Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: christie wood on May 04, 2006, 03:07 PM
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On my latest viewing, something struck me about what Ennis says to Lureen. After Lureen says how she thought Brokeback was a pretend place, Ennis says "no ma'am, we herded sheep up on Brokeback one summer". This is the point where, IMO, everything seems to click into place for Lureen - she now knows what Brokeback really meant to Jack. By telling Lureen that not only did Brokeback exist, it existed because of that summer, 20 years earlier, that Jack spent with Ennis.
Doesn't this mean then that this statement from Ennis was, in fact, a declaration, an acknowledgement about his relationship with Jack? He was actually, for the first time, openly expressing his love for him. The more I thought about this, the more it struck me that this was exactly what he was doing. I had always watched this scene from the point of view of Lureen finally getting what Brokeback meant, and what Ennis had really been to Jack. When all along, Ennis was there, tellling another person that Brokeback was their place, his and Jacks.
Am I alone in this thought? I really hope not, cos it kind of blew me away when I realised it.
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So glad you did this sweetie - let me collect my thoughts on it. I love that you brought it up!! :-*
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Thanks Christie. :)
I do believe Ennis unintentionally made this 'declaration'. At that point, he was too enraptured by the memory of that first summer to even care what Lureen would surmise.
Involuntary or not, the effect was the same. The reason why I think it is involuntary was that Ennis did not seem to realize the immediate effect his declaration had on Lureen.
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Thanks Christie. :)
I do believe Ennis unintentionally made this 'declaration'. At that point, he was too enraptured by the memory of that first summer to even care what Lureen would surmise.
Involuntary or not, the effect was the same. The reason why I think it is involuntary was that Ennis did not seem to realize the immediate effect his declaration had on Lureen.
Oh tpe, I'm glad you highlighted the "unintentional" bit about that declaration, because I now realise it was something I omitted from my original post. That is what I meant too, I don't think for a minute that Ennis had decided to out himself and Jack to Lureen, but because of his tortured state of mind, he probably had no idea what he was saying really.
But what I was trying to say was just the fact that he had actually said it, openly, for the very first time. I hope that makes sense. ???
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Oh tpe, I'm glad you highlighted the "unintentional" bit about that declaration, because I now realise it was something I omitted from my original post. That is what I meant too, I don't think for a minute that Ennis had decided to out himself and Jack to Lureen, but because of his tortured state of mind, he probably had no idea what he was saying really.
But what I was trying to say was just the fact that he had actually said it, openly, for the very first time. I hope that makes sense. ???
Hello Christie.
I agree with you in that he did say it openly -- matter-of-factly-- as if it were the most natural thing in the world. It is because it IS the most natural thing in the world for Ennis.
I love him the most when his love quietly and so openly comes out of that rugged, stoic exterior. This is one such scene. The tone of his voice is something enchanted. There was a wistfulness about how he said it. For an instant, you are transported back to that first summer -- because he himself was, I believe. And it seemed that Lureen was the furthest thing in his mind at that brief moment...
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Oh tpe, I'm glad you highlighted the "unintentional" bit about that declaration, because I now realise it was something I omitted from my original post. That is what I meant too, I don't think for a minute that Ennis had decided to out himself and Jack to Lureen, but because of his tortured state of mind, he probably had no idea what he was saying really.
But what I was trying to say was just the fact that he had actually said it, openly, for the very first time. I hope that makes sense. ???
Hello Christie.
I agree with you in that he did say it openly -- matter-of-factly-- as if it were the most natural thing in the world. It is because it IS the most natural thing in the world for Ennis.
I love him the most when his love quietly and so openly comes out of that rugged, stoic exterior. This is one such scene. The tone of his voice is something enchanted. There was a wistfulness about how he said it. For an instant, you are transported back to that first summer -- because he himself was, I believe. And it seemed that Lureen was the furthest thing in his mind at that brief moment...
now why can't I express myself like you, tpe? How you described Ennis in that scene was just beautiful. :'(
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Well that's right no one else knew they met on brokeback except aguirre because Ennis told Alma he me was a fishing body and lureen i think the same, but that frase meant more than what it says. that means they knew more than she though it was his perfect place and why a place in which you spent three months with a man would be important to him? why he wanted so bad to be there. it was his place and we have to guess how he address that and the face he say that to lureen. the way lureen acted told us that Jack told her that brokeback was his paradise and it really hit her know that he share that paradise with Ennis and she just made math and realized that brokeback was their love.
Brokeback was their love as the mountain eternal strong and constant that's why he wanted to be thre, and Ennis admited, without knowing, how he loved jack and for the frist time admited to the world where he and jack shared their love.
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Do any of you feel that at the moment Ennis said the words about being in BBM in 63, that he was -- right there and then -- happy again?
There is a note of happiness in his voice. It was as if Jack had not died...
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I think Lureen knew about Jack.She also knew Ennis by name,as she says on the phone."Jack used to mention you.You're the fishing/hunting buddy.I know that" She used the word Buddy at that stage in regards to Ennis,but as soon as Ennis mentions Brokeback and she knows it exists,then i think it hits her that Ennis was more then just a fishing buddy.I am sure Lureen knew of Jack's tendencies,but she didn't know he loved Ennis until that phone call most likely.Sorry,i'm detracting from what you originally said.I'm taking the long route to get there :)
As for Ennis 'outing himself'.I don't know.It was an innocent remark on the telephone.I agree with you and tpe that he was just talking but he wasn't thinking about what his words would mean to Lureen.It was the same with Alma and the "Texans don't drink coffee" sentence.He wasn't thinking straight,he was just thinking Jack.Same in the call box.He had just been dealt the biggest body blow of his life,so he told Lureen about Brokeback and confirmed it did in fact exist.
The thing i find most intriguing about that whole scene is Lureen and the ashes.When Lureen says "I'm sure they'd appreciate that.If his wishes was carried out.About the ashes i mean" What do you think the "I mean" signifies?I have my own thoughts,but i will shut up and see what else is said before i send you all to sleep ;D
Jennis.x
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Do any of you feel that at the moment Ennis said the words about being in BBM in 63, that he was -- right there and then -- happy again?
There is a note of happiness in his voice. It was as if Jack had not died...
I am sitting here watching that scene over and over and over and.... No, I can not detect any happiness in his voice or look. He makes a simple statement to my eyes and ears. But, that simple statement sure did mean something to Lureen. This is when she started to cry.
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The thing i find most intriguing about that whole scene is Lureen and the ashes.When Lureen says "I'm sure they'd appreciate that.If his wishes was carried out.About the ashes i mean" What do you think the "I mean" signifies?I have my own thoughts,but i will shut up and see what else is said before i send you all to sleep ;D
Jennis.x
In another thread, I mentioned that there is the interpreation given by some (and plausible, IMO) that 'HIS WISHES CARRIED OUT' is double-edged. Supposedly, it has a double meaning. The fact that Lureen qualifies it in the end by saying 'ABOUT THE ASHES I MEAN' signifies that there is most likely a second interpretation that she was sure Ennis would catch (it seemed that he didn't though).
The interpretation is that HIS WISHES signified Jack finally being with Ennis. Hence, Lureen was sarcastically implying that by getting half of Jack's ashes from Jack's parents, Jack was finally joing Ennis, even if only in death.
Although I agree that this is only one among many interpretations, I must admit that it has internal consistency, and it is most poetic. The bitterness of Lureen is made manifest by her slamming down the phone after she said this...
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Do any of you feel that at the moment Ennis said the words about being in BBM in 63, that he was -- right there and then -- happy again?
There is a note of happiness in his voice. It was as if Jack had not died...
I am sitting here watching that scene over and over and over and.... No, I can not detect any happiness in his voice or look. He makes a simple statement to my eyes and ears. But, that simple statement sure did mean something to Lureen. This is when she started to cry.
Interesting, because I have always felt that there was a wistfulness here that was tinged with happy memories.
He begins with 'Oh ma'am'... as if he cannot contain his mentioning all this. He could have said it flatly and monotonically. But that inflection at the very beginning -- to me, this is the mark of something that he felt some need to confide...
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The thing i find most intriguing about that whole scene is Lureen and the ashes.When Lureen says "I'm sure they'd appreciate that.If his wishes was carried out.About the ashes i mean" What do you think the "I mean" signifies?I have my own thoughts,but i will shut up and see what else is said before i send you all to sleep ;D
Jennis.x
In another thread, I mentioned that there is the interpreation given by some (and plausible, IMO) that 'HIS WISHES CARRIED OUT' is double-edged. Supposedly, it has a double meaning. The fact that Lureen qualifies it in the end by saying 'ABOUT THE ASHES I MEAN' signifies that there is most likely a second interpretation that she was sure Ennis would catch (it seemed that he didn't though).
The interpretation is that HIS WISHES signified Jack finally being with Ennis. Hence, Lureen was sarcastically implying that by getting half of Jack's ashes from Jack's parents, Jack was finally joing Ennis, even if only in death.
Although I agree that this is only one among many interpretations, I must admit that it has internal consistency, and it is most poetic. The bitterness of Lureen is made manifest by her slamming down the phone after she said this...
Yes,i did wonder if it was on a thread already.You explained it clearly and it makes sense.I do see and hear the double meaning.I also thought Lureen by that stage knew about Jack's dream of the little cow and calf operation?I don't think she knew Jack had asked Ennis years previously.Again it all comes clear to her through that one phone call,but i do wonder if Jack had asked her for a divorce as old man Twist had told Ennis about Randall,so maybe Jack made his plans clear to Lureen as well? I think she would of known about Randall in any case after Jack's death.
Jennis.x
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Yes,i did wonder if it was on a thread already.You explained it clearly and it makes sense.I do see and hear the double meaning.I also thought Lureen by that stage knew about Jack's dream of the little cow and calf operation?I don't think she knew Jack had asked Ennis years previously.Again it all comes clear to her through that one phone call,but i do wonder if Jack had asked her for a divorce as old man Twist had told Ennis about Randall,so maybe Jack made his plans clear to Lureen as well? I think she would of known about Randall in any case after Jack's death.
Jennis.x
Yes, I agree: I don't think she knew. But I think she had a sense there and then that Ennis was THE SPECIAL ONE. Hence, she implicitly realized what all those tiresome fishing trips signified.
As for the divorce, that remains a mystery. John Twist said that that was his intention, but we shall never really know if he started the discussion with Lureen.
There is, of course, the interpretation given by some to the passage in the short story where Ennis convinces himself that it was indeed the tire iron that did Jack in. This realization by Ennis comes immediately after John Twist tells him that Jack intended to divorce Lureen and move back. The implication to some is that Ennis thought that Lureen had Jack killed because of the impending divorce -- and probably because of the realization (volunteered by Jack?) that her husband was sexually active with other men. But this is not explicitly realized in the movie...
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Do any of you feel that at the moment Ennis said the words about being in BBM in 63, that he was -- right there and then -- happy again?
There is a note of happiness in his voice. It was as if Jack had not died...
I am sitting here watching that scene over and over and over and.... No, I can not detect any happiness in his voice or look. He makes a simple statement to my eyes and ears. But, that simple statement sure did mean something to Lureen. This is when she started to cry.
Interesting, because I have always felt that there was a wistfulness here that was tinged with happy memories.
He begins with 'Oh ma'am'... as if he cannot contain his mentioning all this. He could have said it flatly and monotonically. But that inflection at the very beginning -- to me, this is the mark of something that he felt some need to confide...
Not sure if you really think Ennis said "Oh ma'am" or if that was a typo. Because he didn't say "Oh ma'am." He said "No ma'am" in response to her saying, "But knowing Jack, it might be some pretend place where the bluebirds sing and there's a whiskey spring." When Ennis goes on to say he and Jack herded sheep there he does so in a simple plain voice.
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Not sure if you really think Ennis said "Oh ma'am" or if that was a typo. Because he didn't say "Oh ma'am." He said "No ma'am" in response to her saying, "But knowing Jack, it might be some pretend place where the bluebirds sing and there's a whiskey spring." When Ennis goes on to say he and Jack herded sheep there he does so in a simple plain voice.
It may be "No ma'am", Patriot1. I have not had the courage to see the dvd in full. And I have not checked the screenplay in a while. But it does not matter. It is the inflection in the voice that gives it away, to me at least. Also, it did not sound plain to me, especially in the first part. This becomes a matter of opinion.
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Yes, I agree: I don't think she knew. But I think she had a sense there and then that Ennis was THE SPECIAL ONE. Hence, she implicitly realized what all those tiresome fishing trips signified.
As for the divorce, that remains a mystery. John Twist said that that was his intention, but we shall never really know if he started the discussion with Lureen.
There is, of course, the interpretation given by some to the passage in the short story where Ennis convinces himself that it was indeed the tire iron that did Jack in. This realization by Ennis comes immediately after John Twist tells him that Jack intended to divorce Lureen and move back. The implication to some is that Ennis thought that Lureen had Jack killed because of the impending divorce -- and probably because of the realization (volunteered by Jack?) that her husband was sexually active with other men. But this is not explicitly realized in the movie...
That's interesting.Personally it would never enter my head that it was anything to do with Lureen.I think she knew about Jack,but as for having him murdered.No,i wouldn't think that at all.
J.x
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Not sure if you really think Ennis said "Oh ma'am" or if that was a typo. Because he didn't say "Oh ma'am." He said "No ma'am" in response to her saying, "But knowing Jack, it might be some pretend place where the bluebirds sing and there's a whiskey spring." When Ennis goes on to say he and Jack herded sheep there he does so in a simple plain voice.
It may be "No ma'am", Patriot1. I have not had the courage to see the dvd in full. And I have not checked the screenplay in a while. But it does not matter. It is the inflection in the voice that gives it away, to me at least. Also, it did not sound plain to me, especially in the first part. This becomes a matter of opinion.
Yes, any inflection in his voice would be a matter of opinion for sure. I see no happiness, pride or shame at all in his voice. I just hear Ennis explain what Brokeback Mountain was...a place where he and Jack herded sheep back in 1963. Why that explanation would make her cry I never understood. I always thought it was then that she realized she was talking to the guy Jack would go to see 2 times a year for the past 20 years and that he loved. And, that his love for Ennis predated her marriage to Jack.
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Not sure if you really think Ennis said "Oh ma'am" or if that was a typo. Because he didn't say "Oh ma'am." He said "No ma'am" in response to her saying, "But knowing Jack, it might be some pretend place where the bluebirds sing and there's a whiskey spring." When Ennis goes on to say he and Jack herded sheep there he does so in a simple plain voice.
It may be "No ma'am", Patriot1. I have not had the courage to see the dvd in full. And I have not checked the screenplay in a while. But it does not matter. It is the inflection in the voice that gives it away, to me at least. Also, it did not sound plain to me, especially in the first part. This becomes a matter of opinion.
Yes, any inflection in his voice would be a matter of opinion for sure. I see no happiness, pride or shame at all in his voice. I just hear Ennis explain what Brokeback Mountain was...a place where he and Jack herded sheep back in 1963. Why that explanation would make her cry I never understood. I always thought it was then that she realized she was talking to the guy Jack would go to see 2 times a year for the past 20 years and that he loved. And, that his love for Ennis predated her marriage to Jack.
I have asked for straight opinions. And you have given me that and much more. So who am I to quibble with you on this? :)
Thank you.
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Do any of you feel that at the moment Ennis said the words about being in BBM in 63, that he was -- right there and then -- happy again?
There is a note of happiness in his voice. It was as if Jack had not died...
I never saw him as being happy- then again I am crying during this scene so I don't notice too much. I took it more as a confirmation because he says it right after Lureen says "But knowing Jack, it might be some pretend place where the bluebirds sing and there's a whiskey spring." IMO he was comfirming that Brokeback was very real. It could possibly be Ennis even defending Jack because Lureen was being facetious and there may have been some element of guilt because he too was facetious when Jack suggested that Ennis move to Texas "It'll just rain down money from LD Newsome and whiskey will flow in the streams."
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I have asked for straight opinions. And you have given me that and much more. So who am I to quibble with you on this? :)
Thank you.
No, no, Thomas. I am not suggesting either you or I am quibbling here. This scene and the last time Ennis and Jack were together arguing were the two scenes I had the most questions about.
Lureen said three things that I didn't understand her reason for saying them.
1) When Ennis says that is why he was calling, to find out what happened. Lureen says, "Oh yah." What did she think he was calling about...the weather report? Why the "Oh yah."?
2) Lureen is talking to one of Jack's friends. Why did she feel it was necessary to tell him that Jack was only 39 years old?
3) And, why did she say, "...about the ashes I mean."? Did Jack have other wishes that Lureen was aware of?
During the argument between Jack and Ennis, I couldn't understand how or why Jack's statement, "I did once" could or would bring on such a threatening response from Ennis about Mexico. What, I asked myself did one have to do with the other? Just seemed like every time Jack brought up living together Ennis' reaction became more violent. In the beginning it was, "It could be like this, just like this, always." and "I told you it ain't goin' a be like that", to "Perhaps you should move to Texas" and Ennis gets mad, to the "I did once" in the parking lot and Ennis going off on a tangent about Mexico.
Anyway Thomas. I am not intending to quibble with you. I am really trying to understand those scenes.
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No, no, Thomas. I am not suggesting either you or I am quibbling here. This scene and the last time Ennis and Jack were together arguing were the two scenes I had the most questions about.
Lureen said three things that I didn't understand her reason for saying them.
1) When Ennis says that is why he was calling, to find out what happened. Lureen says, "Oh yah." What did she think he was calling about...the weather report? Why the "Oh yah."?
2) Lureen is talking to one of Jack's friends. Why did she feel it was necessary t tell him that Jack was only 39 years old?
3) And, why did she say, "...about the ashes I mean."? Did Jack have other wishes that Lureen was aware of?
During the argument between Jack and Ennis, I couldn't understand how or why Jack's statement, "I did once" could or would bring on such a threatening response from Ennis about Mexico. What, I asked myself did one have to do with the other? Just seemed like every time Jack brought up living together Ennis' reaction became more violent. In the beginning it was, "It could be like this, just like this, always." and "I told you it ain't goin' a be like that", to "Perhaps you should move to Texas" and Ennis gets mad, to the "I did once" in the parking lot and Ennis going off on a tangent about Mexico.
Anyway Thomas. I am not intending to quibble with you. I am really trying to understand those scenes.
Patriot1. What I meant was that I asked for an opinion, and I cannot decide right or wrong on things that are subjective. I certainly respect your opinions.
And I certainly did not mean the above to signal an end to the discussion. ;)
I have not carefully read your last post to do it justice, as I am on my way home :)
I shall be diligent in continuing where we left off tomorrow...
And I do thank you for engaging in a discussion!
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Thanks, christie, this is a fascinating topic. I have to admit--I looked to Lureen's reaction more than Ennis's delivery for my clues as to the "correct" (my) interpretation of this scene. For me, as people have mentioned above, it seems that this moment sparks the first genuine emotion that she brings to the conversation. If it's not so much of an "ah ha" moment for her, it may be that Ennis's revelation has just brought longstanding but buried suspicions about Jack's heart to the surface. But yes--I think that Ennis for the first time admits to someone other than himself what Jack means to him. It breaks my heart. :'(
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Thanks, christie, this is a fascinating topic. I have to admit--I looked to Lureen's reaction more than Ennis's delivery for my clues as to the "correct" (my) interpretation of this scene. For me, as people have mentioned above, it seems that this moment sparks the first genuine emotion that she brings to the conversation. If it's not so much of an "ah ha" moment for her, it may be that Ennis's revelation has just brought longstanding but buried suspicions about Jack's heart to the surface. But yes--I think that Ennis for the first time admits to someone other than himself what Jack means to him. It breaks my heart. :'(
Oh it breaks my heart too, Shieldmaid, every time.
Thanks to everyone who have brought light to this never-ending discussion so far. It's always interesting to read other people's opinions of a scene that we have all watched over and over again, and we still get new things from it. Amazing. As I said in my original post, this thought about Ennis admitting for the first time what Jack mean to him only occured to me during my last viewing - and I had watched it so many times before that, and tended to see it for Lureen's reaction, rather than Ennis's reaction to Lureen's interpretation of what she thought Brokeback was. I wasn't implying that Ennis outed himself to Lureen, but rather he openly acknowledged his love for Jack - be this sub-consciously, unintentionally or otherwise - but, to me, that is what he does.
And tpe, I have to agree with you about your thought that the mention of Brokeback brought back happy memories for Ennis - and the sound of his voice slightly changed when he told Lureen about Brokeback. He obviously wasn't jumping for joy, he was heartbroken and devastated after all, but just being able to openly say "we herded sheep.....", that "we" - me and Jack - is Ennis being able to talk about "his" Jack in the way that Jack had always wanted him to.
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Thanks also Christie for starting this thread. I find this wholse scene the most enigmatic in the whole movie because it seems to raise more questions when we try to provide answers.
Patriot1 raised most interesting questions in his last post. Some of these questions highlight this enigmatic quality that is so central to the understanding of jack's demise. I shall give my 2 cents worth as to these questions, and I hope others would join in in order to have a broader picture of this scene that we are now discussing.
1) When Ennis says that is why he was calling, to find out what happened. Lureen says, "Oh yah." What did she think he was calling about...the weather report? Why the "Oh yah."?
This is an interesting question to me. I had always thought that this was a verbal indication that Lureen had to intentionally shift mental gears regarding the circumstances surrounding Jack's death. She knew the 'truth' about Jack's death, and most probably the reason why he got killed. Her first reaction to Ennis's question about what happened was probably to tell things as is -- but she made an effort to bring her mind to dissemble the truth. She had a set response for those who inquired about Jack's death, and she always had to shift mental gears to replace the actual truth with a tidy story that hid the uncomfortable reality surrounding Jack's death.
2) Lureen is talking to one of Jack's friends. Why did she feel it was necessary to tell him that Jack was only 39 years old?
IMO, she was was used to reciting the whole tidy story about Jack's death like a eulogy -- especially those who did not know Jack that well. THis to me is another indication that she reverted to telling the tidy story about Jack's death BY ROTE. IT was her standard spiel!
3) And, why did she say, "...about the ashes I mean."? Did Jack have other wishes that Lureen was aware of?
As I mentioned to Jennis in one of the above posts, I am sympathetic to one interpretation that sees this statement as double-edged. Correct or not, I do find it plausible that the second intended meaning was for Jack to finally be with Ennis in death.
During the argument between Jack and Ennis, I couldn't understand how or why Jack's statement, "I did once" could or would bring on such a threatening response from Ennis about Mexico. What, I asked myself did one have to do with the other? Just seemed like every time Jack brought up living together Ennis' reaction became more violent. In the beginning it was, "It could be like this, just like this, always." and "I told you it ain't goin' a be like that", to "Perhaps you should move to Texas" and Ennis gets mad, to the "I did once" in the parking lot and Ennis going off on a tangent about Mexico.
To me, "I did once" was interpreted by Ennis as a recrimination or accusation by Jack that Ennis was completely responsible for the current unsatisfactory state because he long ago rejected Jack's proposal to have a shared life together. "I did once", to me, points back to that beautiful scene long ago that starts with Jack asking Ennis if he sees anything up there in heaven. The juxtaposition of the current state with their previous happiness was too much for Ennis. I think this was an attempt to give flesh to Proulx's reference in the short story to unsaid things that now were spoken out in the open. With this open recrimination from Jack, Ennis felt he had to respond in kind. Hence, the Mexico spiel...
These are indeed fascinating questions that revolve around the ambiguity of the entire scene surrounding Ennis admission: "We herded sheep up on Brokeback one summer". So much richness. This is just my own take. Do feel free to provide your own. In a sense, many of these points are not OOT, since they all illuminate the current topic, as well as one another...
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This scene and the last time Ennis and Jack were together arguing were the two scenes I had the most questions about.
Lureen said three things that I didn't understand her reason for saying them.
1) When Ennis says that is why he was calling, to find out what happened. Lureen says, "Oh yah." What did she think he was calling about...the weather report? Why the "Oh yah."?
2) Lureen is talking to one of Jack's friends. Why did she feel it was necessary to tell him that Jack was only 39 years old?
3) And, why did she say, "...about the ashes I mean."? Did Jack have other wishes that Lureen was aware of?
During the argument between Jack and Ennis, I couldn't understand how or why Jack's statement, "I did once" could or would bring on such a threatening response from Ennis about Mexico. What, I asked myself did one have to do with the other? Just seemed like every time Jack brought up living together Ennis' reaction became more violent. In the beginning it was, "It could be like this, just like this, always." and "I told you it ain't goin' a be like that", to "Perhaps you should move to Texas" and Ennis gets mad, to the "I did once" in the parking lot and Ennis going off on a tangent about Mexico.
Good points Patriot, they made me wonder too... here's my 2 cents:
1) regarding Lureen's "oh yah" - personally, I believe that Jack was murdered and the whole accident story was just a cover, probably because Lureen and her family didn't want people to know the real reason. When she gave the details to Ennis I felt like there was something technical and monotonic in her voice, like she was going through a paragraph she had memorized by heart... so I interpreted this "oh yah", said with a little sigh, as something like "oh yeah, time to go through the cover again..." just my take.
(EDIT: tpe, I only got to read your response after I posted mine, and now I see that we got the same impression from that line! ;))
2) why would she mention Jack was 39 - you're right, it doesn't make any sense, his friends should know how old he was. I think this is the point where the filmmakers wanted the audience to know how old Jack was, to give the viewers the time-frame, so they just had Lureen say that and maybe they didn't realize themselves that it wasn't making much sense.
3)"about the ashes, I mean" - again, it leaves me puzzled too. I'm not sure why Lureen sees a need to clarify this point to Ennis. as for other wishes, the only wish Jack had IMO was to be united with Ennis, I don't know if Lureen has realized that by this point but if she did, maybe that was the other wish she was implying to?...
Now, as for Ennis's reactions to Jack's statements. While I was reading what you wrote, it hit me that you actually gave the answer to this one yourself, and allow me to quote you: "Just seemed like every time Jack brought up living together Ennis' reaction became more violent". Ennis was a homophobe, he had internalized this homophobia since childhood. And he had that terrible, traumatic memory of Earl in the irrigation ditch. He knew what happens to two guys who're living together. He had also tried to believe that he wasn't queer, and he could never accept that part in himself that loved a man. for him it was "this thing" that grabs hold of him, he never called it love (at least not while Jack was still alive), he just couldn't handle that thought. Whenever Jack brings up the subject of living together, it touches Ennis in a very sensitive spot: first, if they were to live together, then it's much more than just "this thing". that would make them like Earl and Rich, and he knew they were queers. He can't handle that. second, it reminds him of his childhood trauma and what happens to guys who choose to live together, and this is his biggest fear. therefore, since this subject is so sensitive and loaded to him, whenever Jack brings it up Ennis feels uncomfortable and it brings out the violence in him.
When Jack says "I once had", it just brings it all up. the "better idea" that Jack once had was to live together, Ennis knows that. it brings up all the fears, all the internalized homophobia. Jack wanted to live with him because he loves him, because Jack is gay, but Ennis can't deal with this thought, because what does it say about him? It's a trigger and again, the violence comes out.
I hope I managed to explain myself...
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Thanks keren_b. Great post! And it is good to agree on something independently like this. It sort of reinforces our impressions. :)
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It's been really interesting for me to read all the posts in this thread. It's true that this scene is very enigmatic and it's very open to different interpretations. It's a long time since I saw the movie for the last time, and I still haven't got the DVD so I'm going to tell you my opinion based on what I remember (so I may be wrong) and also on some of the opinions I've already read here.
I believe that Lureeen realises what Ennis really meant to Jack when she explains that Jack wanted his ashes to be spread at Brokeback "but knowing Jack, it might be some pretend place where the bluebirds sing and there's a whiskey spring", in spite of saying that, she knew that this was a special place for him, but why?( it's obvious that Jack had talked to her about Brokeback because she knew about it, but she new nothing about it!!) and here comes Ennis, "the fishing buddy" she has heard of along this last 20 years, and says: "we herded sheep up in Brokeback one summer". At that moment Lureen realises the real nature of Jack and Ennis' "friendship". A place doesn't become special for you just because you herd sheep. It's then when she understands all the fishing trips and the long hours driving up to Wyoming.
I agree with tpe and keren_b in the fact that the story of the accident was just a cover. Jack was killed and Lureen and his family made up that story to explain his death. That's why Lureen's face becomes so livid when she finds out who really Ennis is, i.e., Jack's true love, the reason why his marriage is almost over (we are not sure up to which point Jack and Lureen talked about divorcing), and a confirmation of Jack's sexual tendencies which, IMO, had already been discovered and were the real cause of his death.
:-\ I hope you'll understand what I want to express, I'm sorry but it's difficult to express my thoughts in English...
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Just to add on.The moment Lureen slams that phone down,Ennis is shaken to the core.I think he realises what he has just said and that Lureen has pieced it all together.As regards the wishes.I still think it's ambiguous and this is what Annie intended.It obviously worked, as here we all are discussing every second of one amazing film.
Jennis.x
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:-\ I hope you'll understand what I want to express, I'm sorry but it's difficult to express my thoughts in English...
You said it beautifully. Thanks, filazahies.
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Just to add on.The moment Lureen slams that phone down,Ennis is shaken to the core.I think he realises what he has just said and that Lureen has pieced it all together.As regards the wishes.I still think it's ambiguous and this is what Annie intended.It obviously worked, as here we all are discussing every second of one amazing film.
Jennis.x
I agree. The power of both short story and film is that there is ambiguity that is beautifully worked into the sequence of events. This is probably the greatest strength of the storyline.
Thanks Jennis.
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I don't mean for this to be just a lovefest here, but as I read Patriot1's questions about the two scenes (the lake confrontation and the telephone scene) I immediately wondered if Thomas (tpe) or Keren_B had already replied. Not to take away from anyone else because there are other excellent contributors on this board, but the names Patriot1, tpe and keren_b are forefront in my mind when it comes to opinions I respect and admire. And whaddya know, right after Patriot's questions both Thomas and Keren replied.
What I was going to say in reply to the questions is very much like what both of you have already said. Just two points I'd like to expand upon:
"if his wishes was carried about...about the ashes, I mean"
I really think this is the final assurance that Jack's intentions were known by Lureen. Did she know specifically he wanted to divorce her and move to Wyoming with a guy? Not necessarily. But I think Lureen knew that Jack really wanted to be with a man and not with her.
"I did once."
In the movie we only see a few times (three?) when Jack suggests they make a life together: the "cow & calf operation scene", the "got your card about the divorce...I thought this meant that..." scene, and the "maybe you outta try someplace different, maybe Texas" scene. But over the course of 15+ years since cow & calf was first uttered, it's very likely that the topic came up more than three times. Maybe not enough to be classified as nagging, but enough that it was clear enough in the minds of Jack and Ennis that the comment "I did once" brought it all back. I do now think Ennis going into the "Mexico" spiel was realistic, where once I thought it was kind of disjointed. JACK brought up Mexico first, and it probably prompted it in Ennis mind. Minutes later when Jack pushed Ennis with "I did once", Ennis let out in anger what was in his head...what he was thinking when Jack mentioned Mexico.
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Just to add on.The moment Lureen slams that phone down,Ennis is shaken to the core.I think he realises what he has just said and that Lureen has pieced it all together.As regards the wishes.I still think it's ambiguous and this is what Annie intended.It obviously worked, as here we all are discussing every second of one amazing film.
Jennis.x
I agree. The power of both short story and film is that there is ambiguity that is beautifully worked into the sequence of events. This is probably the greatest strength of the storyline.
Thanks Jennis.
Absolutely.In some ways there is probably as much power in what we don't see as what we do.
Jennis.x
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"if his wishes was carried about...about the ashes, I mean"
I really think this is the final assurance that Jack's intentions were known by Lureen. Did she know specifically he wanted to divorce her and move to Wyoming with a guy? Not necessarily. But I think Lureen knew that Jack really wanted to be with a man and not with her.
dalemidex, at the end of the phone converstion, do you think that Ennis figured out that Lureen knew?
I felt that he did not. But I begin to wonder if he could have not noticed the ambiguity of Lureen's last line...
"I did once."
In the movie we only see a few times (three?) when Jack suggests they make a life together: the "cow & calf operation scene", the "got your card about the divorce...I thought this meant that..." scene, and the "maybe you outta try someplace different, maybe Texas" scene. But over the course of 15+ years since cow & calf was first uttered, it's very likely that the topic came up more than three times. Maybe not enough to be classified as nagging, but enough that it was clear enough in the minds of Jack and Ennis that the comment "I did once" brought it all back. I do now think Ennis going into the "Mexico" spiel was realistic, where once I thought it was kind of disjointed. JACK brought up Mexico first, and it probably prompted it in Ennis mind. Minutes later when Jack pushed Ennis with "I did once", Ennis let out in anger what was in his head...what he was thinking when Jack mentioned Mexico.
A bit OOT, but isn't it a bit funny that Ennis probably surmised the hidden meaning of the Mexico trips -- perhaps long ago when Jack started mentioning these to him in a veiled way? They were, in this sense, so attuned -- so on the ball with each other -- that things did not have to be spoken out in the open. In connection with the first comment, this is why I begin to think that Ennis must have surmised in the end that Lureen knew...
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Congrats on 3000 posts, tpe!
"if his wishes was carried about...about the ashes, I mean"
I really think this is the final assurance that Jack's intentions were known by Lureen. Did she know specifically he wanted to divorce her and move to Wyoming with a guy? Not necessarily. But I think Lureen knew that Jack really wanted to be with a man and not with her.
dalemidex, at the end of the phone conversation, do you think that Ennis figured out that Lureen knew?
I felt that he did not. But I begin to wonder if he could have not noticed the ambiguity of Lureen's last line...
I'd have to say no, Ennis did not realize that Lureen understood during the phone conversation:
(1) Unlike us, who get to see the scenes again and again and again, Ennis just got this one time and very likely did not do an instant spot-on analysis of what Lureen knew. If he really feared and expected that Lureen knew, he may have been listening closely to try and figure it out. But that wasn't the nature of his call.
(2) Ennis was just still in shock over Jack's death, and what ran through his mind was the vision of Jack and the tire iron. His mind was already overflowing to pick up on Lureen's nunaces.
I agree with others that Ennis, in a small but groundbreaking way, finally comes close to telling the truth (in understated words) about he and Jack. But this is an unintentional statement made in the unguarded honesty that shock sometimes brings. Not a deliberate declaration.
"I did once."
In the movie we only see a few times (three?) when Jack suggests they make a life together: the "cow & calf operation scene", the "got your card about the divorce...I thought this meant that..." scene, and the "maybe you oughtta try someplace different, maybe Texas" scene. But over the course of 15+ years since cow & calf was first uttered, it's very likely that the topic came up more than three times. Maybe not enough to be classified as nagging, but enough that it was clear enough in the minds of Jack and Ennis that the comment "I did once" brought it all back. I do now think Ennis going into the "Mexico" spiel was realistic, where once I thought it was kind of disjointed. JACK brought up Mexico first, and it probably prompted it in Ennis mind. Minutes later when Jack pushed Ennis with "I did once", Ennis let out in anger what was in his head...what he was thinking when Jack mentioned Mexico.
A bit OOT, but isn't it a bit funny that Ennis probably surmised the hidden meaning of the Mexico trips -- perhaps long ago when Jack started mentioning these to him in a veiled way? They were, in this sense, so attuned -- so on the ball with each other -- that things did not have to be spoken out in the open. In connection with the first comment, this is why I begin to think that Ennis must have surmised in the end that Lureen knew...
Hmmm. Maybe. But I'd sooner think that things between Ennis and Jack were known but unspoken. With Ennis and Lureen, they simply didn't know each other, and it's a bigger leap for me to see how Ennis would think Lureen knew. I don't think it was that Ennis was particularly astute at understanding the phenomenon of things known but unspoken. Rather I think these things came to be between Ennis and Jack because of their bond and longstanding relationship.
To me, on the phone with Lureen Ennis was too in shock and too obsessed (rightfully so) in the details of Jack's death.
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I agree with others that Ennis, in a small but groundbreaking way, finally comes close to telling the truth (in understated words) about he and Jack. But this is an unintentional statement made in the unguarded honesty that shock sometimes brings. Not a deliberate declaration.
It's been really interesting to read everyone's posts and it's great to know we are still desparately trying to find answers to BBM's neverending questions. However, Dalemidex says what I tried to convey in my original post. And you say it so much better than me Dalemidex! I know telling Lureen about him and Jack was the last thing on his mind right at that moment, but I do still think that for Ennis to say anything that inferred what he and Jack were to each other was a big thing, intentional or not. I believe Ennis would have looked back on that conversation, realised what his words had actually meant, and been glad that he'd finally acknowledged it, albeit in a very small way.
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3) And, why did she say, "...about the ashes I mean."? Did Jack have other wishes that Lureen was aware of?
I've always wondered if Lureen knew about Randall, and Jack's plan to move to Lightning Flat with him, and whether she knew that Jack's parents knew this ???
Just before Lureen's line about the ashes, Ennis says "we were good friends", and that's when Lureen's expression changes, she looks for a moment like she's going to break down (of course, she knows they were much more than friends), but then she composes herself,and gets this hard faced look on her and her voice, to quote the story, turns cold as snow when she says about the ashes. I remember when I watched the film the first time,not knowing what was going to happen, I got the feeling that Lureen was laying a trap for Ennis by encouraging him to go to see Jack's parents, and when Jack's dad told him about Randall, my first thought was that Jack's death was a consequence of his relationship with Randall,that Lureen told Jack's parents the real version of what happened, had known they would tell Ennis, and that was her revenge ???
It's probably nowhere near as complicated as that, but the feeling that Lureen has an ulterior motive for suggesting Ennis visits Jack's parents has stayed with me everytime I've watched the DVD.
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I've been reading through this thread trying to work out what I can say to add to the many excellent opinions - don't think I've got too much to add, but here's my 2p worth anyway (sorry - that's about 5 cents to those of you in the States!)
I'm convinced that Lureen doesn't know what Ennis meant to Jack when he first calls but as soon as he says the line about herding sheep on Brokeback, she suddenly puts two and two together. If I recall correctly, Anne Hathaway makes a little involuntary noise at that point and she swallows hard, like she's trying to stop herself from bursting into tears. I think she knew that Jack was gay, she obviously knew about Ennis being the "fishing buddy", and she knew about Brokeback and once she knows that Jack and Ennis met on Brokeback, it starts to become clear. The final straw is when Ennis says "we was good friends" - another little noise, another hard swallow and tears welling in her eyes as she realises not only that Jack loved the man on the other end of the phone (and that he loved Jack), but that they'd be in love since before Lureen even met Jack, making her entire marriage a sham, not just the latter part. This scene really is brilliantly acted by Anne Hathaway.
As to Christie's original question about whether Ennis "outs" himself - yes, but it's not concious. I'm not sure he hears half of what Lureen says to him - as soon as she tells him what happened he starts thinking about the tire iron and the rest of her tale is just words in the background of his worst nightmare. He only seems to come back to the present when she stops speaking - the "herded sheep on Brokeback" comment seems concious enough but the "we was good friends" was said like he was drugged, not thinking clearly at all, just one of those things you say when someone is giving you really awful news.
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I think Lureen knew about Jack.She also knew Ennis by name,as she says on the phone."Jack used to mention you.You're the fishing/hunting buddy.I know that" She used the word Buddy at that stage in regards to Ennis,but as soon as Ennis mentions Brokeback and she knows it exists,then i think it hits her that Ennis was more then just a fishing buddy.I am sure Lureen knew of Jack's tendencies,but she didn't know he loved Ennis until that phone call most likely.Sorry,i'm detracting from what you originally said.I'm taking the long route to get there :)
we also know from a previous scene that Lureen knows who Ennis is, as the fishing buddy.. When Jack goes looking for his blue parka, remember?
I don't think Ennis was gonna out himself, but mayby he felt that Jack needed to be..whats the word I am looking for... honoured mayby? Jack has surely told him alot about Lureen over the years, and about LD and I am sure Ennis knew thay didn't think too much of Jack, mayby he jsut wanted to show her that it wasn't all just fairytales and sillyness, or drunkeness, like thay may have thought. Remember that jacks dad also thinks that jack is just a fool with silly ideas and nothing real going for him.
But When reading the original post here I started thinking that mayby this is what he does, he outs himself and his love for Jack, and that is why Lureen figures it out, and I also think that Lureen is in some whay happy to know that her husband wasn't a fool and that he wsa capable of love, and that the man on the other end of that line loved her husband. how much did she really love him after all, she never even met his parents...
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3) And, why did she say, "...about the ashes I mean."? Did Jack have other wishes that Lureen was aware of?
As I mentioned to Jennis in one of the above posts, I am sympathetic to one interpretation that sees this statement as double-edged. Correct or not, I do find it plausible that the second intended meaning was for Jack to finally be with Ennis in death.
tpe your explanation for my other two questions sounds good and reasonable to me, so, I think I am going to go with them. However, for some reason, in the recesses of my mind, I can't help but feel there is something more.
As for the third question, as you know, I don't accept things unless there is some evidence to support the theory. If you accept things without any evidence at all, it is nothing more than fanfiction. Evidence can be in the form of words, facial expressions, body language, events either prior to or following the event in question and the event itself.
Now, you say that a plausible explanation for the remark "About the ashes, I mean." is that Jack wanted his ashes to go to Ennis so Jack could be with Ennis in death. I like that thought. It makes me fell all good and warm inside. However, is there any evidence, of the kind stated above, to support that theory?
Right now, I can't accept that theory and here is why.
Lureen said that Jack told her he wanted his ashes to be scattered on Brokeback Mountain, not to stay with Ennis in death. Lureen said that she thought Brokeback Mountain might have been a pretend place.
If Jack wanted his ashes to be scattered on Brokeback, why didn't he give her a map to Brokeback? Did Jack think Lureen was going to do the scattering herself? Doubt that very much. So, who was to do the scattering? Ennis Del Mar of course. BUT, if that was true, why didn't Jack leave Lureen Ennis' name, address and phone number so she could call or write if Jack died to tell Ennis that Jack had died and she was sending him Jack's ashes because Jack wanted him to scatter them over Brokeback?
If you believe Jack did tell Lureen Ennis' info then you have to believe Lureen simply refused her husband's wish. Now we have a little secret. Jack wanted one thing and Lureen refused. So why then tell Ennis this secret? Why tell Ennis what Jack wanted done with his ashes? Makes no sense, tpe.
But, we do know Jack had other wishes. What were they?
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I see your point Patriot1 but have you considered the possibility that Jack DID tell Lureen? If so, you say, why didn't she contact Ennis and why react like she did when he asked what'd happen?
Here is one possible idea.
Jack did tell Lureen that he wanted Ennis to scatter the ashes, and how to get in touch with him, but he only told here once in passing as I don't think he had time to tell her right BEFORE he dies. Lureen didn't want that, after all she thought Ennis was just a buddy, i can't see Jack telling Lureen why Ennis was special. When Ennis calls she still don't think he is special and she don't really see the importance of Brokeback. So she tells him the same that she tells all. Then when Ennis says "No mam, we was herdin' sheep up on Brokeback one summer, back in 63" she gets it. And rather than say it out loud, I mean who would, let's be honest, she tries to carry out Jacks wishes anyway.
Did that make sense at all?
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Just before Lureen's line about the ashes, Ennis says "we were good friends", and that's when Lureen's expression changes, she looks for a moment like she's going to break down (of course, she knows they were much more than friends), but then she composes herself,and gets this hard faced look on her and her voice, to quote the story, turns cold as snow when she says about the ashes. I remember when I watched the film the first time,not knowing what was going to happen, I got the feeling that Lureen was laying a trap for Ennis by encouraging him to go to see Jack's parents, and when Jack's dad told him about Randall, my first thought was that Jack's death was a consequence of his relationship with Randall,that Lureen told Jack's parents the real version of what happened, had known they would tell Ennis, and that was her revenge ???
It's probably nowhere near as complicated as that, but the feeling that Lureen has an ulterior motive for suggesting Ennis visits Jack's parents has stayed with me everytime I've watched the DVD.
I looked at it in a different way... the fact that Lureen had suggested to Ennis to get in touch with Jack's folks and carry out his last wish, strengthen my opinion that by this point she understood the connection between them, and what Ennis meant to her husband. I agree that she probably realized that when Ennis told her that they herded sheep on Brokeback back in 1963, and then she realized not only that Brokeback was a real place, but also that Ennis was the reason why this place was so special to Jack, why it was "his favorite place in the world" like he said.
Now, in my eyes, a person's last wish is something almost sacred, and carrying out your loved one's last wish is something extremely important and private. If Lureen and Jack were a regular couple, in love with each other, I think it would've been important for Lureen to carry out his last wish herself. She could've asked Ennis to tell her where Brokeback mountain was, and then go there to scatter the ashes herself. If it was me, and it was my beloved husband's wish, I wouldn't want anyone else to scatter his ashes instead of me, I'd feel this is something that I should do. But Lureen suggested Ennis to do it... why? Maybe she just didn't love Jack enough to bother herself with that. And maybe, maybe she felt it wasn't her place to do it. Maybe she knew that the person who ought to carry out Jack's last wish was Ennis, the man who was with him on Brokeback mountain, the only person that he really loved.
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Ennis was just still in shock over Jack's death, and what ran through his mind was the vision of Jack and the tire iron. His mind was already overflowing to pick up on Lureen's nunaces.
I agree with others that Ennis, in a small but groundbreaking way, finally comes close to telling the truth (in understated words) about he and Jack. But this is an unintentional statement made in the unguarded honesty that shock sometimes brings. Not a deliberate declaration.
I also totally agree with you on that one, dalemidex, I don't think Ennis was aware of the effect of his words on Lureen, and he definitely didn't out their relationship on purpose - in my eyes, that is. I think he was too caught up in his own thoughts and feelings and too shocked to be thinking about Lureen's reactions to him.
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If Jack wanted his ashes to be scattered on Brokeback, why didn't he give her a map to Brokeback? Did Jack think Lureen was going to do the scattering herself? Doubt that very much. So, who was to do the scattering? Ennis Del Mar of course. BUT, if that was true, why didn't Jack leave Lureen Ennis' name, address and phone number so she could call or write if Jack died to tell Ennis that Jack had died and she was sending him Jack's ashes because Jack wanted him to scatter them over Brokeback?
If you believe Jack did tell Lureen Ennis' info then you have to believe Lureen simply refused her husband's wish. Now we have a little secret. Jack wanted one thing and Lureen refused. So why then tell Ennis this secret? Why tell Ennis what Jack wanted done with his ashes? Makes no sense, tpe.
Patriot, that is a good point, but I think we have to consider that Jack didn't expect to die so soon. He probably thought he was going to live until old age, he didn't have a reason to make preparations for it at that point! He may have mentioned that he wanted his ashes to be scattered up there when he was talking about how much he loved this place, something like "this is my favorite place in the world, when I die I want my ashes to be scattered up there", but who would've thought at that time that Jack was going to get killed?? If Jack had a terminal illness, or if he had any other reason to feel his death is so close, he might have drawn her a map and make sure that she knew how to contact Ennis. He didn't do that (like she said, he kept all his friend's addresses in his head) because he had no reason to do that. He thought he had plenty of time until he died.
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If Jack wanted his ashes to be scattered on Brokeback, why didn't he give her a map to Brokeback? Did Jack think Lureen was going to do the scattering herself? Doubt that very much. So, who was to do the scattering? Ennis Del Mar of course. BUT, if that was true, why didn't Jack leave Lureen Ennis' name, address and phone number so she could call or write if Jack died to tell Ennis that Jack had died and she was sending him Jack's ashes because Jack wanted him to scatter them over Brokeback?
If you believe Jack did tell Lureen Ennis' info then you have to believe Lureen simply refused her husband's wish. Now we have a little secret. Jack wanted one thing and Lureen refused. So why then tell Ennis this secret? Why tell Ennis what Jack wanted done with his ashes? Makes no sense, tpe.
Patriot, that is a good point, but I think we have to consider that Jack didn't expect to die so soon. He probably thought he was going to live until old age, he didn't have a reason to make preparations for it at that point! He may have mentioned that he wanted his ashes to be scattered up there when he was talking about how much he loved this place, something like "this is my favorite place in the world, when I die I want my ashes to be scattered up there", but who would've thought at that time that Jack was going to get killed?? If Jack had a terminal illness, or if he had any other reason to feel his death is so close, he might have drawn her a map and make sure that she knew how to contact Ennis. He didn't do that (like she said, he kept all his friend's addresses in his head) because he had no reason to do that. He thought he had plenty of time until he died.
At least to me, the whole ashes thing makes logical sense if I view it this way:
(a) At a few times during the course of their marriage, the discussion of death and final arrangements came up. Might have been when a relative died. Might have been when her parents bought cemetery plots and suggested that Jack and Lureen buy the adjacent ones. Might have been hearing a story on the news about someone having their ashes scattered in an unusually noteworthy place. But it came up a time or two in all those years. If Lureen wanted to be buried together in a family plot it might even have been the source of conflict. Cremation was seen as somewhat weird and strange back then compared to today, especially in a rural, traditional place.
(b) Jack's talk of having ashes scattered on Brokeback was said innocently because (as Keren pointed out) he didn't plan on dying anytime soon. It wasn't said (or received by Lureen) as any sort of sacred, final request to be honored, but as an off-the-cuff comment. With "off the cuff" I don't mean to imply that Jack said it on a whim or without feeling or meaning, but rather that it was so far down the road. (At 39 myself, I'm not sure I've fully accepted the fact that someday I'll be dead.)
(c) When Jack did ultimately die splitting the ashes between Texas and Wyoming probably made some sense. Doesn't sound like Lureen or Bobby ever met the Twists, and with no more Jack it was even less likely. Lureen may have told the Twists about Brokeback Mountain, but if she did they did not reply or reply positively. Maybe it was only written in a letter. Maybe she talked on the phone to them and their only reaction was something like "don't know -- why would he want that".
(d) On the phone call when Lureen says that half his ashes was interred here, half was sent up to his folks, there's some disdain in her voice when she says the "he used to say he wanted his ashes scattered on Brokeback Mountain. Thought it might be around where he grew up". She's not being solemn and honoring of Jack's wishes. She's taking a jab at his head-in-the-clouds nature...always off dreaming or scheming instead of being normal, conventional, grounded.
(e) When Lureen understands (mid phone call) what Brokeback really was to Jack, her tone at first is hurt. Think of her face and voice as she says "Well, he said it was his favorite place. I THOUGHT it meant to get drunk. He drank a lot". This is all delivered with hurt and a little hint of angry lashing back in her voice. But then she shifts into what sounds more like "annoyed" than anything. In the "They'll be there till the day they die" and "Get in touch with his folks. I suppose they'd appreciate it if his wishes was carried -- about the ashes I mean" I think she sounds disdainful and annoyed at the whole thing, maybe even a little disgusted. Her voice is saying "the two old bats up there can have him and dump him in the outhouse for all I care". She's really saying "I suppose you might want to honor the wishes of your dead lover, but I don't give a damn what you do."
On the front side there's no solemn duty and respectful planning because Jack is never going to die.
On the back side there's no solemn duty and respectful action because Lureen's too full of anger and disdain to care.
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And maybe, maybe she felt it wasn't her place to do it. Maybe she knew that the person who ought to carry out Jack's last wish was Ennis, the man who was with him on Brokeback mountain, the only person that he really loved.
That's a nice idea but I don't think it's true. I think she genuinely thought that Brokeback was either imaginary or somewhere near where he grew up - hence the reason for sending half the ashes to his parents. If Brokeback was real and near Lightning Flat then I guess she assumed they would carry out his wishes. She presumably buried half his ashes in Texas (and put up a stone) so that Bobby could visit his father's grave.
If she'd known about Ennis - or rather, known what Ennis and Jack were to each other - before the phone call then she may have had time to come to terms with it and allow Ennis to scatter the ashes because that's what Jack would have wanted, but she only realises the significance of Brokeback and the fact that Jack was in love with Ennis seconds before she says the bit about his parents appreciating it if Jack's last wishes were carried out.
Hope the above isn't too much of a ramble - I'm not sure if I've explained my point too well...
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Very interesting thread.....
just a few thoughts
I do believe strongly that Ennis was making a declaration of intense feelings if not love when he tells Lureen the REAL reason for the importance of Brokeback to Jack. He may not have been "happy" when he said this but I think deep down he was almost being territorial as if to say..."Part of Jack was mine"..Obviously this may have been done subconsciously but nonetheless is was done..and I strongly agree that ONE can surmise this PRECISELY from the tone of his voice!
I doubt that Jack and Lureen would have many deep conversations about his wishes for burial etc..after all he was 39 and healthy and had no reason to think he was going to die young. I also seriously doubt he talked divorce with Lureen. He would not have divorced her unless he could have been with Ennis ..permanently..
my two cents...
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And maybe, maybe she felt it wasn't her place to do it. Maybe she knew that the person who ought to carry out Jack's last wish was Ennis, the man who was with him on Brokeback mountain, the only person that he really loved.
That's a nice idea but I don't think it's true. I think she genuinely thought that Brokeback was either imaginary or somewhere near where he grew up - hence the reason for sending half the ashes to his parents. If Brokeback was real and near Lightning Flat then I guess she assumed they would carry out his wishes. She presumably buried half his ashes in Texas (and put up a stone) so that Bobby could visit his father's grave.
I'm sure that's what she thought before the phone call from Ennis, I'm not saying otherwise. But after Ennis had told her about Brokeback, when she found out it was a real place, why didn't she think of honoring Jack's last wish herself? why would she send Ennis to do it? Either she didn't care one way or the other and didn't want to be bothered with that, or maybe she realized that Ennis is the person who should do it, not her.
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And maybe, maybe she felt it wasn't her place to do it. Maybe she knew that the person who ought to carry out Jack's last wish was Ennis, the man who was with him on Brokeback mountain, the only person that he really loved.
That's a nice idea but I don't think it's true. I think she genuinely thought that Brokeback was either imaginary or somewhere near where he grew up - hence the reason for sending half the ashes to his parents. If Brokeback was real and near Lightning Flat then I guess she assumed they would carry out his wishes. She presumably buried half his ashes in Texas (and put up a stone) so that Bobby could visit his father's grave.
I'm sure that's what she thought before the phone call from Ennis, I'm not saying otherwise. But after Ennis had told her about Brokeback, when she found out it was a real place, why didn't she think of honoring Jack's last wish herself? why would she send Ennis to do it? Either she didn't care one way or the other and didn't want to be bothered with that, or maybe she realized that Ennis is the person who should do it, not her.
Ah, right, okay. Sorry - I thought you meant before the phone call.
You could be right, then - although I think I'd still lean towards her lack of action being indifference. After all, whatever love was involved when she married Jack has long gone (Jack's line "as far as our marriage is concerned we could do it over the phone" confirms that) so, other than being the dutiful wife, why should she care about his last wishes? (that's a rhetorical question btw!)
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I see your point Patriot1 but have you considered the possibility that Jack DID tell Lureen? If so, you say, why didn't she contact Ennis and why react like she did when he asked what'd happen?
Here is one possible idea.
Jack did tell Lureen that he wanted Ennis to scatter the ashes, and how to get in touch with him, but he only told here once in passing as I don't think he had time to tell her right BEFORE he dies. Lureen didn't want that, after all she thought Ennis was just a buddy, i can't see Jack telling Lureen why Ennis was special. When Ennis calls she still don't think he is special and she don't really see the importance of Brokeback. So she tells him the same that she tells all. Then when Ennis says "No mam, we was herdin' sheep up on Brokeback one summer, back in 63" she gets it. And rather than say it out loud, I mean who would, let's be honest, she tries to carry out Jacks wishes anyway.
Did that make sense at all?
Esme, Good point. Jack mentions to Lureen in passing that he loves Brokeback and he wants his ashes scattered there when he dies. He tells her Ennis' contact information. I assume he would write it down for her as he is less than 39 years old and I am sure he didn't expect her to remember that information for years to come.
Jack dies. Like you say, Lureen didn't want Ennis to scatter Jack's ashes because they were just "buddys." Why then, didn't Lureen contact Ennis after Jack died and tell him that Jack wanted to be scattered over Brokeback and ask that Ennis take her and her son to Brokeback so she could do that?
Why would she say to Ennis on the phone, "Get in touch with his folks. I suppose they'd appreciate it if his wishes was carried out. About the ashes, I mean." and then, keep half of his ashes in Texas? Did she think Jack meant only a portion of his ashes should be scattered? What would make her keep half of them? I can't imagine she was particularly please with Jack at that point, knowing he was sleeping with other men. And why is it that only his parents would be pleased if his wishes were carried out? Wouldn't she be pleased also? CrimsonSky says later on down the thread that Lureen's voice changed when she told Ennis to get in touch with his parents, and I agree, it did. And, I also got the feeling she was setting Ennis up for something.
I think I am getting off track here. Very easy to do when you are discussing ashes along two separate and different tracks. The question here is, what did Lureen mean when she said, "About the ashes, I mean." What other wishes did Jack have that Ennis would now about?
This entire scene is loaded with questions.
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'' Jack dies. Like you say, Lureen didn't want Ennis to scatter Jack's ashes because they were just "buddys." Why then, didn't Lureen contact Ennis after Jack died and tell him that Jack wanted to be scattered over Brokeback and ask that Ennis take her and her son to Brokeback so she could do that?''
Patriot1,If you recall,Lureen said to Ennis on the telephone...
"I would have let you know,but i wasn't sure about your name or address.Jack kept his friends addresses in his head"
Jennis.x
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Now that I have responded to Esme's train of thought, let me say that there is no way Jack could have told Lureen about Ennis. As evidence I offer Lureen's own statement the she thought Brokeback might be some pretend place. If Jack had said he wanted to be scattered on Brokeback and told her to contact Ennis she would have known Brokeback was a real place. Why contact Ennis over a pretend place?
This is getting very complicated, I think, because of the ashes having two separate and distinct tracks to follow. I may just have to start at the beginning of the scene and write down everything said and implied.
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'' Jack dies. Like you say, Lureen didn't want Ennis to scatter Jack's ashes because they were just "buddys." Why then, didn't Lureen contact Ennis after Jack died and tell him that Jack wanted to be scattered over Brokeback and ask that Ennis take her and her son to Brokeback so she could do that?''
Patriot1,If you recall,Lureen said to Ennis on the telephone...
"I would have let you know,but i wasn't sure about your name or address.Jack kept his friends addresses in his head"
Jennis.x
Jennis, you have to follow the conversation sometime with me. I will answer a persons statements as if they were true in order to show them that what they have said in not necessarily true.
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'' Jack dies. Like you say, Lureen didn't want Ennis to scatter Jack's ashes because they were just "buddys." Why then, didn't Lureen contact Ennis after Jack died and tell him that Jack wanted to be scattered over Brokeback and ask that Ennis take her and her son to Brokeback so she could do that?''
Patriot1,If you recall,Lureen said to Ennis on the telephone...
"I would have let you know,but i wasn't sure about your name or address.Jack kept his friends addresses in his head"
Jennis.x
Jennis, you have to follow the conversation sometime with me. I will answer a persons statements as if they were true in order to show them that what they have said in not necessarily ture.
What's that supposed to mean?
J.x
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Patriot1,you said why didn't Lureen,contact Ennis,and i told you what she says in the film.i.e.She couldn't contact Ennis as she didn't know where he was from.If you think she did know and just didn't want to,or couldn't be bothered to tell him.That's a different story.Please don't insult my intelligence!
J.x
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The question here is, what did Lureen mean when she said, "About the ashes, I mean." What other wishes did Jack have that Ennis would know about?
Jack wished that Ennis would come live with him at the ranch. he told that to his parents - "Ennis Del Mar, I'm gonna bring him up here some day..." he told his father about him wanting to build a cabin at the ranch and live there with Ennis. That was his wish, although I don't think Lureen knew about it. Only Ennis never came to the Twists ranch while Jack was still alive. Jack had to die for that to happen. He went there and he found the shirts, and when he took the shirts to his place Jack was finally living with him, in a way... Ironically sad.
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Patriot1,you said why didn't Lureen,contact Ennis,and i told you what she says in the film.i.e.She couldn't contact Ennis as she didn't know where he was from.If you think she did know and just didn't want to,or couldn't be bothered to tell him.That's a different story.Please don't insult my intelligence!
J.x
Jennis, I am talking about my conversation with tpe and Esme. What are you talking about?
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This whole scene with Ennis and Lureen, when finally the two 'meet' really gets my tears a-flowing. There are alot of good points and thoughts posted on here. Patriot, I agree with you totally, thanks for writing that.
When Lureen says ".. Get in touch with his folks. I supposed they'd appreciate it if his wishes was carried out.. about the ashes I mean."
I think she is aware of Jack's other wishes. The ones Jack's folks woud not have appreciated. Like his 'tendencies'.
Oh, Lureen knew.
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Patriot1,you said why didn't Lureen,contact Ennis,and i told you what she says in the film.i.e.She couldn't contact Ennis as she didn't know where he was from.If you think she did know and just didn't want to,or couldn't be bothered to tell him.That's a different story.Please don't insult my intelligence!
J.x
Jennis, I am talking about my conversation with tpe and Esme. What are you talking about?
What you said to me earlier.That i should follow the conversation with you sometime?
J.x
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Patriot1,you said why didn't Lureen,contact Ennis,and i told you what she says in the film.i.e.She couldn't contact Ennis as she didn't know where he was from.If you think she did know and just didn't want to,or couldn't be bothered to tell him.That's a different story.Please don't insult my intelligence!
J.x
Jennis, I am talking about my conversation with tpe and Esme. What are you talking about?
What you said to me earlier.That i should follow the conversation with you sometime?
J.x
Actually I didn't say that. what I did say was,
Jennis, you have to follow the conversation sometime with me. I will answer a persons statements as if they were true in order to show them that what they have said in not necessarily true.
I was meaning my conversation with Esme at that time.
Esme said,
Jack did tell Lureen that he wanted Ennis to scatter the ashes, and how to get in touch with him, but he only told here once in passing as I don't think he had time to tell her right BEFORE he dies. Lureen didn't want that, after all she thought Ennis was just a buddy, i can't see Jack telling Lureen why Ennis was special.
All emphasis add by Patriot1
So, going along with Esme that Jack did tell Lureen Ennis' information, I asked the question,
Jack dies. Like you say, Lureen didn't want Ennis to scatter Jack's ashes because they were just "buddys." Why then, didn't Lureen contact Ennis after Jack died and tell him that Jack wanted to be scattered over Brokeback and ask that Ennis take her and her son to Brokeback so she could do that?
I was trying to get Esme to see that Jack never told Lureen anything about Ennis. By asking the question I was trying to get Esme to think about it and come to the same conclusion rather than me just telling Esme she was wrong.
Then, you chimed in with,
'' Jack dies. Like you say, Lureen didn't want Ennis to scatter Jack's ashes because they were just "buddys." Why then, didn't Lureen contact Ennis after Jack died and tell him that Jack wanted to be scattered over Brokeback and ask that Ennis take her and her son to Brokeback so she could do that?''
Patriot1,If you recall,Lureen said to Ennis on the telephone...
"I would have let you know,but i wasn't sure about your name or address.Jack kept his friends addresses in his head"
Jennis.x
I know Jack never told Lureen anything about Ennis and YOU knew that Laureen didn't know Ennis' info. So that is when I said to you,
Jennis, you have to follow the conversation sometime with me. I will answer a persons statements as if they were true in order to show them that what they have said is not necessarily true.
What I meant was that you have to follow the conversation between Esme and myself. I know, I worded it poorly. But then I went on to tell you that,
I will answer a persons statements as if they were true in order to show them that what they have said is not necessarily true.
At which point you took offense and here we are with me explaining what I meant.
Did I explain? Do you understand that I was not offending you? If not, and seeing this is all WAY off topic, I will continue to explain in a PM.
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Patriot1,you said why didn't Lureen,contact Ennis,and i told you what she says in the film.i.e.She couldn't contact Ennis as she didn't know where he was from.If you think she did know and just didn't want to,or couldn't be bothered to tell him.That's a different story.Please don't insult my intelligence!
J.x
Jennis, I am talking about my conversation with tpe and Esme. What are you talking about?
What you said to me earlier.That i should follow the conversation with you sometime?
J.x
Actually I didn't say that. what I did say was,
Jennis, you have to follow the conversation sometime with me. I will answer a persons statements as if they were true in order to show them that what they have said in not necessarily true.
I was meaning my conversation with Esme at that time.
Esme said,
Jack did tell Lureen that he wanted Ennis to scatter the ashes, and how to get in touch with him, but he only told here once in passing as I don't think he had time to tell her right BEFORE he dies. Lureen didn't want that, after all she thought Ennis was just a buddy, i can't see Jack telling Lureen why Ennis was special.
All emphasis add by Patriot1
So, going along with Esme that Jack did tell Lureen Ennis' information, I asked the question,
Jack dies. Like you say, Lureen didn't want Ennis to scatter Jack's ashes because they were just "buddys." Why then, didn't Lureen contact Ennis after Jack died and tell him that Jack wanted to be scattered over Brokeback and ask that Ennis take her and her son to Brokeback so she could do that?
I was trying to get Esme to see that Jack never told Lureen anything about Ennis. By asking the question I was trying to get Esme to think about it and come to the same conclusion rather than me just telling Esme she was wrong.
Then, you chimed in with,
'' Jack dies. Like you say, Lureen didn't want Ennis to scatter Jack's ashes because they were just "buddys." Why then, didn't Lureen contact Ennis after Jack died and tell him that Jack wanted to be scattered over Brokeback and ask that Ennis take her and her son to Brokeback so she could do that?''
Patriot1,If you recall,Lureen said to Ennis on the telephone...
"I would have let you know,but i wasn't sure about your name or address.Jack kept his friends addresses in his head"
Jennis.x
I know Jack never told Lureen anything about Ennis and YOU knew that Laureen didn't know Ennis' info. So that is when I said to you,
Jennis, you have to follow the conversation sometime with me. I will answer a persons statements as if they were true in order to show them that what they have said is not necessarily true.
What I meant was that you have to follow the conversation between Esme and myself. I know, I worded it poorly. But then I went on to tell you that,
I will answer a persons statements as if they were true in order to show them that what they have said is not necessarily true.
At which point you took offense and here we are with me explaining what I meant.
Did I explain? Do you understand that I was not offending you? If not, and seeing this is all WAY off topic, I will continue to explain in a PM.
Forget it.On here and personally.I'm not in the mood.Just go back to the thread and we will say no more about it.The thread has actually gone way off anyway.I am as guilty as the next person for talking about other scenes,but in fairness to Christie maybe it should get back to what she originally wanted an opinion on.Which is.Does Ennis confess his love/feelings for Jack.
Well,my gut instinct tells me if he did,then it was inadvertently.There are no clear cut answers.Only opinions.But i hope that all our views and observations have helped Christie in some small way?
Jennis.x
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I was trying to get Esme to see that Jack never told Lureen anything about Ennis. By asking the question I was trying to get Esme to think about it and come to the same conclusion rather than me just telling Esme she was wrong.
however much I enjoy both watching and beeing part of a good fight :) I think I wanna step in here and say that noone is right or wrong here. That is the beauty with a work of art, be it a painting, a piece of music or a film. The instant it leaves the creators ( in this case Angs) hands it is free to interpret which ever say you want... when I see this scene, and think avout It I interpret it that way, that mayby Lureen didn't tell all she knwe, and was a kiniving little bitch who didn't want Jacks wishes to be carried out so lied flat out to Ennis... I have a feeling women can do this ;)
I love how we can discuss things form different pov's and sometimes things are sayd that makes me believe differently than I did at firsts, here I do not :)
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Ennis may said it because they did work sheep together and maybe Lurren didn't know that..she may have hung up on him if she felt the person calling didnt have any connection to her husband. By stating this Ennis is letting her know that Jack and him were friends and worked together. She did seem a little wary of him when he called like she didn't know him which of course she didn't..He was making the connection between himself and how he knew Jack.
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There are no clear cut answers.Only opinions.But i hope that all our views and observations have helped Christie in some small way?
Jennis.x
Hi Jennis, thanks for saying this, because I felt the discussion was getting a little too intense and o/t. I can hardly complain though, as I am the world's worst for taking part in a discussion on a particular thread and going off on a tangent, and it is really easy to do when discussing such an intricate and multi-layed story such as BBM. This just goes to show how much there is in just one scene, and how we can all see different things in it. And that is the whole point of a discussion forum - to exchange opinions, views and observations and to hopefully gain new insight. After reading everyone's views on this thread, I still come to the conclusion that Ennis was unintentionally acknowledging what he and Jack meant to each other, and the significance of Brokeback Mountain to both of them. I don't think he knew or cared how his words would affect Lureen, as he was too caught up in his own devastation and heartbreak to notice.
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Thank all for your patience and understanding.
I have nothing to add but to say that I appreciate all opinions laid out in this most wonderful thread. Lively discourse is part of the beauty of it all, and I encourage all you wonderful people to continue showing the restraint and sensitivity that such beauty calls out within each and every one of us here. :)