Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: chameau on Jan 08, 2006, 06:35 PM
-
What about Cassie Cartwright?
This character played by Linda Cardellini is not seen that much but it's another fine piece of acting. Linda did a great job and her last scene with Ennis was very interesting and moving. She was obviously in love with Ennis. What do you think?
-
So glad you started this thread. I considered her to be the female equivalent of Jack. She obviously felt a connection with him that she didn't feel for the "Carl" character she was with in the last scene with Ennis - when Ennis said he wasn't any fun anyway, she replied "girls don't fall in love with fun." That was so touching.
-
What about Cassie Cartwright?
This character played by Linda Cardellini is not seen that much but it's another fine piece of acting. Linda did a great job and her last scene with Ennis was very interesting and moving. She was obviously in love with Ennis. What do you think?
She is a great cameleon...and a good actress too...
"Legally Blonde"
"ER"
"Scooby Doo"...not the best movie ever...but she pulled it off!
"BBM"
-
What about Cassie Cartwright?
This character played by Linda Cardellini is not seen that much but it's another fine piece of acting. Linda did a great job and her last scene with Ennis was very interesting and moving. She was obviously in love with Ennis. What do you think?
She is a great cameleon...and a good actress too...
"Legally Blonde"
"ER"
"Scooby Doo"...not the best movie ever...but she pulled it off!
"BBM"
Who was she in Legally Blonde?
-
I considered her to be the female equivalent of Jack.
This is brilliant! :o
-
Who was she in Legally Blonde?
She played Chutney Windham
-
Who was she in Legally Blonde?
She played Chutney Windham
Woah she totally did!
Thanks ;D
-
What was Cassie's purpose in the film version? I still haven't figured out what she tells us about Ennis. Some folks on the IMDB board believe it shows that Ennis knows Jack is the love of his life, and he's not willing to go on hurting anyone else who may want to be with him when he doesn't want to be with them. Others believe she's just a mask so the repressed gay Ennis can feel comfortable in heterosexual society. In the story at least, I took it as some evidence that Ennis might NOT be gay - perhaps what one witty poster called "Jacksexual."
In the story, it seems that the character (unnamed, by the way) was just sexual release for Ennis - or a fib Ennis tells Jack as part of the entire "I'm not no queer" dynamic between them (I don't buy that one so much - not after 20 years AND Ennis, unlike Jack, is generally seen to be the more *truthful* of the two).
Anyway, I digress. My question is, story-wise or symbol-wise, what does Cassie do for the film's story?
-
What was Cassie's purpose in the film version? I still haven't figured out what she tells us about Ennis. Some folks on the IMDB board believe it shows that Ennis knows Jack is the love of his life, and he's not willing to go on hurting anyone else who may want to be with him when he doesn't want to be with them. Others believe she's just a mask so the repressed gay Ennis can feel comfortable in heterosexual society. In the story at least, I took it as some evidence that Ennis might NOT be gay - perhaps what one witty poster called "Jacksexual."
In the story, it seems that the character (unnamed, by the way) was just sexual release for Ennis - or a fib Ennis tells Jack as part of the entire "I'm not no queer" dynamic between them (I don't buy that one so much - not after 20 years AND Ennis, unlike Jack, is generally seen to be the more *truthful* of the two).
Anyway, I digress. My question is, story-wise or symbol-wise, what does Cassie do for the film's story?
Well, my take on it, as I alluded to earlier, is that I believe she had some qualities of Jack - pursuing him early on - when he was leaving, she introduced himself and made him dance with her; then there's the scene with Alma Jr. showing that she was very interested in pursuing more of a permanent relationship with him, telling him her aspirations about going to nursing school etc., then the last scene where she breaks down (just like Jack confronting Ennis about their relationship) and says girls don't fall in love with fun. I got a bit choked up at that scene. She knew at that point that there was "no understanding him," and no prospect with him.
-
Ennis is in love with Jack and wouldn't have given Cassie the time of day if she hadn't thrown herself at him. I feel sorry for her but anyone could tell that that one wasn't going anywhere. She was too easy and Ennis doesn't go for easy; likes it rough and tumble, a little spit and blood, whiskey and mud get his juices going. Bust his nose and he'll follow you like a puppy... if you're Jack Twist. If not, forget it Sister.
Jim
-
Cassie shows us that Ennis is content being alone in life. She instigates every interaction they have and she is a straight cover for him as well. She is also the one who lets Alma Jr show us she has her dad's stoic quality ("Well, you don't say much" when she asks Alma if her father will get married again.). Cassie is in the film at the same time Jack has the new ranch hand buddy in Texas...parallel stories of how Ennis and Jack live apart coping without each other. The larger question of the men being homosexual or not is a great topic for thought. The artistry of the film focuses on the spiritual connection between two people who happen to be of the same gender...maybe we are way beyond orientation labels here. I really don't know.
-
Thanks for sharing, very interesting post. ;)
-
What is your take on how long Cassie knew Ennis before she decided she wanted him to marry her? It seemed like a rushed decision , she was a girl in a big hurry, as when she picked him up. Obviously she didn't know Ennis very well, the attraction seemed sexual and superficial. Even if Ennis wasn't in a state of numbness because of his situation and love for Jack, would this marriage have had much chance of success if he had married Cassie? Or did I miss timeline clues here as to the length and depth of the relationship? Cassie just seemed a little on the "lite" side to me, but in a big hurry to get married, if not to Ennis, then perhaps to Carl, the next guy to come along. Or did I get this wrong?
-
What is your take on how long Cassie knew Ennis before she decided she wanted him to marry her? It seemed like a rushed decision , she was a girl in a big hurry, as when she picked him up. Obviously she didn't know Ennis very well, the attraction seemed sexual and superficial. Even if Ennis wasn't in a state of numbness because of his situation and love for Jack, would this marriage have had much chance of success if he had married Cassie? Or did I miss timeline clues here as to the length and depth of the relationship? Cassie just seemed a little on the "lite" side to me, but in a big hurry to get married, if not to Ennis, then perhaps to Carl, the next guy to come along. Or did I get this wrong?
I must see BBM again to recall her exact words. At the end of their last scene, she made a very clear statement: She fell in love with Ennis.
-
Anyway, I digress. My question is, story-wise or symbol-wise, what does Cassie do for the film's story?
Cassie (I think her character is in the film going on 5 years) is similar to Jack as mentioned above..she brings Ennis out of himself (she is always instigating--foot rub, you're staying up cowboy, all the notes she left) and she loves him. Her character also counterbalances the character of the Ranch Foreman that Jack has the affair with. I think Cassie's main purpose is that she confirms to Ennis (the island) that he cannot accept or know how to accept love other than Jack's...he actually apologizes to her over the Apple Pie---maybe he is apologizing to Jack here...does he apologize to anyone else prior to this point in the story? McMurtry and Ossana were smart to add her...I think..
-
Shamus said in the Logo show that she sort of represents Ennis trying to make things work, meaning a conventional life, after really just messing things up with Alma and all that etc. She is sort of his last try, and it doesn't work *obviously*.
-
I agree with the previous posts that Cassie was a way to show that Ennis was still trying, in a way, to follow society's rules and maintain a straight relationship. I disagree that he was content being alone. Notice that it was Alma that refused sex and Alma that most likely initiated the divorce. She hooks up with the store clerk soon after. It always appears to be the women in Ennis' life that hold the reins of the relationship, so to speak. That is until the argument on the mountain with Jack. It's at that time Ennis seems to see that Jack is truly the only one for him. It's then that the thought of another man in Jack's life is too much. We don't see Cassie after that until she sees Ennis eating pie. It is then we learn that Ennis has not returned any communication with Cassie for some time. On a side note, it can be insinuated that for the first time Ennis initiated a meeting with Jack -- a postcard/letter marked "DECEASED" is returned to sender, not the other way around. This makes it all the more sad for me.
It's clear that Cassie fell in love with Ennis but when she sees him in the diner eating pie it's obvious that she's looking at a man who has had a hard time of it. It's all he can muster to say "I'm sorry." When Cassie is crying I am not sure if she's crying for herself or for Ennis. She's obviously hurt but Ennis' tortured soul is starting to wear through to the outside and even if Cassie doesn't know what is at the root of it all she clearly sees something in his appearance. "I don't get you, Ennis Del Mar." That scene is very powerful to me because it really shows how Ennis is falling deeper and deeper into stoic lonliness.
-
Ennis is in love with Jack and wouldn't have given Cassie the time of day if she hadn't thrown herself at him. I feel sorry for her but anyone could tell that that one wasn't going anywhere.
I agree. At some point Ennis tells Jack that she had problems but thats not reall the point. I dont think he'd ever be disloyal to his one true love, especially with a woman. I think he'd outgrown women. Lacy
-
To me, it seems pretty obvious. The viewers are being offered the idea that Ennis truly was a gay man, and in love with Jack for life. Here a gorgeous, sexy, fun girl, in short, a straight man's ultimate fantasy, presents herself to Ennis on a silver platter, yet, despite her willingness and her candour at making the first move (meaning there is little more for Ennis to do other than accept), he STILL cannot commit himself to a woman.
Maybe he realizes on some subconscious level (I tend to believe all of Ennis's realizations are subconscious!) that he simply cannot enter another heterosexual behaviour and hurt himself and the woman in the way he hurt his own marriage.
In my opinion, we are being told that while Ennis has the ability for women to fall in love with him, he simply is incapable of loving a woman truly and completely, because of his own sexuality and because of Jack Twist.
-
To me, it seems pretty obvious. The viewers are being offered the idea that Ennis truly was a gay man, and in love with Jack for life. Here a gorgeous, sexy, fun girl, in short, a straight man's ultimate fantasy, presents herself to Ennis on a silver platter, yet, despite her willingness and her candour at making the first move (meaning there is little more for Ennis to do other than accept), he STILL cannot commit himself to a woman.
Maybe he realizes on some subconscious level (I tend to believe all of Ennis's realizations are subconscious!) that he simply cannot enter another heterosexual behaviour and hurt himself and the woman in the way he hurt his own marriage.
In my opinion, we are being told that while Ennis has the ability for women to fall in love with him, he simply is incapable of loving a woman truly and completely, because of his own sexuality and because of Jack Twist.
Welcome DrKeith.
I think Ennis loved Alma in a special way (at least in the beginning, before trust was betrayed.) But he was not complete with her. Too many unfulfilled desires and longings. He needed Jack. Jack was the only one.
I think he pitied Cassie in a way. He did not hate her. But I think he did not love her. Most of all, he was in fear that he was going to hurt another person by allowing them to be emotionally attached to him. It was partly to protect her that he tried to keep his distance.
Ennis knew it could ONLY be Jack. Ennis knew it could NEVER be Jack. There lies the tragedy of it all.
-
I think, Cassie should symbolize "normal" everyday life. She is pretty but not a beauty, she is nice but not fulfilling....
To reject her means to be definitely an outsider living in your own world - where there is only Jack and nobody else in Ennis' heart
In the final dialogue with Cassie he definitely knows that every single world will hurt her - he wants to get rid of her, to meet her regulalry before was his last attempt to lead a normal life. As soon as he knew that it won't work he terminates the relationship
-
Yes, I think he tried to make it work with Cassie, but it didn't, just like the rancher never "came to pass" for Jack.
-
:-\
-
I considered her to be the female equivalent of Jack.
This is brilliant! :o
I agree. She was gregarious and uninhibited, like Jack. I like to watch Ennis's amusement at Jack's freedom. I see this when he is with Cassie. It is almost like he can live vacariously through the observation of others who really live their lives. He has a little smile when she drags him off to the dance floor and when she throws her feet up on his lap. Notice also when he is at the bar with Cassie, he says something like, "I hope I don't have to dance anymore." He doesn't say he will not dance anymore, almost like he loses his own will and inhibition when in the company of this type of person.
I kind of hope that he rekindles at least a friendship with Cassie after Jack's death, because she like Jack is a breath of fresh air to Ennis. - Nancy
-
Yeah I like Cassie. Ennis does too, but just can't give her what she needs.
-
Thinking about Cassie I feel some pain :-
She seems so sure in her approach to Ennis but she didn't know that his heart will never be her...
She appears also so genuine when she speaks to Alma Jr...
Cassie is another Ennis victim...
-
Ennis was one hell of a heartbreaker!!! ;)
-
What man wouldn't surrender to an attractive woman who's constantly around him and showing him she's willing to start a relationship?
A man who's already in love. And that's Ennis' case, he's in love with Jack. And, as someone said on a previous post, he realised about that during his last meeting with Jack in the mountain, when they had the big argument. He couldn't stand the thought of Jack being, not with another woman, but with another man.
And I also agree that he didn't want to hurt her and that's why he tried to avoid contact with her.
-
What i love about this forum is the opening of my eyes to aspects of the story i'd not even realised i was unsure about or hadn't worked tru.
thank you.
For me Cassie represents aspects of Jack , even to the extent one of the first things Ennis says to her is " WHAT YOU DOING"--- echoes of 1st tent scene.
But also she makes it clear that even if a warm ,loving, fun person wanted to take Ennis and all his flaws , he can't give what she needs . It says again how caught they both are --- Ennis would have a half life with Cassie ,as Jack would with Randall. I understand why he would want to be with her ---especially the loneliness.
But i also think Cassie recognises something in Ennis that suggests he could be capable of great love --- i think thats what i "fell in love" with on the screen. One purpose she served for me was to identify how, as a woman, you could fall in love with Ennis.
I agree with so many that Ennis realises how unfair it is being with her at the "breakdown scene." So he disappears. I think he knows that by leaving Cassie he is actively chosing Jack in a more explicit way than he usually lets himself realise.
As the sceen play says --- when she leaves him in the diner --- She knows she's not the answer.
-
I like when she enters the diner, she recognizes Ennis by his cough. When she leaves, she pushes Carl off of her at the door.
-
I often wondered about that cough. Ennis is so obviously trying to avoid her. Couldn't he have somehow suppressed it. Or maybe he coughed on purpose, so he could get the inevitable over with, with little effort on his part.
I think Ennis's feelings of jealousy during his last meeting with Jack may have made him redefine monogamy. It now included women as well as men. His last meeting with Jack probably intensified his feelings once more, so that it did not feel good to be with Cassie. Also, because he can get by on a couple high altitude f***s a year, he didn't need her. I think he truly felt bad. I don't think he will ever enter into another relationship again, because he realizes his heart belongs to Jack and Jack only and I don't think he really enjoys hurting people. I give him credit for that. I know plenty of men who could care less if they broke a woman's heart. He is definitely the kind of man I could fall in love with.
-
I often wondered about that cough. Ennis is so obviously trying to avoid her. Couldn't he have somehow suppressed it. Or maybe he coughed on purpose, so he could get the inevitable over with, with little effort on his part.
I think Ennis's feelings of jealousy during his last meeting with Jack may have made him redefine monogamy. It now included women as well as men. His last meeting with Jack probably intensified his feelings once more, so that it did not feel good to be with Cassie. Also, because he can get by on a couple high altitude f***s a year, he didn't need her. I think he truly felt bad. I don't think he will ever enter into another relationship again, because he realizes his heart belongs to Jack and Jack only and I don't think he really enjoys hurting people. I give him credit for that. I know plenty of men who could care less if they broke a woman's heart. He is definitely the kind of man I could fall in love with.
I am not so sure Ennis's feelings for Jack had much if anything to do with Cassie.
Alma let Ennis know she knew about him and Jack even though he thought he was being careful.
Then we see Ennis and Jack camping and Ennis displays his growing paranoia. "Things are normal with you and Lureen?" "She don't suspect? (like Alma did?) "People look at you like they know?"
Ennis meets Cassie (she throws herself at him) but it is obvious he is not interested. She has to drag him to the dance floor. She has to tell him she is looking for a foot rub. He is not acting like a normal red-blooded American male with a hot chick in front of him. When Casie, Ennis and Alma are together Ennis doesn't ask Cassie to dance, she drags him once again to the dance floor. Alma Jr. notices there is no enthusiasm on Ennis's part for this relationship. It is as if Ennis is just going through this because society expects it. Ennis doesn't want this relationship because suppose Cassie finds out about him and Jack the same way Alma somehow did.
Jack and Ennis go on their last camping trip, something happens and Ennis decides he can't risk someone else (Cassie) finding out so he drops her.
While I haven't come to any strong conclusions (and most of you know how strong some of my conclusions can be ;D ) this whole Cassie thing was there to show us how Ennis's paranoia and [blank] was building. I left the word blank because I couldn't find the word I wanted to use in the dictionary. I think I am about to invent a new word. The word to fit into the [blank] is sociophobia. I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that Ennis wasn't afraid of homosexuals or homosexuality (homophobia), he was afraid of society. That is why he did everything society expected of him even though what it expected was disastrous for him. But he just couldn't bring himself to marry Cassie and risk hurting her, like Alma, and having her also find out about him.
-
I don't think it is his fear of being found out, I think Ennis cannot show affection, that he doesn't feel. He doesn't have that lust for empty sexual encounters, that Jack seems to have. He can't even make love to his wife anymore, because of Jack.
I think the term you wre looking for may have been social phobia? When people feel a profound sense of guilt and shame, they often withdraw from society unable to look anyone in the eye sort of speaking. I think that is the case with Ennis. Not only does he feel the guilt and shame of his sexuality, but the most important aspect of his life must remain a secret. He can't share any of his feelings, more importantly his grief later, with anyone. This is a terrible burden to bare.
-
I don't think it is his fear of being found out, I think Ennis cannot show affection, that he doesn't feel. He doesn't have that lust for empty sexual encounters, that Jack seems to have. He can't even make love to his wife anymore, because of Jack.
I don't think that is true Nancy. On the night Alma decided to divorce him he was trying to get a little. She was the one to turn him off. "I'll have 'em if you'll support 'em.
-
I guess you are right. Although he may have been going through the motions, because that is what is expected of him and to continue to feign his heterosexuality. He seemed pretty happy/relieved to leave her alone. I don't know too many men who would not have sex simply because their wives don't want anymore children. ?????????
-
I guess you are right. Although he may have been going through the motions, because that is what is expected of him and to continue to feign his heterosexuality. He seemed pretty happy/relieved to leave her alone. I don't know too many men who would not have sex simply because their wives don't want anymore children. ?????????
I don't think he stopped having sex because she didn't want any more children. I think he stopped having sex because she had insulted him by saying he was not a good provider.
-
I think that was his excuse not to have sex with her anymore. I think he simply didn't want to, but your interpretation is interesting. I hate to admit that I initiate sex with my husband frequentlyeven when I don't particularly need it, because I know that the initiative is important to him. He just happens to have a stronger sex drive than me, and it is important to him to feel desired.
-
I think that was his excuse not to have sex with her anymore. I think he simply didn't want to, but your interpretation is interesting. I hate to admit that I initiate sex with my husband frequentlyeven when I don't particularly need it, because I know that the initiative is important to him. He just happens to have a stronger sex drive than me, and it is important to him to feel desired.
Lets face it. If he didn't want to have sex with her because of Jack, he could continue to do to Alma what he has been doing right along...rolling her over and pretending it is Jack.
-
I guess, I am too much of a romantic. I want to believe that sex and love need to be linked. This movie has put romantic notions in my head. Foolish, I guess.
-
I hate to admit that I initiate sex with my husband frequently even when I don't particularly need it, because I know that the initiative is important to him. He just happens to have a stronger sex drive than me, and it is important to him to feel desired.
I wonder if sex is necessary to feel desired. Now that I am 60 and nothing works any more, what would make me feel desired is intimate hold, hugging, kissing, carressing. Come to think of it, when I was young and everything worked I would have preferred that.
The second tent scene was more of a turn on (not arousal) than the first tent scene for me. The intimacy, the affection and the fondling were so nice. And it wasn't mad and passionate. It was tender and caring. That made it a real turn on.
-
The second tent scene was more of a turn on (not arousal) than the first tent scene for me. The intimacy, the affection and the fondling were so nice. And it wasn't mad and passionate. It was tender and caring. That made it a real turn on.
I agree. Unlike the first tent scene, the second one is truly a love scene.
-
I wonder if sex is necessary to feel desired. Now that I am 60 and nothing works any more, what would make me feel desired is intimate hold, hugging, kissing, carressing. Come to think of it, when I was young and everything worked I would have preferred that.
The second tent scene was more of a turn on (not arousal) than the first tent scene for me.
I wish my husband would see it this way. The second tent scene was very erotic! Much more so than the first, I would agree.
-
What possible clue did Ennis give Cassie or any other woman, after Jack, to encourage her to have any feelings for him at all?
He didn't approach her, she approached him. He didn't want to dance, she wanted to dance. He was drowning his sorrows, not looking for romance.
Ennis was not available and her behavior was so typical of a woman making a fool of herself by throwing herself at an unavailable man. And, boy did it happen in the 70's. This scene was a revelation to me as I recall the numerous encounters I had with men just like Ennis. But at that time, I had no clue. Like Cassie, my feelings were hurt, as I thought it was me, my fault. It wasn't about me at all, unless I wanted to take responsibility and fix my perceptions and expectations. The man was in serious emotional turmoil and in love with someone else, and very likely with another man. In those days, it never crossed our minds, unless the man showed obvious feminine behaviors. Ennis doesn't give a clue as to his preference. Some women think all they have to do is appear in front of a man to start the desire and relationship rolling. And, if it doesn't roll, some don't give up. Then blame the man, like Cassie did, when it doesn't work. Good grief. A man who is in love with another man is just filling minutes, passing time, tolerating life. He is literally not present. This is brutal to clueless women.
Her tortured statement should be a wake up call for every woman alive, "...women don't fall in love with fun."
That's too bad, that's also her problem. Not his.
Maybe men do, Cassie. Knock it off. Go away. She was making me sick. But it was a profound awakening for me. I was ready to find a building to throw up next to. Ladies, let's stop making fools of ourselves. Don't fall in love until you know the guy and you are both on the same page... and having FUN.
That is exactly why men don't fall in love with most women... they are no fun. Jack and Ennis had fun. Their friendship grew into desire which grew into a deep, everlasting mutual love grounded in peace, youth, beauty, inspiration... and fun. In comparison, it made Cassie and Alma look like drips... nagging, carping, whining, needy, never satisfied, judgemental drips who didn't pay attention and didn't fix themselves. There is nothing to love about them. So, they each found a man where their only talent worked... just show up. That's not love. That's filling time and fooling yourself.
Just what Ennis was doing.
So what made Cassie believe she was in love? Just her self sided, one sided desire and her attraction to his handsome good looks. Cassie, that's not love. You don't even know who he is.
Did Carl deserve to be walked away from so she could scold another man in public who didn't perform to her liking? You know what? A lonely man needs to be out among people too. but leave him be... or care... but leave your expectations at the door.
There were many profound moments in this movie. Her portrayal of the clueless, sexy woman in the 70's was perfectly done with a great lesson to all would listen, in our face as well as in Ennis's.
By this time, I cared so much about Ennis, it's his pain I felt, not hers. But he apologizes to her!!! She should have been ashamed. Ennis didn't do one thing to deserve her abuse. NOt one thing. She led him around, baited him constantly, and got mad when he didn't bite. He couldn't sort it all out.
Remember when Jack seduced Ennis and ENNIS apologized to him the next evening? Ennis was such a victim, but ever the gentleman. I guess he can't help being lovable. Even in his raging bull moments. The only one who could rein him in (but not totally) was Jack... recall the symbolic rope scene... priceless.
Friendless and unable to trust anyone except for Alma Jr, Ennis begins to live like a stick. He is in his words, nothing, nowhere. He is unable to fix it and barely able to stand it. He's getting the medicine he gave to Jack, the one person in the world who knew him and loved him heart and soul.
I have never seen two men grow in love and then consummate it. I have never seen two men in love kiss.
I was mesmerized, transfixed. It was so real, so natural. I love them. This movie is not only about two men in love, it is an expose on how dull women can be in comparison. Men love men differently than they love women. Men can be rougher with men and they have more fun together with the roughhousing and wrestling... seems to be more of a sharing quality on all levels.
"I don't get you Ennis," Cassie said.
That's it. Exactly right. From the get go, Cassie.
Here's to fun and friendship... love and peace...
Tamlynn
-
Great analysis, tamlynn! Certainly a new twist on Cassie's motive and naivete. Would love to hear your opinions on the other threads :cr)
-
Wow, tamlynn -- so very well-stated. I never saw Cassie in that light before, but it surely fits. Great idea!
-
Wow, tamlynn -- so very well-stated. I never saw Cassie in that light before, but it surely fits. Great idea!
Ditto. Ditto. I've never paid much attention to Cassie before, but you've certainly opened my eyes.
jackster
-
What possible clue did Ennis give Cassie or any other woman, after Jack, to encourage her to have any feelings for him at all?
He didn't approach her, she approached him. He didn't want to dance, she wanted to dance. He was drowning his sorrows, not looking for romance.
Ennis was not available and her behavior was so typical of a woman making a fool of herself by throwing herself at an unavailable man. And, boy did it happen in the 70's. This scene was a revelation to me as I recall the numerous encounters I had with men just like Ennis. But at that time, I had no clue. Like Cassie, my feelings were hurt, as I thought it was me, my fault. It wasn't about me at all, unless I wanted to take responsibility and fix my perceptions and expectations. The man was in serious emotional turmoil and in love with someone else, and very likely with another man. In those days, it never crossed our minds, unless the man showed obvious feminine behaviors. Ennis doesn't give a clue as to his preference. Some women think all they have to do is appear in front of a man to start the desire and relationship rolling. And, if it doesn't roll, some don't give up. Then blame the man, like Cassie did, when it doesn't work. Good grief. A man who is in love with another man is just filling minutes, passing time, tolerating life. He is literally not present. This is brutal to clueless women.
Her tortured statement should be a wake up call for every woman alive, "...women don't fall in love with fun."
That's too bad, that's also her problem. Not his.
Maybe men do, Cassie. Knock it off. Go away. She was making me sick. But it was a profound awakening for me. I was ready to find a building to throw up next to. Ladies, let's stop making fools of ourselves. Don't fall in love until you know the guy and you are both on the same page... and having FUN.
That is exactly why men don't fall in love with most women... they are no fun. Jack and Ennis had fun. Their friendship grew into desire which grew into a deep, everlasting mutual love grounded in peace, youth, beauty, inspiration... and fun. In comparison, it made Cassie and Alma look like drips... nagging, carping, whining, needy, never satisfied, judgemental drips who didn't pay attention and didn't fix themselves. There is nothing to love about them. So, they each found a man where their only talent worked... just show up. That's not love. That's filling time and fooling yourself.
Just what Ennis was doing.
So what made Cassie believe she was in love? Just her self sided, one sided desire and her attraction to his handsome good looks. Cassie, that's not love. You don't even know who he is.
Did Carl deserve to be walked away from so she could scold another man in public who didn't perform to her liking? You know what? A lonely man needs to be out among people too. but leave him be... or care... but leave your expectations at the door.
There were many profound moments in this movie. Her portrayal of the clueless, sexy woman in the 70's was perfectly done with a great lesson to all would listen, in our face as well as in Ennis's.
By this time, I cared so much about Ennis, it's his pain I felt, not hers. But he apologizes to her!!! She should have been ashamed. Ennis didn't do one thing to deserve her abuse. NOt one thing. She led him around, baited him constantly, and got mad when he didn't bite. He couldn't sort it all out.
Remember when Jack seduced Ennis and ENNIS apologized to him the next evening? Ennis was such a victim, but ever the gentleman. I guess he can't help being lovable. Even in his raging bull moments. The only one who could rein him in (but not totally) was Jack... recall the symbolic rope scene... priceless.
Friendless and unable to trust anyone except for Alma Jr, Ennis begins to live like a stick. He is in his words, nothing, nowhere. He is unable to fix it and barely able to stand it. He's getting the medicine he gave to Jack, the one person in the world who knew him and loved him heart and soul.
I have never seen two men grow in love and then consummate it. I have never seen two men in love kiss.
I was mesmerized, transfixed. It was so real, so natural. I love them. This movie is not only about two men in love, it is an expose on how dull women can be in comparison. Men love men differently than they love women. Men can be rougher with men and they have more fun together with the roughhousing and wrestling... seems to be more of a sharing quality on all levels.
"I don't get you Ennis," Cassie said.
That's it. Exactly right. From the get go, Cassie.
Here's to fun and friendship... love and peace...
Tamlynn
Thanks you so much, Tamlynn.
In a way, Cassi'e love for Ennis was doomed from the start, and perhaps she sensed it soone enough. But you know, when one is in love, one is powerless to reason or confront the basic reality. In a sense, we can't blame Cassie or other women for persisting. Sometimes, we are just playthings that the God of Love plays with and then casts aside.
And I do believe that Ennis was not completely passive when it came to Cassie and Jack. For example, Jack did not just impose his desires on Ennis. Ennis at that point already desired Jack. We should not that in the FNIT, it was Ennis who took the active role, and not the passive one.
The same with Cassie. There was a part of Ennis that wanted to play the game, even though he knew that Cassie was bound to be hurt in the long run. Ennis did not go wntirely uunwilling with Cassie. For Ennis and Jack, relationships with women were essential for keeping cover, and perhaps both genuinely believed that it was requisite to have female lovers, if only to convince themselves that they were not entirely of one preference. The cost in human emotion and hurt in the long run was probably not completely realized. But I do think that in the end, Cassie is indeed a tragic figure. He is a victim to her own love as well as a victim of ENnis's emotional confusion. I don't think Ennis intentionally wanted to hurt her. But he should have known that, given where his true love lay, this was inevitable.
-
Hi tpe, you are right on with Cassie.
I do think that Ennis only took an active role in pursuing his relationship with Jack after the FNIT. I still believe Ennis was aggressively manipulated into place by Jack the first night. I think Ennis had feelings for him, but would never act on them because of his homophobic upbringing, without Jack's guidance and proactive initiation. Ennis took an 'active' role the first night as a REaction to Jack's aggressive manipulation. It was Jack who actively and brilliantly broke down the sexual barriers. Therefore, wasn't Jack the aggressive one? does it matter who effed who? naw... Ennis responded exactly as Jack actively strategized he would.
It was Jack's finest sales job, a career he went on to excel at. In sales, we sell ourselves, with words and timing to convince others to trust us and listen and do what we want them to do. This is what Jack did. Of course, it helped that they were beginning to care about each other. But it was Jack who masterminded the timing, the event, without getting decked by Goliath and without losing the moment. Not an easy thing to do with a man like Ennis. It could have gone any one of three ways, if it weren't for Jack's awesome timing and manipulation. He was going to get punched, rejected or f----d. Jack took risks, aggressively.
I can't take that away from Jack. Ennis was better at everything else... shooting, cooking, work ethic... but Jack manipulated this straight as an arrow cowboy aggressively into place on Brokeback and he broke through the resistance and succeeded. Brilliant acting by Jake. Only the sexiest man on the planet could do what Jake did.
Jack controlled him on that mountain. Ennis controlled Jack off the mountain forever after. Because Jack sold out. He could not extend his extraordinary powers over the long term. So urgent was his need to be with Ennis, Ennis played him like a fiddle. He had no confidence to do what it would take to rein in Ennis permanently.
Notice how good Jack was at selling himself and big items... once. This was his expertise. How many tractors will one farmer buy in 5-10 years. 1? And, Jack sold many farmers one tractor. Awesome talent and gift that he repeated over and over. (To Jack's credit, he could have repeated his power of seduction on many a cowboy over and over, but remained true to his love for Ennis, at least for many years. How wearing for a man like Jack who could have had any number of fulfilling relationships. No doubt, he loved Ennis, heart and soul. But, Ennis had one barrier Jack could never break down.)
applying this concept to his relationship with Ennis, he sold the big ticket on the mountain short term, but he was at Ennis's mercy for the long term. he never convinced him that they should be together always... until he died. Sad that it took death to finally get Ennis past the homophobic barrier. unless he's not dead. Would he go so far as to fake his death to convince Ennis how important their love is and break down the last barrier? Absolutely. That's Jack's area of expertise... the Big Sell, the one shot deal.
Thanks, for making me think more, tpe... I learn new things all the time... hoping for a sequel and happy ending...
Tamlynn
-
I do think that Ennis only took an active role in pursuing his relationship with Jack after the FNIT. . . . .
tamlynn. You’ve made some really interesting insights here going way beyond just Cassie. The whole thing about “salesman Jack” is something I’ve never thought about.
Kinda’ OT but something I’ve always wondered about yet haven’t seen discussed and you hit upon it here is your mention of Ennis being “aggressively manipulated” by Jack FNIT. My question is - what about Ennis’s earlier comment on the coyote’s “Balls as big as apples” and then later doing his “private chores” (aka bathing) right there in full view of Jack preparing supper? This always struck me a strange comment, I don’t hunt but I know a lot of hunters, I’ve NEVER heard the size of an animal referred to by the size of its testicles (except in science books). Where the heck did that come from? Both these events seem to me a not so subtle effort by Ennis to bring sex or sexuality (and specifically male sexuality) into their daily lives. Almost goading Jack on, like “here it is buddy, wanna some of this?”. And then to top it off with that “you may be a sinner, but I ain’t had the opportunity” – come on Ennis, who do you think your foolin’ here? To me after all this prelude, “the move” FNIT by Jack comes as little surprise, just MHO. Sorry if this is way off the Cassie thread.
-
Hi Jackster,
I tend to think the balls comment, the nude Ennis scene were all innocent, not sexual. typical farmboy talk. They all talk that way. he was just being a guy around a guy. but maybe jack thought he was being goaded, now that i think about his deliberate focus on the potatoes he was peeling, very cool, very guarded. Was he measuring the situation? was he saying to himself "am i being tempted? Is he testing me? I'm not going to blow this. I'm sticking to my plan, and I have one. This has to be done right. I love this guy and I'm gonna get him. And the way to do that is not to appear attracted." He didn't want to blow it by making a move or even take a look right then... not quite ready yet. A beautiful scene... Jake Gyllenhaal at his best.
now the i haven't yet had the opportunity comment... i have to think more on that. could ennis just be trying to be funny? Such a quiet guy. But your comment makes me think and wonder...
But still, Ennis was ready to rage when he woke up in FNIT, he was shocked, confused, angry. He just didn't say, ahhh, I thought you'd never try... no, he was enraged. Jack's timing was brilliant... he didn't get socked and he didn't let Ennis go back to sleep... he ripped his jacket off and Ennis bit the bait. He was completely under Jack's control... Jack using calculation and timing turned Ennis's rage into sexual frenzy. not every man could have pulled that off with homophobic Ennis.
Back to the Cassie thread... he was completely bored... but always excited to see Jack. No woman would ever put up with his disappearing act, especially the older he got and considering the women in his age group also aging and getting wiser.
-
There's certainly some interesting controversies going on here. Everyone makes some real good points and the truth is up to each one of us to decide upon. I always felt Jack was the dominant and most agressive of the two where sex comes into play. Ennis may be on top, but Jack gets him there by hook or by crook.
I agree with tamlynn that Jack feigned disinterest in Ennis until the FNIT (I think that's what she said). So much talk had passed between the two, but I don't think it was intentionally sexual until FNIT when Jack makes his move on Ennis.
When you're around young men, the kind of talk Ennis and Jack engaged in seems pretty typical to me. I don't think Ennis had any hidden agenda. However, this is all up to debate.
Later on in the relationship, Ennis shows his dominance through his stubborness and fears, but early on, I think Jack takes things in hand and jumpstarts the affair.
-
Hi tpe, you are right on with Cassie.
I do think that Ennis only took an active role in pursuing his relationship with Jack after the FNIT. I still believe Ennis was aggressively manipulated into place by Jack the first night. I think Ennis had feelings for him, but would never act on them because of his homophobic upbringing, without Jack's guidance and proactive initiation. Ennis took an 'active' role the first night as a REaction to Jack's aggressive manipulation. It was Jack who actively and brilliantly broke down the sexual barriers. Therefore, wasn't Jack the aggressive one? does it matter who effed who? naw... Ennis responded exactly as Jack actively strategized he would.
It was Jack's finest sales job, a career he went on to excel at. In sales, we sell ourselves, with words and timing to convince others to trust us and listen and do what we want them to do. This is what Jack did. Of course, it helped that they were beginning to care about each other. But it was Jack who masterminded the timing, the event, without getting decked by Goliath and without losing the moment. Not an easy thing to do with a man like Ennis. It could have gone any one of three ways, if it weren't for Jack's awesome timing and manipulation. He was going to get punched, rejected or f----d. Jack took risks, aggressively.
I can't take that away from Jack. Ennis was better at everything else... shooting, cooking, work ethic... but Jack manipulated this straight as an arrow cowboy aggressively into place on Brokeback and he broke through the resistance and succeeded. Brilliant acting by Jake. Only the sexiest man on the planet could do what Jake did.
Jack controlled him on that mountain. Ennis controlled Jack off the mountain forever after. Because Jack sold out. He could not extend his extraordinary powers over the long term. So urgent was his need to be with Ennis, Ennis played him like a fiddle. He had no confidence to do what it would take to rein in Ennis permanently.
Notice how good Jack was at selling himself and big items... once. This was his expertise. How many tractors will one farmer buy in 5-10 years. 1? And, Jack sold many farmers one tractor. Awesome talent and gift that he repeated over and over. (To Jack's credit, he could have repeated his power of seduction on many a cowboy over and over, but remained true to his love for Ennis, at least for many years. How wearing for a man like Jack who could have had any number of fulfilling relationships. No doubt, he loved Ennis, heart and soul. But, Ennis had one barrier Jack could never break down.)
applying this concept to his relationship with Ennis, he sold the big ticket on the mountain short term, but he was at Ennis's mercy for the long term. he never convinced him that they should be together always... until he died. Sad that it took death to finally get Ennis past the homophobic barrier. unless he's not dead. Would he go so far as to fake his death to convince Ennis how important their love is and break down the last barrier? Absolutely. That's Jack's area of expertise... the Big Sell, the one shot deal.
Thanks, for making me think more, tpe... I learn new things all the time... hoping for a sequel and happy ending...
Tamlynn
Well argued, Tamlynn. It is true that Jack handled Ennis brilliantly up on Brokeback in 63. Ennis would have proved a difficult lover, if only for his reluctance to act directly on his own feelings. And it is true that Ennis was more in control thereafter. I guess I differ a bit on the view that Ennis was simply clay in the hands of Jack in 63, because I think Jack would have withdrawn if he detwected the slightest rebuff from Ennis. But this diffference in opinion does not negate some basic truths you say here.
I find the analogy with sales very interesting. After all, Jack was trying to sell Ennis a concept -- an idea of a sweet life that both could enjoy if only they were willing to shoulder the risk. I suspect that there is more truth in this analogy than meets the eye. But the tragedy of it all is that unlike most salesmen, Jack was putting himself on the line -- his own happiness hung on the balance. A good salesman would always put some distance between what he is selling and himself -- he cannot afford to be too attached or consumed by the object at hand. And Jack indeed violates this by predicating his emotional future onto this idea, and he suffers deeply as a consequence.
A similar thing can be said of Cassie, but to a lesser extent. Cassie realized sooner than Jack that she could not predicate her happiness to the uncertainties that dominate the object of her affections. It did not lessen the pain, but we know that she spared herself a great deal of pain. Perhaps because ashe had other dreams, other wishes that lay in wait to be fulfilled. Like Jack, she tried to sell Ennis a vision of a second life of love. She failed, but perhaps saved herself in the long run. Like good salesmen, she knew how tro disengage when the risk became too high.
-
Cassie seems to me in her immediate pursuit of Ennis to be an analogue of Lureen in the bar sceeen. These are both predatory women, fulfilling the tradtional male role of pursuer - one gets her man and a marriage which degenerates into something that could be done over the phone, the other loses her man and is free to settle for something else, second-best to her maybe. but it also shows up the contrast in Ennis and Jack; Jack when approached by Lureen is a willing participant, though enouraged by her whereas Ennis, though encouraged by Cassie, holds back and eventually rejects the whole idea of a relationship with her. which may tell us a lot about the differences between the two - at least it makes Jack look more of a compromiser or a trimmer while Ennis looks more resolute, more stubborn if you like.
-
Very interesting analogy drawn here, WW. In truth, Ennis had better hindsight, and perhaps this lead him to spare Cassie from a life in limbo. But Cassie does indeed stand as counterpoint to Lureen and her pursuit of Jack. And who knows if Cassie's desire for a career of her own would have paralleled Lureen's inevitable sumbersion into the family business? Certainly, each one echoes aspects of the other.
-
Hi tpe,
Yes, I do agree. If Ennis had detected rejection from Jack, he would have withdrawn. But since he didn't, Jack proceeded to do what he wanted. Ennis was ready, whether he knew it or not. Jack knew. Jack was the driver. Unfortunately, Ennis's stubborn resistance afterwards was stronger than their love. But he did love Jack to the point of never being able to love Cassie or anyone else, other than his daughters.
-
Hi tpe,
Yes, I do agree. If Ennis had detected rejection from Jack, he would have withdrawn. But since he didn't, Jack proceeded to do what he wanted. Ennis was ready, whether he knew it or not. Jack knew. Jack was the driver. Unfortunately, Ennis's stubborn resistance afterwards was stronger than their love. But he did love Jack to the point of never being able to love Cassie or anyone else, other than his daughters.
Jack certainly knew by then what he wanted. It's like Cassie, who knew exactly what she wanted the moment she introduces herself to Ennis.
-
Cassie's unlike Alma in many ways - more upfront, more aggressive, more confident of her own powers ( at first) but I wonder. Alma eventually found herself a job and in the end another husband - Cassie has evidently found someone else too. Are these women indicators of the changing times, when women who saw themselves primarily as housewives and mothers were giving way to women with ambition to make it in the outside world? Lureen's family businees also brings her into contact with the outside, and very male, world of big agricultural machinery - we don't see any women among the sutomers of her father's business.
Now I'm off on another tack and wondering if we're seeing self-sufficient women and men who turn to each other.....
-
Cassie's unlike Alma in many ways - more upfront, more aggressive, more confident of her own powers ( at first) but I wonder. Alma eventually found herself a job and in the end another husband - Cassie has evidently found someone else too. Are these women indicators of the changing times, when women who saw themselves primarily as housewives and mothers were giving way to women with ambition to make it in the outside world? Lureen's family businees also brings her into contact with the outside, and very male, world of big agricultural machinery - we don't see any women among the sutomers of her father's business.
Now I'm off on another tack and wondering if we're seeing self-sufficient women and men who turn to each other.....
She certainly seems closer to the young Lureen, but I wonder if she would end up the same way. She is certainly not as well-off. But she seems to have ambition. It is telling that Ennis dismisses her desire to go to Nursing school in his conversation with Jack. One would think that this is his indifference to improving his own lot. We have already seen this with his dealings with Alma. Cassie would have been subjected to the same indifference, it would seem.
-
My opinion of Cassie has eased a bit... after watching the dvd 20 times.
In their last scene, Ennis was in a foul mood... with his pie. The previous scene shows him crumpling like a kitten in Jack's arms.
He was an angry man, full of frustration, with his machismo to prove. Cassie was the unfortunate one to get in front of him. He was so rude when he said, good for you. He was mad at himself. Maybe he hated himself. But he hurt her deeply with his attitude, evasion and dismissal. He was grasping for control at her expense. He was used to having it.
The next scene... the postcard marked deceased.
Ennis had controlled Jack for 20 years. When he crumpled, that was a sign, the end. It set in motion the final blows.
-
My opinion of Cassie changed also. I thought her really pushy, but she was only looking for something, a sign, read on Ennis, she couldn't figure out. Her last resort was Alma, Jr. When Cassie ask her would her father remarry. She again was left alone with no answer, no clue, and hurt feelings.
Cassie just didn't know what she was up against. And yes Ennis was hurtful to her. Returning from the final meeting with Jack, he apparently didn't even let her know he was back, and then choose to scorn her because she was with some else, that was really a low blow, and showed his own hypocrisy, or was it a reminder of Jack's own indiscretions?
The Ennis she tried to know was gone, the man sitting there missed his lover, hurt by how things were left with them. And most importantly his love for Jack was his existence, which he still try to control.
Ennis left a lot of damage in the wake of his constant denial.
Tamlyn you hit the mark again.
-
My opinion of Cassie has eased a bit... after watching the dvd 20 times.
In their last scene, Ennis was in a foul mood... with his pie. The previous scene shows him crumpling like a kitten in Jack's arms.
He was an angry man, full of frustration, with his machismo to prove. Cassie was the unfortunate one to get in front of him. He was so rude when he said, good for you. He was mad at himself. Maybe he hated himself. But he hurt her deeply with his attitude, evasion and dismissal. He was grasping for control at her expense. He was used to having it.
The next scene... the postcard marked deceased.
Ennis had controlled Jack for 20 years. When he crumpled, that was a sign, the end. It set in motion the final blows.
Hello tamlynn. Yes, I really think he hurt her deeply in that meeting, although I confess that I am not so sure whether he did it intentionally or not. It certainly was verty rude of him to say "Good for you." But he seemed clueless when he blurted out the comment about not being "fun".
I guess the problem here is that Casie herself remained clueless about Ennis till the very end -- unlike Alma, who knew all about Ennis and Jack. Sometimes, I wonder if Alma would have ended up like Cassie -- totally baffled and clueless -- had Alma not made the chance discovery during the Reunion.
And yes, the final confrontation did set in motion the final emotional blows that was to bring down Ennis's facade of stoicism. We see this first in the last meeting with Cassie.
-
My opinion of Cassie changed also. I thought her really pushy, but she was only looking for something, a sign, read on Ennis, she couldn't figure out. Her last resort was Alma, Jr. When Cassie ask her would her father remarry. She again was left alone with no answer, no clue, and hurt feelings.
Cassie just didn't know what she was up against. And yes Ennis was hurtful to her. Returning from the final meeting with Jack, he apparently didn't even let her know he was back, and then choose to scorn her because she was with some else, that was really a low blow, and showed his own hypocrisy, or was it a reminder of Jack's own indiscretions?
The Ennis she tried to know was gone, the man sitting there missed his lover, hurt by how things were left with them. And most importantly his love for Jack was his existence, which he still try to control.
Ennis left a lot of damage in the wake of his constant denial.
Tamlyn you it the mark again.
Cassie most certainly didn't know what she was up against. And as I said in my previous post, thing might have been different had she had the knowledge that Alma possessed. Without t, she was baffled, and probably partly blamed herself for the failure of her relationship with Ennis.
Was she trying to make Ennis jealous in the end, as a last resort?
Yes, Ennis did a lot of emotional damage to those around him. Cassie is certainly no exception.
-
She was so obviously wrong for him from the beginning, though, and the comment to alma Jr that perhaps she considered Ennis not the marrying kind suggests that she had a sense that Ennis wasn't going to commit to anyone.
I wonder if Cassie, or indeed any of the other locals, wondered about the reason for Ennis's divorce from Alma.
-
Cassie most certainly didn't know what she was up against. And as I said in my previous post, thing might have been different had she had the knowledge that Alma possessed. Without t, she was baffled, and probably partly blamed herself for the failure of her relationship with Ennis.
Was she trying to make Ennis jealous in the end, as a last resort?
Yes, Ennis did a lot of emotional damage to those around him. Cassie is certainly no exception.
Cassie wasn't the kind of woman that stayed alone for long. There was no reason for her to make Ennis jealous, she was doing what comes naturally to her. But what bothers me, is Ennis and his seemingly odd sense of morality. He could threaten Jack for hinting at seeing someone else, and put down Cassie because she was with another man. For himself, he wanted a marriage for propriety sake and still have his male lover.
Rules were apparently for the ones around him, but need not apply to him. Did anyone else see this in the same way?
-
She was so obviously wrong for him from the beginning, though, and the comment to alma Jr that perhaps she considered Ennis not the marrying kind suggests that she had a sense that Ennis wasn't going to commit to anyone.
I wonder if Cassie, or indeed any of the other locals, wondered about the reason for Ennis's divorce from Alma.
Yes, she should have taken Alma Jr.'s hint, but it is understandable that she let it slip. When one is in love, one can believe anything -- even if the handwriting is written on the wall.
-
Cassie wasn't the kind of woman that stayed alone for long. There was no reason for her to make Ennis jealous, she was doing what comes naturally to her. But what bothers me, is Ennis and his seemingly odd sense of morality. He could threaten Jack for hinting at seeing someone else, and put down Cassie because she was with another man. For himself, he wanted a marriage for propriety sake and still have his male lover.
Rules were apparently for the ones around him, but need not apply to him. Did anyone else see this in the same way?
I think it's true that Ennis was being inconsistent, but it did seem to me that he let Cassie go too easily -- at least to her. I think part of the anger and disappointment in Cassie in that scene was that he expected Ennis to show outrage -- but he showed nothing of the kind. If anything, he seemed to show disinterest. That was what really hurt her.
Well, she did have one good reason to make Ennis jealous: it was clear that she still loved him. The tears and the final comment make that all too clear. But it does seem that Carl was there more for companionship. The fact that she stormed out without waiting for Carl tells us something. Also, her comment "Carl? He's alright" indicates that she was not exactly madly in love with him.
-
There are ways in which Cassie contrasts so much with Alma, yet in the end it's obvious that she wants to marry and will go looking till she finds someone, even if he's only " all right". I suppose this is a product of the period; women were expected to marry, settle down, have children, and so they did.
-
Who was stronger: Cassie, or Alma? Neither of them seemed to have been able to handle Ennis, although Alma probably cam closer. The comparison is probably not fair, given that Alma had Ennis much longer. But something about Cassie's willfulness to "get" Ennis speaks of a strength we don't see in Alma when she and Ennis were newly-weds. Cassie seemd more determined. Like Lureen at the onset, she knew what she wanted. To the very end, she knew.
-
the other thing though is it shows the assumptions we make in love. Cassie probably saw Ennis at the bar and thought this guy has no life, she could come in and scoop him up, not knowing what a secret life he had. I think we all do that with people, we have no idea what their private lives are like and may feel someone is "available" when they are not at all. Or the other way around, assume someone is out of reach who might be dying for us to reach out. So it also exposes how people aren't what they seem.
-
the other thing though is it shows the assumptions we make in love. Cassie probably saw Ennis at the bar and thought this guy has no life, she could come in and scoop him up, not knowing what a secret life he had. I think we all do that with people, we have no idea what their private lives are like and may feel someone is "available" when they are not at all. Or the other way around, assume someone is out of reach who might be dying for us to reach out. So it also exposes how people aren't what they seem.
So Ennis was a book that Cassie simply misread, no?
In a way, Casie's plight is understandable. It is common for people to reach out, even if their assumptions are all wrong. It's part of human nature, I guess. The ability to take risks, even as one does not keep sight of eventualities... The sad thing is that for people like her, it takes a while to concede, even after they see the handwriting on the wall fairly plain. That's when it starts to hurt...
-
I think when cassie said i dont get you ennis del mar meaning i dont understand you.
no one was going to GET ennis all the while jack was around .Even when jack died i still dont think no one would of GOT ennis. i did like cassie.
-
I think when cassie said i dont get you ennis del mar meaning i dont understand you.
no one was going to GET ennis all the while jack was around .Even when jack died i still dont think no one would of GOT ennis. i did like cassie.
I do find Cassie a sympathetic figure -- because she never understood, no? At least Alma had the long and bitter insight into it all. Or was that her burden?
-
I do find Cassie a sympathetic figure -- because she never understood, no? At least Alma had the long and bitter insight into it all. Or was that her burden?
Sometimes they say what you dont know cant hurt you but yea alma did know so i probaly think it hung very heavy on her mind . I for one wouldnt be able to see what i saw and say nothing for years like alma did. Poor cassie just couldnt get ennis to commit to her for reasons cassie never knew.
-
Given that she meets Ennis long after the divorce when he still appears eligible ( to her, anyway), and when times may be changing, I wonder what her reaction would be if she knew about Jack? Would she regard it as a challenge to get Ennis away from him as some people do - you know, every gay man is just mistaken and I'm the woman to show him so, or would she be sympathetic or just turn away and stalk off in a rage?
-
I do think that Cassie's was a case wherein what she didn't know still hurt her -- because it left her confused and bewildered, unsure of what to do next.
As for Cassie's reaction to Jack -- she would probably have reacted the same as Alma, no? But somehow, I sense that Cassie was a bit weaker than Alma -- she would have never withstood several years living the lie with Ennis.
-
I do think that Cassie's was a case wherein what she didn't know still hurt her -- because it left her confused and bewildered, unsure of what to do next.
As for Cassie's reaction to Jack -- she would probably have reacted the same as Alma, no? But somehow, I sense that Cassie was a bit weaker than Alma -- she would have never withstood several years living the lie with Ennis.
Thats interesting ,i took alma to be weaker than cassie i always thought alma was weak and thats why she never confronted ennis about jack untill she was safely with monroe.
Whereas cassie i thought would of said something straight away if she saw what alma saw .
Yea cassie still got hurt by ennis because she just couldnt fathom him out.
-
Thats interesting ,i took alma to be weaker than cassie i always thought alma was weak and thats why she never confronted ennis about jack untill she was safely with monroe.
Whereas cassie i thought would of said something straight away if she saw what alma saw .
Yea cassie still got hurt by ennis because she just couldnt fathom him out.
I do see your point. LF. I though of Alma as being "stronger" in that she weathered the marriage for many years, even though she knew how things stood. But what you say also makes perfect sense in another way of looking at things. Thanks! It's very interesting to share points of view..
-
I do see your point. LF. I though of Alma as being "stronger" in that she weathered the marriage for many years, even though she knew how things stood. But what you say also makes perfect sense in another way of looking at things. Thanks! It's very interesting to share points of view..
you could say alma was weak for not leaving but stronger for staying.
-
you could say alma was weak for not leaving but stronger for staying.
How interesting! That's a wonderful way of putting it, lightnin flat. There seems to be much much more to wat you say here than meets the eye...
-
How interesting! That's a wonderful way of putting it, lightnin flat. There seems to be much much more to wat you say here than meets the eye...
hi ya
I think alma was weak for not confronting ennis about jack.
How could a woman still sleep with her husband knowing he has got a THING going with another man not unless she didnt mind wich alma clearly did mind [or did she] .Alma saw ennis kiss jack in 1967 she didnt divorce him till 1975 so like you said that could make her stronger for staying and putting up with the situation for all those years. But to me thats not normal behaviour especially when ennis was going on supposed :f) trips3 or 4 times a year. Alma knew it wasnt a one of with jack when she see ennis kiss jack she knew only to well what went on when they went away.
Mind ,dont mind,weak ,or strong,maybe alma didnt love ennis enough to care what he done or maybe she loved him so much she was prepared to put up with the situation.
At the thanksgiving dinner alma knew she was opening a can of worms when she said you ought to find someone else to marry.do you still go fishing with jack twist what a question to ask she obvisously felt stronger to confront ennis after all those years that could of been because she was with monroe and look how miserable she looked.
As for cassie i dont think she would of put up withanything like that and to me that makes cassie stronger for not taking any nonsense .
does any of that make sense
-
hi ya
I think alma was weak for not confronting ennis about jack.
How could a woman still sleep with her husband knowing he has got a THING going with another man not unless she didnt mind wich alma clearly did mind [or did she] .Alma saw ennis kiss jack in 1967 she didnt divorce him till 1975 so like you said that could make her stronger for staying and putting up with the situation for all those years. But to me thats not normal behaviour especially when ennis was going on supposed :f) trips3 or 4 times a year. Alma knew it wasnt a one of with jack when she see ennis kiss jack she knew only to well what went on when they went away.
Mind ,dont mind,weak ,or strong,maybe alma didnt love ennis enough to care what he done or maybe she loved him so much she was prepared to put up with the situation.
At the thanksgiving dinner alma knew she was opening a can of worms when she said you ought to find someone else to marry.do you still go fishing with jack twist what a question to ask she obvisously felt stronger to confront ennis after all those years that could of been because she was with monroe and look how miserable she looked.
As for cassie i dont think she would of put up withanything like that and to me that makes cassie stronger for not taking any nonsense .
does any of that make sense
I wonder sometimes whether it was fear that made Alma keep quiet about what she knew.
On one hand, it is fear of Ennis and what he might do if he found out that he and Jack were spied upon.
On the other hand (and perhaps more significant here), perhaps Alma was initially more afraid of losing Ennis. I think her love for him was genuine -- perhaps the only love she knew then. Perhaps she was more afraid to lose what she had: the stability of a family, with husband and children, and being the mother and devoted wife. This perhaps was what she only wanted, and she was not ready to give this all up initially because of what she saw.
But we are getting to be OT.
For Cassie, it was probably best that she did not know. I suspect that she may have just buckled when faced with that knowledge.
Unlike Alma though, Cassie seemed to also have dreams and ambitions. She probably wouldn't have wanted to sacrifice all this for the sake of a love that lay elsewhere.
-
I wonder sometimes whether it was fear that made Alma keep quiet about what she knew.
On one hand, it is fear of Ennis and what he might do if he found out that he and Jack were spied upon.
On the other hand (and perhaps more significant here), perhaps Alma was initially more afraid of losing Ennis. I think her love for him was genuine -- perhaps the only love she knew then. Perhaps she was more afraid to lose what she had: the stability of a family, with husband and children, and being the mother and devoted wife. This perhaps was what she only wanted, and she was not ready to give this all up initially because of what she saw.
But we are getting to be OT.
For Cassie, it was probably best that she did not know. I suspect that she may have just buckled when faced with that knowledge.
Unlike Alma though, Cassie seemed to also have dreams and ambitions. She probably wouldn't have wanted to sacrifice all this for the sake of a love that lay elsewhere.
Yes alma could of feared ennis he did have a bit of a temper.
Yea cassie was i think more ambitous she did want to go to nursing school didnt she.
Ennis couldnt give his love to cassie because it did definately lay elsewhere.
I did like cassie i think if ennis was available to be with her i get the feeling they would of been good together.
-
Yes alma could of feared ennis he did have a bit of a temper.
Yea cassie was i think more ambitous she did want to go to nursing school didnt she.
Ennis couldnt give his love to cassie because it did definately lay elsewhere.
I did like cassie i think if ennis was available to be with her i get the feeling they would of been good together.
And I think Ennis did the right thing by putting the blocks on Cassie. Sure, he hurt her, but at least he tried to minimize the hurt. Ennis was in a very difficult situation...
-
Cassie was in the end too much of a life force for Ennis, I think, too fond of music and dancing and company, the things Ennis resisted when he was with Alma. Jack had the same spirit but was able, maybe forced, to content himself with Ennis and no-one else when they were together.
-
IMO:
Cassie was the last sign that Ennis break from what he tried to be, and what he was. When he returned from the final confrontation with Jack, I think he finally accepted that Jack was who he was and what he wanted, and not seeking out Cassie, or returning her notes was the final break, even with him not realizing what he himself was doing.
Without Jack life was bleak, and no woman, or even another man could replace what he had with Jack. Ennis was those rare people who loved and loved for life, and how he lived reflects that.
Ennis was indeed "a sensitive and passionate man", and all of it went to Jack. It was this from the beginning and he doubled over in pain and anguish when he separated from Jack after the first summer to the end when he made the pilgrimage to Jack's childhood home.
-
Cassie was in the end too much of a life force for Ennis, I think, too fond of music and dancing and company, the things Ennis resisted when he was with Alma. Jack had the same spirit but was able, maybe forced, to content himself with Ennis and no-one else when they were together.
The contrast between the two of them was quite significant, no? Was it a case of "opposites attract" with Cassie? She probably adored the image of Ennis as a strong, silent type.
-
IMO:
Cassie was the last sign that Ennis break from what he tried to be, and what he was. When he returned from the final confrontation with Jack, I think he finally accepted that Jack was who he was and what he wanted, and not seeking out Cassie, or returning her notes was the final break, even with him not realizing what he himself was doing.
Without Jack life was bleak, and no woman, or even another man could replace what he had with Jack. Ennis was those rare people who loved and loved for life, and how he lived reflects that.
Ennis was indeed "a sensitive and passionate man", and all of it went to Jack. It was this from the beginning and he doubled over in pain and anguish when he separated from Jack after the first summer to the end when he made the pilgrimage to Jack's childhood home.
Yes, I think that it signified a deliberate break from his former self. This is another reason why I think that Ennis may have been gearing up for a significant change. It is unfortunate that Cassie turned out to be the proving ground on which Ennis's conflicting emotions did battle. Unfortunate, but perhaps inevitable.
-
In some ways Cassie is anther version of Alma, I think, the conventional woman who wants to marry and settle down and raise a family, in order to do which she simply looks for a male who fits the conventional mould. Cassie isn't deeply committed emotionally to Ennis or she wouldn't so quickly have found a replacement - she will eventually get a man but he won't be the man, as Jack is for Ennis. Alma seems much the same to me - she settles for Monroe and a conventional lower middle-class marriage. Ennis and Jack are lovers in the Romeo and Juliet or Antony and cleopatra mould - caught up in a love that has nothing to do with convention or satisfying society's expectations or linked to material well-being, just something that's too powerful to resist.
-
I agree with you,ww,in that both Alma and Cassie are two sides of the same coin;as I said in another post to Babytammy,they speak the same language,but in two different dialects...I mean that Cassie was looking for a suitable man to settle down,although her way of getting it is bolder and more agressive sexually,more in the line of a "femme fatale".(?).However,Alma is an humble and rather conventional country girl who had never thought in take the initiative in flirting because"it´s something done by men".But I disagree in that Cassie didn´t fall in love with Ennis,although she had found a replacement more or less quickly;for this same reason,Jack wouldn´t love Ennis so much because he looked for and found a replacement also in Randall.Sometimes,you need someone to make you feel alive after a break with the one you love,it´s like a "defense mechanism".
-
In some ways Cassie is anther version of Alma, I think, the conventional woman who wants to marry and settle down and raise a family, in order to do which she simply looks for a male who fits the conventional mould. Cassie isn't deeply committed emotionally to Ennis or she wouldn't so quickly have found a replacement - she will eventually get a man but he won't be the man, as Jack is for Ennis. Alma seems much the same to me - she settles for Monroe and a conventional lower middle-class marriage. Ennis and Jack are lovers in the Romeo and Juliet or Antony and cleopatra mould - caught up in a love that has nothing to do with convention or satisfying society's expectations or linked to material well-being, just something that's too powerful to resist.
The intersting thing is that I somehow felt that Cassie was even less committed to Carl than to Ennis. I had even wondered whether she went with Carl in a last desperate attempt to gain Ennis's attention.
Presonally, I think she invested more time with Ennis. I think it was years that they saw each other no? For a woman in her 20s, that is a serious thing, in my estimation. I really think he wanted Ennis much more than Ennis was prepared to give.
-
IMO:
It just strikes me funny in this story, that there were two type of woman that society may label as a woman of virtue, (alma) and a woman of easy virtue( Cassie) to make a subtle point. This might be a severe look at this, and maybe even called sexist, but I wonder how much did this play in showing Ennis's slow disinterest in the women as a whole in his life, no matter who they were as people, as love interest, as someone he could live his life with. It just didn't work.
I may not be expressing my idea clearly, but this shows to me, that no matter the kind of people they were , Ennis's involvement emotionally, mentally, and sexually was totally in Jack. Jack was who he was drawn to, and became part of him.
Wasn't there some kind of open, unfillable space between Ennis and the women in his life, that could never be filled. So both woman were set adrift.
Just a thought.
-
Wasn't there some kind of open, unfillable space between Ennis and the women in his life, that could never be filled. So both woman were set adrift.
Just a thought.
Yes, I think so. Cassie sensed this bettwe than Alma, I think. It was perhaps at that point, Ennis himself knew that there was a part of him would not yield to any woman. Hence your image is wonderful! There was no rock on which to anchor: the women in Ennis's life were indeed set adrift.
-
IMO:
Wasn't there some kind of open, unfillable space between Ennis and the women in his life, that could never be filled. So both woman were set adrift.
Just a thought.
I like the way you expressed this, manhattan. It is so true. Ennis just couldn't relax enough to relate well with any woman. Only Jack.
NB: Ennis never started any conversatioin with Alma or Cassie. He only answered when they directly asked him something. That's pretty telling in itself.
-
Other than in the honeymoon scene, Ennis doesn't really smile at Alma and his body-language when he's with her is often awkward, The same is true of the scenes with Cassie - so it can't be either of them , it must be the fact that they're both female and both not-Jack.
-
I had the impression that with Cassie, Ennis was being KIND. It seemed to me that he was rather complacent -- perhaps enjoying the company, but not particularly enjoying the attention. Loneliness gets to you this way, no? Sometimes, we are so lonely that we don't eevn mind the company of those we dislike.
-
I feel that way, too, tpe. Ennis is not really interested in Cassie. He goes along for the ride, but there's no feelings there that we ever see. Maybe he wants to allay the lonliness, or maybe he wants to be seen with a woman in case anyone has any doubts about his sexuality. But, he's surely not in love.
-
I've wopndered whether Cassie was a sort of way for Ennis to get back at Alma and anyine else in the locality who might talk about him - not gossip about his sexuality but just casting aspersions on him as a male able to have relationships with women. Maybe she also represented an attempt to have a sensual and sexual relationship that wasn't with Jack - if it had worked it might have made his life easier.
-
Amen to this,ww. (:)Interested or not in her,Cassie was A WOMAN,reason strong enough to go out with her.For the same reason that he smiles almost easily when he learns that Jack has an affair with another woman;he feels relaxed because he knows his lover is "safe" having a socially well-seen relationship-no fears of reactions as with Earl and Ritch-and,why not?he´s relaxed also because he knows Jack will never be able to have a REAL relationship-loving,sexual,transcendental...-with women.Maybe does he know he won´t either?.
-
Thanks lamusica, ww, and MPJ. :)
I had wondered about something similar to what ww suggested -- that a relationship with Cassie didn't hurt, in Ennis's mind, if it somehow convinced the "others" that he was a normal kind of guy. To a certain extent, Ennis and (especially) Jack, used their wives this way, no? But I guess committing to Cassie would have been too much even for Ennis. Perhaps Ennis felt that an open-ended relationship wouldn'tr hurt him as much as a marriage to Cassie would hurt Cassie more in the long run.
-
I always wondered about the role of Cassie in the movie because it stood out in such contrast to the rest of the characters, except for Monroe.
They are the only happy people that the four of them ever met and lived with. Tamlynn's analysis of both Cassie and Jack's salemanship is brilliant! (:)
I have another explanation of Ennis' seeming disinterests in the lovely Cassie. We don't know that Ennis was not interested in Cassie sexually. He just was not very expressive by nature. Furthermore, with Jack on his mind all the time, I doubt that he had room to think about anyone else. Most of all, I think Ennis has the integrity to know that it would be unfair to Cassie to get involved, and then not being able to live up to her expectations of a normal marriage, etc. He defended Elma against Jack. He knew the lying was wrong all those years. He just didn't know what to do about it. As much as he enjoyed being with Cassie, it was not love, and he didn't want to hurt her any more. So he stopped returning her calls.
Cassie is understandably attracted to the strong silent type in Ennis. It's just that this strong silent one is quiet and brooding for a reason that she didn't understand, and would never get. Even Elma, when confronted with it on her doorstep, could not deal with it. I am just stunned that Ennis never talked with her to find out what's bothering her. In a way, Ennis made the divorce inevitable by not caring for Elma like a loving husband. Even if Elma did not see the kiss, she had every right to be upset, and leave him.
It is this tragic web of deceit that Ennis was referring to in their last meeting. Ennis wanted to do the right thing, to be a good provider for his family, to be a good husband, like he was a good cowboy. But Brokeback and Jack made all of that impossible, and he had no control over it. In his own mind, he was nothing, he lost all respect for himself. He probably thought Cassie was better off with someone else. When Cassie told him that "girls don't fall in love with fun" he woke up to the name of this thing between him and Jack. That's when he wrote the postcard to initiate the meeting in November. And the deeper tragedy was that when he was finally ready to express his love, he couldn't! And then hearing from Jack's father that Jack had wanted all these years to spend a life together, and then finding the two shirts! It was one thing to be unable to express his love to Jack, thinking Jack had already stopped loving him (like that first summer when he thought Jack was sore from the punch). It was quite another to know that for twenty years, Jack had loved him, and he didn't know, and now would never be able to return that love.
It was a long journey for one cowboy to learning the meaning of love, with many innocent people hurt along the way (Elma, Cassie, Jack, Laureen).
There is no right or wrong, no good girl, bad girl. All the characters did the best they could, but the circumstances made it impossible for a good outcome. In the end, Elma and Monroe have a happy life, and their children found love. Bobby probably will do well in Grandpa's business, and Laureen will move on with her life, in the country club, with the other wives. Even Cassie will find a man, or perhaps even love. Jack and Ennis were robbed of their chance for happiness. That was the only tragedy that really stood out in the story because there was no way to fix it, so Ennis just had to stand it, all those years of lonely vigil until their ashes can be together again on Brokeback Mountain.
I think that's what he meant when he says, at the end, "Jack I swear". It was a promise to put in his own will, that he and Jack will spend eternity together in Brokeback Mountain. I can be totally wrong, of course. But that's what I'd like to think of Ennis, the romantic devoted cowboy who seeks redemption by doing the one thing that Jack asked of him.
He wasn't living a lonely life, just a life filled with memories alone.
-
I do also think that Cassie did what she could, under the circumstances. Looking at it from her point of view, I can understand her confusion and frustration. If there is injustice in the movie, she certainly gets her share. But like her, we are toys before the god, and fate frequently chooses to break us, if only to remind us of how little we are in control.
-
Like flies to wanton boys are we to the gods;
They kill us for their sport.
-
I do also think that Cassie did what she could, under the circumstances. Looking at it from her point of view, I can understand her confusion and frustration. If there is injustice in the movie, she certainly gets her share. But like her, we are toys before the god, and fate frequently chooses to break us, if only to remind us of how little we are in control.
I don't know if it is injustice or simply her taking risk chasing after a man with a reputation in town.
After all, she must knew about Ennis and Jack's quarterly Brokeback rendez-vous. It seems everyone else in town knew. Perhaps she was confident that her beauty and her charm would be enough to change Ennis. Isn't that what attracts many women to gay men? The hope to be the one to rescue the one who went astray? I don't know what motivated Cassie to go after Ennis that first night, with dancing and footrub. I don't know if she fell in love with Ennis after seeing how devoted he was to his girls. What ever the reasons for Cassie to extend her heart to Ennis, her suffering is also what makes love bittersweet. We take a chance to be vulnerable, and if we are lucky, we find someone who treats that heart with care. Ennis finally learned that when he saw how heartbroken Cassie was, and realized Jack may feel the same way. And knowing that, he knew he loved Jack, because he could NOT stand being the reason of that hurt. I think if Jack lived, Ennis would have proposed to move to Texas. Afterall, he hasn't seen Elma jr for a year or so. If he can find a better paying job in Texas, he could pay for his child support and be closing to Jack. I think he was ready to take the plunge. And all the more tragic when the post card was returned. I love the way Ang Lee showed only his back for most of that scene, and not his face, just like the last meeting between Jack and Ennis, when Ennis had his back turned away from Jack, but was sobbing uncontrollably.
I don't know about the short story, but introducing Cassie into the movie is brilliant!
-
I don't know if it is injustice or simply her taking risk chasing after a man with a reputation in town.
After all, she must knew about Ennis and Jack's quarterly Brokeback rendez-vous. It seems everyone else in town knew. Perhaps she was confident that her beauty and her charm would be enough to change Ennis. Isn't that what attracts many women to gay men? The hope to be the one to rescue the one who went astray? I don't know what motivated Cassie to go after Ennis that first night, with dancing and footrub. I don't know if she fell in love with Ennis after seeing how devoted he was to his girls. What ever the reasons for Cassie to extend her heart to Ennis, her suffering is also what makes love bittersweet. We take a chance to be vulnerable, and if we are lucky, we find someone who treats that heart with care. Ennis finally learned that when he saw how heartbroken Cassie was, and realized Jack may feel the same way. And knowing that, he knew he loved Jack, because he could NOT stand being the reason of that hurt. I think if Jack lived, Ennis would have proposed to move to Texas. Afterall, he hasn't seen Elma jr for a year or so. If he can find a better paying job in Texas, he could pay for his child support and be closing to Jack. I think he was ready to take the plunge. And all the more tragic when the post card was returned. I love the way Ang Lee showed only his back for most of that scene, and not his face, just like the last meeting between Jack and Ennis, when Ennis had his back turned away from Jack, but was sobbing uncontrollably.
I don't know about the short story, but introducing Cassie into the movie is brilliant!
I had wondered if Ennis really had a "reputation" about town, or whether much of this was really just paranoia. If it were the latter, then perhaps Cassie was all the more clueless. "I don't get you, Ennis del Mar" certainly suggests that she was at a loss when it came to Ennis. I wonder how she would have reacted had she known better. I think she would have reacted not in the same way as Alma...
-
I think,knowing Ennis,that it was more a question of paranoia than a real "reputation" :-\\ .Yes,for Cassie´s reaction,we can suppose she didn´t know anything and,so then,didn´t understand ,didn´t get Ennis...On the other hand,I think some of us are unfair with Cassie by not liking her very much,because she´s a more key character than it can seem at first sight;IMO,she teaches Ennis what love means,no matter how you´re,and,giving him the sight for realising it,forces him somehow to give a chance to Jack and his love,by writing the last invitation card to him...The pity is that we´ll never know is this was going to be a REAL CHANGE.
-
I think,knowing Ennis,that it was more a question of paranoia than a real "reputation" :-\\ .Yes,for Cassie´s reaction,we can suppose she didn´t know anything and,so then,didn´t understand ,didn´t get Ennis...On the other hand,I think some of us are unfair with Cassie by not liking her very much,because she´s a more key character than it can seem at first sight;IMO,she teaches Ennis what love means,no matter how you´re,and,giving him the sight for realising it,forces him somehow to give a chance to Jack and his love,by writing the last invitation card to him...The pity is that we´ll never know is this was going to be a REAL CHANGE.
I'd like to think that it was a REAL CHANGE, because it seems to me that Ennis in the trailer scenes became more sensitive and open. The way he talked to Elma jr was totally different from the way he talked to her in the car, when she wanted to move in with him. He became more loving, more capable of giving. He was still the strong silent one that we love, but even his silence felt more open, like when he looked out the window, after he asked Elma if Kurt loved her, and she said yes. Instead of wallowing in self-pity of his lost love, he managed to say the right things to make Elma jr smile and turned it into an occasion for bonding. The old Ennis probably couldn't do that. The new Ennis became more of Jack. He smiled more.
-
The new Ennis became more of Jack.That´s right¡ :clap: They say that something of lost loved ones qualities remains inside us making us to be more similar to them... :) Maybe Jack was more by Ennis´side when he was gone than when he was alive;it´s a perhaps stupid characteristic of human being that makes us despise what we have and miss it when we lost it...I think this transformation in him began precisely with Cassie phrase "Girls don´t fall in love for fun",increases when he collapses in confrontation scene and reaches the top point in the famous "Jack,I swear...".It´s for this that I think it´s a good aim to include Cassie´s character,more important than it seems,IMO.
-
I think,knowing Ennis,that it was more a question of paranoia than a real "reputation" :-\\ .Yes,for Cassie´s reaction,we can suppose she didn´t know anything and,so then,didn´t understand ,didn´t get Ennis...On the other hand,I think some of us are unfair with Cassie by not liking her very much,because she´s a more key character than it can seem at first sight;IMO,she teaches Ennis what love means,no matter how you´re,and,giving him the sight for realising it,forces him somehow to give a chance to Jack and his love,by writing the last invitation card to him...The pity is that we´ll never know is this was going to be a REAL CHANGE.
I do think Cassie did reveal something to Ennis abou love -- when she said Boys dont fall in love with fun. I guess this hit Ennis hard -- perhaps it told him that sometimes, one goes out on a limb for love.
-
I, too, feel that a lot of people don't like Cassie. I do like her. I think she has spunk and goes after what (who) she wants with all her might. I feel she has goals, but may never reach them if she gets mexed up with men that prevent her from going after her dream. She really likes Ennis, and then falls in love with him. She just doesn't have a clue about what makes him tick. Another tragic element in the story, to my point of view. Another person whose heart gets broken through no fault of her own.
-
The new Ennis became more of Jack.That´s right¡ :clap: They say that something of lost loved ones qualities remains inside us making us to be more similar to them... :) Maybe Jack was more by Ennis´side when he was gone than when he was alive;it´s a perhaps stupid characteristic of human being that makes us despise what we have and miss it when we lost it...I think this transformation in him began precisely with Cassie phrase "Girls don´t fall in love for fun",increases when he collapses in confrontation scene and reaches the top point in the famous "Jack,I swear...".It´s for this that I think it´s a good aim to include Cassie´s character,more important than it seems,IMO.
I think couples simply by spending so much time together naturally take on the characteristics of their partner. And the complementary nature of Ennis and Jack makes it all the more likely that they learn from each other and adapt to one another. The fact that by doing so, both become a better person, Ennis becoming more open and confident while Jack becoming more responsible and caring, is the element that, IMO, make them soul mates. Their love for each other lifts them to a high level of existence. Cassie's revelation opened Ennis' eyes to the reality of this love. If Ennis had been pretending that he and Jack were just two guys having fun, he had no such delusion after Cassie. He took responsibility for that relationship from that moment on, instead of trying to push it aside as just "a one shot deal".
-
I, too, feel that a lot of people don't like Cassie. I do like her. I think she has spunk and goes after what (who) she wants with all her might. I feel she has goals, but may never reach them if she gets mexed up with men that prevent her from going after her dream. She really likes Ennis, and then falls in love with him. She just doesn't have a clue about what makes him tick. Another tragic element in the story, to my point of view. Another person whose heart gets broken through no fault of her own.
I didn't like her initially because I felt she was an intrusion into Ennis' life, and relationship with Jack. Then I realized she was only following her own heart, as you said, going after what she wants with all her might. And I admire her for that. She also taught me, or rather reminded me (since I had been taught this lesson already from painful experiences in my recent past) that sometimes we can't have what we want. Even if she were to understand Ennis, as Jack did, she still wouldn't be Jack, and her love would never be returned. That unrequited love is tragic and painful, and she did what was right, by moving on. If Jack had lived and Ennis moved to the ranch in Lightning Flat, I can see Cassie becoming a happy friend of the family, seeing Ennis and Jack happy together, she would feel happy for them, and I think they will make her feel welcome, too. Jack and Ennis are kind and generous souls, not bothered by petty jealousy. Jack's death also affected Cassie indirectly through Ennis. She really loved him, and he felt that at the diner, watching her running out in tears.
-
Maybe it's the old saying: Too late too smart. Ennis didn't realize what he could have had with Cassie until he had driven her away. With Jack out of the picture, he had no one. Wisdom at such a cost.
-
Maybe it's the old saying: Too late too smart. Ennis didn't realize what he could have had with Cassie until he had driven her away. With Jack out of the picture, he had no one. Wisdom at such a cost.
I haven't heard that old saying. I guess it's kind of like hindsight is 20/20.
And I am fairly certain that Ennis doesn't want Cassie. If he did, he wouldn't be living alone in the trailer.
Ennis and Jack, from the first night, were destined to be together. That's why they kept the romance going for twenty years. Even after their last scene together, if Jack did not die, they would be together in Lightning Flat.
Cassie was the classic tragic figure of unrequited love. She loved Ennis deeply but he couldn't return the love at the same level, not like Ennis and Jack. Even if Ennis didn't drive her away (in his usual passive aggressive way, not return her messages) she would not be happy, as Elma was not happy, especially if she ever finds out about Jack.
Then again, if she could accept Jack in the relationship, things might have worked out differently. Elma hated Jack, and so Ennis was caught in the middle. Jack tried to be friendly with Elma, at the door, but Elma was too shocked from the kiss, from the betrayal to invite him in. Jack knew he wasn't welcome, and that's why he didn't come up the second time. Texans don't drink coffee? Not where they are not welcome, love. Cassie may be more open to an open relationship with Ennis, probably knew his reputation, if he had one. Too bad Ennis was too wrapped up in his own world to find a solution. :(
-
Maybe it's the old saying: Too late too smart. Ennis didn't realize what he could have had with Cassie until he had driven her away. With Jack out of the picture, he had no one. Wisdom at such a cost.
Are you suggesting that Cassie was a "dress-rehearsal" toEnnis's final realization of Jack's love? A prefiguration, so to speak?
-
***
Cassie was the classic tragic figure of unrequited love. She loved Ennis deeply but he couldn't return the love at the same level, not like Ennis and Jack. Even if Ennis didn't drive her away (in his usual passive aggressive way, not return her messages) she would not be happy, as Elma was not happy, especially if she ever finds out about Jack.
Then again, if she could accept Jack in the relationship, things might have worked out differently. Elma hated Jack, and so Ennis was caught in the middle. Jack tried to be friendly with Elma, at the door, but Elma was too shocked from the kiss, from the betrayal to invite him in. Jack knew he wasn't welcome, and that's why he didn't come up the second time. Texans don't drink coffee? Not where they are not welcome, love. Cassie may be more open to an open relationship with Ennis, probably knew his reputation, if he had one. Too bad Ennis was too wrapped up in his own world to find a solution. :(
I think Cassie would also have been unable to make a separate peace with Ennis's relationship with Jack. In this sense, she is also the tragic "sacrifice" to love. Sometimes, the gods punish (or reward?) us by making us love those who find it impossible to love us.
-
I think Cassie would also have been unable to make a separate peace with Ennis's relationship with Jack. In this sense, she is also the tragic "sacrifice" to love. Sometimes, the gods punish (or reward?) us by making us love those who find it impossible to love us.
Cupid's arrows land indiscriminately. That has been since ancient times. How we deal with the cruel fates is up to us, and I think Cassie loves Ennis so much and is generous enough that she would not mind the adorable Jack in their marriage. It is hard to say what Cassie would do, not knowing her character better. Perhaps others with more knowledge from the script writers may know.
I don't think she sacrificed anything because she never had Jack to begin with. If you love something, let it go. If it comes back, it is yours. If it doesn't, it never was.
Cassie tried to have Ennis. It didn't work out. She was wise and smart enough to let it go, walk away. It still hurt like a s@#)$ but it was the right thing to do. Staying in a relationship without love (reciprocated love) is worse than unrequited love. I can't imagine Cassie doing the silly thing when she can surely find someone who loves her, as Elma did.
-
Cupid's arrows land indiscriminately. That has been since ancient times. How we deal with the cruel fates is up to us, and I think Cassie loves Ennis so much and is generous enough that she would not mind the adorable Jack in their marriage. It is hard to say what Cassie would do, not knowing her character better. Perhaps others with more knowledge from the script writers may know.
I don't think she sacrificed anything because she never had Jack to begin with. If you love something, let it go. If it comes back, it is yours. If it doesn't, it never was.
Cassie tried to have Ennis. It didn't work out. She was wise and smart enough to let it go, walk away. It still hurt like a s@#)$ but it was the right thing to do. Staying in a relationship without love (reciprocated love) is worse than unrequited love. I can't imagine Cassie doing the silly thing when she can surely find someone who loves her, as Elma did.
This is an interesting thought, and it indeed happens in real life. Among people I know, I know of two such arrangements. Both of them seem to work -- for now, at least. Isn't life interesting?
I think she was a sacrifice more to the futility of love -- of unrequited love. She didn't have to know Jack to feel that Ennis would not love her the way she loved him.
-
This is an interesting thought, and it indeed happens in real life. Among people I know, I know of two such arrangements. Both of them seem to work -- for now, at least. Isn't life interesting?
I think she was a sacrifice more to the futility of love -- of unrequited love. She didn't have to know Jack to feel that Ennis would not love her the way she loved him.
I think you caught my typo in my haste I wrote Jack when I meant Ennis. Cassie never had Ennis, even though she loved him. If Ennis and Jack got back together, and they met with Cassie after she persists with her messages, I have no doubt that, given the time and circumstance, they would find that Ennis marrying Cassie, and moving in with Jack and his folks, building themselves a big cabin, would work for everyone's benefits. Cassie may still feel pained that her love for Ennis is stronger than his love for her. But I think Ennis, in his usual loving way, will grow as a person with Jack being there, will open up and learn to love her more than he could by himself. It all depends on the dynamics between Jack and Cassie. As far as Ennis is concerned, he would be happy as can be to be loved by two people, both a lot of fun to be with.
I am not an advocate of open relationships as a general rule because they require a lot more work than close and committed ones. In this case, with the level of honesty and integrity, and most of all, the love in these three people, and with the dynamics in the two pairs that we know of (Ennis-Cassie, and Ennis+Jack), I think this will work.
-
I think you caught my typo in my haste I wrote Jack when I meant Ennis. Cassie never had Ennis, even though she loved him. If Ennis and Jack got back together, and they met with Cassie after she persists with her messages, I have no doubt that, given the time and circumstance, they would find that Ennis marrying Cassie, and moving in with Jack and his folks, building themselves a big cabin, would work for everyone's benefits. Cassie may still feel pained that her love for Ennis is stronger than his love for her. But I think Ennis, in his usual loving way, will grow as a person with Jack being there, will open up and learn to love her more than he could by himself. It all depends on the dynamics between Jack and Cassie. As far as Ennis is concerned, he would be happy as can be to be loved by two people, both a lot of fun to be with.
I am not an advocate of open relationships as a general rule because they require a lot more work than close and committed ones. In this case, with the level of honesty and integrity, and most of all, the love in these three people, and with the dynamics in the two pairs that we know of (Ennis-Cassie, and Ennis+Jack), I think this will work.
The question arises then: did Cassie love Ennis enough to contemplate such an arrangement? She didn't know, of course, and it might have made a difference. Times were changing then, but I don't know if Cassie would have contemplated open relationships like this... Interesting thing to think about.
-
As I´m getting older,the most I think we always put too many restrictions in love affairs due to social conventions and that this wouldn´t happen in the only kind of feelings we can arrange,dominate or justify...Nevertheless,we´re a product of our circumstances,even today this has a great importance,so,imagine what could happen in a rural environment in first 80´s¡.Texas chain massacre would be a children´s game¡.OMG¡.Moreover,for me Alma and Cassie are the two sides of the same coin,it´s to say,at the end they only looked for a husband who support themselves economically while living a conventional marriage,not sharing Ennis with another woman and less still with a man...The only difference between them was the way of looking for this life and showing they was looking for it.IMO.
-
But Alma survives by getting what she's always wanted, a comforable bourgeois life, a baby and a husband who can keep her. Alma to me is 1950s woman. Cassie is much brasher; I see her as a survivor who will adapt and get at least something if what she wants.
-
I agree, Cassie was a woman who had alot of the same qualities as Jack. She saw what she wanted and went after it. Of all the men in that bar, she zeroes in on Ennis. ( As a matter of fact, Ive often thought if the story went differently, she and Jack may have made a good pair). Being a barmaid, she no doubt has had her pick of men. She had everything any red-bloodied male could want and a personality to match. She saw Ennis as another attractive guy, but he was not the typical aggressive personality that she probably was used to. He sat alone in the bar, apart from the others , did'nt have much to say when he could have taken the opportunity to come on to her as she served him beer, instead it was she who had to make the first move. She soon finds that he is shy and sort of withdrawn. Didnt reject her dance proposal, instead letting her take the lead to the dance floor. and probably let her take the lead in other aspects of their relationship, mainly sex.
All along I feel Ennis knew that this could only go so far. Jack was still in the picture and he knew that Cassie would not understand why he needed him. I feel he would rather die than to have her find out what his *true* feelings were if he let her get too close. Therefore he just plays along imo and when she starts talking marriage, plays her off completly. She leaves messages at his job and residences, trying to hunt him down. Little does she know Ennis does'nt really want to be found which becomes clear later. IMO he shouldn't have led on her on and hurt her, but this seems to be a pattern with Ennis. Jack and Alma suffered in similar ways in trying to figure this man out. He's complicated no doubt. My take.
-
Thanks, aintfooling, welshwitch , myprivatejack , tpe.
You all have differing opinions, and I love them. I really honestly don't know Cassie and how she will react.
"Cassie being very similar to Jack" may actually be a problem, because people too similar to each other usually don't get along. They may put up with each other for Ennis' sake, at least for a while. But they may never fall in love with each other as they had with Ennis. And Ennis will not play well as the middle played by both ends.
Social convention may be strong, but we have all heard of the unmarried aunt or uncle. I think as long as people didn't flaunt their eccentricities at the face of social respectability, most people are tolerant of unconventional people. It is part of social evolution that we need eccentric people to blaze new trails, to innovate. Too much conservative oppression and life becomes dull and stagnant. By the time of bushy side-burns, disco, and urban cowboys, gay people are breaking out. I really think Ennis and Jack would have been the pioneer that blazed the trail of gay love had Jack lived. Ennis will always be the shy private person that we all love, but Jack will be the political force to be reckon with.
-
Thanks everyone for sharing your thouights.
aintfoolin's comment about Cassie and Jack having similarities is quite fascinating. I had never considered this before, and I do think that there is a grain of truth to this. As WW said, Cassie is a survivor, and perhaps Jack can be though of a survivor in some ways.
What struck me the most is the correspondence on something that I know some people would not agree on -- i.e., that Cassie and (perhaps) Jack were ready to move on in the end, but had not quite forgotten their love for Ennis. Did anyone else see this correspondence?
-
Thanks everyone for sharing your thouights.
aintfoolin's comment about Cassie and Jack having similarities is quite fascinating. I had never considered this before, and I do think that there is a grain of truth to this. As WW said, Cassie is a survivor, and perhaps Jack can be though of a survivor in some ways.
What struck me the most is the correspondence on something that I know some people would not agree on -- i.e., that Cassie and (perhaps) Jack were ready to move on in the end, but had not quite forgotten their love for Ennis. Did anyone else see this correspondence?
Wow, you are right! No wonder somebody mentioned that Cassie is the female equivalent of Jack. This makes their possible open relationship even more interesting.
-
Wow, you are right! No wonder somebody mentioned that Cassie is the female equivalent of Jack. This makes their possible open relationship even more interesting.
It's quite an interesting thought, I agree. Perhaps there is more to it than meets the eye...