Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: Jack_ME on Feb 18, 2006, 02:50 PM
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Jack: Anything interesting up there in heaven?
Ennis: I was just sending up a prayer of thanks.
Jack: For what?
Ennis: For you forgettin to bring that harmonica. I'm enjoyin the peace and quiet.
I haven't seen this discussed anywhere (or can't find it if it has):
Everytime I watch this scene where Jack asks:Anything interesting up there in heaven?
and then Ennis replies: I was just sending up a prayer of thanks.
I believe that Ennis was very happy, but serious, and had Jack responded with a knowing agreement, Ennis would have said what he really was thanking Heaven for........namely being there with Jack again after 4 long years of separation, and no doubt believing during those 4 years that he would never see Jack again, let alone be with him again at their special place.
I feel it is Jack's responding with a (ignorant of what Ennis is truly thankful for) cavelier: For what?
(like he did with his offer of money, when Ennis was actually expressing his great disappointment about leaving Jack and the Summer of Brokeback in the only way he (Ennis) could at that time, namely by saying they were getting short-changed a month of pay. That response that Summer, sent Ennis off to first sit on a stump and beat a stick against the ground, then go off and sit and pout on the hillside. Jack didn't get Ennis's attempt to express his anger and disappointment at being forced to change their happy loving environment, and instead he (Jack) just took what Ennis said litterally and missed the true meaning of Ennis's communication.)
And so again this time at the fireside reunion Brokeback, Jack misses what Ennis is really expressing. But since Ennis is so happy likely with a week being together still ahead of them, he is able to deflect his true thoughts and true prayer of thanks into a little joke, since Jack had been oblivious to what should have been so obvious after Ennis said he was sending a prayer of thanks.
From the first viewing of the film this is what I heard. When Jack responds with his: For What? I couldn't believe it! It really seemed so obvious to me that Ennis was thanking Heaven for allowing them to be together again. But Jack missed it, so Ennis lets it be light and makes a joke.
And because of that Ennis is again grounded in the present and separated from his moment of feeling, so that when after that, Jack does seem to get it and says: You know, it could be like this. Just like this, always
Ennis says: Yeah? How you figure that?
And then we are led into the horrible trauma memory.
If (this were another movie!) Jack had responded to Ennis's opening up of his feelings, Ennis then might have been able to communicate his fears in a different way, one which may have allowed Jack to suggest that there could be some possibilities, while still recognizing Ennis's fear.
Did anyone else feel the point of that scene was missed by Jack? And by us in focusing on the joke about the harmonica?
Jack in Maine
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I think Jack "got" the prayer of thanks bit, cause he launches right into "it could be like this..."
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I would allow Jack to have feelings, insecurities, desires to be loved and fears that his love and desire are not reciprocated. Reading what you wrote, Jack_ME, makes me wonder why Ennis has to be so artfully interpreted and his inability to articulate what he means or wants directly (but doing so indirectly--I agree with you here) so easily made Jack's problem...why Ennis, trauma victim though he certainly is, is so poorly served by Jack in these instances.
Aren't there two people here working something out, or not working it out very well? Like Jack doesn't have a history of trauma (brought out big-time in the story, with his father pissing all over him when he was a kid) as well as Ennis? This reminds me of the expectation that women reaching for better communication with male partners afraid of soft feelings often get abused in some way and blamed by the abuser for the abuse. What's up with this?
I love Ennis, his masked tenderness, his struggle with fear, his holding on to what he can because he knows no other way. It is a beautiful rendition of how a human heart can still flood with love even if cramped by life. It's too easy to hold Jack responsible for not healing Ennis by reading him correctly and offering him corrective experiences to overcome trauma. He most surely is not responsible in this way. When he offered money, it might also be seen as a way of making a connection, as a way of saying "It's all right, you don't have to face this alone, I'll help." When he asked "For what?", it might also be seen as a way of drawing Ennis out, of giving him a chance to open up. Calling the question and the manner of asking it cavalier automatically dismisses any positive intent.
Can both be struggling humans?
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I would allow Jack to have feelings, insecurities, desires to be loved and fears that his love and desire are not reciprocated. Reading what you wrote, Jack_ME, makes me wonder why Ennis has to be so artfully interpreted and his inability to articulate what he means or wants directly (but doing so indirectly--I agree with you here) so easily made Jack's problem...why Ennis, trauma victim though he certainly is, is so poorly served by Jack in these instances.
Aren't there two people here working something out, or not working it out very well? Like Jack doesn't have a history of trauma (brought out big-time in the story, with his father pissing all over him when he was a kid) as well as Ennis? This reminds me of the expectation that women reaching for better communication with male partners afraid of soft feelings often get abused in some way and blamed by the abuser for the abuse. What's up with this?
I love Ennis, his masked tenderness, his struggle with fear, his holding on to what he can because he knows no other way. It is a beautiful rendition of how a human heart can still flood with love even if cramped by life. It's too easy to hold Jack responsible for not healing Ennis by reading him correctly and offering him corrective experiences to overcome trauma. He most surely is not responsible in this way. When he offered money, it might also be seen as a way of making a connection, as a way of saying "It's all right, you don't have to face this alone, I'll help." When he asked "For what?", it might also be seen as a way of drawing Ennis out, of giving him a chance to open up. Calling the question and the manner of asking it cavalier automatically dismisses any positive intent.
Can both be struggling humans?
Thanks jrfh50 for this posting, I share your point of view.
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I'm also struck by our expectations that Jack is supposed to be so skillful in reading Ennis's thoughts. In asking what Ennis was thankful for, maybe he was just expressing his need to hear Ennis say it out loud, to make sure he wasn't misinterpreting him. My partner and I founded our relationship on communication as an absolutely essential requirement, and I know I chose him not least because we were able to quickly "cut to the chase", and come to resolution on issues or feelings where we weren't in total agreement. But even after 9 years of living together, it is still necessary to check in once in a while, or ask for clarification, even though we often can finish each other's sentences. So I think it is entirely unrealistic to expect Jack to be able to "read" Ennis this perfectly after the short period of time they had actually had to be together. Love can conquer all, but it does take work-trite I know but nevertheless true.
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If (this were another movie!) Jack had responded to Ennis's opening up of his feelings, Ennis then might have been able to communicate his fears in a different way, one which may have allowed Jack to suggest that there could be some possibilities, while still recognizing Ennis's fear.
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"They were raised on small, poor ranches on opposite corners of the state...both high school dropout country boys with no prospects, brought up to hard work and privation, both rough-mannered, rough-spoken, inured to the stoic life." --Brokeback Mountain, Annie Proulx
It says it all there. Jack has no greater handle on articulating and processing his love of Ennis. Sure, Ennis is more shut down, fearful, closed like a clam. Jack is more passionate, braver, willing to risk. But each character is groping here. Each is beautifully flawed and wonderfully representative of so many people.
What is beautiful and terribly tragic is that these two characters are just beginning to open the door to love, to the greater risks that real love requires and the grace it affords. They get close but never make it. Society hadn't given them the venue, path or language to get there, to find it, but here they are, groping for intimacy and understanding in the dark on a cold mountainside. They are explorers, then, with the deck stacked against them.
As hard as it is to accept, I know any other depiction of what happened would hurt the story. We want them to be together, to wake up, to endure. But they cannot. It just wouldn't work, given the time and place and the two men's stories. We ache because we see the real tragedy in not recognizing earlier that all beings want happiness and love...acceptance. The culture and parents, the men themselves...they are shut off from one another, little islands, some unaware that they desperately want to realize the undeniable interconnection of all things.
Ennis is happy in that scene and sends up a prayer of thanks. It's the best he can do. And Jack is at his best when he tries to convince himself that it could always be like this. They are pioneers in the risky game of love. We're talking on the level of Romeo and Juliet here.
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We ache because we see the real tragedy in not recognizing earlier that all beings want happiness and love...acceptance. wow that is profound to me. that is all I EVER wanted-and then would push it away. still do--i am 58 time is a ticking. i had a tortured childhood emotionally. stayed with me-got past a lot-but hope before I die I accomplish the above.
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We ache because we see the real tragedy in not recognizing earlier that all beings want happiness and love...acceptance. wow that is profound to me. that is all I EVER wanted-and then would push it away. still do--i am 58 time is a ticking. i had a tortured childhood emotionally. stayed with me-got past a lot-but hope before I die I accomplish the above.
*huggs Karind1*
so true, sister, so true.
And throught all this, I think it the tough times help us recognize and appreciate works of art like BBM.. it touches something...
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So far I've read some interesting commentary on this topic. I hope my point of view doesn't appear short-sighted...
If Jack actually missed an opportunity to understand Ennis's true feelings during these noted scenes, it does not surprise me. We are looking at two male characters who grew up during a time period when men where perhaps not as skilled in communicating with others as they are becoming now. It wasn't uncommon for men to take a remark or gesture at face value.
In hetero relationships women were (and still are) often frustrated because men were not able to look beyond the surface and understand what they were really feeling. The fact that our two characters are men wouldn't make that level of communication any simpler. Ennis and Jack never spent the necessary time together needed to nurture a level of communication where they could really be in touch with the other's feelings.
If the setting for this type of film took place after the mid-eighties, I would probably expect a more sensitive level of communication between two lovers. Since this all began in 1963, I have a hard time expecting more.
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I think Jack "got" the prayer of thanks bit, cause he launches right into "it could be like this..."
Toadlily,
I acknowledged that Jack got the meaning, but it was not immediate, he only got it on a second take after the joke about the harmonica. The point I was trying to bring out, is that very rarely, unless it is anger (and violent anger) does Ennis express his feelings as he is experiencing them, and to me this incident was one of two points where Ennis DID attempt to express his feelings...but still in guarded ways. And what I was saying, in the vein of speculative discussion as we have all done so much of regarding these two guys's personalities, is that both times Jack missed the opportunity by focusing instead on the literal words and not the idea/feelings behind the words.
After all, communication IS ideas, words are only the tools we use to get our idea out of our head and into someone else's where they can understand it.
I'm not saying Jack was wrong....after all HE is who he is as Ennis is who HE is....I'm just trying to bring out that we have a character, a personality who has trouble expressing his feelings, and there were these two points where he did express his feelings, albeit, in the first it was through the symbol of being short changed money, when he really was being short changed time that he had expected to spend with Jack
So my point was, how could it have been different for the two within their relationship, if on that first occasion Jack had understood, and empathized about the short change of TIME together, and on the second, if he had again IMMEDIATELY empathized about being thankful for finding each other again.
Could not the first incident have led to making some form of plan to meet up again, and a more tender parting, instead of a fist fight and awkward mumbling parting which left Jack crying as he drove away, and Ennis smashing his fist into a cement wall.
And on this second occasion, at the first reunion, had Jack immediately responded and empathized with a corroborative "thank Heaven from me too" or "isn't it great we could find each other" or some other immediate acknowledgment of Ennis's feelings AT THAT MOMENT when Ennis expressed them, possibly Ennis might have opened up a bit more, possibly he and Jack might have had more real communication at that moment. So that, as I said in my first post, the trauma memory of his youth might have been able to be slightly countered by possibility or the hope of possibility of some other type of future. To me, once the little moment passed, Ennis immediately retreated to his usual place of not expressing himself, by him making the joke, then he was back into that armored place he knew so well, and so when the idea of a future together comes up, it's out of the question because he's closed up tight again into his protected place, and he's just reporting that it's a fact that they two will never live together because he knows what will happen. NO possibility of it EVER being any different. I'm suggesting that if Jack had heard and responded immediately to Ennis's little opening up of his true feelings, Ennis might have been able to hear a little that there could be some possibility somehow someway, where a life together wouldn't HAVE to end up as he believed it would, based on his childhood trauma.
This is all just my speculation on the personalities, but I do think that these two incidents are there in the movie as examples of some little time when Ennis tried to express his true feelings, as he was experiencing them, and which was NOT anger which he had no trouble expressing as he experienced it.
Jack in Maine
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Great discussion, thanks. I am moving this topic to "Characters, Quotes and Scenes"
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I would allow Jack to have feelings, insecurities, desires to be loved and fears that his love and desire are not reciprocated. Reading what you wrote, Jack_ME, makes me wonder why Ennis has to be so artfully interpreted and his inability to articulate what he means or wants directly (but doing so indirectly--I agree with you here) so easily made Jack's problem...why Ennis, trauma victim though he certainly is, is so poorly served by Jack in these instances.
Aren't there two people here working something out, or not working it out very well? Like Jack doesn't have a history of trauma (brought out big-time in the story, with his father pissing all over him when he was a kid) as well as Ennis? This reminds me of the expectation that women reaching for better communication with male partners afraid of soft feelings often get abused in some way and blamed by the abuser for the abuse. What's up with this?
I love Ennis, his masked tenderness, his struggle with fear, his holding on to what he can because he knows no other way. It is a beautiful rendition of how a human heart can still flood with love even if cramped by life. It's too easy to hold Jack responsible for not healing Ennis by reading him correctly and offering him corrective experiences to overcome trauma. He most surely is not responsible in this way. When he offered money, it might also be seen as a way of making a connection, as a way of saying "It's all right, you don't have to face this alone, I'll help." When he asked "For what?", it might also be seen as a way of drawing Ennis out, of giving him a chance to open up. Calling the question and the manner of asking it cavalier automatically dismisses any positive intent.
Can both be struggling humans?
jr, of course they are both struggling humans. And in no way do I intend that Jack was wrong..Jack was Jack. My point was an attempt to say that here was a moment when Ennis opened up his true feelings, and HAD Jack been more in sync with Ennis at that moment, how could that have made things different. From my point of view as a film watcher, it was obvious to me what Ennis's prayer thanking heaven was really for. So since I got it as a film watcher, Jack's response "For what?" was cavalier. As I recall it, that simple question was not asked in a soft entreating tone, which might indicate he was inviting Ennis to open up and say more, but rather in a quick and abrupt manner even with a slightly sarcastic overtone. "For WHAT???" What you say is true of course. it is never anyone's responsibility to do the work of the other in communication, and if I say one thing, and you hear another, it is not my fault, any more than it is yours that we haven't communicated. But if I know, and you know, that we sometimes have trouble with the words we each choose when we attempt to communicate, then wouldn't we each try to consider those words a little more carefully? Picking words, or describing words, a little more fully in an attempt to be clearer to the other so that we might actually get our ideas across? I think we would.
So all I'm saying is the two men weren't speaking the same language at these two moments. One was expressing feelings, and the other was hearing words. No one's fault no one's responsibility. Just a "what if" Jack had heard the feelings, and not the words only. I could as easily say, what if Ennis had said out right what he felt instead of retreating to a joke about the harmonica. I'm sure if he had, then Jack would have responded to that, but Ennis's personality isn't capable of expressing his feelings. And Jack in these instances wasn't being very intuitive. No fault, just fact.
Jack in Maine
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I'm also struck by our expectations that Jack is supposed to be so skillful in reading Ennis's thoughts. In asking what Ennis was thankful for, maybe he was just expressing his need to hear Ennis say it out loud, to make sure he wasn't misinterpreting him. My partner and I founded our relationship on communication as an absolutely essential requirement, and I know I chose him not least because we were able to quickly "cut to the chase", and come to resolution on issues or feelings where we weren't in total agreement. But even after 9 years of living together, it is still necessary to check in once in a while, or ask for clarification, even though we often can finish each other's sentences. So I think it is entirely unrealistic to expect Jack to be able to "read" Ennis this perfectly after the short period of time they had actually had to be together. Love can conquer all, but it does take work-trite I know but nevertheless true.
proulxfan,
I don't mean to imply that Jack is supposed to read Ennis's thoughts let alone be skillful at it. I am just observing the situation, and stating that I believe this was one of the very rare moments when Ennis actually was expressing his feelings.
As for asking what ifs about Jack's behavior, prior to this scene they have spent some time together, specifically in the motel (as well as at breakfast and on the ride up...and they DID have that first Brokeback Summer together in their past), and in that motel scene Jack is very open about expressing his feelings, and he asks Ennis how he feels...and Ennis grunts a couple times and says the word Me? and that's it.
I think that for someone who could more easily express his feelings as Jack did, and presumably can do again , it's not unreasonable to say that Jack knew that Ennis didn't/couldn't express his own feelings in clear obvious words. I think being able to express one's feelings automatically makes one more aware OF feelings, and so much better equipped to read the coded ways in which an other who can NOT so easily express himself in words, does still sometime attempt to express his feelings in other ways.
This still doesn't mean I feel Jack had any RESPONSIBILITY to do that, or that he was wrong for not doing it. As I said, Jack is who Jack is, and Ennis is who Ennis is, but I say, what if...........how could that then.....maybe....might have.....etc.
Jack in Maine
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So all I'm saying is the two men weren't speaking the same language at these two moments. One was expressing feelings, and the other was hearing words. No one's fault no one's responsibility. Just a "what if" Jack had heard the feelings, and not the words only. I could as easily say, what if Ennis had said out right what he felt instead of retreating to a joke about the harmonica. I'm sure if he had, then Jack would have responded to that, but Ennis's personality isn't capable of expressing his feelings. And Jack in these instances wasn't being very intuitive. No fault, just fact.
Jack in Maine
Jack your point these points in the film, taken completely as isolated incidents, is spot on. I urge you to view the film (disregarding any text, as your philosophy indicates) and find a number of incidents when the feeling tone and nuance of Jack, the openness of his face and body, etc. are not taken in or responded to by Ennis, merely the words. Tell me then, please, at those points, that the ensuing situation might have been radically different had Ennis at those precise moments responded to and with feelings. And then, please, explain to me why even a person with trauma couldn't have taken the leap, as others on the Board have held out for Ennis to do, and risked intimacy. I think it's important not to give this construct 'trauma' such power over interactive potential.
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Jack your point these points in the film, taken completely as isolated incidents, is spot on. I urge you to view the film (disregarding any text, as your philosophy indicates) and find a number of incidents when the feeling tone and nuance of Jack, the openness of his face and body, etc. are not taken in or responded to by Ennis, merely the words. Tell me then, please, at those points, that the ensuing situation might have been radically different had Ennis at those precise moments responded to and with feelings. And then, please, explain to me why even a person with trauma couldn't have taken the leap, as others on the Board have held out for Ennis to do, and risked intimacy. I think it's important not to give this construct trauma such power over interactive potential.
jr, I appreciate your response, thanks.
I surely will enjoy the film again (next scheduled for this Friday), and will make an attempt of focus on Jack and look for these incidents as you request.
But before even doing that I guess I should state that in my view (and it's certainly not a unique viewpoint, in fact I would venture to say it's the majority viewpoint of BBM lovers)....as I say, in my view we have two people with differing personality types.
One, Ennis, is very very introverted and quite incapable of expressing into words any of his emotions, other than anger, which he can do, and does do rather frequently. He can and does do that because anger is aggressive and so it feels like it does not make one vulnerable, especially as Ennis displays it which is usually with physical violence explicit or implicit. Ennis is closed and defensive and protective of his deep inner self. This is a result of the loss and loneliness he has experienced, which his personality was not able to overcome, only compensate for through the defensive creation of internal walls against more hurt from loss and loneliness. If he doesn't open up his feelings and make himself vulnerable, he can't be hurt again (or so this type believes, while not realizing that this posture also deprives them of many positive opportunities wherein he might feel connected, and loved, and benefit from all the positive nurturing results of that.)
The other type, Jack, is extroverted. Although he feels loneliness in his life too, he can more easily put himself in situations with others, in an attempt to alleviate that loneliness. And he is also more capable and comfortable opening up and expressing his emotions, and he does that in many ways, not just in a single restricted way like Ennis does. So he is already familiar, and comfortable with the language of emotion. He can do it, and so he can understand it, and he can hear it from others. It's not a foreign language to him, whereas to Ennis it is a foreign language.
So, if two people who speak different languages are attempting to communicate, they need to find some common points to begin and build on. It does no good for each to sit stock still and simply repeat over and over the same foregin words. They gesture, they indicate, they search for similar words, or variations on the words. And they listen to the other's response and from that they can recognize if some word or part of word has gotten over and been understood. Say in this example, one person speaks French fluently, and knows a tiny smattering of German words as well. If he's trying to communicate to a German who knows no French at all, even though it is French he is fluent in, if he is truly attempting to communicate, he will use his limited German vocabulary to try to build a common base for gradually increased understanding between the two. In this case, if he truly wishes to communicate, it is this fellow's responsibility to utilize what he already knows.
So using that example above as an analogy, Jack understands and can express emotions more easily than Ennis can. Therefore, it falls to Jack to utilize that knowledge he has of emotional expression, and watch for it and respond to it when he sees it, because he can! Of course there is no right or wrong here. All I'm saying is that when one person is closed up, and the other is not, it naturally falls on the one who is open to encourage and draw out the other closed up person, IF communication is the goal. If the situation were reversed for some reason and under different circumstances, and the point was to try to get the more expressive one to learn to be less expressive, say to learn to recognize that it was not always appropriate or the right time to express his feelings, then the reverse would be true and the one who understood that would have a responsibility to teach/convey that to the other.
In this case, we know Jack can and has expressed his feelings about the relationship. From the motel scene and what he says there. Here in this scene we have Ennis opening up. IF Jack had picked up on it immediately, by affirming Ennis's expression of his feelings, Ennis might have left the door open a crack for more input, at that moment. If Ennis was to go into therapy, then his therapist could instruct him over time, etc, but in the real world, JUST THE FACT that he opened a bit by verbalizing that he was offering up a prayer of thanks, is a risky behavior for one so guarded. He stuck a toe out, and had Jack been there immediately and held the door open, Ennis might have stuck a foot out! But not getting that immediate recognition from Jack, Ennis pulled his toe in and closed the door quickly.
And no blame or fault to either. Just a potential that was missed. Really all this chat of mine was simply to try to put out there that Ennis did open up twice, but Jack didn't recognize that in time to encourage more. I really wanted to get the point across that by focusing on the "joke", we may have missed that Ennis had attempted to express his real inner feelings, however fleetingly.
I love Ennis and I love Jack. This is a marvelously wonderful movie. A true masterpiece. How else could we all speak of these characters with such depth and such intricacies as if they were the living breathing beings they are to so many, if not all, of us.
Jack in Maine
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This is kind of off the debate. But when Ennis makes this little joke about the harmonica, did anyone notice the twinkle in Ennis's eyes? It reminded me of a gum commercial that is supposed to leave your mouth minty fresh and the mouth actually twinkles. This is what I see in Ennis's eyes. It's priceless.
Actually with all that repression I am surprised at how much Ennis opens up to Jack. It just emphasizes the depth of his love. It is Ennis who approaches Jack in the second tent scene, Ennis who walks up to Jack to discuss their relationship, "a one shot deal", Ennis who admits he felt violently ill and took a year for him to realize he should have never let Jack go, Ennis who passionately kisses Jack in plain sight at their first rerunion, Ennis who asks about the effect of their relationship on other relationships, Ennis who devulges his feelings of paranoia about being gay.
Sure, Jack was the one who had the idealistic views of life together, but I felt that Ennis discussed other feelings he had more readily. It made me proud of him. - Nancy
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Actually with all that repression I am surprised at how much Ennis opens up to Jack. It just emphasizes the depth of his love. It is Ennis who approaches Jack in the second tent scene, Ennis who walks up to Jack to discuss their relationship, "a one shot deal", Ennis who admits he felt violently ill and took a year for him to realize he should have never let Jack go, Ennis who passionately kisses Jack in plain sight at their first rerunion, Ennis who asks about the effect of their relationship on other relationships, Ennis who devulges his feelings of paranoia about being gay.
Sure, Jack was the one who had the idealistic views of life together, but I felt that Ennis discussed other feelings he had more readily. It made me proud of him. - Nancy
These are great points--I love this thread. And I can't help wondering, after reading everyone's responses: maybe Jack just really wanted to hear Ennis acknowledge his love out loud when they're camping out at their first reunion? Maybe he really understood/knew what Ennis was referring to all along, but wanted more than anything just to hear it. After all, Ennis had been unable to tell him directly why he was sitting alone on the hillside instead of helping to pack up gear just before they went down the mountain that first summer--now Jack wanted to hear him state his love and pain.
peace--
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I felt that when Jack said, "For what?" when Ennis was looking up at the heavens, that he wanted desperately for Ennis to confess his love. Although Ennis's response was adorable, I don't think it was what Jack was looking for.
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I felt that when Jack said, "For what?" when Ennis was looking up at the heavens, that he wanted desperately for Ennis to confess his love. Although Ennis's response was adorable, I don't think it was what Jack was looking for.
yep... :-[
Adorable, yet not enough x
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I felt that when Jack said, "For what?" when Ennis was looking up at the heavens, that he wanted desperately for Ennis to confess his love. Although Ennis's response was adorable, I don't think it was what Jack was looking for.
yep... :-[
Adorable, yet not enough x
Agreed. Somehow some of us men miss the moment.
Later it hits like, "Oh, sh**t! I shoulda said, 'I'm sending up a prayer of thanks that you called, that you walked back into my life. That we even crossed paths in the first place. You've changed my life!'"
What Ennis has taught me is to be more forthright in sharing my feelings, to move forward and not fear the risk of intimacy. It's so incredible to me that a man who doesn't even exist has had such a powerful influence on me!
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I'm with you. Hopefully we have all learned something from this.
You mean he doesn't exist? You just blew me out of the water!!!!!!!!!! Ha! Ha!
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I felt that when Jack said, "For what?" when Ennis was looking up at the heavens, that he wanted desperately for Ennis to confess his love. Although Ennis's response was adorable, I don't think it was what Jack was looking for.
I think this is true of both of them. When I see this scene, I always think that Ennis is so so soooo happy to be with Jack...he's sending up thanks for bringing Jack back to him. But when the moment comes, when Jack asks "for what?" Ennis can't say it out loud to him, it would be too soul-baring and vulnerable to tell Jack exactly how he's feeling... so instead he makes a joke of it.
Jack wants to hear it... Ennis wants to say it... both of them disappointed... BUT, having said that, I also think Jack "gets it" -- I think on some level he knows that Ennis is making a joke to cover his true feelings.
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I think he gets it too, because doesn't he follow it up with a suggestion of a future together or telling Ennis how much he misses him?
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Another thread that I reckon bears dragging back up for the benefit of us newbies on the forum.
I've finally seen this whole scene again on youtube and I think there's a lot of merit in all the views expressed here. When Jack asks "For what?" there's definitely a hopeful tone to his voice, a real desire for Ennis to say something - anything - that will confirm the feelings that Jack already knows are there. But then, Ennis is Ennis and he just can't say the words, no matter how much he wants to so he jokes instead. There's a twinkle in his eye when he makes the joke, though, and there's no doubt that Jack would have picked up on that and known what Ennis really meant, especially as he goes straight into the "You know it could be like this.." speech.
You really have to admire Jack's persistance in trying to get Ennis to tell him how he feels - he never really gives up, throughout their years together. Ennis is never afraid to show his love physically, and I'm sure that Jack always knew how to read the looks and mumblings, but it would have been nice if Ennis had said it - even once. The closest he ever comes is with "Jack, I swear..." but that's another discussion.
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Ennis is never afraid to show his love physically, and I'm sure that Jack always knew how to read the looks and mumblings, but it would have been nice if Ennis had said it - even once. The closest he ever comes is with "Jack, I swear..." but that's another discussion.
Yeah, didn't he say it... And wasn't it like - shocking. It seemed like it poured out of him, all the things in that "Jack, I swear..." he never wanted to say. But it was just too late.
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Jack: Anything interesting up there in heaven?
Ennis: I was just sending up a prayer of thanks.
Jack: For what?
Ennis: For you forgettin to bring that harmonica. I'm enjoyin the peace and quiet.
I haven't seen this discussed anywhere (or can't find it if it has):
Everytime I watch this scene where Jack asks:Anything interesting up there in heaven?
and then Ennis replies: I was just sending up a prayer of thanks.
I believe that Ennis was very happy, but serious, and had Jack responded with a knowing agreement, Ennis would have said what he really was thanking Heaven for........namely being there with Jack again after 4 long years of separation, and no doubt believing during those 4 years that he would never see Jack again, let alone be with him again at their special place.
I feel it is Jack's responding with a (ignorant of what Ennis is truly thankful for) cavelier: For what?
(like he did with his offer of money, when Ennis was actually expressing his great disappointment about leaving Jack and the Summer of Brokeback in the only way he (Ennis) could at that time, namely by saying they were getting short-changed a month of pay. That response that Summer, sent Ennis off to first sit on a stump and beat a stick against the ground, then go off and sit and pout on the hillside. Jack didn't get Ennis's attempt to express his anger and disappointment at being forced to change their happy loving environment, and instead he (Jack) just took what Ennis said litterally and missed the true meaning of Ennis's communication.)
And so again this time at the fireside reunion Brokeback, Jack misses what Ennis is really expressing. But since Ennis is so happy likely with a week being together still ahead of them, he is able to deflect his true thoughts and true prayer of thanks into a little joke, since Jack had been oblivious to what should have been so obvious after Ennis said he was sending a prayer of thanks.
From the first viewing of the film this is what I heard. When Jack responds with his: For What? I couldn't believe it! It really seemed so obvious to me that Ennis was thanking Heaven for allowing them to be together again. But Jack missed it, so Ennis lets it be light and makes a joke.
And because of that Ennis is again grounded in the present and separated from his moment of feeling, so that when after that, Jack does seem to get it and says: You know, it could be like this. Just like this, always
Ennis says: Yeah? How you figure that?
And then we are led into the horrible trauma memory.
If (this were another movie!) Jack had responded to Ennis's opening up of his feelings, Ennis then might have been able to communicate his fears in a different way, one which may have allowed Jack to suggest that there could be some possibilities, while still recognizing Ennis's fear.
Did anyone else feel the point of that scene was missed by Jack? And by us in focusing on the joke about the harmonica?
Jack in Maine
Jack -- very strongly I felt that, each viewing. We knew what Ennis was really thankful for, but couldn't say it -- difficult as it is to express himself -- without Jack's having given him more of a clear opening. Then, the tables get turned, as you said -- very perceptive. When Jack expresses a beautiful togetherness sentiment, Ennis then makes it all depressing. And by the way, that smile on Ennis's face as he's lying there, after he says that, is the most beautiful Ennis face -- it just stops my heart. (Not the smile when Jack's clowning around like he's rodeoing; this one is like the most pure happiness we ever see in him. But then, we don't see him when they're making love...
ks
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Jack -- very strongly I felt that, each viewing. We knew what Ennis was really thankful for, but couldn't say it -- difficult as it is to express himself -- without Jack's having given him more of a clear opening. Then, the tables get turned, as you said -- very perceptive. When Jack expresses a beautiful togetherness sentiment, Ennis then makes it all depressing. And by the way, that smile on Ennis's face as he's lying there, after he says that, is the most beautiful Ennis face -- it just stops my heart. (Not the smile when Jack's clowning around like he's rodeoing; this one is like the most pure happiness we ever see in him. But then, we don't see him when they're making love...
ks
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Yeah "ks" it is a beautiful happy expression.
And like their whole relationship, it's too short, too quickly gone.
When I first saw that scene in the film, I really did feel I knew what Ennis was thankful for, and I actually expected his statement to get picked up right away by Jack, and I expected a real tender scene, a positive scene expressing their relationship or their feelings one for the other. As a film, that would have been the more predictable segue, and part of what has made this film so powerful, is Ang Lee's direction and editing, so that, most scenes are cut short, and there is little in the way of predictable customary film vocabulary. This is not a criticism of the film at all. It's a great film. Just emotionally speaking, at that point in the film, in my first viewing, that is what other film's had taught me to expect next and I was looking forward to it. I suppose my surprise and disappointment is what made me so analytical about that little exchange between the two.
Thanks for commenting "ks" and providing me another opportunity to think and express.
Jack in Maine
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Once again, so much more than meets the eye! Wow. This has been a very interesting thread to read, because honestly, all the times I've seen BBM it had never even occured to me that maybe this was a missed opportunity for a deeper, verbal exchange of what they were feeling. Or that maybe this time it might have been Ennis who wanted to say more, if the groundwork had been laid right by Jack. Will have to look for that next time, see if I get a change of perspective.
It's very true that this is one of those few moments that WE are given to maybe witness them speaking of their feelings. As you've all noted, there are other missed chances before or after this, but since this was also one of the few points where they could have changed the course of their lives, it does really stand out. And it hurts us because that doesn't happen. As Jack_ME says, we're left with "what if ..", "maybe ... " "might have... " "sigh".
I guess for the moment, personally, I too think that Jack is very much aware of what is really going on in Ennis's mind. He opens up the opportunity for conversation by asking Ennis if there is anything interesting up there in heaven. And even though Ennis makes it into an inside joke (they were always kidding about that harmonic on Brokeback, so sweet) Jack surely knew what that answer was really covering up.
"for you forgetting to bring that harmonica" translates to "for you being here".
And on a lighter note, (it's not my intention to offend anyone here joking about this important scene but ...) when Jack says "you know it can be like this, just like this, always" we all know he's talking about them being together, not that they will always be "harmonica free". :) :) Although, maybe Ennis is hoping for that, too. ;)
You know, I just realized, these boys make it interesting for us because even when they are talking, we still wonder about what they are really saying .
I was right there with you, Jack_ME, that first time I saw BBM, 'cause I was waiting for the guys to actually SAY more about their feelings for each other in this scene, not just with looks, touches, body language. But being who they were, I guess I can admit now that I had an unreasonable expectation, based on MY needs. Didn't stop me from being disaapointed, though.
Sorry to ramble on .. looking forward to reading more about how the rest of you feel about the possibilities in this scene. Great posts!
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You know, I just realized, these boys make it interesting for us because even when they are talking, we still wonder about what they are really saying .
This is just too close to the heart of it all.
And as you said, the beauty of this scene is that it can be interpreted in many levels -- light and deep.
Thank you.
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...snip...I guess for the moment, personally, I too think that Jack is very much aware of what is really going on in Ennis's mind. He opens up the opportunity for conversation by asking Ennis if there is anything interesting up there in heaven. And even though Ennis makes it into an inside joke (they were always kidding about that harmonic on Brokeback, so sweet) Jack surely knew what that answer was really covering up.
"for you forgetting to bring that harmonica" translates to "for you being here".
....snip....when Jack says "you know it can be like this, just like this, always" we all know he's talking about them being together, not that they will always be "harmonica free". :) :) Although, maybe Ennis is hoping for that, too. ;)
...snip...
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Hi red! Thanks for your input.
Just to clarify, as some seem to have responded as if I were and I'm not at all trying to fault Jack, meaning I'm not trying to say he did something wrong 'cuz after all, he just did what he did. That's part of his character which is also the sub-text of my comments. I'm just focusing on the "what if...." based on what I saw as a missed opportunity when on one of the rare occasions Ennis had started to open up and express his feelings verbally. You here, and others before, use what happens AFTERWARD, to explain and interpret what happened first. Just for the sake of this discussion, I'm making a point which some might see as simply playing with words, but that's not what I'm intending to do.
Compare Jack's personality, his reaction, in this scene FROM THE FIRST OF IT, (Ennis staring up, Jack says....Ennis says...offering prayer of thanks...) to the short scene when Jack was the one up on the mountain tending the sheep, and he spied and shot at the coyote. If you recall that coyote scene, what you see is a guy who spies a coyote and instantly brings his rifle up and practically pulls the trigger before the gun has even stopped moving....and in fact, if he thought he was aiming, he didn't do a very good job, because not only did he not kill the coyote, he didn't even hit it. Missed by a mile, because his impulse was to act instantly, not carefully take aim, get a bead on the animal, and gently squeeze the trigger and kill it. Now think of Ennis when he shot the elk. Very slow, very deliberate, careful aim, no rush, and bullseye! Down comes the elk.
Now think of the campfire scene again and compare their respective behaviors.
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that once Jack "missed the coyote" i.e. said "For what?"......he then realized what Ennis had really been saying, and so THEN after that realization (after he had "missed the coyote") tried to pick up on Ennis's original mood and thought. But it was too late. As so often in the film (think of the post Alma divorce), Jack reacts quickly and impulsively. And sometimes, he misses his mark because of that.
This is part of Jack's personality, and is one of the ways in which the two boys differ.
It's so wonderful to able to examine and dissect these screen characters to such a degree. I can't think of very many other films (off the top of my head none!) where the characters had such fully developed personalities that we can do this with their screen characters!
What a treasure we have in this film. And what a wonderful gift Annie Proulx gave the world with her story that inspired this film.
Jack in Maine
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Hi, Jack_ME!
That was brilliantly summed up - comparing the shooting scenes with this "prayer of thanks" one as a way to illistrate their personalities. It constantly amazes me how individual pieces of this film can be related to each other. This is one example I would never have thought of, thank you!
As you say, there is no "fault", just individuals reacting as their natures dictate. Which can lead to " what if's", had the knee-jeck reactions been controlled - or the coyote not been missed! :)
It's postings like these that keeps BBM fresh. Just when you think you're explored all the implications to the prayer scene, you lead us back up the mountain. Thanks!
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Annie Proulx's Ennis Del Mar did not send up a prayer of thanks; but, the movie's Ennis did.
I don't have a problem with that scene; but, I am reminded that I have discovered lots of people pray silently because they were never taught to pray out loud. Some very masculine type guys don't want people to know that they do pray. I had a person "unofficially" living with me when I lived in public housing hi-rise apartment complex. The door to the balcony was a wide "patio door." I noticed that while Kaland was pacing in the narrow space, he seem to be talking. He did not smoke indoors and went out there to do it by his choice. When he came back in, I asked him if he had been praying and he said he had. I didn't ask him what it was about because I did not consider to be my business to know.
The on-screen Ennis more than likely was not even thinking about the harmonica when he was in deep thought while Jack was looking on. I am in agreement with some of the posters here.
Ennis' response seems to be have been said with him thinking to himself, "I don't want Jack to think that I have gone religious up here."
Ennis did not dislike Jack's harmonica playing anymore than he disliked eating beans. (Maybe OT here, but I wouldn't have been surprised that in their times together after the reunion in 1967, they bought Hormel Brand Spam to eat with their breakfast while camping.
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The on-screen Ennis more than likely was not even thinking about the harmonica when he was in deep thought while Jack was looking on. I am in agreement with some of the posters here.
Ennis' response seems to be have been said with him thinking to himself, "I don't want Jack to think that I have gone religious up here."
Ennis did not dislike Jack's harmonica playing anymore than he disliked eating beans. (Maybe OT here, but I wouldn't have been surprised that in their times together after the reunion in 1967, they bought Hormel Brand Spam to eat with their breakfast while camping.
Yes, I do agree that the harmonica was not really what was on his mind. I did feel that he was somehow praying -- being so thankful that he and Jack were back together again.
And your comment about the harmonica playing and eating beans rings true. It is not so OOT, as -- in a beautiful sense -- the harmonica almost becomes a metaphor of his time spent with Jack on BBM. This is reinforced in the screenplay where, in the scene where Ennis is late meeting Jack for their fishing trip, he offers Jack a paper bag of canned beans (barely seen and heard in the movie version).
harmonica and beans -- they signify Jack to Ennis, and Jack, after all, was what Ennis was most thankful for all along.
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harmonica and beans -- they signify Jack to Ennis, and Jack, after all, was what Ennis was most thankful for all along.
Absolutely, Tpe, can't see a can a beans or hear a harmonica these days without thinking of Jack and Ennis. Same goes for campfires. Or rivers. etc.
And, of course, I wasn't implying that Ennis actually hated Jack's harmonica playing, it's their private inside joke, like bringing beans on their later camping trips. Very sweet, the kind of things two long time lovers share, part of their secret world.
Back to the "prayer of thanks" topic ... Do you think there is any significance to Jack using the word "heaven" instead of just "sky" or leaving it at "up there"? Then Ennis replying with "prayer"? Regardless of the sad conclusion they are left with about the limits they have to place on seeing each other, reading all this today has made me think that both men felt their time together was sacred. That being together in the wilderness was a spiritual as well as physical connection, and maybe their choice of words came subconsciously out of that.
Not sure if that really has implications for our primary discussion on the missed chance for Ennis to open up, but maybe it would be an awkward transition, going from communing with the peace of the moment to verbalizing earthbound thoughts and emotions. You'd be likely to stumble, "miss the coyote". ??? :-\
(may be way off base here ... more of a "stream of consciousness" thought brought on by previous observations. if so, sorry!)
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Back to the "prayer of thanks" topic ... Do you think there is any significance to Jack using the word "heaven" instead of just "sky" or leaving it at "up there"? Then Ennis replying with "prayer"? Regardless of the sad conclusion they are left with about the limits they have to place on seeing each other, reading all this today has made me think that both men felt their time together was sacred. That being together in the wilderness was a spiritual as well as physical connection, and maybe their choice of words came subconsciously out of that.
Not sure if that really has implications for our primary discussion on the missed chance for Ennis to open up, but maybe it would be an awkward transition, going from communing with the peace of the moment to verbalizing earthbound thoughts and emotions. You'd be likely to stumble, "miss the coyote". ??? :-\
(may be way off base here ... more of a "stream of consciousness" thought brought on by previous observations. if so, sorry!)
"Heaven" is "beyond the sky" in a theological sense. In the book, the only time that anything related to any religion is when Jack favors "Water-Walking Jesus" because his mother who had taught it to him believed in the Pentecost. "Believing in the Pentecost" is what every Christian does. But, the screenplay/movie version of the story made Jack's mother to be a Pentecostal . . . and movie version had Alma and the girls attending Sunday School and church regularly. Ennis referred to those who went to that church as the "Fire and Brimstone Crowd." (The real Riverton does have a Pentecostal church, an Assembly of God.)
I think that Jack in his own spirit was able to discern that Ennis was actually having communication with "Heaven" and that is why he said that in the dialog. And, while Ennis did not say whom he was thanking in the "prayer," it could have been that he had his own relationship with the Creator.
In theological terms, the word translated as "holy," "sacred" or "consecrated" in the Bible, in either the Hebrew or the Greek original texts, also means something that has been set aside for a special purpose. I can get off into a tangental discussion here in regard to this but, there is a verse in one of the New Testament Epistles which says in words to this effect, "You were bought for a price; therefore glorify God in your bodies." Well, since sex is a gift from the Creator meant to be shared equally with a loving partner, I think that the guys sharing of themselves physically was also a divinely spiritual experience, too. Years ago, I mentioned something to that in effect in a discussion at church where most of those there were gays and lesbians.
The high mountains of the West has been called "God's Country." I have even seen western movies with those two words as part of the title. I has been a spiritual experience to watch eagles circuling up in the sky when I was lying on the ground and looking up.
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Back to the "prayer of thanks" topic ... Do you think there is any significance to Jack using the word "heaven" instead of just "sky" or leaving it at "up there"? Then Ennis replying with "prayer"? Regardless of the sad conclusion they are left with about the limits they have to place on seeing each other, reading all this today has made me think that both men felt their time together was sacred. That being together in the wilderness was a spiritual as well as physical connection, and maybe their choice of words came subconsciously out of that.
Not sure if that really has implications for our primary discussion on the missed chance for Ennis to open up, but maybe it would be an awkward transition, going from communing with the peace of the moment to verbalizing earthbound thoughts and emotions. You'd be likely to stumble, "miss the coyote". ??? :-\
(may be way off base here ... more of a "stream of consciousness" thought brought on by previous observations. if so, sorry!)
MississaugaRed, your mentioning the use of the word 'heaven' brings tears to my eyes.
Do you agree with me that at that exact moment in the movie, Ennis and jack were at the apex of earthly happiness?
It surely must have been heaven for them.
Ennis adjusting his head, while looking at the stars -- and suddenly smiling that beatific smile. In my heart, I know that at that point, all time was suspended for him. He did not care of the past, or the future. He was living the moment. It was the perfect moment.
And Jack, gazing at Ennis. Using the word 'Heaven' to express precisely where he felt he was at the moment. How could it be anything else. For Jack, it was the closest ever that he came to touching his dream. Four years in the desert. Four years of uncertainly and searching. And then he knew at that very moment that his Ennis loved him still.
God be merciful that I should ever again come across such a moment of radiant happiness.
It is heaven.
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MississaugaRed, your mentioning the use of the word 'heaven' brings tears to my eyes.
Do you agree with me that at that exact moment in the movie, Ennis and jack were at the apex of earthly happiness?
It surely must have been heaven for them.
Ennis adjusting his head, while looking at the stars -- and suddenly smiling that beatific smile. In my heart, I know that at that point, all time was suspended for him. He did not care of the past, or the future. He was living the moment. It was the perfect moment.
And Jack, gazing at Ennis. Using the word 'Heaven' to express precisely where he felt he was at the moment. How could it be anything else. For Jack, it was the closest ever that he came to touching his dream. Four years in the desert. Four years of uncertainly and searching. And then he knew at that very moment that his Ennis loved him still.
God be merciful that I should ever again come across such a moment of radiant happiness.
It is heaven.
Oh, now it's your turn to bring tears to my eyes, Tpe. "Four years in the desert", what a gently heartbreaking way to discribe those first four years apart.
And yes, I thnk I can agree with you about this being their apex of "earthly" happiness. A rare, perfect moment. Even though in flashback later what Jack remembers and longs for is that moment on BBM, being hugged by Ennis, I guess it's in this moment here that they are equal partners in loving and longing, can for the first time admit, wordlessly, that this is a connection neither can disavow
I may have to send up a prayer of thanks myself for this one. Thank you, Tpe.
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And yes, I thnk I can agree with you about this being their apex of "earthly" happiness. A rare, perfect moment. Even though in flashback later what Jack remembers and longs for is that moment on BBM, being hugged by Ennis, I guess it's in this moment here that they are equal partners in loving and longing, can for the first time admit, wordlessly, that this is a connection neither can disavow
MississaugaRed, somehow I knew you would bring up the dozy embrace.
I have always believed that the happiness there was not "earthly".
In religious parlance, I think they call it "The State of Divine Grace".
I knew you understood.
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Thanks, Tpe. :) You constantly challenge, as do the others here; I can only hope to keep up, at least part of the time.
Just as earlier Jack_ME made a connection from this scene to how both Jack and Ennis handled a rifle that first summer, you've taken us from here back to the dozy embrace.
It seems all roads lead to Brokeback. Another reason for a prayer of thanks.
We here can see Ennis's remark in a variety of ways after having had much time to ponder; it's little wonder Jack's natural impulse to forge ahead full speed, as Jack_ME so rightly observed, might have forestalled more heartfelt revelations from Ennis.
(Oops - "Revelations" ... again with the religious reference, and completely unplanned ... this must have been a heavenly encounter indeed. :o )
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There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that once Jack "missed the coyote" i.e. said "For what?"......he then realized what Ennis had really been saying, and so THEN after that realization (after he had "missed the coyote") tried to pick up on Ennis's original mood and thought. But it was too late. As so often in the film (think of the post Alma divorce), Jack reacts quickly and impulsively. And sometimes, he misses his mark because of that.
You know, Jack, I'd never really thought of it in that way - that it was Jack who caused Ennis to make a joke because he didn't give Ennis time to express what he was really thinking about. But now that you mention it, it does kind of make sense.
I wonder what Ennis would have said if he'd been given the time to get his thoughts together? Maybe one of the fanfic authors could come up with a little alternative here.....
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Thanks for having patience with me MississaugaRed.
Jack knew who Ennis was thinking of at that moment. Ennis knew who Jack was thinking of.
Jack's question struck me as rhetorical. It was a moment of connection between two who never really needed to say much to each other and express their feelings.
That is another beauty of this moment. They speak in a language understandable on two levels.
One level spoke comfort and perfect ease between the two of them.
The other level spoke the language of love.
They were never that articulate when speaking the language of love. And yet, it is there beneath the casual repartee. And in that complete understanding, in spite of their inarticulateness, they were most eloquent.
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...snip...
You know, Jack, I'd never really thought of it in that way - that it was Jack who caused Ennis to make a joke because he didn't give Ennis time to express what he was really thinking about. But now that you mention it, it does kind of make sense.
I wonder what Ennis would have said if he'd been given the time to get his thoughts together? ...snip...
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Exactly! NoReins, that's what I felt....Jack's response caused Ennis to defensively make a joke of it, and then to quickly put away the serious feelings and thoughts he had been experiencing. And that's the wonder I had in the beginning too. How could it have been different for these two people, as real people, in that circumstance.
Thanks for comment NoReins!
Jack in Maine
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...snip...
You know, Jack, I'd never really thought of it in that way - that it was Jack who caused Ennis to make a joke because he didn't give Ennis time to express what he was really thinking about. But now that you mention it, it does kind of make sense.
I wonder what Ennis would have said if he'd been given the time to get his thoughts together? ...snip...
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Exactly! NoReins, that's what I felt....Jack's response caused Ennis to defensively make a joke of it, and then to quickly put away the serious feelings and thoughts he had been experiencing. And that's the wonder I had in the beginning too. How could it have been different for these two people, as real people, in that circumstance.
Thanks for comment NoReins!
Jack in Maine
It is tantalizing to contemplate what might have happened if, instead of asking "For what?", Jack had just rested in the comfort of that silence in the wilderness, by the river's edge, in the glow of their campfire, and and allowed Ennis to expand on his prayer if and how he so chose. And perhaps I was a bit defensive on Jack's behalf in my initial response on this thread about two months back. Time and expansion have allowed me to more clearly see it is a question of possibilities-what if?-rather than expectations-he should have...
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...snip...
Just to clarify, as some seem to have responded as if I were and I'm not at all trying to fault Jack, meaning I'm not trying to say he did something wrong 'cuz after all, he just did what he did. That's part of his character which is also the sub-text of my comments. I'm just focusing on the "what if...." based on what I saw as a missed opportunity when on one of the rare occasions Ennis had started to open up and express his feelings verbally. You here, and others before, use what happens AFTERWARD, to explain and interpret what happened first. Just for the sake of this discussion, I'm making a point which some might see as simply playing with words, but that's not what I'm intending to do.
Compare Jack's personality, his reaction, in this scene FROM THE FIRST OF IT, (Ennis staring up, Jack says....Ennis says...offering prayer of thanks...) to the short scene when Jack was the one up on the mountain tending the sheep, and he spied and shot at the coyote. If you recall that coyote scene, what you see is a guy who spies a coyote and instantly brings his rifle up and practically pulls the trigger before the gun has even stopped moving....and in fact, if he thought he was aiming, he didn't do a very good job, because not only did he not kill the coyote, he didn't even hit it. Missed by a mile, because his impulse was to act instantly, not carefully take aim, get a bead on the animal, and gently squeeze the trigger and kill it. Now think of Ennis when he shot the elk. Very slow, very deliberate, careful aim, no rush, and bullseye! Down comes the elk.
Now think of the campfire scene again and compare their respective behaviors.
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that once Jack "missed the coyote" i.e. said "For what?"......he then realized what Ennis had really been saying, and so THEN after that realization (after he had "missed the coyote") tried to pick up on Ennis's original mood and thought. But it was too late. As so often in the film (think of the post Alma divorce), Jack reacts quickly and impulsively. And sometimes, he misses his mark because of that.
This is part of Jack's personality, and is one of the ways in which the two boys differ.
It's so wonderful to able to examine and dissect these screen characters to such a degree. I can't think of very many other films (off the top of my head none!) where the characters had such fully developed personalities that we can do this with their screen characters!
What a treasure we have in this film. And what a wonderful gift Annie Proulx gave the world with her story that inspired this film.
Jack in Maine
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I like your words, Jack; and I love this whole discussion. And there is such a wealth of things to discuss about these characters and all those who created them. This is a treasure, indeed, a gift, as you said. Isn't it amazing how this has really got us good, seriously -- so many people moved in so many ways by this experience. Who said it somewhere here...about the universe conspiring to bring all this together, huh? And here we are to enrich the experience even more for all of us by sharing and discussing and writing and doing art and videos and acting out and just all of it. And we're all kinds of people, drawn together for this.
This and similar threads in particular, because we get to talk about talking. About communicating and how to or not to.
Okay, enough of that high-falutin' stuff, I'm goin' to go find someplace to talk about how damn sexy Ennis and Jack are together :P
ks
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Quoting Jack in ME:
"when Jack was the one up on the mountain tending the sheep, and he spied and shot at the coyote. If you recall that coyote scene, what you see is a guy who spies a coyote and instantly brings his rifle up and practically pulls the trigger before the gun has even stopped moving....and in fact, if he thought he was aiming, he didn't do a very good job, because not only did he not kill the coyote, he didn't even hit it. Missed by a mile, because his impulse was to act instantly, not carefully take aim, get a bead on the animal, and gently squeeze the trigger and kill it. Now think of Ennis when he shot the elk. Very slow, very deliberate, careful aim, no rush, and bullseye! Down comes the elk."
Thanks for bringing this up, Jack. In the story, Proulx uses the word "quicksilver" to describe Jack's personality. If Jack is quicksilver, Ennis is a rock. Or hard, red clay. Solid, sure, doesn't change.
Re: discussion about whether Jack's "quicksilver" interruption of Ennis caused him to back off a rare moment of expressiveness.... Can't help but think of the other thread, discussing Jack driving all the way to Wyoming when he learns of the divorce. Ennis had initiated the contact about the divorce. If Jack had just waited....waited for another postcard, [another phone call if you're in the short story].... would Ennis have been able to handle things better?
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Thanks for bringing this up, Jack. In the story, Proulx uses the word "quicksilver" to describe Jack's personality. If Jack is quicksilver, Ennis is a rock. Or hard, red clay. Solid, sure, doesn't change.
Re: discussion about whether Jack's "quicksilver" interruption of Ennis caused him to back off a rare moment of expressiveness.... Can't help but think of the other thread, discussing Jack driving all the way to Wyoming when he learns of the divorce. Ennis had initiated the contact about the divorce. If Jack had just waited....waited for another postcard, [another phone call if you're in the short story].... would Ennis have been able to handle things better?
Yes, I agree that this scene of the 'prayer of thanks' is one where you can appreciate Gyllenhaal's quicksilver embodiment of the character of Jack Twist -- so different from the original persona as envisioned by Proulx.
We hear without difficulty the ethereal happiness and contentment in Jack's voice that beigns the scene. We are on edge WITH him as he asks the suggestive question 'For what?' We appreciate the spontanaiety in Jack's soft laughter upon hearing Ennis's retort about the harmonica. THAT LAUGHTER: so natural and yet so pregnant with meaning -- we are without a doubt that Jack understood the true origin of Ennis's current happiness. THAT LAUGHTER: so infectious that we cannot help but laugh with him deep inside. It makes us so happy FOR BOTH OF THEM. THAT LAUGHTER: it is indeed the non plus ultra of that quicksilver quality we have come to appreciate in Jake Gyllenhaal's acting. As I had said in the Superstar thread, the acting is so subtle as to be entirely self effacing: hence, to be missed by less refined movie critics.
And finally, there is the entire sequence that begins with 'You know it can be like this...Just like this...Always...'. In this entire scene, the voice reveals a character who now makes himself completely vulnerable out of pure love. To follow Proulx's image, Jack has released the projectile that is soon to be shot down by Ennis for fear of the past.
And yet in that brief soaring moment when Jack proposes to Ennis that golden dream -- that dream of all dreams -- you cannot help but love him forever and ever -- eternally -- long after all the stars in that heavenly night are dead.
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snip ...
And finally, there is the entire sequence that begins with 'You know it can be like this...Just like this...Always...'. In this entire scene, the voice reveals a character who now makes himself completely vulnerable out of pure love. To follow Proulx's image, Jack has released the projectile that is soon to be shot down by Ennis for fear of the past.
And yet in that brief soaring moment when Jack proposes to Ennis that golden dream -- that dream of all dreams -- you cannot help but love him forever and ever -- eternally -- long after all the stars in that heavenly night are dead.
Okay, tears now ... :'(
tpe, I'll be first in line to buy that book you should be writing. Such sweet words.
OT maybe, but love your decription of Gyllenhaal's acting, how his quicksliver quality was so well suited to Jack Twist. BBM made me a huge fan. But in BBM - just see Jack, not Jake. He's THAT good.
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Thanks MississaugaRed for understanding.
I was crying when I wrote that long last sentence.
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OT maybe, but love your decription of Gyllenhaal's acting, how his quicksliver quality was so well suited to Jack Twist. BBM made me a huge fan. But in BBM - just see Jack, not Jake. He's THAT good.
It's funny, I didn't see that first time round - saw it with Heath/Ennis but not with Jake/Jack. Now that I've had the chance to watch it a few more times, though, I totally agree with you MissRed.
In all the plaudits for Brokeback Mountain, no one seems to ever mention the genius of the casting people in getting it so right.
Sorry, I know that was OT...
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Just by this 'prayer of thanks' scene alone, I find it impossible to rate the casting of Ledger/Gyllenhaal as less than perfection.
What was SAG thinking? They truly know not the meaning of Art.
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Tpe, you're spot on, art must not have been the only point at SAG or the Academy. Strange, huh?
Re: the "prayer of thanks" scene, there was another thing that recently caught my eye, wondered if anyone else as already noticed this. It relates back to other scenes as well but struck me as particularly telling in this one.
When Ennis is lying back looking up at the stars, both he and Jack have their hats off. They have that brief sweet moment about heaven and prayers, where things may or may not have been left unsaid. But as soon as Jack starts laying out his dream of them setting up a place together, Ennis sits up and immediately slips his hat back on. Then he starts giving Jack all the reasons why his dream is not going to happen.
Watching Ennis slip that hat back on his head reminds me of a soldier slipping on a piece of armour. Bare headed he's vulnerable, hat on and he feels protected. It's been said before that both men use their hats to good advantage, and that Ennis often hides in his. I'm starting to think it's more than that.
FNIT - sleeping, both hats off, they are open to each other and become intimate.
SNIT - when Ennis gets up the courage to go to Jack, he removes his hat, but goes into the tent still holding it in front of him, like a shield. It's Jack who gently tugs it out of his hand, a gesture that might mean "open up to me, you don't need to hide yourself from me, I'll keep you safe".
Reunion Kiss - Ennis comes to Jack bareheaded - and knocks Jack's hat off him before kissing him. Same message, maybe - "open up to me"?
Last camping trip - sitting around the fire, talking, telling some half truths, hats on; sleeping together, cuddling with hats off; next day recriminations, hats on because the truths are bitter ones and they both feel the need for protection (?).
Maybe I'm stretching the idea too far, but it's a pattern I see often in them.
So back to the "prayer"; They are both open and in tune to begin, and this is where some see the potential for Ennis to have opened up more if he'd had a few seconds extra of silence to gather his courage maybe. But as soon as that hat goes on, Ennis is guarded, no longer as accessible. Jack, though, is still hatless, i.e. vulnerable, and we see his hurt as his dreams are shot down.
So re hats ... "you don't think I'm too fast, do you? Maybe I should put the brakes on??" :) (misquote, but hey, I tried)
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Tpe, you're spot on, art must not have been the only point at SAG or the Academy. Strange, huh?
Re: the "prayer of thanks" scene, there was another thing that recently caught my eye, wondered if anyone else as already noticed this. It relates back to other scenes as well but struck me as particularly telling in this one.
When Ennis is lying back looking up at the stars, both he and Jack have their hats off. They have that brief sweet moment about heaven and prayers, where things may or may not have been left unsaid. But as soon as Jack starts laying out his dream of them setting up a place together, Ennis sits up and immediately slips his hat back on. Then he starts giving Jack all the reasons why his dream is not going to happen.
Watching Ennis slip that hat back on his head reminds me of a soldier slipping on a piece of armour. Bare headed he's vulnerable, hat on and he feels protected. It's been said before that both men use their hats to good advantage, and that Ennis often hides in his. I'm starting to think it's more than that.
FNIT - sleeping, both hats off, they are open to each other and become intimate.
SNIT - when Ennis gets up the courage to go to Jack, he removes his hat, but goes into the tent still holding it in front of him, like a shield. It's Jack who gently tugs it out of his hand, a gesture that might mean "open up to me, you don't need to hide yourself from me, I'll keep you safe".
Reunion Kiss - Ennis comes to Jack bareheaded - and knocks Jack's hat off him before kissing him. Same message, maybe - "open up to me"?
Last camping trip - sitting around the fire, talking, telling some half truths, hats on; sleeping together, cuddling with hats off; next day recriminations, hats on because the truths are bitter ones and they both feel the need for protection (?).
Maybe I'm stretching the idea too far, but it's a pattern I see often in them.
So back to the "prayer"; They are both open and in tune to begin, and this is where some see the potential for Ennis to have opened up more if he'd had a few seconds extra of silence to gather his courage maybe. But as soon as that hat goes on, Ennis is guarded, no longer as accessible. Jack, though, is still hatless, i.e. vulnerable, and we see his hurt as his dreams are shot down.
So re hats ... "you don't think I'm too fast, do you? Maybe I should put the brakes on??" :) (misquote, but hey, I tried)
MissRed - I think that just may be the best post I've read on here. It's so obvious when you lay it all out, but I haven't seen it discussed in any other threads so I'm guessing the significance of the hats had been lost on us all. No reins (required) on this one - I think you're absolutely right. I always wondered about Ennis putting his hat back on before he shot Jack's dreams down in flames, but I'd never tied it into any other scenes or worked out why, so thank you so much for sharing your ideas here :)
And now I just want to go home and watch the whole damn thing again so I can see all these "hat moments"...
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Oh, and as a p.s. - maybe you should start a new thread about the hats on/hats off moments before we get told off for being off topic!
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Cool, NoReins - watch it for both of us as I won't "yet have the opportunity" this weekend, let us know if there are more .. you'll like find contradictory ones too, but it's the contrasts and contradictions that keep us coming back to BBM anyway. Cheers.
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Tpe, you're spot on, art must not have been the only point at SAG or the Academy. Strange, huh?
Re: the "prayer of thanks" scene, there was another thing that recently caught my eye, wondered if anyone else as already noticed this. It relates back to other scenes as well but struck me as particularly telling in this one.
When Ennis is lying back looking up at the stars, both he and Jack have their hats off. They have that brief sweet moment about heaven and prayers, where things may or may not have been left unsaid. But as soon as Jack starts laying out his dream of them setting up a place together, Ennis sits up and immediately slips his hat back on. Then he starts giving Jack all the reasons why his dream is not going to happen.
Watching Ennis slip that hat back on his head reminds me of a soldier slipping on a piece of armour. Bare headed he's vulnerable, hat on and he feels protected. It's been said before that both men use their hats to good advantage, and that Ennis often hides in his. I'm starting to think it's more than that.
FNIT - sleeping, both hats off, they are open to each other and become intimate.
SNIT - when Ennis gets up the courage to go to Jack, he removes his hat, but goes into the tent still holding it in front of him, like a shield. It's Jack who gently tugs it out of his hand, a gesture that might mean "open up to me, you don't need to hide yourself from me, I'll keep you safe".
Reunion Kiss - Ennis comes to Jack bareheaded - and knocks Jack's hat off him before kissing him. Same message, maybe - "open up to me"?
Last camping trip - sitting around the fire, talking, telling some half truths, hats on; sleeping together, cuddling with hats off; next day recriminations, hats on because the truths are bitter ones and they both feel the need for protection (?).
Maybe I'm stretching the idea too far, but it's a pattern I see often in them.
So back to the "prayer"; They are both open and in tune to begin, and this is where some see the potential for Ennis to have opened up more if he'd had a few seconds extra of silence to gather his courage maybe. But as soon as that hat goes on, Ennis is guarded, no longer as accessible. Jack, though, is still hatless, i.e. vulnerable, and we see his hurt as his dreams are shot down.
So re hats ... "you don't think I'm too fast, do you? Maybe I should put the brakes on??" :) (misquote, but hey, I tried)
MissRed - I think that just may be the best post I've read on here. It's so obvious when you lay it all out, but I haven't seen it discussed in any other threads so I'm guessing the significance of the hats had been lost on us all. No reins (required) on this one - I think you're absolutely right. I always wondered about Ennis putting his hat back on before he shot Jack's dreams down in flames, but I'd never tied it into any other scenes or worked out why, so thank you so much for sharing your ideas here :)
And now I just want to go home and watch the whole damn thing again so I can see all these "hat moments"...
I agree with NoReins. This is indeed a beautiful post that ties a lot of scenes on an emotional level.
In the scene concerning Jack's dream, Ennis does indeed put on the hat the moment he starts saying "It ain't gonna be that way." And of course, at the end of the scene, Jack physically takes hold of Ennis, as if to reclaim him from 'under the hat'.
I do remember a thread or threads that deal specifically with hat colors and how hats are used in the movie, although I am not so sure if they ever tied together all these emotions the way the above post does.
It is not totally off topic. The 'prayer of thanks' is a high point from which Ennis rapidly descends, as witnessed by the succeeding scene where he recalls Earl and Rich. Observe that throughout these 2 scenes, Jack remains bareheaded. He makes himself vulnerable all throughout. It is his vulnerability that leads him to touch Ennis in the end. The 'prayer of thanks' brings him to a high point where he feels secure with his dream of love. He remains bareheaded -- vulnerable. He is not to descend so easily.
Finally, although Ennis becomes defensive in this scene when Jack talks about his dream, we note that ENNIS MOVES CLOSER TO JACK nonetheless. He is involuntarily seeking refuge in the love they both share. He has not repudiated that love. It is the dream of a shared life that he doubts and fears. You see Ennis most secure in the 'prayer of thanks' scene. It is so moving to see him instinctively seeking refuge in Jack's loving proximity.
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Oh my God, you guys are amazing! Jack_ME, great thread. And so many wonderful posts. Just to make sure I was clear in my impressions, I popped the DVD in to watch this scene again (hey, you gotta do what you gotta do :)). I had a bunch of arguments prepared to support my position on whether or not Jack's response to Ennis' "prayer of thanks" cut off his ability to open up to Jack about his feelings. But I've thrown them all out the window with this fresh viewing. Here's what I'm left with: 1. I definitely don't think Jack's "For what?" was cavalier (never did actually). But I also wonder if we may not be giving these boys enough credit. I would initially have gone along with the idea that two abused, uneducated 1960s ranch hands wouldn't be terribly articulate or skilled in communicating. But now I think maybe they were communicating just fine. One thing a lot of us have noticed before is that they don't just have romantic love - they're best friends. They're more comfortable with each other than with anyone else in their lives. I think it's possible that Jack understands what Ennis is thankful for. It's a natural instinct to say "What for?" to let the other person elaborate. And I don't think Ennis' response means he's closing off emotionally by making a joke (just as Jack's reaction doesn't seem to indicate disappointment). It wasn't to mask an uncomfortable moment. They look Comfortable together (and the expression on Ennis' face after the harmonica comment is soo sweet)! I think maybe when Jack immediately follows that up with "It could be like this, just like this, always", he's referring to all of that, not just romance but "we could be together - we could have this level of intimacy and comfort that we only have with each other" all the time.
And 2. I have to say I think that Ennis' comment about "this thing" grabbing hold of them (which he was afraid he wouldn't be able to control around other people) shows just how deep his fears went. "Two guys living together - no way". That belief was too deeply entrenched for him to get past, no matter what Jack's response might have been to his "prayer of thanks". On a more positive note, though, sad as it may all be, I think his "Ain't no reins on this one" remark Is his way of expressing his feelings to Jack. And Jack's tender touch to his face is his acknowledging of this and reciprocating.
I jotted these thoughts down on my way to a meeting and you all have since added so much but I still wanted to share that take with you. I already feel like I want to look at it again in light of all your wonderful comments! Unfortunately off to another appointment. I can't wait to see what's here when I get back!
You know, I really feel like I just keep falling in love with them all over again every day!
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Tpe, you're spot on, art must not have been the only point at SAG or the Academy. Strange, huh?
Re: the "prayer of thanks" scene, there was another thing that recently caught my eye, wondered if anyone else as already noticed this. It relates back to other scenes as well but struck me as particularly telling in this one.
When Ennis is lying back looking up at the stars, both he and Jack have their hats off. They have that brief sweet moment about heaven and prayers, where things may or may not have been left unsaid. But as soon as Jack starts laying out his dream of them setting up a place together, Ennis sits up and immediately slips his hat back on. Then he starts giving Jack all the reasons why his dream is not going to happen.
Watching Ennis slip that hat back on his head reminds me of a soldier slipping on a piece of armour. Bare headed he's vulnerable, hat on and he feels protected. It's been said before that both men use their hats to good advantage, and that Ennis often hides in his. I'm starting to think it's more than that.
FNIT - sleeping, both hats off, they are open to each other and become intimate.
SNIT - when Ennis gets up the courage to go to Jack, he removes his hat, but goes into the tent still holding it in front of him, like a shield. It's Jack who gently tugs it out of his hand, a gesture that might mean "open up to me, you don't need to hide yourself from me, I'll keep you safe".
Reunion Kiss - Ennis comes to Jack bareheaded - and knocks Jack's hat off him before kissing him. Same message, maybe - "open up to me"?
Last camping trip - sitting around the fire, talking, telling some half truths, hats on; sleeping together, cuddling with hats off; next day recriminations, hats on because the truths are bitter ones and they both feel the need for protection (?).
Maybe I'm stretching the idea too far, but it's a pattern I see often in them.
So back to the "prayer"; They are both open and in tune to begin, and this is where some see the potential for Ennis to have opened up more if he'd had a few seconds extra of silence to gather his courage maybe. But as soon as that hat goes on, Ennis is guarded, no longer as accessible. Jack, though, is still hatless, i.e. vulnerable, and we see his hurt as his dreams are shot down.
So re hats ... "you don't think I'm too fast, do you? Maybe I should put the brakes on??" :) (misquote, but hey, I tried)
Ladies, ladies, aren't we going just a little too far in this analysis? Don't you think there are practicle reasons for having hats off?
When a man wears a brimmed hat and he lays down, he removes his hat because not doing so will fold the brim in the back up. Nothing more complicated than that.
If a man takes a nap he might take the hat off or to keep the bright light out of his eyes he may tilt the hat down over his eye so the brim isn't sticking into the log or whatever he is resting his head against, and to keep the light out of his eyes.
But, as in the first tent scene, they were sleeping. When you go to sleep you don't wear your hat to bed.
The second night in the tent Ennis definitely took his hat off before getting to the tent. There was an entire discussion about this and it was decided that Ennis was coming to Jack "hat in hand." Jack takes the hat and sets it aside. Don't need a hat to kiss and later make love do we?
The reunion kiss, did you see how they were kissing, face to face. If Jack had his hat on the brim of his hat would have been in Ennis' face. The hat had to go, and seeing it was Ennis that was pushing Jack into a corner out of sight and Jack had no idea what was about to happen, Ennis knocked it off of Jack's head to get it out of the way.
Last camping trip the same thing. You don't go to sleep with your hat on.
And as for Ennis laying down looking up at the stars, well, he was laying down. That is why he had his hat off. As soon as he got up the hat went on.
Isn't it possible you are all just over analyzing this just a bit?
;D
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Oh my God, you guys are amazing! Jack_ME, great thread. And so many wonderful posts. Just to make sure I was clear in my impressions, I popped the DVD in to watch this scene again (hey, you gotta do what you gotta do :)). I had a bunch of arguments prepared to support my position on whether or not Jack's response to Ennis' "prayer of thanks" cut off his ability to open up to Jack about his feelings. But I've thrown them all out the window with this fresh viewing. Here's what I'm left with: 1. I definitely don't think Jack's "For what?" was cavalier (never did actually). But I also wonder if we may not be giving these boys enough credit. I would initially have gone along with the idea that two abused, uneducated 1960s ranch hands wouldn't be terribly articulate or skilled in communicating. But now I think maybe they were communicating just fine. One thing a lot of us have noticed before is that they don't just have romantic love - they're best friends. They're more comfortable with each other than with anyone else in their lives. I think it's possible that Jack understands what Ennis is thankful for. It's a natural instinct to say "What for?" to let the other person elaborate. And I don't think Ennis' response means he's closing off emotionally by making a joke (just as Jack's reaction doesn't seem to indicate disappointment). It wasn't to mask an uncomfortable moment. They look Comfortable together (and the expression on Ennis' face after the harmonica comment is soo sweet)! I think maybe when Jack immediately follows that up with "It could be like this, just like this, always", he's referring to all of that, not just romance but "we could be together - we could have this level of intimacy and comfort that we only have with each other" all the time.
And 2. I have to say I think that Ennis' comment about "this thing" grabbing hold of them (which he was afraid he wouldn't be able to control around other people) shows just how deep his fears went. "Two guys living together - no way". That belief was too deeply entrenched for him to get past, no matter what Jack's response might have been to his "prayer of thanks". On a more positive note, though, sad as it may all be, I think his "Ain't no reins on this one" remark Is his way of expressing his feelings to Jack. And Jack's tender touch to his face is his acknowledging of this and reciprocating.
I jotted these thoughts down on my way to a meeting and you all have since added so much but I still wanted to share that take with you. I already feel like I want to look at it again in light of all your wonderful comments! Unfortunately off to another appointment. I can't wait to see what's here when I get back!
You know, I really feel like I just keep falling in love with them all over again every day!
Thank you FlwrChild. You brought me to tears once more.
Yes, it is a love strengthened by a deep friendship and understanding of what they share and what they hold dear in each other. And this is why they are indeed much more articulate in that wordless repartee that only such a love can give voice to.
What can be more eloquent than the 'prayer of thanks'? I do think both of them knew the true meaning of the playful words exchanged (and I do contend that they were playful). And you are right. 'You know it can be like this...Just like this...Always...' is an affirmation that shows that both knew that at that very moment of being together again, they are truly dead to the world, and the world is transformed into each other.
There is so much poetry in this scene. There is so much pathos on what it means to dream and to struggle contra mundum.
What can be more eloquent than this scene? It is the brief unmitigated happiness of the moment that embodies the very meaning of Carpe Diem.
It is a moment of pure, unadulterated grace.
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Isn't it possible you are all just over analyzing this just a bit?
;D
I am not sure, personally, Patriot1.
Honestly, with tears in my eyes just know, I am sure I am being more emotional than analytical at the moment.
I guess we tend to see symbolism where it is most meaningful to us. I apologize for this, but the vision becomes a bit too personal for me to rationaize it so deep inside.
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snip ...
Isn't it possible you are all just over analyzing this just a bit?
;D
Well, gosh, Patriot1, isn't overanalzing the point? Otherwise there wouldn't be over 100,000 posts on ennisjack! :)
Being practical would mean just watching the film and moving on. Just can't be that practical, sorry! ;)
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Isn't it possible you are all just over analyzing this just a bit?
;D
Quite possibly - but, hell, it's fun ;D
Anyway, still doesn't really answer why Ennis puts his hat on when he sits up after the "prayer of thanks". OK, he was sitting up, but why put his hat on? Jack didn't have his on and he was sitting up all the time.
Go on then.... ;)
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What do I love most about Ennis in the beginning this scene?
It is one of the rare moments when you see him momentarily unclouded by guilt and dreaded memory.
What do I love most about Jack in the beginning of this scene?
It is one of the rare moments when you see him so secure in their love.
What is the only other scene when we can apply the above comments without modification?
We have discussed this correspondence earlier: it is the beatific dozy embrace.
By this very correspondence, we can begin to understand why this scene crystallizes everything in this world that we hold most beautiful and most rare.
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Being practical would mean just watching the film and moving on. Just can't be that practical, sorry! ;)
No!! Not at all! There are hunderds of things in this movie to talk about without making things up or assigning motives to cast and crew that they never even thought about. :D
But, I did enjoy a good laugh to my self. Thanks for that. ;D
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Isn't it possible you are all just over analyzing this just a bit?
;D
Quite possibly - but, hell, it's fun ;D
Anyway, still doesn't really answer why Ennis puts his hat on when he sits up after the "prayer of thanks". OK, he was sitting up, but why put his hat on? Jack didn't have his on and he was sitting up all the time.
Go on then.... ;)
This is only a guess mind you. But, seeing Ennis had it handy, he put it on when he sat up. When a man wears a hat outside and he takes it off for a reason (to lay down) but then he gets up, he puts the hat back on where it belongs. He is out doors. And, I am sure he didn't want to sit there holding it. I didn't even see Jack's hat anywhere around. Maybe it was in the tent or in the truck. Don't know. But I''d bet it wasn't anywhere around him. And, for a practicle reason he didn't have it on, it would have shaded his face from the firelight and wouldn't have been a good picture. Couldn't have seen the facial expressions on his face as he and Ennis talked.
I just watched this scene again. Ennis puts his hat back on because the hat was on his knee while he was laying down. So, when he got up he put it back on.
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I just watched this scene again. Ennis puts his hat back on because the hat was on his knee while he was laying down. So, when he got up he put it back on.
Ah, that's cheating - I'm at work and can't watch bits again to clarify things ;D
Just about to leave, though - may have to watch some bits of the movie when I get in ;)
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I didn't even see Jack's hat anywhere around. Maybe it was in the tent or in the truck. Don't know. But I'd bet it wasn't anywhere around him.
Sorry for quoting myself here.
The reason I didn't see Jack's hat is because it is in plain sight sitting on his knee. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Sure would have lost that bet if I didn't spot it before someone else did!! ;D
But, I will stick to the practical reason he wasn't wearing it. Wasn't trying to make himself vulnerable by taking it off. ;) I don't think our boys thought that deeply.
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But Patriot1, I think you're missing the point. Remember, that's half the point of poetry, literature, movies, etc. Assigning motives, yes. Making things up, no. The author wants each reader/viewer to interpret it uniquely. He/she expresses his/her vision and then sets it free to inspire the next person in whatever way it will. If so many layers can be found in one piece of artwork, I should think most authors/artists would be extremely proud.
Besides, it is just so much fun!
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Isn't it possible you are all just over analyzing this just a bit?
;D
I am not sure, personally, Patriot1.
Honestly, with tears in my eyes just know, I am sure I am being more emotional than analytical at the moment.
I guess we tend to see symbolism where it is most meaningful to us. I apologize for this, but the vision becomes a bit too personal for me to rationaize it so deep inside.
tpe, I love you. And you truly are a poet! Don't apologize - you're absolutely right. We each see it differently because it touches on something personal in all of us. You don't have to be a gay cowboy to be moved by this story or to relate to certain aspects of it. On a side note, I have found this to be the case for myself with a lot of Jake's movies. In the Good Girl, it's Holden wanting someone who 'gets' him (I do too). In MM, it's Joe's comment about knowing someone better than 60 lousy percent because it's the last 40 that counts (very personal issue for me right now too). And though I am neither male nor gay, in the context of the dynamics of my relationship, I am definitely Jack.
So you see, you're supposed to look at it through the eyes of your own personal experience. All we really have for reference in the end is who we are.
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I didn't even see Jack's hat anywhere around. Maybe it was in the tent or in the truck. Don't know. But I'd bet it wasn't anywhere around him.
Sorry for quoting myself here.
The reason I didn't see Jack's hat is because it is in plain sight sitting on his knee. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Sure would have lost that bet if I didn't spot it before someone else did!! ;D
But, I will stick to the practical reason he wasn't wearing it. Wasn't trying to make himself vulnerable by taking it off. ;) I don't think our boys thought that deeply.
Damn you Patriot1! I got in from work and put the dvd on (it lives in the player) to check this bit....spotted it right away, but couldn't tear myself away from the movie to come on here immediately...and now I get round to it, I find out you spotted it first. Not fair ;)
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I didn't even see Jack's hat anywhere around. Maybe it was in the tent or in the truck. Don't know. But I'd bet it wasn't anywhere around him.
Sorry for quoting myself here.
The reason I didn't see Jack's hat is because it is in plain sight sitting on his knee. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Sure would have lost that bet if I didn't spot it before someone else did!! ;D
But, I will stick to the practical reason he wasn't wearing it. Wasn't trying to make himself vulnerable by taking it off. ;) I don't think our boys thought that deeply.
Damn you Patriot1! I got in from work and put the dvd on (it lives in the player) to check this bit....spotted it right away, but couldn't tear myself away from the movie to come on here immediately...and now I get round to it, I find out you spotted it first. Not fair ;)
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Sorry dear. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I didn't even see Jack's hat anywhere around. Maybe it was in the tent or in the truck. Don't know. But I'd bet it wasn't anywhere around him.
Sorry for quoting myself here.
The reason I didn't see Jack's hat is because it is in plain sight sitting on his knee. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Sure would have lost that bet if I didn't spot it before someone else did!! ;D
But, I will stick to the practical reason he wasn't wearing it. Wasn't trying to make himself vulnerable by taking it off. ;) I don't think our boys thought that deeply.
Damn you Patriot1! I got in from work and put the dvd on (it lives in the player) to check this bit....spotted it right away, but couldn't tear myself away from the movie to come on here immediately...and now I get round to it, I find out you spotted it first. Not fair ;)
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Sorry dear. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
S'alright ;)
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Thanks FlwrChild, and thanks to everyone who puts the time to make this thread so meaningful and fun at the same time.
FlwrChild, I was just discussing the movie the other day with my supervisor. He agrees with what you said here.
There is too much beauty in this scene to forfeit to the mundane.
If ever I have a triptych constructed in the golden shrine of BBM, the central panel shall depict the dozy embrace, on one side shall depict the shirts, and the other side shall depict the 'prayer of thanks'.
For now, that shrine is within all of us. The beauty of this scene and all of BBM is within each of us. It rejoices in every waking moment that we live by a vision of such love.
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I'm checkin' in here after the fight's over, it seems, but I think Flower Child has a good point about the hats.
It's done in other movies and plays, by the way. Hat on obviously hides more of a person's face, makes them less readable, less emotionally available, etc.
Just think of the early scene where the old, pre-Jack Ennis is standing there using his hat to hide behind when Jack is trying to check him out.
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Just think of the early scene where the old, pre-Jack Ennis is standing there using his hat to hide behind when Jack is trying to check him out.
I am trying to imagine that same scene with Ennis laying down trying to hide his face. Would he have his hat on or no. I think not.
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I'm checkin' in here after the fight's over, it seems, but I think Flower Child has a good point about the hats.
It's done in other movies and plays, by the way. Hat on obviously hides more of a person's face, makes them less readable, less emotionally available, etc.
Just think of the early scene where the old, pre-Jack Ennis is standing there using his hat to hide behind when Jack is trying to check him out.
Just to clarify - I have to give credit where credit is due. MississaugaRed is responsible for the excellent post on the hats. :)
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I'm checkin' in here after the fight's over, it seems, but I think Flower Child has a good point about the hats.
It's done in other movies and plays, by the way. Hat on obviously hides more of a person's face, makes them less readable, less emotionally available, etc.
Just think of the early scene where the old, pre-Jack Ennis is standing there using his hat to hide behind when Jack is trying to check him out.
Just to clarify - I have to give credit where credit is due. MississaugaRed is responsible for the excellent post on the hats. :)
Oops!! Kudos to Missasauga Red. *applause*
Patriot... are you trying to be difficult here? ;)
Obviously, you can't use *just* hats 100 per cent of the time to communicate open/closed emotional stance. But, as MissRed points out, it is *one* of the tools Lee uses to help communicate the emotions and subtelties of this film. In this film, as we all know, as much is communicated by what remains unsaid as by what is said. So you gotta use some other tactics now and then. We got surreptitious glances, we got licking lips, we got jaw muscles locking, we got various sighs, grunts and yeehaws....
and. we. got. hats.
Enjoy it! ;D
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You are all so funny!!!
I can't take any credit for all the excellent posts following my "throwing my hat into the ring" as it were, Edgar! :)
NoReins, FlwrChild, Tpe (and now you, Edgar) all responded so eloquently to Patriot1's fun challenge to the hat theme, far better than I could have, nothin' for me to do but stand back and enjoy the ride. It's been entertaining, to say the least. I'd say "ain't no reins on this one", but she has been here, so .. Hi, NoReins!
For the record, Patriot1 is absolutely correct in that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar ... but sometimes it's more, n'est pas?? ;)
Didn't think my little hat comments would go this far, though. Maybe this discussion should be moved to a more appropriate thread so as not to offend?? Don't want to take the focus off the "prayer of thanks" topic ..... ???
(that's me, fearing the Moderators again!! - and I ain't jokin'! ... okay, well, maybe a little)
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I'd say "ain't no reins on this one", but she has been here, so .. Hi, NoReins!
;D
This has become a pretty entertaining thread, hasn't it? But maybe we should get back to the original (fantastic) scene under discussion - go on MissRed, get that thread started ;)
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Although the digression about that hats originated here as a meaningful observation relative to the original topic, perhaps we should leave it that for the moment and go back the wonderful scene at hand. :)
Thanks all. If such is the desire, perhaps one of us can create a separate thread, quoting the original post about the hats?
Let us appreciate anew that splendid vision of Ennis and Jack in their first reunion in the mountains...
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I know we don't usually do photos in this section, but maybe this will help to get everyone's minds back on the scene at hand?
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi73.imagethrust.com%2Fi%2F442330%2Fsendingaprayerofthanks2.jpg&hash=42bc0581a1745549a1cee3eacdeda96b0b5adc65)
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I know we don't usually do photos in this section, but maybe this will help to get everyone's minds back on the scene at hand?
Thnaks NoReins. I also created a separate thread for the other topic, so we can continue with the main one here. :)
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What do I love most about Ennis in the beginning this scene?
It is one of the rare moments when you see him momentarily unclouded by guilt and dreaded memory.
What do I love most about Jack in the beginning of this scene?
It is one of the rare moments when you see him so secure in their love.
What is the only other scene when we can apply the above comments without modification?
We have discussed this correspondence earlier: it is the beatific dozy embrace.
By this very correspondence, we can begin to understand why this scene crystallizes everything in this world that we hold most beautiful and most rare.
Well said! Exactly right -- the beautiful freedom of Ennis's smile, the love in Jack's words, corresponding to the dozy embrace... (Must say about that scene, when Ennis softly sings to Jack, that is another moment of Ennis's freedom of spirit -- an intimate connection and a revealing of himself so rare in his tragically repressed self.)
ks / kathy
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Thanks Kathy.
That smile in the 'prayer of thanks' scene: priceless.
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Thanks Kathy.
That smile in the 'prayer of thanks' scene: priceless.
;) Oh you floor me.
ks