Topic: "Maybe he’s not the marrying kind" - Alma Jr - Did she know?

[keren_b]

At one point on one of the camping trips Ennis tellls Jack he thinks people in Riverton look a him oddly "suspicious... like they know" when he goes out.

I think it was just Ennis being paranoid... because he was so terrified of people finding out.

[tpe]

At one point on one of the camping trips Ennis tellls Jack he thinks people in Riverton look a him oddly "suspicious... like they know" when he goes out. If he is the focus of local gossip no doubt the girls would pick this up in school or in church - oblique comments about how right Alma was to leave Ennis and marry Munro, what a good substitute father he made, etc. It's a small town in a conservative area - Ennis would almost certainly attract gossip.

Yes, I agree.  Ennis's comments are not pure paranoia.  There must have been some truth to his observations.  Alma could certainly not have kept silent in the face of her second husband's questioning in the Thanksgiving scene.  From there, it is not hard to imagine that something must have been spread abroad about Ennis...

[*Froggy*]

At one point on one of the camping trips Ennis tellls Jack he thinks people in Riverton look a him oddly "suspicious... like they know" when he goes out. If he is the focus of local gossip no doubt the girls would pick this up in school or in church - oblique comments about how right Alma was to leave Ennis and marry Munro, what a good substitute father he made, etc. It's a small town in a conservative area - Ennis would almost certainly attract gossip.

Good point...

[dalemidex]

I am very torn over what Alma Jr knows.  I want her to know, and while I have (so far) held off on reading fan fiction, I have my own mental scenarios about what happens to Ennis after the film ends.  Alma Jr telling her father "I understand about Jack and it's okay, Daddy" is an intoxicatingly appealing fantasy.

Why I think Alma Jr knows:

(1)  The face of the girls in the truck when Jack comes up post-divorce.  The face of the older Jr is all inquisitive and skeptical trying to figure it all out.  The face of younger Jenny is a giggly "guess what I saw you two doing!".

(2)  The kids had to know that Jack was the fishing buddy all those years when the finally met them.  Ennis' mood almost certainly changed a great deal after Jack left and Ennis so clearly knew he could not satisfy Jack.

(3)  Kids often pick up on things that adults don't, or don't want to. 


But there are nagging items that make me think this is all wishful thinking on my part:


(1)  Jr's effort to stay with Ennis is all about keeping Cassie at bay.  At least that's how I see it.  I don't think she *really* hates it at home so much.  I think she's trying to come between Cassie and Ennis.  If she's living with Ennis, Cassie can't stay over.   This would explain Junior's actions without it being "my daddy belongs with Jack".

(2)   Sometimes people closest to a situation are the last to see it.  Yes, little kids pick up on things, but when it is your own dad, at a certain point you become the person most likely to have be blind to the truth.  Too much already "decided" about who your father is. 


I just dunno.  I want to think that Junior understood.  Anyone able to remove my doubts?

[cremetorte]

(1)  Jr's effort to stay with Ennis is all about keeping Cassie at bay.  At least that's how I see it.  I don't think she *really* hates it at home so much.  I think she's trying to come between Cassie and Ennis.  If she's living with Ennis, Cassie can't stay over.   This would explain Junior's actions without it being "my daddy belongs with Jack".

(2)   Sometimes people closest to a situation are the last to see it.  Yes, little kids pick up on things, but when it is your own dad, at a certain point you become the person most likely to have be blind to the truth.  Too much already "decided" about who your father is. 


I just dunno.  I want to think that Junior understood.  Anyone able to remove my doubts?

well, i gotta say sth. about your first doubt... i don't think she only wanted to stay with ennis to keep cassie away.. that could be a good point, too, but i'd say that's not the major factor... in my opinion, she really couldn't stand the "happy family" with alma and monroe, anymore. i'd totally understand that. she doesn't want to be in a family that doesn't feel like "hers", but just stay with ennis whom she always had a special bond to. (remember how he picked her up just before the first fishing trip? i think that was adorable... even though he gave her to alma right after)

about the second doubt. well, i guess i can't say anything to that because that's also something i had been thinking about. she is so close to her dad that she just doesn't want to see him hurt and doesn't want to see anything "bad" in him - and remember that even today a lot of people think that being gay eqals being a bad person... i guess you do have a point there...

hm, more to think about.

[NoReins]

I am very torn over what Alma Jr knows.  I want her to know, and while I have (so far) held off on reading fan fiction, I have my own mental scenarios about what happens to Ennis after the film ends.  Alma Jr telling her father "I understand about Jack and it's okay, Daddy" is an intoxicatingly appealing fantasy.

Why I think Alma Jr knows:

(1)  The face of the girls in the truck when Jack comes up post-divorce.  The face of the older Jr is all inquisitive and skeptical trying to figure it all out.  The face of younger Jenny is a giggly "guess what I saw you two doing!".

(2)  The kids had to know that Jack was the fishing buddy all those years when the finally met them.  Ennis' mood almost certainly changed a great deal after Jack left and Ennis so clearly knew he could not satisfy Jack.

(3)  Kids often pick up on things that adults don't, or don't want to. 


But there are nagging items that make me think this is all wishful thinking on my part:


(1)  Jr's effort to stay with Ennis is all about keeping Cassie at bay.  At least that's how I see it.  I don't think she *really* hates it at home so much.  I think she's trying to come between Cassie and Ennis.  If she's living with Ennis, Cassie can't stay over.   This would explain Junior's actions without it being "my daddy belongs with Jack".

(2)   Sometimes people closest to a situation are the last to see it.  Yes, little kids pick up on things, but when it is your own dad, at a certain point you become the person most likely to have be blind to the truth.  Too much already "decided" about who your father is. 


I just dunno.  I want to think that Junior understood.  Anyone able to remove my doubts?

All very good points, dalemidex, especially about Jr only wanting to live with Ennis to keep Cassie at bay. I think it's obvious that she was a daddy's girl and maybe she just didn't want anyone to come between her and her dad.

I don't think it's possible to remove the doubts on this one - I guess it's all up to what you want to believe, just like so many other "unanswered questions" in this amazing story/movie.

[jesseanne21]

At one point on one of the camping trips Ennis tellls Jack he thinks people in Riverton look a him oddly "suspicious... like they know" when he goes out. If he is the focus of local gossip no doubt the girls would pick this up in school or in church - oblique comments about how right Alma was to leave Ennis and marry Munro, what a good substitute father he made, etc. It's a small town in a conservative area - Ennis would almost certainly attract gossip.

Ennis' STAYING single would also attract attention.  And, Alma Jr. lives with her mother and Monroe...I'll bet Alma Sr. told Monroe some things about her marriage to Ennis and Jr. may have overheard.

But, Jr. is LOYAL to her dad, no matter what.

[tpe]

At one point on one of the camping trips Ennis tellls Jack he thinks people in Riverton look a him oddly "suspicious... like they know" when he goes out. If he is the focus of local gossip no doubt the girls would pick this up in school or in church - oblique comments about how right Alma was to leave Ennis and marry Munro, what a good substitute father he made, etc. It's a small town in a conservative area - Ennis would almost certainly attract gossip.

Ennis' STAYING single would also attract attention.  And, Alma Jr. lives with her mother and Monroe...I'll bet Alma Sr. told Monroe some things about her marriage to Ennis and Jr. may have overheard.

But, Jr. is LOYAL to her dad, no matter what.

I do think Monroe probably knew.  And the gut feel of a lot of us here (from the old threads) is that Jr. must have known.

Jr. loves her dad.  She knows that there is a part of him that cannot be touched.  In that part, you will see Jack Twist.

[cremetorte]

Jr. loves her dad.  She knows that there is a part of him that cannot be touched.  In that part, you will see Jack Twist.

i love how you always find the right words, tpe. thanks for expressing my exact feelings on their relationship.

[dalemidex]

Jr. loves her dad.  She knows that there is a part of him that cannot be touched.  In that part, you will see Jack Twist.

i love how you always find the right words, tpe. thanks for expressing my exact feelings on their relationship.

Ditto...that's an absolutely beautfiul way you've put it.  As always.... 

[welshwitch]

Jr is also like Jack, open to love, ready to look for it wherever, able to admit to her feelings, unlike Ennis and apparently unlike her mother too. So is she the Jack part of Ennis, the part he spends half his life trying to repress and deny?

[Patriot1]

There are two other threads about Alma Jr and did she know. Here are the links:

http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=2991.0

and

http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=638.0

enjoy.

[aintfoolin]

Remember in the Thanksgiving scene Alma Sr. says that she and the girls worry about Ennis being alone so much, which leads me to believe that they dicussed their father at times, Alma Jr. shows unconditional for her father and just wants him to be happy. I don't think she knew for sure about her father and Jack but I feel she definitly suspected them.She was old enogh at the time when Jack came to Ennis after the divorce to remember meeting Jack inthe truck. They also spoke to Jack . All of this does'nt really tell us if she knew  for sure but she only saw Cassie once but as many years as Ennis went "fishing" , she had to equate the " fishing buddy"  with Jack.

[tpe]

Remember in the Thanksgiving scene Alma Sr. says that she and the girls worry about Ennis being alone so much, which leads me to believe that they dicussed their father at times, Alma Jr. shows unconditional for her father and just wants him to be happy. I don't think she knew for sure about her father and Jack but I feel she definitly suspected them.She was old enogh at the time when Jack came to Ennis after the divorce to remember meeting Jack inthe truck. They also spoke to Jack . All of this does'nt really tell us if she knew  for sure but she only saw Cassie once but as many years as Ennis went "fishing" , she had to equate the " fishing buddy"  with Jack.

I feel the same way.  But even if she knew, Alma Jr. respected the inviolate space of her father's love.  She reached out to him, but never intruded.

[welshwitch]

I kind of like the idea that as she's in love herself, she feels sympathy for her father too - she needn't know he loves Jack but may well sense that there are  some sort of deep emtions involved.

[jeffjoe]

Hi! this is only my opinion but i believe she know from much years ago and she was the only who really accept his father... i love this young girl

[Patriot1]

Hi! this is only my opinion but i believe she know from much years ago and she was the only who really accept his father... i love this young girl

I agree with you JeffJoe. For 20 years Alma Jr. saw her daddy all excited to be going fishing with Jack and she saw him come home all perky. The rest of the time he was stoical and hum drum. And I am sure she knew it was Jack because she probably heard Ennis telling Alma something like, now don't forget Jack and I are going fishing next week. She knew, but like TPE said, she never invaded his private space.

[welshwitch]

The ss also says that part of Alma's resentment of Ennis was that he never went off anywhere with her or the girld, so the two girls growing up must have realised that Jack was something special, as he's the only one for whom Ennis gives up work for a while.

[TexRob]

There is a strange parallel between Alma, Jr., and her father.  She's 19 at the end of the movie, and in circumstances much like Ennis's when he was 19 at the beginning.  Her personality is very much like his, and she even looks like him.  I actually even wondered if she was a lesbian, destined to make the same mistake as Ennis by getting married before she knew what she was.

But regardless of that, I think she knew her father because she resembled him so much, not because she had really figured anything out specifically about him.  I think she knew he wasn't the marrying kind intuitively, without really knowing at the time she said it exactly why he wasn't.

[BBBOY]

There is a strange parallel between Alma, Jr., and her father.  She's 19 at the end of the movie, and in circumstances much like Ennis's when he was 19 at the beginning.  Her personality is very much like his, and she even looks like him.  I actually even wondered if she was a lesbian, destined to make the same mistake as Ennis by getting married before she knew what she was.

But regardless of that, I think she knew her father because she resembled him so much, not because she had really figured anything out specifically about him.  I think she knew he wasn't the marrying kind intuitively, without really knowing at the time she said it exactly why he wasn't.

Interesting idea TexRob. I'm going to have to think on this.

[welshwitch]

What a scary idea. The only argument I can come up with against it is that I don't think Ennis would have been so openly happy before he married Alma, and wouldn't have been so ready to use the word " love".

[TexRob]

What a scary idea. The only argument I can come up with against it is that I don't think Ennis would have been so openly happy before he married Alma, and wouldn't have been so ready to use the word " love".

One interesting question is just how happy Alma, Jr., actually is.  I didn't interpret the statement, "Yes, Daddy, he loves me" to necessarily reflect a positive affirmation -- it could have been no more than a mechanical response to a stock question.  And her smile was all too brief, more at her father's reaction than anything else. 

My feeling was that Alma, Jr., was very introverted, much like her father, and possibly owing to the similarities between their experiences growing up.  My niece disagrees with my interpretation.  But like almost all of the scenes,  Ang Lee allows just enough wiggle room for us to look at it more than one way.

[keren_b]

One interesting question is just how happy Alma, Jr., actually is.  I didn't interpret the statement, "Yes, Daddy, he loves me" to necessarily reflect a positive affirmation -- it could have been no more than a mechanical response to a stock question.  And her smile was all too brief, more at her father's reaction than anything else. 

I for one felt she was happy... I thought she looked in love, her voice was tender, and that smile and shine in her eyes when she said "yeah daddy he loves me", seemed to me she had deep feelings for Kurt. I guess it's all a matter of interpretation, we see what we believe in.

[welshwitch]

She comes all the way out to Ennis's trailer-park to find him and ask him to come to her wedding, and looks delighted when he says yes. Except when she's in doubt about his response, she looks as if she genuinely feels happy. But perhaps we're being influenced by the fanfic or our own wishful thinking. 

[Asali]

At one point on one of the camping trips Ennis tellls Jack he thinks people in Riverton look a him oddly "suspicious... like they know" when he goes out. If he is the focus of local gossip no doubt the girls would pick this up in school or in church - oblique comments about how right Alma was to leave Ennis and marry Munro, what a good substitute father he made, etc. It's a small town in a conservative area - Ennis would almost certainly attract gossip.

Ennis' STAYING single would also attract attention.  And, Alma Jr. lives with her mother and Monroe...I'll bet Alma Sr. told Monroe some things about her marriage to Ennis and Jr. may have overheard.

But, Jr. is LOYAL to her dad, no matter what.

I do think Monroe probably knew.  And the gut feel of a lot of us here (from the old threads) is that Jr. must have known.

Jr. loves her dad.  She knows that there is a part of him that cannot be touched.  In that part, you will see Jack Twist.

I would say Monroe knew for sure . Possibly Jr. may have known but it is hard to say for sure she seems like she kept a lot of feelings to herself. As you say about a part of Jack that cannot be touched, even if she did know then this is the part that she would have found too difficult to talk to her dad about.

[MississaugaRed]

She comes all the way out to Ennis's trailer-park to find him and ask him to come to her wedding, and looks delighted when he says yes. Except when she's in doubt about his response, she looks as if she genuinely feels happy. But perhaps we're being influenced by the fanfic or our own wishful thinking. 

I think you're right, ww, about Jr. being genuinely happy.  And I don't think we're imaging the tenderness in her eyes after her dad asks if that fella loves her.  She appears very moved that her so stoic father would ask this of her.  It's a very sweet moment between them.  Open to interpretaton, of course, as are all things, but I see it that way, too (did before any fanfic influence, also, btw. )

[Matt Nasty]

i think it very plausible she knew. i also think she may even have supported it

[manhattangirl]

Even in ss Ennis had some kind of relationship with his daughter, when the ranch he was working on was being sold, he knew he could go to his daughter.  I don't think that it was secret about him and Jack, I think it was more of "don't ask, don't tell". 

In intimate family relationships, secrets aren't much of a secret, something known but not discuss.  When Alma, Jr. made the comment, "Maybe he's not the marrying kind", whether or not she knew, she knew something about her father.   I don't think it was jealousy, but an protectiveness towards him.  Kids aren't dumb as we think.   And why would she make a comment like that, how would  someone so young know what type of man her father is, unless something deeply sensed, she could have easily said "he's still hung up on mom", if she wanted to be really bratty. 

Anyways that my 2cents.

[lancecowboy]

Wow, I can't believe that I am still discovering great topics from long ago in this forum. It's amazing.

Hi! this is only my opinion but i believe she know from much years ago and she was the only who really accept his father... i love this young girl

I've never thought of it this way, jeffjoe, and I think you are right. Of all the women in Ennis' life, she is the only one who stuck with him even to the end. She must have known from the time she told Cassie that he's not the marrying kind, or at least suspected. And she didn't care, she offered to move in with him. She truly loved and accepted him. I knew there is something special with Alma Jr. I just didn't know what it was until you put it into words. Her acceptance is another unspoken word that Ennis never heard, and so kept his own secret. I think the moment when Ennis asked her if Kurt loved her, was also a moment when this secret was momentarily hinted at, and with tears in her eyes, she knew and understood the regret in Ennis' voice, and said her response with love and compassion. You are right, jeffjoe, Alma Jr is lovely.

There is a strange parallel between Alma, Jr., and her father.  She's 19 at the end of the movie, and in circumstances much like Ennis's when he was 19 at the beginning.  Her personality is very much like his, and she even looks like him.  I actually even wondered if she was a lesbian, destined to make the same mistake as Ennis by getting married before she knew what she was.

But regardless of that, I think she knew her father because she resembled him so much, not because she had really figured anything out specifically about him.  I think she knew he wasn't the marrying kind intuitively, without really knowing at the time she said it exactly why he wasn't.

TexRob, sorry, but I cannot disagree with you more. I think like many girls who idolize and love their fathers, they seek out husbands who fit their image of him, not another him. And to Alma Jr., Ennis was a reticent rough and uneducated man with difficulty expressing emotions, in other words, a rough neck, like Kurt. I cannot see any reason why she would be considered a lesbian. If you see signs that I missed, I'd be happy to be convinced otherwise.

I think being nineteen is a universal threshold to love and romance. We have all been through that. I don't see any significant parallel between Alma Jr and Ennis.

I agree with you that she understands Ennis intuitively, but not because she resembles him, but because she loves him. With love, she empathize and understands. With love, she feels compassion and acceptance for him.

Even in ss Ennis had some kind of relationship with his daughter, when the ranch he was working on was being sold, he knew he could go to his daughter.  I don't think that it was secret about him and Jack, I think it was more of "don't ask, don't tell".

In intimate family relationships, secrets aren't much of a secret, something known but not discuss. When Alma, Jr. made the comment, "Maybe he's not the marrying kind", whether or not she knew, she knew something about her father.   I don't think it was jealousy, but an protectiveness towards him.  Kids aren't dumb as we think.   And why would she make a comment like that, how would a someone so young know what type of man her father is, she could have easily said "he still hung up on mom". 

Anyways that my 2cents.

Manhattangirl, you are always right on the money. Your 2 cents are worth my two dollars, any day.

[Matt Nasty]

i really guess we'll never know. i personally beleive jr knew and was supportive but its impossible to know for sure