Author Topic: was ennis autistic?  (Read 57264 times)

vedrana

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Re: was ennis autistic?
« Reply #30 on: Sep 02, 2009, 03:15 AM »
I see. Interesting point. What if...Ennis was raised by his homophobic father, perhaps with a loving mother, instead of his brother and sister? Would he become homophobic, and perhaps even a gay basher, to overcompensate for his own feelings? We'll never know.

And yes, many others had childhood like his, but turn out differently.

Would the combination of a seed of self-hatred planted early in life and a lack of loving nurturing like Jack's Ma, yield the self-imposed isolation for Ennis? Perhaps, and I agree we should not mix the two. Each has its distinct impact.

I think Jack's love was enough to open up Ennis and lead him to a sweet life, eventually. The tragedy was that he only had sixteen years, and the time was snatched from him. Was it long enough? I'd like to think that by the final scene, it was enough, even though he opened to an empty bed, an empty trailer, he had to rely on his memories and his dreams. It was still better than being locked inside his own world, not even reaching out to Junior or Jack's Ma. It was not as good as with Jack, but it was enough for someone who was happy with beans.


I believe that it was less a matter of time (16 years) and more the matter of the circumstances which sorted out just in the worst moment - the moment of Jack's death.

This story left open many questions as well as our hearts.  :\'(

So, we don't know if Ennis would have opened much earlier, had Jack confronted him with his trips to Mexico some years ago. Maybe if Cassie mentioned "falling in love" much earlier, he would have understand it and connected it with Jack's love. My point is that it was not about the time, but about the events which fell in the worst possible time - Ennis's realization of their feelings and Jack's death. Couldn't be worse!

Love the bold part, although it's heartbreaking.


vedrana

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Re: was ennis autistic?
« Reply #31 on: Sep 02, 2009, 03:36 AM »
I definitely don't believe Ennis had any sort of autistic disorder. I share a lot of qualities with Ennis, and I'm not autistic in the least bit. I don't know why this society values talkative people more than quiet ones. If you are quiet, it's considered almost "abnormal" by society. Being quiet or not making eye contact much, or not joining in the group and chatting is considered by this society to be something wrong with a person. I find that very sad. The fact is that most people's talk is just empty and lacks meaning and depth. Most people talk and talk and talk but what do they really have to say? There is an old Taoist proverb that goes something like this: "Those who don't know, say, but those who know don't say." I find it to be very true in this world. A lot of people who are quiet, it doesn't mean that we don't have anything to say, or that we're not thinking. Still waters run the deepest. I myself am an introverted person, and don't often say what I'm feeling, or what I'm thinking. In certain East Asian cultures, being introverted and quiet is thought of as a higher quality than being chatty and talking all the time without really knowing what you're talking about, or saying empty meaningless things. Sometimes I've found those who are the most vocal are also the most ignorant. So I think as a culture, society needs to stop treating introvertedness as something abnormal or strange. That said, I feel I understand Ennis and that the way he is was his inward personality and self and also because of his fears and distrust of others. Also, he is a human soul on his own journey, and we all have lessons we learn all the way that help us grow spiritually. For Ennis, that lesson was to let go of all the fear and conditioning of society, and to listen to your heart and just be who you are. Only his soulmate, Jack could show him and teach him this. Ennis had a long hard road learning that lesson in this life, and in the end, he has a lot of regret for not learning it sooner, but he does achieve what he's meant to in this life.

Dear Athena,

I consider myself to be much more like Jack - talkative and opened person. And yes, sometimes i talk without saying much, but you have to know that it is not always about saying something deep - most of the times is to make people around you comfortable, to speak some little unimportant things to relax others who don't feel so easy about something. This would be soooooo boring and awful place to live at, if we were all the same. Differences are so interesting and necessary.

I don't see Ennis to be medically abnormal in any way, but he had problems in communication. We can not deny that.

Jack and Ennis are two different halves of the same beautiful whole! They were both sweet souls and dear men, regardless of quantity of the words they spoke. And I love them both!

athena0204

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Re: was ennis autistic?
« Reply #32 on: Sep 02, 2009, 06:49 AM »
Dear Athena,

I consider myself to be much more like Jack - talkative and opened person. And yes, sometimes i talk without saying much, but you have to know that it is not always about saying something deep - most of the times is to make people around you comfortable, to speak some little unimportant things to relax others who don't feel so easy about something. This would be soooooo boring and awful place to live at, if we were all the same. Differences are so interesting and necessary.

I don't see Ennis to be medically abnormal in any way, but he had problems in communication. We can not deny that.

Jack and Ennis are two different halves of the same beautiful whole! They were both sweet souls and dear men, regardless of quantity of the words they spoke. And I love them both!


It's true that Jack being more talkative is a good thing because he could initiate conversation with Ennis. I didn't mean that I don't like people with personalities similar to Jack's. What I was talking about when I said that a lot of people in this world talk without saying much is how there are a lot of ignorant, insensitive, rude people in this world sadly who are very vocal, and also those who just talk about meaningless things to create a group and ostracize people who aren't like them. Everyone Ennis had met before Jack was like that. They went on talking, and Ennis didn't fit in. He felt lonely and isolated, and no one bothered to look deeper and reach out to Ennis and try to understand him, and treat him like a real human being. His "shyness" was because of his introvertedness and quietness, he would rather just be alone in his thoughts and feelings because no one understood him, and he didn't belong. It didn't mean that Ennis didn't have the capability of talking and expressing himself, because inside himself, he did, just like every quiet and introverted person has. All they need is someone special to bring that out in them. All he needed was someone to reach out to him with pure kindness and understanding. The first words Jack says to Ennis was because he wanted to know more about him, and for the first time in this life, it touched Ennis that someone was giving him so much reverance and so much concern. Ennis could come out from behind his wall and open up and talk and laugh and feel comfortable, and you're right that that was what Jack did when they first met. He said some words in a very kind and caring manner, and it was to set Ennis at ease, to make him comfortable and to show him that there was at least one person in this cruel world who truly cared about him, and truly wanted to know him and to love him.

Offline tpe

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Re: was ennis autistic?
« Reply #33 on: Sep 02, 2009, 07:14 AM »
I am not so sure about that... Earl was the trigger point for Ennis. But,  only from that one event we know that Ennis's father was a merciless person, his brother was also a kind of a bully. Ennis was always suppressed and not allowed to open up - no one to open to. Only his mother, but how much could she do for him? Losing his parents was only a final strike, after his misfortune childhood. But the things were already unfavorable for him. He was already closed and introverted. So, I believe that his parents death wasn't the crucial point for his behavior in the terms of communication problems.

So would things have been different if sya his brother was more protecting and affectionate?  Would it have helped in alleviating his speach impediment, for example?  Had he been encouraged to express himself freely and affectionately, perhaps things would have been better.  I have known people who have undergone much trauma, but did not suffer in the long term because of the loving support of those around them.


vedrana

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Re: was ennis autistic?
« Reply #34 on: Sep 02, 2009, 07:46 AM »
So would things have been different if sya his brother was more protecting and affectionate?  Would it have helped in alleviating his speach impediment, for example?  Had he been encouraged to express himself freely and affectionately, perhaps things would have been better.  I have known people who have undergone much trauma, but did not suffer in the long term because of the loving support of those around them.



I agree that we can only speculate here... no real proof of anything, especially of the influence of his childhood... as we know about it so little. Yet, I believe that situation in his home was not favorable for him. He was the youngest, and probably never got the chance to step up to speak up. No one gave him any importance. That was a big part of his self confidence and the lack of it.

Losing parents is an awful thing for a child, but every child reacts different. We can not know how it affected him in particular, as he said that brother and sister treated him right. I would dare to suppose that 3 children left alone became more attached to each other and more protective about each other. Unfortunately, they didn't remain close afterward - probably all fighting to survive.

Even if Ennis had no homosexual preferences prior to seeing Earls mutilated body (and we can assume that he hadn't), the scene itself was so horrible and terrifying that any child would carve that into his mind and remember it forever. Later, being more aware of sexuality (of any kind) his fears were blocking him even more.

And of course, he could've been genetically silent person which is a base for developing even more severe communicating problems.


Offline lancecowboy

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Re: was ennis autistic?
« Reply #35 on: Sep 02, 2009, 08:28 AM »
Dear Athena,

I consider myself to be much more like Jack - talkative and opened person. And yes, sometimes i talk without saying much, but you have to know that it is not always about saying something deep - most of the times is to make people around you comfortable, to speak some little unimportant things to relax others who don't feel so easy about something. This would be soooooo boring and awful place to live at, if we were all the same. Differences are so interesting and necessary.

Spoke like a true Gemini!  O0 Yes, it took me a long time to learn that sometimes, small talk is to simply keep the communication channel open and clear. I was much more like Ennis - reticent and serious, with little to say. But that also creates the wall of silence that keeps people away. It's probably why Ennis didn't talk much, not necessarily because he didn't want to, but because circumstances and his reticence combined to form the feedback cycle that kept him in his own shell. Jack, as you said so beautiful, was the key that opened it up and set him free.

I don't see Ennis to be medically abnormal in any way, but he had problems in communication. We can not deny that.

Jack and Ennis are two different halves of the same beautiful whole! They were both sweet souls and dear men, regardless of quantity of the words they spoke. And I love them both!

 <^( <^(
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

vedrana

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Re: was ennis autistic?
« Reply #36 on: Sep 02, 2009, 08:46 AM »
Spoke like a true Gemini!  O0 Yes, it took me a long time to learn that sometimes, small talk is to simply keep the communication channel open and clear. I was much more like Ennis - reticent and serious, with little to say. But that also creates the wall of silence that keeps people away. It's probably why Ennis didn't talk much, not necessarily because he didn't want to, but because circumstances and his reticence combined to form the feedback cycle that kept him in his own shell. Jack, as you said so beautiful, was the key that opened it up and set him free.

 <^( <^(

 ;D I guess so!

And you won't believe how silent people can be attractive for the talkative ones...  :s: as if there's a hidden treasure sealed by their lips, begging to be found. I am sure that Jack felt the same about Ennis. Looking for the hidden pearl of Ennis's soul. He was so moved and excited when Ennis spoke a little more for the first time.  <^( And Ennis was attracted to Jack's sweet words and acceptance....   <^(

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: was ennis autistic?
« Reply #37 on: Sep 02, 2009, 08:46 AM »

It's true that Jack being more talkative is a good thing because he could initiate conversation with Ennis. I didn't mean that I don't like people with personalities similar to Jack's. What I was talking about when I said that a lot of people in this world talk without saying much is how there are a lot of ignorant, insensitive, rude people in this world sadly who are very vocal, and also those who just talk about meaningless things to create a group and ostracize people who aren't like them. Everyone Ennis had met before Jack was like that. They went on talking, and Ennis didn't fit in. He felt lonely and isolated, and no one bothered to look deeper and reach out to Ennis and try to understand him, and treat him like a real human being.

I think that is the key, not the amount of words, but the quality of the communication. There can people who say little, but every word is ignorant, insensitive and rude. John Twist comes to mind. Bullying doesn't need to be verbose. A few choice words can hurt just as much. The key, as you said, is Jack being interested and open to Ennis. For once, Ennis felt he was the center of someone's attention. More than that, he felt he was respected, by someone he respects in turn.

His "shyness" was because of his introvertedness and quietness, he would rather just be alone in his thoughts and feelings because no one understood him, and he didn't belong. It didn't mean that Ennis didn't have the capability of talking and expressing himself, because inside himself, he did, just like every quiet and introverted person has. All they need is someone special to bring that out in them. All he needed was someone to reach out to him with pure kindness and understanding. The first words Jack says to Ennis was because he wanted to know more about him, and for the first time in this life, it touched Ennis that someone was giving him so much reverance and so much concern. Ennis could come out from behind his wall and open up and talk and laugh and feel comfortable, and you're right that that was what Jack did when they first met. He said some words in a very kind and caring manner, and it was to set Ennis at ease, to make him comfortable and to show him that there was at least one person in this cruel world who truly cared about him, and truly wanted to know him and to love him.


Yes, the moments of friendship and love slowly accumulated over the summer, from the initial handshake, Jack's tenderness when Ennis came upon a bear, Ennis shooting the elk and switching for Jack's sake, all point to a love built on a friendship.

I think there is more to it than just a simple friendship because Ennis was capable of having friends, like meeting Alma, and able to borrow Wroe's cabin. The friendship between Jack and Ennis was special because they had an easy rapport, a light humor that makes life fun and joyous, not burdensome and heavy...speaking to Loreen's point about small talk. They could smalltalk each other all day and not be bored because each little sentence of meaningless nonsense is an opportunity to express affection, like "Better quiet down, or you're going to scatter them sheep again." or "The tent don't look right." or ....

When it is true love, it doesn't matter if it is silence or small talk or serious discussion, the love and respect shine through.

Without love, silence or words, they both feel suppressive for the individual, either as lonely isolation, or in the case of bullies, a one-sided attempt to dominate the other into submission.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

athena0204

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Re: was ennis autistic?
« Reply #38 on: Sep 02, 2009, 01:09 PM »
I think that is the key, not the amount of words, but the quality of the communication. There can people who say little, but every word is ignorant, insensitive and rude. John Twist comes to mind. Bullying doesn't need to be verbose. A few choice words can hurt just as much. The key, as you said, is Jack being interested and open to Ennis. For once, Ennis felt he was the center of someone's attention. More than that, he felt he was respected, by someone he respects in turn.

Yes, the moments of friendship and love slowly accumulated over the summer, from the initial handshake, Jack's tenderness when Ennis came upon a bear, Ennis shooting the elk and switching for Jack's sake, all point to a love built on a friendship.

I think there is more to it than just a simple friendship because Ennis was capable of having friends, like meeting Alma, and able to borrow Wroe's cabin. The friendship between Jack and Ennis was special because they had an easy rapport, a light humor that makes life fun and joyous, not burdensome and heavy...speaking to Loreen's point about small talk. They could smalltalk each other all day and not be bored because each little sentence of meaningless nonsense is an opportunity to express affection, like "Better quiet down, or you're going to scatter them sheep again." or "The tent don't look right." or ....

When it is true love, it doesn't matter if it is silence or small talk or serious discussion, the love and respect shine through.

Without love, silence or words, they both feel suppressive for the individual, either as lonely isolation, or in the case of bullies, a one-sided attempt to dominate the other into submission.


Yes, that is what I meant to say. Very well spoken! It is definitely not the amount of words, it is quality, not quantity as you said. There are people who can say just a few words but they have so much meaning for a person like Ennis if those words of sincere kindness and caring and love. That is how Jack spoke to Ennis. When you know the other person truly respects, loves, and cares about you deeply, then every little conversation takes on a deeper meaning, everything is important and everything has that meaning. I understand how Ennis was uncomfortable around most people, because I'm like that myself. Ennis didn't trust people, and every word or glance from them felt threatening to him, felt hurtful. That is why he had retreated further and further behind his wall. When Jack came along, he was completely different because he treated Ennis in a way no one else ever had before. His genuine compassion and kindness for Ennis put Ennis at ease and allowed him to finally emerge from behind his wall and fall in love with Jack.

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: was ennis autistic?
« Reply #39 on: Sep 02, 2009, 02:08 PM »
Yes, that is what I meant to say. Very well spoken! It is definitely not the amount of words, it is quality, not quantity as you said. There are people who can say just a few words but they have so much meaning for a person like Ennis if those words of sincere kindness and caring and love. That is how Jack spoke to Ennis. When you know the other person truly respects, loves, and cares about you deeply, then every little conversation takes on a deeper meaning, everything is important and everything has that meaning. I understand how Ennis was uncomfortable around most people, because I'm like that myself. Ennis didn't trust people, and every word or glance from them felt threatening to him, felt hurtful. That is why he had retreated further and further behind his wall. When Jack came along, he was completely different because he treated Ennis in a way no one else ever had before. His genuine compassion and kindness for Ennis put Ennis at ease and allowed him to finally emerge from behind his wall and fall in love with Jack.

Yes, our own mood can color our perception. Even when something neutral and unaffected can be perceived to be either respectful and caring, or oppositely, mean and hurtful, simply depending on whether we trust or distrust the person. Jack was careful how he approached Ennis in the beginning. He made quite the first impression charging in on his truck, kicking and swearing...the macho rodeo that Ennis' daddy warned him about, but he was also kind and polite, introducing himself, shaking hands, and asked for the last name in a light humorous way that put Ennis at ease. Then the bit in the bar, feeling sympathy for Ennis when he talked about his folks...that all laid the groundwork that later led to Ennis talking by the fireside, saying more than he did in a year. I should add that Jack did all that in the beginning unintentionally, simply being himself, being sincere, but that's why their love is part of their destiny of the two souls meeting. It's something that can only be given, not found, not made with agenda or planned.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: was ennis autistic?
« Reply #40 on: Sep 02, 2009, 02:13 PM »
 Wow, it's been a while but just came across this thread and just  had to break out of lurkdom and comment.  First I do not feel that there was anything wrong with Ennis. I just think he was a product of his upbring, his environment.

I totally agree with those who say that it was Jack who was able to break through Ennis's  lonely wall. I beleive Ennis was conditioned as a child of strict discipline  coupled with emotional neglect.  Does'nt mean that he did'nt have his own  ideas, thoughts about life but he was made to feel that he could not communicate them freely. I feel the fear of judgement and rejection became ingrained in Ennis's already painfully shy, basic personality. I also feel with the isolated surroundings of Brokeback Mt and the one on one attention in the relationship with  Jack, a part of him was set free once he found that he was accepted for who he truly was. With patience and persistence, Jack took the lead , showing Ennis that he did'nt need to be this totally closed up book.  Jack showed him that he did'nt have to be  the perfect communicator. .  He could be himself wether he spoke a little or a lot and still be understood and accepted in Jack's eyes..  Showing Ennis his own imperfections,, Jack made it  comforting for Ennis to let down his guard and let someone in.  What Ennis could not speak, he made up for through actions.  His father was a man of strong convictions and beliefs even going as far as showing his young son the body of a dead Earl to prove a point. This was not the actions of a man who valued free expression and openess . In short , Ennis was conditioned to hold back feeling or emotion and  somwhere along the line Ennis lost who he truly was. In Jack , I feel he found that part of himself long missing. MHO.
I think that is the key, not the amount of words, but the quality of the communication. There can people who say little, but every word is ignorant, insensitive and rude. John Twist comes to mind. Bullying doesn't need to be verbose. A few choice words can hurt just as much. The key, as you said, is Jack being interested and open to Ennis. For once, Ennis felt he was the center of someone's attention. More than that, he felt he was respected, by someone he respects in turn.

Yes, the moments of friendship and love slowly accumulated over the summer, from the initial handshake, Jack's tenderness when Ennis came upon a bear, Ennis shooting the elk and switching for Jack's sake, all point to a love built on a friendship.

I think there is more to it than just a simple friendship because Ennis was capable of having friends, like meeting Alma, and able to borrow Wroe's cabin. The friendship between Jack and Ennis was special because they had an easy rapport, a light humor that makes life fun and joyous, not burdensome and heavy...speaking to Loreen's point about small talk. They could smalltalk each other all day and not be bored because each little sentence of meaningless nonsense is an opportunity to express affection, like "Better quiet down, or you're going to scatter them sheep again." or "The tent don't look right." or ....

When it is true love, it doesn't matter if it is silence or small talk or serious discussion, the love and respect shine through.

Without love, silence or words, they both feel suppressive for the individual, either as lonely isolation, or in the case of bullies, a one-sided attempt to dominate the other into submission.


Precisley!
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

vedrana

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Re: was ennis autistic?
« Reply #41 on: Sep 02, 2009, 02:26 PM »
Hi there aintfoolin! ^f^

Just wanted to say hello to you!

It's been a while.  :^^)

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: was ennis autistic?
« Reply #42 on: Sep 02, 2009, 08:37 PM »
Welcome to the discussion, aintfooling.

Beautifully said, accepting others AND oneself, imperfection and all. That's the key to love.

Jack's Ma's love accepted Jack the way he was, even if he were never good enough for the old man. For her love, Jack learned self-acceptance, and acceptance of others, especially Ennis.  :^^) ^f^

Thanks for the clear insight, aintfooling.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

athena0204

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Re: was ennis autistic?
« Reply #43 on: Sep 02, 2009, 10:16 PM »
Also, it's quite amazing how true love can transform life. Jack and Ennis had tough, ordinary, mundane lives, but meeting each other and falling in love transformed everything. Jack took Ennis's ordinary life and made it extraordinary. No matter that they were apart most of the time, and they had to live out the lives that society expected of them, knowing that each one of them had the other gave them a completely different view on life. Everything became so meaningful, so epic, so extraordinary.

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: was ennis autistic?
« Reply #44 on: Sep 02, 2009, 11:02 PM »
Also, it's quite amazing how true love can transform life. Jack and Ennis had tough, ordinary, mundane lives, but meeting each other and falling in love transformed everything. Jack took Ennis's ordinary life and made it extraordinary. No matter that they were apart most of the time, and they had to live out the lives that society expected of them, knowing that each one of them had the other gave them a completely different view on life. Everything became so meaningful, so epic, so extraordinary.

Indeed, Love - the force of nature, that transforms the ordinary into the extraordinary.  ^f^
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline tpe

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Re: was ennis autistic?
« Reply #45 on: Sep 03, 2009, 06:59 AM »
I agree that we can only speculate here... no real proof of anything, especially of the influence of his childhood... as we know about it so little. Yet, I believe that situation in his home was not favorable for him. He was the youngest, and probably never got the chance to step up to speak up. No one gave him any importance. That was a big part of his self confidence and the lack of it.

Losing parents is an awful thing for a child, but every child reacts different. We can not know how it affected him in particular, as he said that brother and sister treated him right. I would dare to suppose that 3 children left alone became more attached to each other and more protective about each other. Unfortunately, they didn't remain close afterward - probably all fighting to survive.

Even if Ennis had no homosexual preferences prior to seeing Earls mutilated body (and we can assume that he hadn't), the scene itself was so horrible and terrifying that any child would carve that into his mind and remember it forever. Later, being more aware of sexuality (of any kind) his fears were blocking him even more.

And of course, he could've been genetically silent person which is a base for developing even more severe communicating problems.



Well, in connection with the Earl and Rich story, I have considered the possibility that it was especially traumatic to the 9-year-old Ennis perhaps because he recognized his own homosexual tendencies.  Of course, this cannot be proven, but it can helpm explain why the episode may have had a lasting effect on him...


Offline lancecowboy

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Re: was ennis autistic?
« Reply #46 on: Sep 03, 2009, 07:26 AM »
Well, in connection with the Earl and Rich story, I have considered the possibility that it was especially traumatic to the 9-year-old Ennis perhaps because he recognized his own homosexual tendencies.  Of course, this cannot be proven, but it can helpm explain why the episode may have had a lasting effect on him...

Since we are venturing into speculative territory, I think it's premature to suggest a nine-year-old has homosexual feelings. Granted, some precocious children, especially in urban environments and wise to sexual matters have been known to come out early, some even earlier than nine. However, I don't think Ennis had sexual feelings at that age.

What is more probable, in my opinion, is the scenario where the innocent Ennis befriended Earl and Rich, the queer old ducks, as any child would do when meeting friendly interesting neighbors. It is perhaps this innocent friendship that stirred his father into a murderous rage. Seeing a friend dying such horrific death is traumatic enough for any nine-year-old. On top of that, if his father had added admonition to Ennis that he was under no circumstance to ever associate with people like that again, Ennis would feel that it was his friendship that led to the death of a friend. It is this sense of guilt and of betrayal that traumatizes Ennis, and later when his sexuality develops, the grief transforms into homophobia, not necessarily out of his own sexual feelings but simply because he idolizes his father. Ironically, it is the depth of homophobia that often locks a young man's normal homoerotic feeling for other young men, into a permanent state of orientation. Healthy experimentation would allow the passing phase to give way to heterosexual curiosity in cases where such tendency exists. Just my 2 cents. As discussed else where, human development (sexually and personality) is so little understood by science, we can only speculate. In the specific case of Ennis where we have very limited information, we can only speculate with caveats of the wide range of uncertainty and unanswered questions. There is no definitive right or wrong answers. Only answers that feel right for one's own world view.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline tpe

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Re: was ennis autistic?
« Reply #47 on: Sep 04, 2009, 07:11 AM »
Since we are venturing into speculative territory, I think it's premature to suggest a nine-year-old has homosexual feelings. Granted, some precocious children, especially in urban environments and wise to sexual matters have been known to come out early, some even earlier than nine. However, I don't think Ennis had sexual feelings at that age.

What is more probable, in my opinion, is the scenario where the innocent Ennis befriended Earl and Rich, the queer old ducks, as any child would do when meeting friendly interesting neighbors. It is perhaps this innocent friendship that stirred his father into a murderous rage. Seeing a friend dying such horrific death is traumatic enough for any nine-year-old. On top of that, if his father had added admonition to Ennis that he was under no circumstance to ever associate with people like that again, Ennis would feel that it was his friendship that led to the death of a friend. It is this sense of guilt and of betrayal that traumatizes Ennis, and later when his sexuality develops, the grief transforms into homophobia, not necessarily out of his own sexual feelings but simply because he idolizes his father. Ironically, it is the depth of homophobia that often locks a young man's normal homoerotic feeling for other young men, into a permanent state of orientation. Healthy experimentation would allow the passing phase to give way to heterosexual curiosity in cases where such tendency exists. Just my 2 cents. As discussed else where, human development (sexually and personality) is so little understood by science, we can only speculate. In the specific case of Ennis where we have very limited information, we can only speculate with caveats of the wide range of uncertainty and unanswered questions. There is no definitive right or wrong answers. Only answers that feel right for one's own world view.


If we are to believe current psychology, they say that sexual preference is fixed at a much earlier age -- no later than 5 or 6, if I recall correctly.  I am not privy to the details of this subject, although I have had some discussions about this with various psychologist friends (both gay and straight).

It is not a question of a person consicously knowing his/her sexuality.  It is unconscious.  But that doesn't make it any less powerful or definitive, especially when it gets entangled with traumatic experiences.


Offline myprivatejack

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Re: was ennis autistic?
« Reply #48 on: Sep 04, 2009, 11:06 AM »
I don't know at what age psychologists think a person is conscious of one's sexual preferences;but what it's true is that any traumatic experience,more or less in rapport with sex,in an early age lets an indelible mark in this person's mind and soul.I agree in that it's unconscious this mark and the attraction that any forbidden question lets in a young mind.But I have always thought that Earl and Rich's tragedy made Ennis feel a repulsion but at the same time an attraction to what deserved so hard punishment.It's something that happens all the time with persons who has been educated in a very narrow minded and sin feared environment,for example.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: was ennis autistic?
« Reply #49 on: Sep 04, 2009, 11:54 AM »
Whether it is associated with sexual identity consciously or unconsciously, is best left to stodgy academics. All I have is the look on young Ennis face in the movie to go by, and the terror inflicted speaks volume. It is the terror that is the source of homophobia. You don't need to be gay or have gay feelings to be terrorized by brutality. No matter what Ennis' sexual identity was at nine (and that is questionable) the key was that he was terrified. We can dance around and speculate all we want, but it is terror, not sexual feelings, that shaped Ennis at that moment.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

athena0204

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Re: was ennis autistic?
« Reply #50 on: Sep 04, 2009, 05:26 PM »
Ennis, as introverted people often do, hardly ever voiced his thoughts, feelings, and beliefs. From my own experience, I can understand that because I feel isolated and surrounded by strangers. When you don't feel a connection to family and the people around you, when you aren't like them and they don't understand you, you don't voice your thoughts and feelings because they would not be understand, and if you do, you'll just be ridiculed or shunned. I don't believe Ennis idolized his horrible father in any way or was anything like him. Ennis was a gentle soul consumed by fear and hurt. His father's inculcations of hate, rage, and violence were things that scarred and hurt very much. There are some who say that a person's orientation is already unconciously known by the age of 5 or 6, because that is when the child first experiences some sort of attraction. So Ennis as a little boy may have had attraction to other boys, of course at that age a person is too young to understand those feelings. But whatever the case, it is clear that the circumstances in which Ennis was born into and grew up in, and the people he was surrounded by, his father, his family, the community around him, it is clear that Ennis had always felt isolated and out-of-place in that life, it's clear that his gentle and kind soul did not want to harbor the ignorance and hatred of people like his father. Therefore his father treating him like he did and showing him those things just caused the shy, introverted Ennis to begin building that wall around himself that he would use for the rest of his life to protect himself from the cruelty of this world. But destiny worked its remarkable will and gave Ennis the soulmate and true love that he deserved.

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: was ennis autistic?
« Reply #51 on: Sep 04, 2009, 05:41 PM »
Ennis, as introverted people often do, hardly ever voiced his thoughts, feelings, and beliefs. From my own experience, I can understand that because I feel isolated and surrounded by strangers. When you don't feel a connection to family and the people around you, when you aren't like them and they don't understand you, you don't voice your thoughts and feelings because they would not be understand, and if you do, you'll just be ridiculed or shunned. I don't believe Ennis idolized his horrible father in any way or was anything like him. Ennis was a gentle soul consumed by fear and hurt. His father's inculcations of hate, rage, and violence were things that scarred and hurt very much. There are some who say that a person's orientation is already unconciously known by the age of 5 or 6, because that is when the child first experiences some sort of attraction. So Ennis as a little boy may have had attraction to other boys, of course at that age a person is too young to understand those feelings. But whatever the case, it is clear that the circumstances in which Ennis was born into and grew up in, and the people he was surrounded by, his father, his family, the community around him, it is clear that Ennis had always felt isolated and out-of-place in that life, it's clear that his gentle and kind soul did not want to harbor the ignorance and hatred of people like his father. Therefore his father treating him like he did and showing him those things just caused the shy, introverted Ennis to begin building that wall around himself that he would use for the rest of his life to protect himself from the cruelty of this world. But destiny worked its remarkable will and gave Ennis the soulmate and true love that he deserved.

I agree with the red part 100%. As for people's orientation etc being set by the age of 5 and 6, etc, I am not convinced of the theory. In my opinion, there is insufficient understanding of the human brain, its development, and the diversity and complexity of the sexual orientation processes to definitive make any assertions beyond speculative theorizing. I am not against it, just pointing out the limitations so we don't err on the side of taking something as authoritative when it is not. Skepticism in this case is a good thing. It keeps scientists honest, and not assume that they have the definitive answer when they don't.

As for Ennis not idolizing his father, I must disagree. I bet most little boys try to emulate their father, idolize their father, and even when they are abused and treated badly by their father, still yearns for their approval and affections. Jack, for example, even when abused so badly by John Twist, still hope to one day have his old man's approval, to have him attend one of his rodeos, or share something with him. It's natural for little boys to look up to, and idolize their fathers.

As for Ennis' sexual orientation at the age of nine (and earlier according to your theory) is pure speculation. I admit SOME little boys have their orientation established at an early age, but human beings are far too complex and diverse to generalize from SOME to ALL, without extensive data to eliminate ALL possible counter examples. An absence of counter examples, given the limited state of our knowledge, does not mean that they don't exist. This is off topic, but it would be interesting to start a topic to discuss the relevant criteria to determine "little boys sexual orientation at a young age, consciously or UNCONSCIOUSLY". That's a tall order even for a Ph.D thesis.

Just my two cents worth.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

athena0204

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Re: was ennis autistic?
« Reply #52 on: Sep 04, 2009, 05:57 PM »
I agree with the red part 100%. As for people's orientation etc being set by the age of 5 and 6, etc, I am not convinced of the theory. In my opinion, there is insufficient understanding of the human brain, its development, and the diversity and complexity of the sexual orientation processes to definitive make any assertions beyond speculative theorizing. I am not against it, just pointing out the limitations so we don't err on the side of taking something as authoritative when it is not. Skepticism in this case is a good thing. It keeps scientists honest, and not assume that they have the definitive answer when they don't.

As for Ennis not idolizing his father, I must disagree. I bet most little boys try to emulate their father, idolize their father, and even when they are abused and treated badly by their father, still yearns for their approval and affections. Jack, for example, even when abused so badly by John Twist, still hope to one day have his old man's approval, to have him attend one of his rodeos, or share something with him. It's natural for little boys to look up to, and idolize their fathers.

As for Ennis' sexual orientation at the age of nine (and earlier according to your theory) is pure speculation. I admit SOME little boys have their orientation established at an early age, but human beings are far too complex and diverse to generalize from SOME to ALL, without extensive data to eliminate ALL possible counter examples. An absence of counter examples, given the limited state of our knowledge, does not mean that they don't exist. This is off topic, but it would be interesting to start a topic to discuss the relevant criteria to determine "little boys sexual orientation at a young age, consciously or UNCONSCIOUSLY". That's a tall order even for a Ph.D thesis.

Just my two cents worth.

Just to point out, that is not my theory, that is just something I encountered in a psychology class I took. I didn't mean to say Ennis felt that way or this way at that very young age. That is only speculation. As for the other part, I don't know what feelings Ennis had at age nine. But I see what you are saying about him yearning for his fathers affections and attention when he was a child. It is normal for young children, both boys and girls to want to please their parents at that age, even though their parents may be cruel. So it's fair to say that nine year old Ennis wanted his father to like him. But different people change as they get older, and I believe by the time his father died, he no longer cared about his father. The way he talks about him when he tells Jack the story of Earl and Rich is one of resentment. I believe as Ennis grew up, his eyes opened up more and more to this cruel world he was thrown into, and that's why he built that wall to protect himself, like I said. There is no way that Ennis was capable of the hate and violence his father was capable of. The story of Earl and Rich terrified and saddened him deeply. I could never ever imagine Ennis torturing and or killing anyone. He's a  very gentle soul. And gentle souls often build that exterior iron gate around themselves.

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: was ennis autistic?
« Reply #53 on: Sep 04, 2009, 09:11 PM »
Just to point out, that is not my theory, that is just something I encountered in a psychology class I took. I didn't mean to say Ennis felt that way or this way at that very young age. That is only speculation.

No worries, athena. I wasn't putting words in your mouth. I was only saying sometimes we put too much faith and trust in people who are supposedly professionals, when in fact all they have are theories. When they present their theories as fact, without caveat, we would be foolish to take them too seriously. I try to stay away from speculations most of the time.

As for the other part, I don't know what feelings Ennis had at age nine. But I see what you are saying about him yearning for his fathers affections and attention when he was a child. It is normal for young children, both boys and girls to want to please their parents at that age, even though their parents may be cruel. So it's fair to say that nine year old Ennis wanted his father to like him. But different people change as they get older, and I believe by the time his father died, he no longer cared about his father. The way he talks about him when he tells Jack the story of Earl and Rich is one of resentment. I believe as Ennis grew up, his eyes opened up more and more to this cruel world he was thrown into, and that's why he built that wall to protect himself, like I said. There is no way that Ennis was capable of the hate and violence his father was capable of. The story of Earl and Rich terrified and saddened him deeply. I could never ever imagine Ennis torturing and or killing anyone. He's a  very gentle soul. And gentle souls often build that exterior iron gate around themselves.

I agree with the bold part 100%. I think we need to separate the two time periods, Ennis as a nine-year-old after witnessing the murder, and Ennis as a nineteen-year-old when he met Jack, and then the twenty-something at the reunion when he retold the story. As you said, people evolve over time.

As a child, Ennis had no way of judging his father as cruel and filled with hatred. He simply accepted whatever was done, and was terrified.

As a teenager, he knew by that time that what his father did was cruel and fundamentally wrong, but he also internalized the homophobia because that's what society at that time was for him. He didn't like that part of his father, and would never emulate that part of him, but because society condoned homophobia, his father was still "acceptable" as his idol. The way he talked to Jack about his father showed that, in my opinion, there was a mixture of resentment and admiration, as most sons feel for their fathers. The older we get, the more clearly we see our parents as human beings with faults and all. In this case, Ennis learned to follow his father as a cowboy/ranch hand, but resented his cruelty. But without Jack, Ennis would never consciously disobey social customs. He was one who follow rules. Once he met Jack on the mountain that summer of '63, he looked at authority figures with new eyes, as can be seen in the subtle interactions between Ennis and Joe Aquierre. In the trailer, he was all respectful and subdued, while Jack was standing tall. After they came down the mountain, Ennis was strutting as much as Jack, spitting and turning his back on the man who thought 'em ranch hands were all no good.

As the twenty-something married man with children, I think Ennis understood the role of fatherhood better, and was more than willing to knock the old man off the pedestal. Like he said in the hotel, the old man would probably come in with the tire iron, but I'd like to think that Ennis at that point would be ready to defend himself, and stand up to the old man, no matter what.

Jack was the soul mate that helped Ennis find liberation.

Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

athena0204

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Re: was ennis autistic?
« Reply #54 on: Sep 04, 2009, 09:58 PM »
Just to point out, that is not my theory, that is just something I encountered in a psychology class I took. I didn't mean to say Ennis felt that way or this way at that very young age. That is only speculation. As for the other part, I don't know what feelings Ennis had at age nine. But I see what you are saying about him yearning for his fathers affections and attention when he was a child. It is normal for young children, both boys and girls to want to please their parents at that age, even though their parents may be cruel. So it's fair to say that nine year old Ennis wanted his father to like him. But different people change as they get older, and I believe by the time his father died, he no longer cared about his father. The way he talks about him when he tells Jack the story of Earl and Rich is one of resentment. I believe as Ennis grew up, his eyes opened up more and more to this cruel world he was thrown into, and that's why he built that wall to protect himself, like I said. There is no way that Ennis was capable of the hate and violence his father was capable of. The story of Earl and Rich terrified and saddened him deeply. I could never ever imagine Ennis torturing and or killing anyone. He's a  very gentle soul. And gentle souls often build that exterior iron gate around themselves.
It's true that the nine year old Ennis was completely terrified at what his father showed him, but at that point he couldn't fully comprehend what his father had done. As Ennis grew up, there is no doubt that he realized what his father had done was completely horrible and wrong and he looked upon it with disgust as well as fear. The childhood admiration was gone. I believe when he first meets Jack and begins to have those strong and deep feelings for him, the story of Earl and Rich is in the back of his mindhaunting him. He realizes that he is doing what Earl and Rich did, and he knows what horrible things people would do to him if the knew. The way he tells the story to Jack, is in a way of abhoration and disgust. By this time he realizes that he and Jack are like Earl and Rich, and he fears the same thing could happen to them. Jack realizes how hurt Ennis and afraid Ennis is and that is why he gently asks if Ennis saw this, to which Ennis replies that his father made sure to show him and his brother. While Jack all those years was frustrated that Ennis wouldn't listen to his heart and come live with him, he understood why Ennis was afraid. The way he reaches out gently and comforts Ennis by stroking his cheek shows the deep concern and understanding he has. When Ennis tells Jack that his father would kill them both if he were there, he fully realizes the parallel between him and Jack and Earl and Rich. I'm glad Ennis's father was dead because it's horrible to think what he would have done had he known about Ennis and Jack. I don't know if Ennis would have defended himself, but like you, I'd like to think he would have stood up and done so.

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: was ennis autistic?
« Reply #55 on: Sep 05, 2009, 12:36 AM »
 "s;" Looks to me, athena, we are on the same wavelength.

Thanks for sharing your insight into Jack.   :^^) ^f^ I've always had difficulty seeing Jack clearing, perhaps because I am so drawn to Ennis.  ::)
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

athena0204

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Re: was ennis autistic?
« Reply #56 on: Sep 05, 2009, 11:06 PM »
"s;" Looks to me, athena, we are on the same wavelength.

Thanks for sharing your insight into Jack.   :^^) ^f^ I've always had difficulty seeing Jack clearing, perhaps because I am so drawn to Ennis.  ::)

Thanks.  :c)

That scene with Jack stroking Ennis's cheek speaks so much. From the first time I saw the movie, I noticed how touching that scene is. He reaches out and comforts Ennis, and his voice is one of such love and understanding and concern for Ennis, because he understands how hurt Ennis is. Jack knew and understood. Of course he was willing to fight for love, and not care about what people think and society's ignorance and hate, but he also understood why Ennis was so afraid, and Jack's response to that was always to comfort Ennis and to hold him in his arms as well as his heart.

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: was ennis autistic?
« Reply #57 on: Sep 07, 2009, 11:11 AM »
Thanks.  :c)

That scene with Jack stroking Ennis's cheek speaks so much. From the first time I saw the movie, I noticed how touching that scene is. He reaches out and comforts Ennis, and his voice is one of such love and understanding and concern for Ennis, because he understands how hurt Ennis is. Jack knew and understood. Of course he was willing to fight for love, and not care about what people think and society's ignorance and hate, but he also understood why Ennis was so afraid, and Jack's response to that was always to comfort Ennis and to hold him in his arms as well as his heart.

Again,beautifully put,Athena¡  :clap: ^f^ Yes,Jack was a fighter,but he knew always how and when "stop" in his wishes and understand how terrified Ennis was.This is called "LOVE" in capital letters.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline tpe

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Re: was ennis autistic?
« Reply #58 on: Sep 08, 2009, 07:23 AM »
I don't know at what age psychologists think a person is conscious of one's sexual preferences;but what it's true is that any traumatic experience,more or less in rapport with sex,in an early age lets an indelible mark in this person's mind and soul.I agree in that it's unconscious this mark and the attraction that any forbidden question lets in a young mind.But I have always thought that Earl and Rich's tragedy made Ennis feel a repulsion but at the same time an attraction to what deserved so hard punishment.It's something that happens all the time with persons who has been educated in a very narrow minded and sin feared environment,for example.

I think so too.  I feel that it was a mixture of horror, revulsion, and "attraction" as you call it.  Perhaps some form of identification was made unconsciously, at this stage?


Offline tpe

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Re: was ennis autistic?
« Reply #59 on: Sep 08, 2009, 07:25 AM »
Whether it is associated with sexual identity consciously or unconsciously, is best left to stodgy academics. All I have is the look on young Ennis face in the movie to go by, and the terror inflicted speaks volume. It is the terror that is the source of homophobia. You don't need to be gay or have gay feelings to be terrorized by brutality. No matter what Ennis' sexual identity was at nine (and that is questionable) the key was that he was terrified. We can dance around and speculate all we want, but it is terror, not sexual feelings, that shaped Ennis at that moment.

But do you think that there was some form of "identification" at work here?  I do.  But I am sure that this feeling is not shared by many.