-going discussion, it appears the time line of your reference is a bit blurred.
I was referring to the nine-year-old before the event, and as far as I could tell, most children do not come into the world with inherent conflicted nature. I grant you that you can hypothesize a precocious Ennis already discovered sex behind the barn and therefore with internal conflicts, but that IS an assumption, which is my point that we cannot safely making those assumptions as if they are facts. You can make them, as a personal choice. I choose not to because I believe the story is meant to be interpreted with an innocent Ennis that was traumatized by the violence of his father's actions.
It's not necessary to always make it a gay issue. My point is that even without the connection, i.e. homophobia, the violence is sufficient to create some kind of trauma that is lasting in Ennis. Because the violence is directed against a gay man, in Ennis' mind, the fear for the violence became a life-long homophobia. If the violence was against some other minority, the fear for the violence would become another form of prejudice. That is why I don't subscribe to your interpretation that the nine-year-old Ennis already had sexual feelings. It is not necessary, and in my opinion, unlikely. It appears to be an interpretation that is only needed to make Ennis gay, rather than to understand the significance of that moment in his life.
Well, I guess I look at children in a more complicated light, and yes, I tend to think that conflicted natures in adults are rooted in a conflicted nature developed in childhood.
I think you assume too much: that this issue that I bring up is a gay issue. It is not, and it holds true for any number of circumstances.
But sexuality IS something that is developed in childhood, and yes, sexual feelings and problems don't have to be conscious. This is true, whether one is gay or straight.
The question then is not whether or not this is true -- it is safe to say that it is. The question is whether such conflicts manifest themselves physiologically -- which is in keeping with the original topic at hand.
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Well, I guess I look at children in a more complicated light, and yes, I tend to think that conflicted natures in adults are rooted in a conflicted nature developed in childhood.
If it is developed in childhood, then it means at some point it was NOT there, i.e. Ennis at say, nine before witnessing the death scene. So you support my point that the conflicted nature of Ennis' subsequent homophobia does not necessarily have anything to do with any sexual feelings conscious or other wise, that the violent event itself was the source of the conflicted nature.
I think you assume too much: that this issue that I bring up is a gay issue. It is not, and it holds true for any number of circumstances.
I did not assume anything. You stated earlier specifically that sexual orientation and identity are defined by the an early age.
But sexuality IS something that is developed in childhood, and yes, sexual feelings and problems don't have to be conscious. This is true, whether one is gay or straight.
The question then is not whether or not this is true -- IT IS. The question is whether such conflicts manifest themselves physiologically -- which is in keeping with the original topic at hand.
As I said, you made this point to tie the trauma to the orientation, and my point is that it is equally plausible that the orientation is subsequent to the trauma. It is not definitive one way or the other because there is insufficient information, in my opinion. You are of an apparently different opinion, and as we said in the "Was Ennis Gay?" thread we can agree to disagree. But this thread is about "Was Ennis Autistic?"
And to return to the topic, I read recently that there is a theory that autism is not necessarily a genetic or pathological disorder, but rather, a systemic disorder due to different or a combination of different disorders manifesting neurologically. So the question is whether the psychological trauma can create psychosomatic disorders which combine to manifest in autistic spectrum disorder. I recognize that it is a long sequence of suppositions and the answer is most likely in the negative, which would be in keeping in the emerging consensus that Ennis was not autistic but simply shy and quiet.
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I don't know at what age psychologists think a person is conscious of one's sexual preferences;but what it's true is that any traumatic experience,more or less in rapport with sex,in an early age lets an indelible mark in this person's mind and soul.I agree in that it's unconscious this mark and the attraction that any forbidden question lets in a young mind.But I have always thought that Earl and Rich's tragedy made Ennis feel a repulsion but at the same time an attraction to what deserved so hard punishment.It's something that happens all the time with persons who has been educated in a very narrow minded and sin feared environment,for example.
From a psychological as well as physiological standpoint, I think we become conscious of our sexual preferences around puberty. At the age of nine, it is likely Ennis would not yet have been aware of his sexual orientation. A few years later, upon maturing sexually, he would have come to realize to his horror that he had the same sexual urges as those "queers" he had been trained to hate. As a result he withdrew completely into himself, loathing what he had become.
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From a psychological as well as physiological standpoint, I think we become conscious of our sexual preferences around puberty. At the age of nine, it is likely Ennis would not yet have been aware of his sexual orientation. A few years later, upon maturing sexually, he would have come to realize to his horror that he had the same sexual urges as those "queers" he had been trained to hate. As a result he withdrew completely into himself, loathing what he had become.
That's the story of many gay men, in the past. The self-loathing manifests itself in many different ways, depending on the individual. As you said, in the case of Ennis, without any loving support from ANY one in his life, his only option was really to hide, as deeply in his already erected shell as he could. Unfortunately, as with many other gay men in the past, the depth of his hiding eventually drowned him in his own homophobia. Even the loving lifeline from Jack wasn't enough to pull him to safety, and a sweet life, until too late. :(
Gosh, I don't want to get back into that PBS space just now. But the story of Ennis and Jack is always there. :ghug: :\'(
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That's the story of many gay men, in the past. The self-loathing manifests itself in many different ways, depending on the individual. As you said, in the case of Ennis, without any loving support from ANY one in his life, his only option was really to hide, as deeply in his already erected shell as he could. Unfortunately, as with many other gay men in the past, the depth of his hiding eventually drowned him in his own homophobia. Even the loving lifeline from Jack wasn't enough to pull him to safety, and a sweet life, until too late. :(
Gosh, I don't want to get back into that PBS space just now. But the story of Ennis and Jack is always there. :ghug: :\'(
His feelings of lonliness and being out of place, not belonging, not being understood just caused him to retreat further back inside the walls he'd built to shield himself from the cruel world in which he'd been thrown. Jack was the only one in his life who treated him like a human being and with genuine kindness, understanding and loving him for who he is. Unfortunately, like you said, the fear and restriction was too much and still deprived him of having the complete life he deserved, of being free and happy. He could only be free and happy in glimpses. And another thing I've wanted to add is that while it is debatable exactly at what age attractions/orientation become known, it is clear that it is not a concious choice the person makes.
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His feelings of lonliness and being out of place, not belonging, not being understood just caused him to retreat further back inside the walls he'd built to shield himself from the cruel world in which he'd been thrown. Jack was the only one in his life who treated him like a human being and with genuine kindness, understanding and loving him for who he is.
I am not sure if that is why Ennis was the lonesome cowboy that he was. I guess what you say contributed to his reticent and quiet life in the beginning, but in the rural west, people also respect personal choices, and would not presume to invade his privacy, his personal space, like LaShawna would surely do. Even Cassie's approaching him in the bar, would be considered very forward. Once Ennis adopted his lonesome cowboy persona after his couple years of high school, after the transmission on the truck broke, I think the "leaving him alone" attitude contributed to his shyness. In other words, I doubt that it was an active avoidance of the world, but rather a passive let the world be and let him be kind of non-communication. I don't think Ennis would be rude and refuse to talk to anyone. He was just the stoic cowboy.
What made Jack special to Ennis was his carefree attitude, and ability to draw him out, not invading his space, and willingness to listen, in addition to what you said, his respect for Ennis as equal and a human being, even though theoretically, being a little older and with a year of seniority, he could have bossed Ennis around, or dominated Ennis in conversation or whatever. Being treated respectfully and as an equal made Jack very attractive in the eyes of Ennis, to the effect of him devoting his life to Jack.
Unfortunately, like you said, the fear and restriction was too much and still deprived him of having the complete life he deserved, of being free and happy. He could only be free and happy in glimpses.
Yes, the homophobia instilled by his father at the age of nine, build the initial walls that isolated him from a happy life. And even with his lucky meeting with Jack, he was unable to overcome it.
And another thing I've wanted to add is that while it is debatable exactly at what age attractions/orientation become known, it is clear that it is not a concious choice the person makes.
As I said, there is insufficient information to make a determination, and any proposition is mere speculation. I have no trouble with other people making the choice to believe that Ennis was gay from birth. I personally choose to follow what Annie Proulx said, that they were two cowboys of indeterminate sexual orientation going up that mountain one summer, and came away in love with each other.
Without getting too off topic, since this discussion really belongs in the "Was Ennis Gay?" thread, and we are essentially re-stating what has already been gone over thoroughly there - if a person is not conscious of his sexual orientation, then is he gay or straight or bi? If a person can be attracted to men AND women, is he closeted gay, bi, or straight with a gay tendency? If a person is only unconsciously attracted to men, but does not do anything to pursue that attraction, and yet live happily with his woman, is he gay, bi, or straight?
These labels are fundamentally insufficient to describe the complexity of human sexuality and to force anyone to fit any one of these labels at a moment in time is to miss the bigger picture. Labels are made men, not men for labels.
To force a person to fit a particular label, in my opinion, is not only counter productive, it borders on prejudice.
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You are right about the fact that Ennis isn't rude, he would talk to someone that talked to him. But he didn't feel a connection to the people around him. He felt isolated, like an island, just like his name means. Lonely and not understood, surrounded by people that aren't like him, he felt detached and on the outside, destined to be alone in this life till he met Jack. For the first time in his life, he felt connected to a person, and he felt understood, cared about, and genuinely loved. I think you say it very well when you say how Jack treated Ennis. It touched Ennis's gentle soul, that needed to be loved and respected and valued, that's why only Jack could ever know the real Ennis and only Jack could bring him out. Also, I'm against labels as well, whatever type they may be. It's sad that most people in this world base their identity on and define themselves by all these meaningless and artificial boxes society draws. All those things, like the gender of a person, the color of their skin, their orientation, their nationality, ethnicity, cultural or religious background they're born into, socioeconomic status, etc, etc, all those things are not who a person is, those are just the particular circumstances of one particular life in one particular world. The soul is who a person is, the unchanging and permanence of the human soul, and that is how Jack and Ennis love each other, as two human souls, that is true love. I was just saying that the attraction part isn't really a concious choice that someone is making. Society wouldn't let Ennis and Jack be together because for it their attraction, their love was not "normal", they could be killed for it because it was what society thought a perverse choice, a "sin". A man and a woman being together even though they don't love each other was perfectly okay with society, but two people who are soulmates and truly deeply love each other was frowned upon simply because it went against the oppressive rules, simply because it was two men in this case. That's the whole piint of this beautiful story, and that's why it's so sad.
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Ennis was not autistic. I think he was an introverted man who suffered with relationships. It's no wonder since he suffered trauma after seeing a dead body at the age of 9. How can a child process something like that? (let alone even a adult, unless you are a person who works around dead bodies like a coroner)
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I don't think he was austistic either.
Ennis clearly cherished three things. His girls, his horses and Jack Twist. In them he found peace, love, and patience and understanding. Regardless of what Ennis felt as a child and the vicious traumas he suffered, in the end, this quiet, shy cowboy showed what he was really made of He was defending the relationship he had with Jack twice, in Alma's kitchen at thanksgiving and defended it again by going to LF after Jack's death to retreive the ashes so that it could be as Jack wanted, coming face to face with hatred of the relationship in the form of Jack's father, he did'nt know what he'd encounter when he got there, yet he came.
No, he was not the best communicator with words but his possessiveness and the fierce jeaulosy he showed more than made up for for what he could not say verbally about the way he felt about Jack. I think he embraced the lonesome cowboy persona because there's where he felt most comfortable, most safe, because he held much hidden within, many secrets he felt he could not let be known. Jack was the only one who could know how deeply personal the story of Earl and Rich , how much it meant to Ennis to tell it. Why he needed to tell it. He knew Jack could be trusted to easily read this complicated man. He hoped Jack would now know How he was hurt and Why it was so hard for Ennis to let go of his pain. I believe he connected Jack's fate with Earl's, in the end, his fears demanded it be true. MO
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I don't think he was austistic either.
Yes, that appears to be the consensus.
Ennis clearly cherished three things. His girls, his horses and Jack Twist. In them he found peace, love, and patience and understanding. Regardless of what Ennis felt as a child and the vicious traumas he suffered, in the end, this quiet, shy cowboy showed what he was really made of He was defending the relationship he had with Jack twice, in Alma's kitchen at thanksgiving and defended it again by going to LF after Jack's death to retreive the ashes so that it could be as Jack wanted, coming face to face with hatred of the relationship in the form of Jack's father, he did'nt know what he'd encounter when he got there, yet he came.
I think that day after FNIT, when he went face to face with the dead sheep, he was confronting the fear that was there, from the past... the flies circling the corpse, the smell... (recall the face he made, that first day when Jack Twist related the incident of lightning killing all 'em sheep and the smell. He may even then be reminded of the smell that horrible day, depending which way the wind was blowing then). In a sense, I can see his killing the coyote, and burying the dead sheep, as a way of him making peace with that incident, and then went looking for Jack, declaring that he ain't queer. He was willing to open up to some fun between friends, but he ain't gonna commit to being called queer. Jack wasn't happy about that, but he was willing to let be. "Me neither. It ain't nobody's business but ours."
No, he was not the best communicator with words but his possessiveness and the fierce jeaulosy he showed more than made up for for what he could not say verbally about the way he felt about Jack. I think he embraced the lonesome cowboy persona because there's where he felt most comfortable, most safe, because he held much hidden within, many secrets he felt he could not let be known. Jack was the only one who could know how deeply personal the story of Earl and Rich , how much it meant to Ennis to tell it. Why he needed to tell it. He knew Jack could be trusted to easily read this complicated man. He hoped Jack would now know How he was hurt and Why it was so hard for Ennis to let go of his pain.
Yes, I agree completely. It's why they are soul mates. They understand each other in a way that no one else can come close. Jack reaching out to career Ennis' ear after the story, that speaks volume, silently, and the look on Ennis' face reveal that he also understood how much Jack cared and understood about him. For someone to tell that story for the first time in his life, probably, and get a response that touches his soul, no wonder Ennis was devoted to Jack all his life.
I believe he connected Jack's fate with Earl's, in the end, his fears demanded it be true. MO
I don't know if Ennis demanded it to be true. I think he was hoping to avoid it, but when it happened, his fears latched on, and made it true, no matter what Loreen said. In addition to the regular normal grief, survivor guilt, Ennis had to deal with homophobic vengeance. As Jackster said in another thread, the expression of Ennis' face when talking with Loreen, hearing the detail of Jack's death, was excruciating pain, inner turmoil that grabbed hold of his entire being. The tire iron was the one symbol that made sense of what he felt, that same feeling of terror from thirty years ago, that never completely went away.
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I don't think he was austistic either.
Ennis clearly cherished three things. His girls, his horses and Jack Twist. In them he found peace, love, and patience and understanding. Regardless of what Ennis felt as a child and the vicious traumas he suffered, in the end, this quiet, shy cowboy showed what he was really made of He was defending the relationship he had with Jack twice, in Alma's kitchen at thanksgiving and defended it again by going to LF after Jack's death to retreive the ashes so that it could be as Jack wanted, coming face to face with hatred of the relationship in the form of Jack's father, he did'nt know what he'd encounter when he got there, yet he came. No, he was not the best communicator with words but his possessiveness and the fierce jeaulosy he showed more than made up for for what he could not say verbally about the way he felt about Jack. I think he embraced the lonesome cowboy persona because there's where he felt most comfortable, most safe, because he held much hidden within, many secrets he felt he could not let be known. Jack was the only one who could know how deeply personal the story of Earl and Rich , how much it meant to Ennis to tell it. Why he needed to tell it. He knew Jack could be trusted to easily read this complicated man. He hoped Jack would now know How he was hurt and Why it was so hard for Ennis to let go of his pain. I believe he connected Jack's fate with Earl's, in the end, his fears demanded it be true. MO
Very good analysis of Ennis's character. I think he's not given enough credit for going to see Jack's parents in the end. Ennis had to overcome so much fear just to do that. His relationship with Jack would be out in the open, in front of John Twist, someone Ennis knew would be hateful of it. So Ennis took a big step by getting the courage to go and confront that. And Jack always understood Ennis and understood why he was afraid. He was frustrated that Ennis couldn't gather up more courage and fight for their love, but he also understood the pain and fear and sympathized with Ennis. The softness and comfort of his words and his touch after Ennis recounts the story of Earl and Rich speaks volumes about that.
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If it is developed in childhood, then it means at some point it was NOT there, i.e. Ennis at say, nine before witnessing the death scene. So you support my point that the conflicted nature of Ennis' subsequent homophobia does not necessarily have anything to do with any sexual feelings conscious or other wise, that the violent event itself was the source of the conflicted nature.
I did not assume anything. You stated earlier specifically that sexual orientation and identity are defined by the an early age.
As I said, you made this point to tie the trauma to the orientation, and my point is that it is equally plausible that the orientation is subsequent to the trauma. It is not definitive one way or the other because there is insufficient information, in my opinion. You are of an apparently different opinion, and as we said in the "Was Ennis Gay?" thread we can agree to disagree. But this thread is about "Was Ennis Autistic?"
The last time I checked the definition, sexual orientation can mean straight or gay. ;) Since when did it connote gayness exclusively? ;) Again, I think you assume too much...
And to return to the topic, I read recently that there is a theory that autism is not necessarily a genetic or pathological disorder, but rather, a systemic disorder due to different or a combination of different disorders manifesting neurologically. So the question is whether the psychological trauma can create psychosomatic disorders which combine to manifest in autistic spectrum disorder. I recognize that it is a long sequence of suppositions and the answer is most likely in the negative, which would be in keeping in the emerging consensus that Ennis was not autistic but simply shy and quiet.
Certainly a good point!
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I don't know if Ennis demanded it to be true. I think he was hoping to avoid it, but when it happened, his fears latched on, and made it true, no matter what Loreen said. In addition to the regular normal grief, survivor guilt, Ennis had to deal with homophobic vengeance. As Jackster said in another thread, the expression of Ennis' face when talking with Loreen, hearing the detail of Jack's death, was excruciating pain, inner turmoil that grabbed hold of his entire being. The tire iron was the one symbol that made sense of what he felt, that same feeling of terror from thirty years ago, that never completely went away.
I don't believe he demanded it to be true either. He didn't want to think that the person he loved so much was killed in such a horrible way, but his fear of course made him believe that is how Jack was killed, and it was also the pain of Jack suffering what Ennis had tried so hard so protect both himself and Jack from all those years. It's like he felt Jack's pain, and also the pain of how he had hurt Jack, that he should have just listened and gone to live with him, because they would have been safer together after all. You're right that image of Earl and Rich had scarred him, and in the end after Jack's death, part of Ennis's "Jack, I swear", which of course as we discussed in another topic means many things all condensed into three words, but part of that for sure meant that he was sorry he couldn't have been there for Jack.
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I don't believe he demanded it to be true either. He didn't want to think that the person he loved so much was killed in such a horrible way, but his fear of course made him believe that is how Jack was killed, and it was also the pain of Jack suffering what Ennis had tried so hard so protect both himself and Jack from all those years. It's like he felt Jack's pain, and also the pain of how he had hurt Jack, that he should have just listened and gone to live with him, because they would have been safer together after all. You're right that image of Earl and Rich had scarred him, and in the end after Jack's death, part of Ennis's "Jack, I swear", which of course as we discussed in another topic means many things all condensed into three words, but part of that for sure meant that he was sorry he couldn't have been there for Jack.
I agree. I think it's why Ang Lee made the right decision, to leave out the scenes of Jack meeting up with Randall in the gay station, etc. Its absence make the movie follow what was in the shortstory, leaving the interpretation ambiguous, and emphasizing the internal struggle within Ennis, seeing the tire iron in his mind, instead of making it real.
The pain and guilt of grief made it inevitable that Ennis felt regret, for not being with Jack, all 'em years, and made his transformation in Lightning Flats more poignant, than if Jack was really murdered, and the murderers got away with the crime. What's important, in my opinion, is Ennis' regret, not the cause of Jack's death.
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As a young child, Ennis suffered two traumatic events, his father taking him to see Earl dead, a victim of a hate crime by homophobes. Then the deaths of both his parents. How Ennis dealt with these two events may have shaped a big part of who Ennis became as an adult. imho, the trauma was never dealt with at all. There were no child phsychologists to help Ennis find closure regarding the events or comfort other than a brother and sister who were also left to find their own way.. I can only imagine the pain ,fear he must have felt. Could it be that Ennis may have connected love and stability with death and/punishment?
I just feel that Ennis was taught to hate by his father, but hate as well as love is a personal matter. A reflection of one's own inners feelings concerning a set of events outside one's control. I don't feel Ennis ever hated gays but felt a part of himself carried much fear for/of them. I think he hated the events that led to that fear, not the people involved that incuded his father. Fear that the same fate as Earl would befall he or Jack if he dared to love openly /freely and was the basis for his secrecy and lonesomeness.
He meant to protect, but ironically, it is the same fear that prevented him being there for Jack when Jack needed him most. He could not reconcile fear and love. When Jack died, it was his worst fear realized and made it almost impossible to not feel Jack was murdered the way he envisioned. This is what I meant when I said Ennis's fears within commanded him at that point regardless of what Loreen said.
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You made some good points, aintfoolin. The death of his parents came close behind the murder. He had a year of junior high, so there was probably no more than three to four years separating the two traumatic events.
We don't know for sure how Ennis felt, nor how he dealt with these events. We can only be certain that the first terrorized him, probably forever, and the second made him feel guilty and lonely. I suspect the times being what they were, Ennis was simply left alone to deal with it as best he could. He probably simply bottled up his feelings and tried to ignore them, carrying on with the daily chores. Not much drama happens in the quiet rural setting.
His brother and sister were probably no help, since the short story told of his brother bullying him, until he stood up for himself. Ennis was never loved like Jack was by his Ma. That's for sure.
I don't know if Ennis hated queers, or simply avoided being labeled as one. To hate is to be on the offensive, seeking out victims for gay-bashing. To avoid it is to be on the defensive, to avoid the fate of being a victim.
I don't know if Ennis wanted to protect Jack from being killed. I think he was more concerned with himself, and Jack just happened to be in the picture. And of course, as you all pointed out, the irony of this so call protecting himself from gay-bashing resulted in endless pain and suffering, first for Jack, and later for himself.
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You made some good points, aintfoolin. The death of his parents came close behind the murder. He had a year of junior high, so there was probably no more than three to four years separating the two traumatic events.
We don't know for sure how Ennis felt, nor how he dealt with these events. We can only be certain that the first terrorized him, probably forever, and the second made him feel guilty and lonely. I suspect the times being what they were, Ennis was simply left alone to deal with it as best he could. He probably simply bottled up his feelings and tried to ignore them, carrying on with the daily chores. Not much drama happens in the quiet rural setting.
His brother and sister were probably no help, since the short story told of his brother bullying him, until he stood up for himself. Ennis was never loved like Jack was by his Ma. That's for sure.
I don't know if Ennis hated queers, or simply avoided being labeled as one. To hate is to be on the offensive, seeking out victims for gay-bashing. To avoid it is to be on the defensive, to avoid the fate of being a victim.
I don't know if Ennis wanted to protect Jack from being killed. I think he was more concerned with himself, and Jack just happened to be in the picture. And of course, as you all pointed out, the irony of this so call protecting himself from gay-bashing resulted in endless pain and suffering, first for Jack, and later for himself.
I agree with these great points lancecowboy thank you.. I imagine Ennis felt scared confused and well...shocked at these very tramatic events in his young life. As you say Ennis most likely bottled it all up inside but never found closure. He withdrew into his own little world and stayed there I think, trying to avoid the reality of the trauma. Perhaps this accounts for Ennis's "bursts" of violent anger when anyone , even Jack got too close for comfort.
I don't feel Ennis had any hate although his father tried desperatly to show him that he should. In fact Ennis may have become sympathetic to Earl and Rich's plight realizing the situation he found himself in with Jack, but not enough to ranch up and suffer their fate.. Death had taken so much from him, his innocence, his parents, then in the end, his precious Jack, the love of his life. In each instance Ennis had nowhere or no one to turn to in order to find closure. We saw much anger and easy tears from him. The only clear outward expression of his deep emotional scars..
I do feel he feared for Jack's safety as well as his own. When he showed jealousy and anger at Jack's unfaithfulness in Mexico, I think he felt Jack careless and dangerous to involve others. Of course he wanted to protect himself, but Jack being an extension of himself in love made him fear for both their lives.MHO
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I do feel he feared for Jack's safety as well as his own. When he showed jealousy and anger at Jack's unfaithfulness in Mexico, I think he felt Jack careless and dangerous to involve others. Of course he wanted to protect himself, but Jack being an extension of himself in love made him fear for both their lives.MHO
I am not sure Ennis was angry over a safety issue, with Jack going to Mexico.
:s) I honestly don't know for sure what Ennis felt when he got so angry and jealous over Jack going to Mexico.
On the one hand, perhaps Ennis heard about the easy prostitutes in Mexico, and warned Jack about "catching something". It's a common reaction for spouses who find cheating husbands and wives, in today's dangerous social environment.
On the other hand, in 'em earlier days, when STD are not so prevalent, perhaps Ennis was simply angry over Jack's unfaithfulness, after all, he was devoted to Jack, and felt that Jack's affairs was being unfaithful. Ennis told Jack before their FNIT that he hadn't had the opportunity to be the sinner that Jack implied himself to be. In the short story, Ennis also confessed in Motel Siesta that he only think of Jack, and no one else. I think Jack at some point implied that he, too, was only into Ennis and no one else. However, I confess that I don't recall exactly where that implication can be found. In any case, it's common enough, for people in a relationship to get jealous over the potential loss of love and affection.
Fear of disease? Jealous? Fear for Jack's safety?
I don't what it was, but whatever it was, Ennis' abrupt eruption, threatening Jack, and stabbing him with his finger, was a shock, even to Jack. I think Alma might have an idea of this anger, from her expression in the store, when Ennis dropped off the kids so he could go tend to the cows that were calfing. Jack and Ennis never had much to disagree with in the past, except for the riverside scene, you ever got the feeling...? And moving to Texas.... But this anger was very different, very physical, almost leading to a fist fight, like that last afternoon on the mountain.
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Certainly Ennis was devoted to Jack, but perhaps that was the problem. Ennis was so caught up and possessive of Jack that he expected Jack to be forever faithful as he was, he found out Jack was not. Jack belonged to him. Jack's body belonged to him and Jack was sharing his body with someone other than him. To Jack it was just a sexual release, but to Ennis it was much more. Every thing Ennis had on the line concerning the relationship was at stake. a threat to everything Ennis felt he had sacrificed for up until that point, it was all about Jack. The lies, the secrecy, even the failure of his marriage was tied to his love for Jack. I don't think Ennis was going to give up what he had with Jack without a fight, or at least some serious explaining.
Perhaps Ennis's anger stemmed from the guilt of his own shortcomings within the relationship, his inability to shake his fears and fully commit to Jack and ranch up. Ennis had serious expectations of Jack, but it seems those expectations did'nt extend to what Jack wanted from him. He was so excruciatingly deep. :m}...but I loved him.
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I agree that Ennis was definitely not like his father. He wasn't a hateful monster like that. He was a gentle soul who could never hurt anyone. His fear was deep-rooted however, and it's what set the stage for the rest of this life for him, until Jack's death when he realizes how destructive his fear had been to him and how much he's unintentionally hurt Jack by denying him what they both deserved. And I definitely believe his fear was also for Jack as well as himself. When he first tells the story of Earl and Rich to him, it's clear that he's thinking about the safety of both himself and Jack. The way Jack reached out to him and comforted him was something he'd never felt before from any other person. He never thought someone would understand the pain, fear, and emotional scarring that experience had caused him, so it meant everything to him that Jack was so kind and compassionate. Jack was also the first person of course that showed the same sympathy for Earl and Rich that I believe Ennis had always felt. So I do believe he was concerned for the safety of both of them, even though being apart would make them miserable, Ennis saw no other way and felt powerless to change things, that's what he means by "If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it." As for the Mexico part, I believe it was mostly because Ennis felt very hurt by Jack being unfaithful to him. Ennis loved Jack deeply, and he had remained faithful to Jack, so he felt Jack should do the same. Any person who truly loves another person will be deeply hurt and upset by that person being unfaithful to them. Ennis didn't understand that Jack's flings with other men didn't mean anything, and they were simply the way Jack used to numb his pain of being apart from the one person he needed, Ennis. Of course it was very hurtful to Ennis that Jack had sex with other men, and Jack tried to explain the reason for it, but it didn't do much to abate Ennis's hurt. So yes, most of that is from Ennis's hurt, but I do believe part of it had to be from fear of Jack being so careless as well. Remember that Ennis sometimes reacted outwardly in ways that were different from what he was truly feeling inside. This, like the fight on the last day during the first summer, is another example. Throughout the whole last conversation, Ennis isn't voicing what he's truly feeling, he's simply hinting at them, expecting Jack to realize what he means, and what he truly feels, just like he did back then. It is not until he can no longer hold back his tears, till Jack comes up to embrace him and take him in his arms and comfort him, that Ennis shows what he's truly feeling on the inside during that conversation.
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Thanks, Athena, aintfoolin, for you insights into Ennis' feelings and motivation at the final confrontation over Jack going to Mexico. I think you all hit the nail on the head. O0