Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: Italian_Dude on May 01, 2006, 06:33 PM
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I watched BBM again last night with both of my parents and they both loved it, and my mom cried like a baby!
Also, my mom brought something to my attention I never thought of before..
When Cassie is with Alma Jr and Ennis and she is talking alone with Alma and she asks if Ennis will ever see fit to settle down again, Alma Jr responds
"Maybe he's not the marrying kind"
At that point my mom said, "she knows"
And then I thought about it, and I seriously think my mom could be right, I believe Alma Jr knew..
My mom said, "of course she knows, when Alma found out Ennis was with Jack, she was crying holding her [Alma Jr].. now she's older, she must have told her why, and explained about what really caused their divorce. She must have told her daughter about it, or mentioned something about it. I would have. Trust me, Alma Jr knows"
Its not stated officially anywhere that Alma Jr knew, but it very well could be. Now that I think about it, I get that vibe from her..
What do you guys think??
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I think she knew when Jack drove all the way from Childress unannounced after Ennis' divorce. I'm sure the girls overheard some of the conversation daddy & Jack had while they were sitting in the truck. Did you also notice that Alma Jr's face turned from a smile to a frown when Ennis drove up in the truck to pick her up when she saw a woman (Cassie) in the truck with him? She was probably thinking "oh no, daddy, you won't be happy with a woman - stop denying it and go with Jack!" :'(
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thats an interesting question..um I think she might have suspected that her dad had trouble with relationships and women in general. She may have thought her dad liked men or Jack alot..I also think she wanted her father to be happy instead of sad and gloomy. It probally hurt her to see her dad is so much pain and heart ache..from being in an loveless marriage to dating someone he really didn't love either. Kids always seem to be able to pick up on things, either it be good times or hard times or sad times. they have this way of knowing something is off..and I think she knew something was wrong with her farther in the sense he was unhappy. So did she know it is a possibly she did know.
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I think she knew when Jack drove all the way from Childress unannounced after Ennis' divorce. I'm sure the girls overheard some of the conversation daddy & Jack had while they were sitting in the truck. Did you also notice that Alma Jr's face turned from a smile to a frown when Ennis drove up in the truck to pick her up when she saw a woman (Cassie) in the truck with him? She was probably thinking "oh no, daddy, you won't be happy with a woman - stop denying it and go with Jack!" :'(
Yes, thats a good point I never noticed that!!
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Here are two other threads on this subject you might be interested in.
http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=638.0
http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=2991.0
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The threads pointed out by Patriot1 are indeed of interest to this.
I personally think she knew. But I still waver as to whether she said this phrase as an oblique warning to Cassie, or as just a subtle statement of the truth...
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I think she knew, too, but I don't think it was because Alma ever told her. It took Alma years to say anything to Ennis about what she knew, so there's no reason to think that she would have spoken to anyone else.
I reckon that Junior suspected about her dad because of what she and Jenny saw when Jack arrived after Ennis's divorce and as she grew up and learned more about the world she would have put two and two together.
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Did you also notice that Alma Jr's face turned from a smile to a frown when Ennis drove up in the truck to pick her up when she saw a woman (Cassie) in the truck with him? She was probably thinking "oh no, daddy, you won't be happy with a woman - stop denying it and go with Jack!" :'(
I saw that expression but I didn't think that was the reason... I thought that she probably wanted her daddy all to herself (when she finally gets to spend some time with him) and didn't wanna share him with anyone else... and that's why she reacted like that when she saw Cassie. Also, I think it's not uncommon for children of divorced people to be suspicious towards their parent's new partners...
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Did you also notice that Alma Jr's face turned from a smile to a frown when Ennis drove up in the truck to pick her up when she saw a woman (Cassie) in the truck with him? She was probably thinking "oh no, daddy, you won't be happy with a woman - stop denying it and go with Jack!" :'(
I saw that expression but I didn't think that was the reason... I thought that she probably wanted her daddy all to herself (when she finally gets to spend some time with him) and didn't wanna share him with anyone else... and that's why she reacted like that when she saw Cassie. Also, I think it's not uncommon for children of divorced people to be suspicious towards their parent's new partners...
What you say keren_b is true, but, you also have to look at her face when Cassie drags, literally, Ennis to the dance floor. She had such a look of sadness on her face as she knew her Daddy was just going through the motions and really wasn't into what was going on.
I think she knew. I think that is why she wanted to move in with him, so she could take care of him and he wouldn't feel pressured to get married again. This movie is 40% words and 60% facial expressions and they all do a wonderful job at it.
Alma Jr sees her father driving down the street. She smiles.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi43.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe359%2FPatriotOne%2FAlmaJR01.jpg&hash=3ed4a0fe53ac402cc30b6c90c08922a1082453f0)
Alma Jr sees that Cassie is in the truck. She frowns.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi43.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe359%2FPatriotOne%2FAlmaJR02.jpg&hash=a8b222f3bd96d078c1dceea3b601e9e5bb8b9648)
Alma Jr watches as Cassie drags her Daddy to the dance floor. She looks sad for him. Look at her eyes. She knows her Daddy loves Jack but she doesn't know how to help him.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi43.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe359%2FPatriotOne%2FAlmaJR03.jpg&hash=f068c72c45918687beaeaec20762b12ad18610f3)
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I think she knew. I think that is why she wanted to move in with him, so she could take care of him and he wouldn't feel pressured to get married again. This movie is 40% words and 60% facial expressions and they all do a wonderful job at it.
This is a wonderful interpretation. I shall give it a home in my heart.
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What you say keren_b is true, but, you also have to look at her face when Cassie drags, literally, Ennis to the dance floor. She had such a look of sadness on her face as she knew her Daddy was just going through the motions and really wasn't into what was going on.
So that's another one to add to the "what if's" then - what if Alma Jr had said something to her dad about not being ashamed of who he was and that had helped him to overcome his fears and give in to Jack? If anyone could have convinced him it was ok, I suspect it was Junior.
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Whether she knew or not, I'm sure she'd be very accepting. I just feel it. We know Alma jr loves her dad a lot and cares for him very much, I honestly believe that she'd want him to be happy with Jack... if Ennis would've told her about his love for Jack (which of course he would never ever do) I think she'd say "oh daddy, go for it..." I don't know why but that's the way I feel. :)
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I just added 3 pictures to my post 3 or 4 back up the line if you want to see them.
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So that's another one to add to the "what if's" then - what if Alma Jr had said something to her dad about not being ashamed of who he was and that had helped him to overcome his fears and give in to Jack? If anyone could have convinced him it was ok, I suspect it was Junior.
Indeed, this is a tantalizing possibility. What would Junior have said? Perhaps: 'follow your heart.' But I am still not sure how Ennis would have reacted. His daughter's consent would be a great personal victory for him, but society at learge remains the way it is...
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this thread is great! (okay, now that i got that out of the way, on to the topic:)
in my opinion, she knew and maybe wanted cassie to back off with these words...
actually, i kind of identify with junior in the movie, because i'm very close to my dad, too. and he's also not really a guy who talks a whole lot...
i know that i knew about my dad's new girlfriend way before he told me. and even though my sister isn't as close to him as me, she knew, too. so, it would seem natural for junior to know about jack or at least about the way ennis felt.
someone here said that maybe alma told her - i don't think so... i think she figured it out on her own. i mean, she knew about the "fishing trips" with jack and then, all of a sudden, jack comes up all the way from childress right after the divorce. and i'm also pretty sure that she overheard at least part of the conversation between jack and ennis there...
well, i'll need more time to think about this matter more thoroughly. ::) i'll be back
thanks so much, I_D for opening up this topic!
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i think she figured it out on her own. i mean, she knew about the "fishing trips" with jack and then, all of a sudden, jack comes up all the way from childress right after the divorce. and i'm also pretty sure that she overheard at least part of the conversation between jack and ennis there...
Somehow, I also think that she just deduced it over the years. She may have overheard things by way of her mother or when Ennis met Jack after the divorce. Her bond with her father seems pretty strong not to think she sensed how he felt many times.
I wonder if Jenny was less attached to her father... It seems that both daughters were very fond of Ennis. Only Alma Jr. in later life was shown, although it was implied that she continued to see both of them ('I'll pick you and Jenny up after church...')
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Well, assuming that she knew, it gives a new meaning to her line to Cassie - "you're good enough"... it was another way to say "you're as good as any other woman", knowing that her dad will never trully love any woman no matter who she is.
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Well, assuming that she knew, it gives a new meaning to her line to Cassie - "you're good enough"... it was another way to say "you're as good as any other woman", knowing that her dad will never trully love any woman no matter who she is.
Indeed, this is an excellent point. It does give a deeper meaning to her response. The feeling one gets from her tone of voice is: 'it does not matter to him.'
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Well, assuming that she knew, it gives a new meaning to her line to Cassie - "you're good enough"... it was another way to say "you're as good as any other woman", knowing that her dad will never trully love any woman no matter who she is.
Indeed, this is an excellent point. It does give a deeper meaning to her response. The feeling one gets from her tone of voice is: 'it does not matter to him.'
Took the words out of my mouth again tpe!
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If there ever was a sequel to BBM, I would like to see the dynamics between Alma Jr and Ennis unfold....
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I have often thought about this topic in relation to the scene when Jack does drive all the way from Texas to Riverton to see Ennis thinking that Ennis will be happy to see him and also that Ennis will probably go away with him (at least for the weekend)
There is no way that a young perceptive girl like Alma Jr could let that go by. The way that Ennis and Jack hugged had to look suspicious to her (I doubt that she saw her father hug any other man at all, much less like that) and as was said before some of the conversation and the obvious disappointment on Jack's face as well as Ennis' nervousness must also have broken through to her. She had to at least suspect at this point that their relationship was unusual. I don't agree that Alma told her daughter about Ennis and Jack. This was 1975 (I believe) and having lived through that era it was still pretty taboo to talk about "gay" relationships especially to a young impressionable girl. Alma might have told her that Ennis was lacking as a husband in some ways, but I doubt she would have gone further.
After that weekend with the girls I would think that Ennis and Alma probably had a bit of a strained relationship. She was likely a bit quieter than usual and was trying to assess what exactly might have been going on. She probably also knew about the fishing trips with Jack (in fact I am sure she did, since the trips were not kept secret) so the pieces would begin to come together quickly. By the time she met Cassie she knew......My take anyway
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Well, assuming that she knew, it gives a new meaning to her line to Cassie - "you're good enough"... it was another way to say "you're as good as any other woman", knowing that her dad will never trully love any woman no matter who she is.
You hit the nial on the head keren_b! I think that is exactly what she is saying.
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I have often thought about this topic in relation to the scene when Jack does drive all the way from Texas to Riverton to see Ennis thinking that Ennis will be happy to see him and also that Ennis will probably go away with him (at least for the weekend)
There is no way that a young perceptive girl like Alma Jr could let that go by. The way that Ennis and Jack hugged had to look suspicious to her (I doubt that she saw her father hug any other man at all, much less like that) and as was said before some of the conversation and the obvious disappointment on Jack's face as well as Ennis' nervousness must also have broken through to her. She had to at least suspect at this point that their relationship was unusual. I don't agree that Alma told her daughter about Ennis and Jack. This was 1975 (I believe) and having lived through that era it was still pretty taboo to talk about "gay" relationships especially to a young impressionable girl. Alma might have told her that Ennis was lacking as a husband in some ways, but I doubt she would have gone further.
I'd like to go OT for a moment and discuss this scene. If you look closely, the boys are standing back behind the windows of the truck so the girls could not have seen the embrace unless they were leaning forward and looking out the drivers window and when Ennis introduces Jack to them they are sitting up looking straight forward and seem a little shy looking at Jack. Maybe they did peek as the car came up. Also when Jack and Ennis hug Jack puts his hand up to Ennis head and ear and Ennis gently but firmly removes it, a prelude to letting Jack know they are not alone.
Back OT I believe Alma Jr. knew.
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they could have looked in the rearview mirror :)
(Edit: there is no rearview mirror but there are side mirrors on Ennis' truck)
But I think Junior knew...she might not know WHAT she knew but I think she knew either that Jack ment something to her father more than as a friend or she knew that her father was "different"
Like it has been sayd here, small children can pick up on things us adults can't see even if we are hit across the face with it. When jack comes to see Ennis after 4 years we see Junior running past Ennis just before Ennis hears the truck. Whos to sy that Little Junior didn't go to the window to look out and saw the kiss? Nothing to imply she wasn't in the livingroom so mayby...when Jack and Ennis come up to say hi to Alma we hear the girls close by.
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I think she was aware of all this, if you remember even as a child she was looking after her father if you watch the scene in which alma leaves the house and goes to work you see Junior watching her dad as he walks up the stairs upset, i mean she was really since little linked to him across she is growing she seems to be the only one of them that try to talk with Ennis i don't mean jenny didn't want it but she is not mentioned is always Jr. the one that does the moves to talk to him. when jack goes to Ennis after the divorce i notice that Jack was going to kiss Ennis and he did a quick move stop that then he introduced his girls i mean I'm lost all the time and i notice that so if i was able of course Junior was able. after all growing with her father she obviously would have seeing Ennis excitement to see jack and go "fishing" and then how he was on his return. i think she knew that and she was telling Cassie that she was good enough to be Ennis cover, i mean i read on an article in which Dianna Ossana said that probably the whole town was aware that Ennis was homosexual. she knew there was something special between her dad and Jack and she probably as you said here got everthing clear during the years. she was a perfect daughter and she would probably take care of him when he is unable to take care of himself. Girls love their dad in very special way and that is a fact
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Girls love their dad in very special way and that is a fact
Yes and sometimes we know too much about them :)
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Girls love their dad in very special way and that is a fact
Yes and sometimes we know too much about them :)
tell me that i have sister and sometimes seems she knows my dad better than me, i am the one that talks to him more and live with him
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they could have looked in the rearview mirror :)
(Edit: there is no rearview mirror but there are side mirrors on Ennis' truck)
Ok, another edit, there IS a rearview mirror there....and when looking at it now... well..go have a look at Juniors face when Ennis introduces them..it's like "hehe, you like him" and kinda embarrased about seeing it
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they could have looked in the rearview mirror :)
(Edit: there is no rearview mirror but there are side mirrors on Ennis' truck)
Ok, another edit, there IS a rearview mirror there....and when looking at it now... well..go have a look at Juniors face when Ennis introduces them..it's like "hehe, you like him" and kinda embarrased about seeing it
Yes ! I thought that too!
Its a whole bunch of scenes that make me believe she knew.
I don't think Alma told Junior either, that was my moms reaction after her first viewing, but I agree that she knew and picked it up somehow..!
I could talk about this for days hahaha! Its so interesting lol!
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At one point on one of the camping trips Ennis tellls Jack he thinks people in Riverton look a him oddly "suspicious... like they know" when he goes out. If he is the focus of local gossip no doubt the girls would pick this up in school or in church - oblique comments about how right Alma was to leave Ennis and marry Munro, what a good substitute father he made, etc. It's a small town in a conservative area - Ennis would almost certainly attract gossip.
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At one point on one of the camping trips Ennis tellls Jack he thinks people in Riverton look a him oddly "suspicious... like they know" when he goes out.
I think it was just Ennis being paranoid... because he was so terrified of people finding out.
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At one point on one of the camping trips Ennis tellls Jack he thinks people in Riverton look a him oddly "suspicious... like they know" when he goes out. If he is the focus of local gossip no doubt the girls would pick this up in school or in church - oblique comments about how right Alma was to leave Ennis and marry Munro, what a good substitute father he made, etc. It's a small town in a conservative area - Ennis would almost certainly attract gossip.
Yes, I agree. Ennis's comments are not pure paranoia. There must have been some truth to his observations. Alma could certainly not have kept silent in the face of her second husband's questioning in the Thanksgiving scene. From there, it is not hard to imagine that something must have been spread abroad about Ennis...
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At one point on one of the camping trips Ennis tellls Jack he thinks people in Riverton look a him oddly "suspicious... like they know" when he goes out. If he is the focus of local gossip no doubt the girls would pick this up in school or in church - oblique comments about how right Alma was to leave Ennis and marry Munro, what a good substitute father he made, etc. It's a small town in a conservative area - Ennis would almost certainly attract gossip.
Good point...
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I am very torn over what Alma Jr knows. I want her to know, and while I have (so far) held off on reading fan fiction, I have my own mental scenarios about what happens to Ennis after the film ends. Alma Jr telling her father "I understand about Jack and it's okay, Daddy" is an intoxicatingly appealing fantasy.
Why I think Alma Jr knows:
(1) The face of the girls in the truck when Jack comes up post-divorce. The face of the older Jr is all inquisitive and skeptical trying to figure it all out. The face of younger Jenny is a giggly "guess what I saw you two doing!".
(2) The kids had to know that Jack was the fishing buddy all those years when the finally met them. Ennis' mood almost certainly changed a great deal after Jack left and Ennis so clearly knew he could not satisfy Jack.
(3) Kids often pick up on things that adults don't, or don't want to.
But there are nagging items that make me think this is all wishful thinking on my part:
(1) Jr's effort to stay with Ennis is all about keeping Cassie at bay. At least that's how I see it. I don't think she *really* hates it at home so much. I think she's trying to come between Cassie and Ennis. If she's living with Ennis, Cassie can't stay over. This would explain Junior's actions without it being "my daddy belongs with Jack".
(2) Sometimes people closest to a situation are the last to see it. Yes, little kids pick up on things, but when it is your own dad, at a certain point you become the person most likely to have be blind to the truth. Too much already "decided" about who your father is.
I just dunno. I want to think that Junior understood. Anyone able to remove my doubts?
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(1) Jr's effort to stay with Ennis is all about keeping Cassie at bay. At least that's how I see it. I don't think she *really* hates it at home so much. I think she's trying to come between Cassie and Ennis. If she's living with Ennis, Cassie can't stay over. This would explain Junior's actions without it being "my daddy belongs with Jack".
(2) Sometimes people closest to a situation are the last to see it. Yes, little kids pick up on things, but when it is your own dad, at a certain point you become the person most likely to have be blind to the truth. Too much already "decided" about who your father is.
I just dunno. I want to think that Junior understood. Anyone able to remove my doubts?
well, i gotta say sth. about your first doubt... i don't think she only wanted to stay with ennis to keep cassie away.. that could be a good point, too, but i'd say that's not the major factor... in my opinion, she really couldn't stand the "happy family" with alma and monroe, anymore. i'd totally understand that. she doesn't want to be in a family that doesn't feel like "hers", but just stay with ennis whom she always had a special bond to. (remember how he picked her up just before the first fishing trip? i think that was adorable... even though he gave her to alma right after)
about the second doubt. well, i guess i can't say anything to that because that's also something i had been thinking about. she is so close to her dad that she just doesn't want to see him hurt and doesn't want to see anything "bad" in him - and remember that even today a lot of people think that being gay eqals being a bad person... i guess you do have a point there...
hm, more to think about. ::)
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I am very torn over what Alma Jr knows. I want her to know, and while I have (so far) held off on reading fan fiction, I have my own mental scenarios about what happens to Ennis after the film ends. Alma Jr telling her father "I understand about Jack and it's okay, Daddy" is an intoxicatingly appealing fantasy.
Why I think Alma Jr knows:
(1) The face of the girls in the truck when Jack comes up post-divorce. The face of the older Jr is all inquisitive and skeptical trying to figure it all out. The face of younger Jenny is a giggly "guess what I saw you two doing!".
(2) The kids had to know that Jack was the fishing buddy all those years when the finally met them. Ennis' mood almost certainly changed a great deal after Jack left and Ennis so clearly knew he could not satisfy Jack.
(3) Kids often pick up on things that adults don't, or don't want to.
But there are nagging items that make me think this is all wishful thinking on my part:
(1) Jr's effort to stay with Ennis is all about keeping Cassie at bay. At least that's how I see it. I don't think she *really* hates it at home so much. I think she's trying to come between Cassie and Ennis. If she's living with Ennis, Cassie can't stay over. This would explain Junior's actions without it being "my daddy belongs with Jack".
(2) Sometimes people closest to a situation are the last to see it. Yes, little kids pick up on things, but when it is your own dad, at a certain point you become the person most likely to have be blind to the truth. Too much already "decided" about who your father is.
I just dunno. I want to think that Junior understood. Anyone able to remove my doubts?
All very good points, dalemidex, especially about Jr only wanting to live with Ennis to keep Cassie at bay. I think it's obvious that she was a daddy's girl and maybe she just didn't want anyone to come between her and her dad.
I don't think it's possible to remove the doubts on this one - I guess it's all up to what you want to believe, just like so many other "unanswered questions" in this amazing story/movie.
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At one point on one of the camping trips Ennis tellls Jack he thinks people in Riverton look a him oddly "suspicious... like they know" when he goes out. If he is the focus of local gossip no doubt the girls would pick this up in school or in church - oblique comments about how right Alma was to leave Ennis and marry Munro, what a good substitute father he made, etc. It's a small town in a conservative area - Ennis would almost certainly attract gossip.
Ennis' STAYING single would also attract attention. And, Alma Jr. lives with her mother and Monroe...I'll bet Alma Sr. told Monroe some things about her marriage to Ennis and Jr. may have overheard.
But, Jr. is LOYAL to her dad, no matter what.
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At one point on one of the camping trips Ennis tellls Jack he thinks people in Riverton look a him oddly "suspicious... like they know" when he goes out. If he is the focus of local gossip no doubt the girls would pick this up in school or in church - oblique comments about how right Alma was to leave Ennis and marry Munro, what a good substitute father he made, etc. It's a small town in a conservative area - Ennis would almost certainly attract gossip.
Ennis' STAYING single would also attract attention. And, Alma Jr. lives with her mother and Monroe...I'll bet Alma Sr. told Monroe some things about her marriage to Ennis and Jr. may have overheard.
But, Jr. is LOYAL to her dad, no matter what.
I do think Monroe probably knew. And the gut feel of a lot of us here (from the old threads) is that Jr. must have known.
Jr. loves her dad. She knows that there is a part of him that cannot be touched. In that part, you will see Jack Twist.
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Jr. loves her dad. She knows that there is a part of him that cannot be touched. In that part, you will see Jack Twist.
i love how you always find the right words, tpe. thanks for expressing my exact feelings on their relationship. :^^)
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Jr. loves her dad. She knows that there is a part of him that cannot be touched. In that part, you will see Jack Twist.
i love how you always find the right words, tpe. thanks for expressing my exact feelings on their relationship. :^^)
Ditto...that's an absolutely beautfiul way you've put it. As always.... :)
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Jr is also like Jack, open to love, ready to look for it wherever, able to admit to her feelings, unlike Ennis and apparently unlike her mother too. So is she the Jack part of Ennis, the part he spends half his life trying to repress and deny?
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There are two other threads about Alma Jr and did she know. Here are the links:
http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=2991.0
and
http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=638.0
enjoy.
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Remember in the Thanksgiving scene Alma Sr. says that she and the girls worry about Ennis being alone so much, which leads me to believe that they dicussed their father at times, Alma Jr. shows unconditional for her father and just wants him to be happy. I don't think she knew for sure about her father and Jack but I feel she definitly suspected them.She was old enogh at the time when Jack came to Ennis after the divorce to remember meeting Jack inthe truck. They also spoke to Jack . All of this does'nt really tell us if she knew for sure but she only saw Cassie once but as many years as Ennis went "fishing" , she had to equate the " fishing buddy" with Jack.
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Remember in the Thanksgiving scene Alma Sr. says that she and the girls worry about Ennis being alone so much, which leads me to believe that they dicussed their father at times, Alma Jr. shows unconditional for her father and just wants him to be happy. I don't think she knew for sure about her father and Jack but I feel she definitly suspected them.She was old enogh at the time when Jack came to Ennis after the divorce to remember meeting Jack inthe truck. They also spoke to Jack . All of this does'nt really tell us if she knew for sure but she only saw Cassie once but as many years as Ennis went "fishing" , she had to equate the " fishing buddy" with Jack.
I feel the same way. But even if she knew, Alma Jr. respected the inviolate space of her father's love. She reached out to him, but never intruded.
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I kind of like the idea that as she's in love herself, she feels sympathy for her father too - she needn't know he loves Jack but may well sense that there are some sort of deep emtions involved.
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Hi! this is only my opinion but i believe she know from much years ago and she was the only who really accept his father... i love this young girl
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Hi! this is only my opinion but i believe she know from much years ago and she was the only who really accept his father... i love this young girl
I agree with you JeffJoe. For 20 years Alma Jr. saw her daddy all excited to be going fishing with Jack and she saw him come home all perky. The rest of the time he was stoical and hum drum. And I am sure she knew it was Jack because she probably heard Ennis telling Alma something like, now don't forget Jack and I are going fishing next week. She knew, but like TPE said, she never invaded his private space.
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The ss also says that part of Alma's resentment of Ennis was that he never went off anywhere with her or the girld, so the two girls growing up must have realised that Jack was something special, as he's the only one for whom Ennis gives up work for a while.
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There is a strange parallel between Alma, Jr., and her father. She's 19 at the end of the movie, and in circumstances much like Ennis's when he was 19 at the beginning. Her personality is very much like his, and she even looks like him. I actually even wondered if she was a lesbian, destined to make the same mistake as Ennis by getting married before she knew what she was.
But regardless of that, I think she knew her father because she resembled him so much, not because she had really figured anything out specifically about him. I think she knew he wasn't the marrying kind intuitively, without really knowing at the time she said it exactly why he wasn't.
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There is a strange parallel between Alma, Jr., and her father. She's 19 at the end of the movie, and in circumstances much like Ennis's when he was 19 at the beginning. Her personality is very much like his, and she even looks like him. I actually even wondered if she was a lesbian, destined to make the same mistake as Ennis by getting married before she knew what she was.
But regardless of that, I think she knew her father because she resembled him so much, not because she had really figured anything out specifically about him. I think she knew he wasn't the marrying kind intuitively, without really knowing at the time she said it exactly why he wasn't.
Interesting idea TexRob. I'm going to have to think on this.
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What a scary idea. The only argument I can come up with against it is that I don't think Ennis would have been so openly happy before he married Alma, and wouldn't have been so ready to use the word " love".
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What a scary idea. The only argument I can come up with against it is that I don't think Ennis would have been so openly happy before he married Alma, and wouldn't have been so ready to use the word " love".
One interesting question is just how happy Alma, Jr., actually is. I didn't interpret the statement, "Yes, Daddy, he loves me" to necessarily reflect a positive affirmation -- it could have been no more than a mechanical response to a stock question. And her smile was all too brief, more at her father's reaction than anything else.
My feeling was that Alma, Jr., was very introverted, much like her father, and possibly owing to the similarities between their experiences growing up. My niece disagrees with my interpretation. But like almost all of the scenes, Ang Lee allows just enough wiggle room for us to look at it more than one way.
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One interesting question is just how happy Alma, Jr., actually is. I didn't interpret the statement, "Yes, Daddy, he loves me" to necessarily reflect a positive affirmation -- it could have been no more than a mechanical response to a stock question. And her smile was all too brief, more at her father's reaction than anything else.
I for one felt she was happy... I thought she looked in love, her voice was tender, and that smile and shine in her eyes when she said "yeah daddy he loves me", seemed to me she had deep feelings for Kurt. I guess it's all a matter of interpretation, we see what we believe in.
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She comes all the way out to Ennis's trailer-park to find him and ask him to come to her wedding, and looks delighted when he says yes. Except when she's in doubt about his response, she looks as if she genuinely feels happy. But perhaps we're being influenced by the fanfic or our own wishful thinking.
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At one point on one of the camping trips Ennis tellls Jack he thinks people in Riverton look a him oddly "suspicious... like they know" when he goes out. If he is the focus of local gossip no doubt the girls would pick this up in school or in church - oblique comments about how right Alma was to leave Ennis and marry Munro, what a good substitute father he made, etc. It's a small town in a conservative area - Ennis would almost certainly attract gossip.
Ennis' STAYING single would also attract attention. And, Alma Jr. lives with her mother and Monroe...I'll bet Alma Sr. told Monroe some things about her marriage to Ennis and Jr. may have overheard.
But, Jr. is LOYAL to her dad, no matter what.
I do think Monroe probably knew. And the gut feel of a lot of us here (from the old threads) is that Jr. must have known.
Jr. loves her dad. She knows that there is a part of him that cannot be touched. In that part, you will see Jack Twist.
I would say Monroe knew for sure . Possibly Jr. may have known but it is hard to say for sure she seems like she kept a lot of feelings to herself. As you say about a part of Jack that cannot be touched, even if she did know then this is the part that she would have found too difficult to talk to her dad about.
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She comes all the way out to Ennis's trailer-park to find him and ask him to come to her wedding, and looks delighted when he says yes. Except when she's in doubt about his response, she looks as if she genuinely feels happy. But perhaps we're being influenced by the fanfic or our own wishful thinking.
I think you're right, ww, about Jr. being genuinely happy. And I don't think we're imaging the tenderness in her eyes after her dad asks if that fella loves her. She appears very moved that her so stoic father would ask this of her. It's a very sweet moment between them. Open to interpretaton, of course, as are all things, but I see it that way, too (did before any fanfic influence, also, btw. ;) )
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i think it very plausible she knew. i also think she may even have supported it
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Even in ss Ennis had some kind of relationship with his daughter, when the ranch he was working on was being sold, he knew he could go to his daughter. I don't think that it was secret about him and Jack, I think it was more of "don't ask, don't tell".
In intimate family relationships, secrets aren't much of a secret, something known but not discuss. When Alma, Jr. made the comment, "Maybe he's not the marrying kind", whether or not she knew, she knew something about her father. I don't think it was jealousy, but an protectiveness towards him. Kids aren't dumb as we think. And why would she make a comment like that, how would someone so young know what type of man her father is, unless something deeply sensed, she could have easily said "he's still hung up on mom", if she wanted to be really bratty.
Anyways that my 2cents.
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Wow, I can't believe that I am still discovering great topics from long ago in this forum. It's amazing.
Hi! this is only my opinion but i believe she know from much years ago and she was the only who really accept his father... i love this young girl
I've never thought of it this way, jeffjoe, and I think you are right. Of all the women in Ennis' life, she is the only one who stuck with him even to the end. She must have known from the time she told Cassie that he's not the marrying kind, or at least suspected. And she didn't care, she offered to move in with him. She truly loved and accepted him. I knew there is something special with Alma Jr. I just didn't know what it was until you put it into words. Her acceptance is another unspoken word that Ennis never heard, and so kept his own secret. I think the moment when Ennis asked her if Kurt loved her, was also a moment when this secret was momentarily hinted at, and with tears in her eyes, she knew and understood the regret in Ennis' voice, and said her response with love and compassion. You are right, jeffjoe, Alma Jr is lovely.
There is a strange parallel between Alma, Jr., and her father. She's 19 at the end of the movie, and in circumstances much like Ennis's when he was 19 at the beginning. Her personality is very much like his, and she even looks like him. I actually even wondered if she was a lesbian, destined to make the same mistake as Ennis by getting married before she knew what she was.
But regardless of that, I think she knew her father because she resembled him so much, not because she had really figured anything out specifically about him. I think she knew he wasn't the marrying kind intuitively, without really knowing at the time she said it exactly why he wasn't.
TexRob, sorry, but I cannot disagree with you more. I think like many girls who idolize and love their fathers, they seek out husbands who fit their image of him, not another him. And to Alma Jr., Ennis was a reticent rough and uneducated man with difficulty expressing emotions, in other words, a rough neck, like Kurt. I cannot see any reason why she would be considered a lesbian. If you see signs that I missed, I'd be happy to be convinced otherwise.
I think being nineteen is a universal threshold to love and romance. We have all been through that. I don't see any significant parallel between Alma Jr and Ennis.
I agree with you that she understands Ennis intuitively, but not because she resembles him, but because she loves him. With love, she empathize and understands. With love, she feels compassion and acceptance for him.
Even in ss Ennis had some kind of relationship with his daughter, when the ranch he was working on was being sold, he knew he could go to his daughter. I don't think that it was secret about him and Jack, I think it was more of "don't ask, don't tell".
In intimate family relationships, secrets aren't much of a secret, something known but not discuss. When Alma, Jr. made the comment, "Maybe he's not the marrying kind", whether or not she knew, she knew something about her father. I don't think it was jealousy, but an protectiveness towards him. Kids aren't dumb as we think. And why would she make a comment like that, how would a someone so young know what type of man her father is, she could have easily said "he still hung up on mom".
Anyways that my 2cents.
Manhattangirl, you are always right on the money. Your 2 cents are worth my two dollars, any day.
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i really guess we'll never know. i personally beleive jr knew and was supportive but its impossible to know for sure
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i really guess we'll never know. i personally beleive jr knew and was supportive but its impossible to know for sure
Impossible to know for a fact, but there is indeed enough circumstantial evidence to say that she did, IMO. :)
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Alma Jr's statement, "not the marrying kind " may have been something told to her by Alma in one of their discussions about their father regarding the divorce. Maybe Alma's only *safe* explaination to the girls about why she and their dad got divorced. Both of these young girls met Jack up close and personal . What teenage girl would'nt remember *daddys gorgeous friend*. ? Who else did Ennis know from outside Riverton? Ennis introduced him as just "Jack". The girls prompting Ennis to relive his rodeo experiences may have triggered Alma's concern about Jack still being in Ennis's life. Alma Jr. may have simply put 2 and 2 together. She was old enough to remember Ennis yearly *fishing trips*. Still no proof that she knew for sure ,Just speculation and and a few observations.
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Alma Jr's statement, "not the marrying kind " may have been something told to her by Alma in one of their discussions about their father regarding the divorce. Maybe Alma's only *safe* explaination to the girls about why she and their dad got divorced. Both of these young girls met Jack up close and personal . What teenage girl would'nt remember *daddys gorgeous friend*. ? Who else did Ennis know from outside Riverton? Ennis introduced him as just "Jack". The girls prompting Ennis to relive his rodeo experiences may have triggered Alma's concern about Jack still being in Ennis's life. Alma Jr. may have simply put 2 and 2 together. She was old enough to remember Ennis yearly *fishing trips*. Still no proof that she knew for sure ,Just speculation and and a few observations.
sound plausible to me im pretty sure she knew :)
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Perhaps the expression"He's not the marrying kind" answers to the reality of seeing that his father was into a single life with not much interest in another marriage-once burned...-,but with no deeper intentions in the phrase meaning.Perfectly Alma could have spoken her girls about how bad husband Ennis was,as a kind of put them against him,as it usually happens,unfortunately,in many not friendly agreement divorces...Not necessarily it must be for some suspicion about his father's sexuality;although it's true that the happiness Ennis showed every time he went and came back from a meeting with Jack could be easily realised by the girls after years and years of living it ,as well as the progressive break in their parents living...The important for me is that,not matter what,how and in what measure Jr. knew it;but that she respected her father and loved him very much as the father he had been for both of them,not for the person he could love.And that's says very much about her,and all for good...
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MPJ, I just pointed this out in another thread as a hint that Alma Jr. knoew more about her father.
I feel that the phrase was a subtle way of telling Cassie the truth about Ennis -- but, it could very well be interpreted as saying that Ennis was a loner, who was unable to keep up with a marriage. But I am biased -- I suspect that it was the former, and not the latter, although there is no sure way to prove it.
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MPJ, I just pointed this out in another thread as a hint that Alma Jr. knoew more about her father.
I feel that the phrase was a subtle way of telling Cassie the truth about Ennis -- but, it could very well be interpreted as saying that Ennis was a loner, who was unable to keep up with a marriage. But I am biased -- I suspect that it was the former, and not the latter, although there is no sure way to prove it.
Yes,I've just seen your post about the possibility that Jr. knew more about her father...Well,it can be a way to say Ennis wasn't a man done for marriage for his loner way of being,increased for some influence on Alma's side.Or also-why not? and perhaps the most probable possibility...-because she really suspected something after so many years of happy fishing trips with a fellow ;who could perfectly play the role of "the another woman" before Jr.´s eyes,mainly if she saw how his parents marriage was going to the dogs...All this united with the other possibility that she didn't like Cassie at all; half for herself,half for this kind of jealousy teenagers feel for their Father's new partners.But for me,I repite,the most important fact is that she was the only person who understood and respected her Father's option,if she really knew it.
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too many things happened when between ennis and alma when alma was young she must have asked her mother and i dont think alma would have denied her daughter the knowlage once she got a bit older
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too many things happened when between ennis and alma when alma was young she must have asked her mother and i dont think alma would have denied her daughter the knowlage once she got a bit older
maybe she did, but I don't think she told her the hole truth :s)
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Thanks MPJ, zankou, and Emzan.
When I remember the look Jr. gave Ennis and Cassie while they danced, it seemed to me that I see pity in her eyes -- pity for both of them, but pity for Cassie, especially.
I waver between thinking whether Jr. despised or pitied Cassie -- I lean more towards the latter. She seemed to have known from the start that Cassie was bound to be disappointed.
Then again, as MPJ noted, there is a clear case to justify possibly resentment: Jr. wanted to ask Ennis if she could live with him, with the understanding that she would care for him. Thus, Cassie could be viewed as a threat to her plans, at it would again put her in a situation similar to being under Alma and Monroe. Perhaps this was reason enough for Jr. to feel threatened, and lends support to her not liking Cassie...
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Thanks MPJ, zankou, and Emzan.
When I remember the look Jr. gave Ennis and Cassie while they danced, it seemed to me that I see pity in her eyes -- pity for both of them, but pity for Cassie, especially.
I waver between thinking whether Jr. despised or pitied Cassie -- I lean more towards the latter. She seemed to have known from the start that Cassie was bound to be disappointed.
Then again, as MPJ noted, there is a clear case to justify possibly resentment: Jr. wanted to ask Ennis if she could live with him, with the understanding that she would care for him. Thus, Cassie could be viewed as a threat to her plans, at it would again put her in a situation similar to being under Alma and Monroe. Perhaps this was reason enough for Jr. to feel threatened, and lends support to her not liking Cassie...
I didn't think Jr. disliked Cassie, but that she had the natural wariness of a teenager watching a woman other than her mother putting the moves on her dad. I don't think there was anything personal here. I think the remark about Ennis not being the marrying kind just meant it didn't work out with her mom, so Cassie shouldn't think she would have any more luck with Ennis. I know young girls are jealous of anybody's attention to their dad, and this is, in MHO, just that at work here. I really do not think she knows or suspects that Ennis doesn't prefer women. I think young girls are too selfish to really think of their parents outside of their own relationship with them. To her, Ennis was Daddy, so cool your jets, Cassie.
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I didn't think Jr. disliked Cassie, but that she had the natural wariness of a teenager watching a woman other than her mother putting the moves on her dad. I don't think there was anything personal here. I think the remark about Ennis not being the marrying kind just meant it didn't work out with her mom, so Cassie shouldn't think she would have any more luck with Ennis. I know young girls are jealous of anybody's attention to their dad, and this is, in MHO, just that at work here. I really do not think she knows or suspects that Ennis doesn't prefer women. I think young girls are too selfish to really think of their parents outside of their own relationship with them. To her, Ennis was Daddy, so cool your jets, Cassie.
hmmmmmmm good point
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It is natural -- to be jealous of someone who might take her daddy away. I wonder whether she felt the same way about Monroe -- but I suspect that this was not the case in this instance. It seemed that the girls were closer to Ennis, perhaps because he refused to be the disciplinarian. Whatever the case, Jr.'s affection for her dad would have certainly made her suspicious of anyone trying to get in between them, no matter how well-meaning.
Still, I wonder at what Alma said during the Thanksgiving scene in the kitchen: that she and the girls worried about him and that what was implied that they wanted him to marry again? Or was this part about marrying again just Alma's point of view?
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It is natural -- to be jealous of someone who might take her daddy away. I wonder whether she felt the same way about Monroe -- but I suspect that this was not the case in this instance. It seemed that the girls were closer to Ennis, perhaps because he refused to be the disciplinarian. Whatever the case, Jr.'s affection for her dad would have certainly made her suspicious of anyone trying to get in between them, no matter how well-meaning.
Still, I wonder at what Alma said during the Thanksgiving scene in the kitchen: that she and the girls worried about him and that what was implied that they wanted him to marry again? Or was this part about marrying again just Alma's point of view?
i took at as almas point as a way to stop her and the girls worrying but you cant be sure i suppose :s)
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i took at as almas point as a way to stop her and the girls worrying but you cant be sure i suppose :s)
This is a possibility.
In any case, I think Jr. knew more about Ennis than is seen on the surface, and so, I would find it peculiar if Jr. truly wanted Ennis to remarry. Hence, I can understand her ambivalence towards Cassie.
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I think Alma Jr. did know...or at least suspected. After all, she saw for years how her father suddenly was happy right before and right after his trips with Jack. He'd go from the sullen brooding look, to smiles and joy and Alma Jr saw that only Jack made her dad feel that way. Only Jack made Ennis happy. So she must have suspected something, especially as she became a teenager. Besides, kids do pick up on things rather quickly. I think Junior had suspected something about her father and Jack since she was a child, and by the time Cassie came along she definitely knew. She knew Cassie didn't even stand a chance...her father already had one true love, and that was Jack.
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I think Alma Jr. did know...or at least suspected. After all, she saw for years how her father suddenly was happy right before and right after his trips with Jack. He'd go from the sullen brooding look, to smiles and joy and Alma Jr saw that only Jack made her dad feel that way. Only Jack made Ennis happy. So she must have suspected something, especially as she became a teenager. Besides, kids do pick up on things rather quickly. I think Junior had suspected something about her father and Jack since she was a child, and by the time Cassie came along she definitely knew. She knew Cassie didn't even stand a chance...her father already had one true love, and that was Jack.
hmm maybe junior was trying to more to protect cassie then anything i mean if she knew im sure she wouldnt want another woman to be made upset because her father was already in love with another man...
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hmm maybe junior was trying to more to protect cassie then anything i mean if she knew im sure she wouldnt want another woman to be made upset because her father was already in love with another man...
Yes, this was how I interpreted it...
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hmm maybe junior was trying to more to protect cassie then anything i mean if she knew im sure she wouldnt want another woman to be made upset because her father was already in love with another man...
Yes! She had already seen how unhappy her mother had been in her marriage, so she didn't want Cassie to be married to Ennis only to find out that the marriage is a lie and a cover and Ennis's true love is really a man named Jack. It wasn't worth it for Junior to see her father go throught that whole cycle again, and see Cassie go through the same thing that Alma had gone through. Junior was therefore protecting both her father because she knew who his true love was, and protecting Cassie because she didn't want Cassie to be heart-broken from unrequited love, since Jr. knew the real person her father truly loved was Jack.
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Alma Jr. loved her dad alot and also wantd to live with him...i dont think her mom told her anything..that was a shock for alma seeing Ennis with Jack..she would want to protect her daughters from that..i feel ama Jr. grew up thinking that her dad had some issues..what it was she was not sure....
she saw the way Jack came to meet Ennis after the divorce ..so must have suspected that something is going on.but was not sure what...then when she saw her dad with cassie she felt that its just a replacement.,..he dint love her...she knew that her dad wanted to be with Jack or atleast if not that she atleast knew that her dad had a soft corner for him and defintely is not marriage types...
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I think Alma Jr. did know...or at least suspected. After all, she saw for years how her father suddenly was happy right before and right after his trips with Jack. He'd go from the sullen brooding look, to smiles and joy and Alma Jr saw that only Jack made her dad feel that way. Only Jack made Ennis happy. So she must have suspected something, especially as she became a teenager. Besides, kids do pick up on things rather quickly. I think Junior had suspected something about her father and Jack since she was a child, and by the time Cassie came along she definitely knew. She knew Cassie didn't even stand a chance...her father already had one true love, and that was Jack.
I think this makes the most sense. Also, I'm sure she knows why Ennis asks her "This Kurt...he loves you?" I believe the tears in both of their eyes are acknowledging "yes, he loves me" & (unspoken) "Just as I know you loved Jack".
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Alma Jr. loved her dad alot and also wantd to live with him...i dont think her mom told her anything..that was a shock for alma seeing Ennis with Jack..she would want to protect her daughters from that..i feel ama Jr. grew up thinking that her dad had some issues..what it was she was not sure....
she saw the way Jack came to meet Ennis after the divorce ..so must have suspected that something is going on.but was not sure what...then when she saw her dad with cassie she felt that its just a replacement.,..he dint love her...she knew that her dad wanted to be with Jack or atleast if not that she atleast knew that her dad had a soft corner for him and defintely is not marriage types...
I also think that Alma didn't tell her childern directly about their father, but it is likely that the children would have suspected, especially after the Thanksgiving scene. It is hard to imagine that Monroe didn't know at some level about Ennis, and perhaps the children would have heard snippets or veiled references in conversations between their parents that they would later understand...
I do suspect that part of the reason why Jr. was not so thrilled about the affair with Cassie is that she already sort of suspected Ennis's true nature, and that he really didn't love Cassie. I interpret the "He's not the marrying kind" comment to be a veiled reference.
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Alma Jr. knew for sure, maybe at first she didn't knew that her father loves Jack because she was very young and didn't understand much about love, but she knew what they did up in the mountains and that made her father happy.
She asked Ennis to talk about Rodeo in thanksgiving dinner, but she never asked anywhere or anytime about his fishing trips or his friend because she knew that would be uncomfortable.
She was smart enough to notice that her father never bring any fish home and how miserable her mother was every time Ennis went to "fish" with Jack.
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When she was younger, she knew something. Kids sometimes know! When she was just a little kid, she saw her father go off on these trips, and right before he went on one of his trips was the only time she ever saw him happy. Then when she 11 she saw Jack and how he hugged and touched her father. She began putting the pieces of the puzzle together. Also, after her mother married Monroe, she probably heard them talking about her father sometimes. Alma told Monroe for sure. Therefore Junior and her sister, like all kids, would overhear conversations sometimes. By the time she was a teenager, she knew 100% that her father was in a relationship with a man. She tells Cassie off because she knows her father has been living a lie all these years. She sees how unhappy he is with a woman, and she basically tells Cassie "don't waste your time", when she says "he's not the marrying kind".
She knew why her father wasn't "the marrying kind"...it's because he could never be in love with a woman, and hence any marriage he would have would be a lie and wouldn't work out. Junior knew Jack was the REAL person her father was married to. Of course, it couldn't be an official marriage, but she knew the relationship he had with Jack was that of lovers, not just fishing buddies, friends. She knew they weren't just two guys who go fishing together, there was something far more to their relationship. At the end, when she tells Ennis that she is getting married, she has a look on her face when he asks her "does he love you?" She looked like she was thinking "Yes, he loves me, like Jack loves you, daddy." I believe Alma Jr. got closer to her father over the years. She was a lot like him, they were both shy, introverted people, and she could relate to him much more than she could to her mother.
She understood that he had a private life that was off limits, like children do. But then when she grew into an adult, and Ennis became more accepting of himself, I am sure they talked to each other about Jack. All his life, Ennis shared how he felt about Jack with no one, because he thought they would be ashamed of him if he did, but that all changed when he met Jack's mother. She was the first person who knew approved of his relationship with Jack, and that made him realize many things he should have years ago. He stopped being so ashamed of who he was and his relationship with Jack. By the time Junior was grown-up, he could be much more open with her about the truth. She understood, and became the second person in his life to approve. Ennis learned that there are people out there who are not homophobic and who don't look at his relationship with Jack as wrong, Jack's mother and his daughter Alma Jr were like teachers for him.