Topic: What about Cassie Cartwright?

[tpe]

My opinion of Cassie has eased a bit... after watching the dvd 20 times.

In their last scene, Ennis was in a foul mood... with his pie.  The previous scene shows him crumpling like a kitten in Jack's arms. 

He was an angry man, full of frustration, with his machismo to prove.  Cassie was the unfortunate one to get in front of him.  He was so rude when he said, good for you.  He was mad at himself.  Maybe he hated himself.  But he hurt her deeply with his attitude, evasion and dismissal.  He was grasping for control at her expense.  He was used to having it.

The next scene... the postcard marked deceased.

Ennis had controlled Jack for 20 years.  When he crumpled, that was a sign, the end.  It set in motion the final blows.

Hello tamlynn.  Yes, I really think he hurt her deeply in that meeting, although I confess that I am not so sure whether he did it intentionally or not.  It certainly was verty rude of him to say "Good for you."  But he seemed clueless when he blurted out the comment about not being "fun".   

I guess the problem here is that Casie herself remained clueless about Ennis till the very end -- unlike Alma, who knew all about Ennis and Jack.  Sometimes, I wonder if Alma would have ended up like Cassie -- totally baffled and clueless -- had Alma not made the chance discovery during the Reunion. 

And yes, the final confrontation did set in motion the final emotional blows that was to bring down Ennis's facade of stoicism.  We see this first in the last meeting with Cassie.

[tpe]

My opinion of Cassie changed also.   I thought her really pushy, but she was only looking for something, a sign, read on Ennis, she couldn't figure out.  Her last resort was Alma, Jr.  When Cassie ask her would her father remarry.  She again was left alone with no answer, no clue, and hurt feelings. 

Cassie just didn't know what she was up against.   And yes Ennis was hurtful to her.   Returning from the final meeting with Jack, he apparently didn't even let her know he was back, and then choose to scorn her because she was with some else, that was really a low blow, and showed his own hypocrisy, or was it a reminder of Jack's own indiscretions? 

The Ennis she tried to know was gone, the man sitting there missed his lover, hurt by how things were left with them.   And most importantly his love for Jack was his existence,  which he still try to control.

Ennis left a lot of damage in the wake of his constant denial. 

Tamlyn  you it the mark again. 

Cassie most certainly didn't know what she was up against.  And as I said in my previous post, thing might have been different had she had the knowledge that Alma possessed.  Without t, she was baffled, and probably partly blamed herself for the failure of her relationship with Ennis.

Was she trying to make Ennis jealous in the end, as a last resort? 

Yes, Ennis did a lot of emotional damage to those around him.  Cassie is certainly no exception.

[welshwitch]

She was so obviously wrong for him from the beginning, though, and the comment to alma Jr that perhaps she considered Ennis not the marrying kind suggests that she had a sense that Ennis wasn't going to commit to anyone.

I wonder if Cassie, or indeed any of the other locals, wondered about the reason for Ennis's divorce from Alma.

[manhattangirl]

Cassie most certainly didn't know what she was up against.  And as I said in my previous post, thing might have been different had she had the knowledge that Alma possessed.  Without t, she was baffled, and probably partly blamed herself for the failure of her relationship with Ennis.

Was she trying to make Ennis jealous in the end, as a last resort? 

Yes, Ennis did a lot of emotional damage to those around him.  Cassie is certainly no exception.

Cassie wasn't the kind of woman that stayed alone for long.  There was no reason for her to make Ennis jealous, she was doing what comes naturally to her.  But what bothers me, is Ennis and his seemingly odd sense of morality.  He could threaten Jack for hinting at seeing someone else, and put down Cassie because she was with another man.  For himself, he wanted a marriage for propriety sake and still have his male lover.

Rules were apparently for the ones around him, but need not apply to him.  Did anyone else see this in the same way? 

[tpe]

She was so obviously wrong for him from the beginning, though, and the comment to alma Jr that perhaps she considered Ennis not the marrying kind suggests that she had a sense that Ennis wasn't going to commit to anyone.

I wonder if Cassie, or indeed any of the other locals, wondered about the reason for Ennis's divorce from Alma.

Yes, she should have taken Alma Jr.'s hint, but it is understandable that she let it slip.  When one is in love, one can believe anything -- even if the handwriting is written on the wall.

[tpe]

Cassie wasn't the kind of woman that stayed alone for long.  There was no reason for her to make Ennis jealous, she was doing what comes naturally to her.  But what bothers me, is Ennis and his seemingly odd sense of morality.  He could threaten Jack for hinting at seeing someone else, and put down Cassie because she was with another man.  For himself, he wanted a marriage for propriety sake and still have his male lover.

Rules were apparently for the ones around him, but need not apply to him.  Did anyone else see this in the same way? 

I think it's true that Ennis was being inconsistent, but it did seem to me that he let Cassie go too easily -- at least to her.  I think part of the anger and disappointment in Cassie in that scene was that he expected Ennis to show outrage -- but he showed nothing of the kind.  If anything, he seemed to show disinterest.  That was what really hurt her.

Well, she did have one good reason to make Ennis jealous: it was clear that she still loved him.  The tears and the final comment make that all too clear.  But it does seem that Carl was there more for companionship.  The fact that she stormed out without waiting for Carl tells us something.  Also, her comment "Carl?  He's alright" indicates that she was not exactly madly in love with him. 

[welshwitch]

There are ways in which Cassie contrasts so much with Alma, yet in the end it's obvious that she wants to marry and will go looking till she finds someone, even if he's only " all right". I suppose this is a product of the period; women were expected to marry, settle down, have children, and so they did.

[tpe]

Who was stronger: Cassie, or Alma?  Neither of them seemed to have been able to handle Ennis, although Alma probably cam closer.  The comparison is probably not fair, given that Alma had Ennis much longer.  But something about Cassie's willfulness to "get" Ennis speaks of a strength we don't see in Alma when she and Ennis were newly-weds.  Cassie seemd more determined.  Like Lureen at the onset, she knew what she wanted.  To the very end, she knew.

[Toadily]

the other thing though is it shows the assumptions we make in love.  Cassie probably saw Ennis at the bar and thought this guy has no life, she could come in and scoop him up, not knowing what a secret life he had. I think we all do that with people, we have no idea what their private lives are like and may feel someone is "available" when they are not at all.  Or the other way around, assume someone is out of reach who might be dying for us to reach out.  So it also exposes how people aren't what they seem. 

[tpe]

the other thing though is it shows the assumptions we make in love.  Cassie probably saw Ennis at the bar and thought this guy has no life, she could come in and scoop him up, not knowing what a secret life he had. I think we all do that with people, we have no idea what their private lives are like and may feel someone is "available" when they are not at all.  Or the other way around, assume someone is out of reach who might be dying for us to reach out.  So it also exposes how people aren't what they seem. 

So Ennis was a book that Cassie simply misread, no? 

In a way, Casie's plight is understandable.  It is common for people to reach out, even if their assumptions are all wrong.  It's part of human nature, I guess.  The ability to take risks, even as one does not keep sight of eventualities...  The sad thing is that for people like her, it takes a while to concede, even after they see the handwriting on the wall fairly plain.  That's when it starts to hurt...

[lightnin flat]

  I think when cassie said i dont get you ennis del mar meaning i dont understand you.       
   no one was going to GET ennis all the while jack was around .Even when jack died i still dont think no one would of GOT ennis.   i did like cassie.

[tpe]

  I think when cassie said i dont get you ennis del mar meaning i dont understand you.       
   no one was going to GET ennis all the while jack was around .Even when jack died i still dont think no one would of GOT ennis.   i did like cassie.

I do find Cassie a sympathetic figure -- because she never understood, no?  At least Alma had the long and bitter insight into it all.  Or was that her burden?

[lightnin flat]

I do find Cassie a sympathetic figure -- because she never understood, no?  At least Alma had the long and bitter insight into it all.  Or was that her burden?

             Sometimes they say what you dont know cant hurt you but yea alma did know so i probaly think it hung very heavy on her mind . I for one wouldnt be able to see what i saw and say nothing for years like alma did. Poor cassie just couldnt get ennis to commit to her  for reasons cassie never knew.

[welshwitch]

Given that she meets Ennis long after the divorce when he still appears eligible ( to her, anyway), and when times may be changing, I wonder what her reaction would  be if she knew about Jack? Would she  regard it as a challenge to get Ennis away from him as some people do - you know, every gay man is just mistaken and I'm the woman to show him so, or would she be sympathetic or just turn away and stalk off in a rage?

[tpe]

I do think that Cassie's was a case wherein what she didn't know still hurt her -- because it left her confused and bewildered, unsure of what to do next.

As for Cassie's reaction to Jack -- she would probably have reacted the same as Alma, no?  But somehow, I sense that Cassie was a bit weaker than Alma -- she would have never withstood several years living the lie with Ennis.

[lightnin flat]

I do think that Cassie's was a case wherein what she didn't know still hurt her -- because it left her confused and bewildered, unsure of what to do next.

As for Cassie's reaction to Jack -- she would probably have reacted the same as Alma, no?  But somehow, I sense that Cassie was a bit weaker than Alma -- she would have never withstood several years living the lie with Ennis.

                   Thats interesting ,i took alma to be weaker than cassie i always thought alma was weak and thats why she never confronted ennis about jack untill she was safely with monroe.
                     Whereas cassie i thought would of said something straight away if she saw what alma saw .
                          Yea cassie still got hurt by ennis because she just couldnt fathom him out.
                               

[tpe]

                   Thats interesting ,i took alma to be weaker than cassie i always thought alma was weak and thats why she never confronted ennis about jack untill she was safely with monroe.
                     Whereas cassie i thought would of said something straight away if she saw what alma saw .
                          Yea cassie still got hurt by ennis because she just couldnt fathom him out.
                               

I do see your point. LF.  I though of Alma as being "stronger" in that she weathered the marriage for many years, even though she knew how things stood.  But what you say also makes perfect sense in another way of looking at things.  Thanks!  It's very interesting to share points of view..

[lightnin flat]

I do see your point. LF.  I though of Alma as being "stronger" in that she weathered the marriage for many years, even though she knew how things stood.  But what you say also makes perfect sense in another way of looking at things.  Thanks!  It's very interesting to share points of view..

 

              you could say alma was weak for not leaving  but stronger for staying.
               

[tpe]

 

              you could say alma was weak for not leaving  but stronger for staying.
               

How interesting!  That's a wonderful way of putting it, lightnin flat.  There seems to be much much more to wat you say here than meets the eye...

[lightnin flat]

How interesting!  That's a wonderful way of putting it, lightnin flat.  There seems to be much much more to wat you say here than meets the eye...

           hi ya 
               I think alma was weak for not confronting ennis about jack.
                  How could a woman still sleep with her husband knowing he has got a THING going with another man not unless she didnt mind wich alma clearly did mind [or did she] .Alma saw ennis kiss jack in 1967 she didnt divorce him till 1975 so like you said that could make her stronger for staying and putting up with the situation for all those years. But to me thats not normal behaviour especially when ennis was going on supposed  trips3 or 4 times a year. Alma knew it wasnt a one of with jack when she see ennis kiss jack she knew only to well what went on when they went away.   
            Mind ,dont mind,weak ,or strong,maybe alma didnt love ennis enough to care what he done or maybe she loved him so much she was prepared to put up with the situation.
 
      At the thanksgiving dinner alma knew she was opening a can of worms when she said you ought to find someone else to marry.do you still go fishing with jack twist what a question to ask she obvisously felt stronger to confront ennis after all those years that could of been because she was with monroe and look how miserable she looked. 
                 As for cassie i dont think she would of put up withanything like that and to me that makes cassie stronger for not taking any nonsense .   

                      does any of that make sense
                       
   

[tpe]

           hi ya 
               I think alma was weak for not confronting ennis about jack.
                  How could a woman still sleep with her husband knowing he has got a THING going with another man not unless she didnt mind wich alma clearly did mind [or did she] .Alma saw ennis kiss jack in 1967 she didnt divorce him till 1975 so like you said that could make her stronger for staying and putting up with the situation for all those years. But to me thats not normal behaviour especially when ennis was going on supposed  trips3 or 4 times a year. Alma knew it wasnt a one of with jack when she see ennis kiss jack she knew only to well what went on when they went away.   
            Mind ,dont mind,weak ,or strong,maybe alma didnt love ennis enough to care what he done or maybe she loved him so much she was prepared to put up with the situation.
 
      At the thanksgiving dinner alma knew she was opening a can of worms when she said you ought to find someone else to marry.do you still go fishing with jack twist what a question to ask she obvisously felt stronger to confront ennis after all those years that could of been because she was with monroe and look how miserable she looked. 
                 As for cassie i dont think she would of put up withanything like that and to me that makes cassie stronger for not taking any nonsense .   

                      does any of that make sense

I wonder sometimes whether it was fear that made Alma keep quiet about what she knew.

On one hand, it is fear of Ennis and what he might do if he found out that he and Jack were spied upon.

On the other hand (and perhaps more significant here), perhaps Alma was initially more afraid of losing Ennis.  I think her love for him was genuine -- perhaps the only love she knew then.  Perhaps she was more afraid to lose what she had: the stability of a family, with husband and children, and being the mother and devoted wife.  This perhaps was what she only wanted, and she was not ready to give this all up initially because of what she saw.

But we are getting to be OT. 

For Cassie, it was probably best that she did not know.  I suspect that she may have just buckled when faced with that knowledge.

Unlike Alma though, Cassie seemed to also have dreams and ambitions.  She probably wouldn't have wanted to sacrifice all this for the sake of a love that lay elsewhere.

[lightnin flat]

I wonder sometimes whether it was fear that made Alma keep quiet about what she knew.

On one hand, it is fear of Ennis and what he might do if he found out that he and Jack were spied upon.

On the other hand (and perhaps more significant here), perhaps Alma was initially more afraid of losing Ennis.  I think her love for him was genuine -- perhaps the only love she knew then.  Perhaps she was more afraid to lose what she had: the stability of a family, with husband and children, and being the mother and devoted wife.  This perhaps was what she only wanted, and she was not ready to give this all up initially because of what she saw.

But we are getting to be OT. 

For Cassie, it was probably best that she did not know.  I suspect that she may have just buckled when faced with that knowledge.

Unlike Alma though, Cassie seemed to also have dreams and ambitions.  She probably wouldn't have wanted to sacrifice all this for the sake of a love that lay elsewhere.

 

          Yes alma could of feared ennis he did have a bit of a temper.     

             Yea cassie was i think more ambitous she did want to go to nursing school didnt she. 
 
                Ennis couldnt give his love to cassie because it did definately lay elsewhere. 
                I did like cassie i think if ennis was available to be with  her i get the feeling they would of been good together.       

[tpe]

 

          Yes alma could of feared ennis he did have a bit of a temper.     

             Yea cassie was i think more ambitous she did want to go to nursing school didnt she. 
 
                Ennis couldnt give his love to cassie because it did definately lay elsewhere. 
                I did like cassie i think if ennis was available to be with  her i get the feeling they would of been good together.       

And I think Ennis did the right thing by putting the blocks on Cassie.  Sure, he hurt her, but at least he tried to minimize the hurt.  Ennis was in a very difficult situation...

[welshwitch]

Cassie was in the end too much of a life force for Ennis, I think, too fond of music and dancing and company, the things Ennis resisted when he was with Alma. Jack had the same spirit but was able, maybe forced, to content himself with Ennis and no-one else when they were together.

[manhattangirl]

IMO:

Cassie was the last sign that Ennis break from what he tried to be, and what he was.  When he returned from the final confrontation with Jack, I think he finally accepted that Jack was who he was and what he wanted, and not seeking out Cassie, or returning her notes was the final break, even with him not realizing what he himself was doing. 

Without Jack life was bleak, and no woman, or even another man could replace what he had with Jack.    Ennis was those rare people who loved and loved for life, and how he lived reflects that. 

Ennis was indeed "a sensitive and passionate man", and all of it went to Jack.  It was this from the beginning and he doubled over in pain and anguish when he separated from Jack after the first summer to the end when he made the pilgrimage to Jack's childhood home. 

[tpe]

Cassie was in the end too much of a life force for Ennis, I think, too fond of music and dancing and company, the things Ennis resisted when he was with Alma. Jack had the same spirit but was able, maybe forced, to content himself with Ennis and no-one else when they were together.

The contrast between the two of them was quite significant, no?  Was it a case of "opposites attract" with Cassie?  She probably adored the image of Ennis as a strong, silent type.

[tpe]

IMO:

Cassie was the last sign that Ennis break from what he tried to be, and what he was.  When he returned from the final confrontation with Jack, I think he finally accepted that Jack was who he was and what he wanted, and not seeking out Cassie, or returning her notes was the final break, even with him not realizing what he himself was doing. 

Without Jack life was bleak, and no woman, or even another man could replace what he had with Jack.    Ennis was those rare people who loved and loved for life, and how he lived reflects that. 

Ennis was indeed "a sensitive and passionate man", and all of it went to Jack.  It was this from the beginning and he doubled over in pain and anguish when he separated from Jack after the first summer to the end when he made the pilgrimage to Jack's childhood home. 

Yes, I think that it signified a deliberate break from his former self.  This is another reason why I think that Ennis may have been gearing up for a significant change.  It is unfortunate that Cassie turned out to be the proving ground on which Ennis's conflicting emotions did battle. Unfortunate, but perhaps inevitable.

[welshwitch]

In some ways Cassie is anther version of Alma, I think, the conventional woman who wants to marry and settle down and raise a family, in order to do which she simply looks for a male who fits the conventional mould. Cassie isn't deeply committed emotionally to Ennis or she wouldn't so quickly have found a replacement - she will eventually get a man but he won't be the man, as Jack is for Ennis. Alma seems much the same to me - she settles for Monroe and a conventional lower middle-class marriage. Ennis and Jack are lovers in the Romeo and Juliet or Antony and cleopatra mould - caught up in a love that has nothing to do with convention or satisfying society's expectations or linked to material well-being, just something that's too powerful to resist.

[myprivatejack]

I agree with you,ww,in that both Alma and Cassie are two sides of the same coin;as I said in another post to Babytammy,they speak the same language,but in two different dialects...I mean that Cassie was looking for a suitable man to settle down,although her way of getting it is bolder and more agressive sexually,more in the line of a "femme fatale".(?).However,Alma is an humble and rather conventional country girl who had never thought in take the initiative in flirting because"it´s something done by men".But I disagree in that Cassie didn´t fall in love with Ennis,although she had found a replacement more or less quickly;for this same reason,Jack wouldn´t love Ennis so much because he looked for and found a replacement also in Randall.Sometimes,you need someone to make you feel alive after a break with the one you love,it´s like a "defense mechanism".

[tpe]

In some ways Cassie is anther version of Alma, I think, the conventional woman who wants to marry and settle down and raise a family, in order to do which she simply looks for a male who fits the conventional mould. Cassie isn't deeply committed emotionally to Ennis or she wouldn't so quickly have found a replacement - she will eventually get a man but he won't be the man, as Jack is for Ennis. Alma seems much the same to me - she settles for Monroe and a conventional lower middle-class marriage. Ennis and Jack are lovers in the Romeo and Juliet or Antony and cleopatra mould - caught up in a love that has nothing to do with convention or satisfying society's expectations or linked to material well-being, just something that's too powerful to resist.

The intersting thing is that I somehow felt that Cassie was even less committed to Carl than to Ennis.  I had even wondered whether she went with Carl in a last desperate attempt to gain Ennis's attention.

Presonally, I think she invested more time with Ennis.  I think it was years that they saw each other no?  For a woman in her 20s, that is a serious thing, in my estimation.  I really think he wanted Ennis much more than Ennis was prepared to give.