Topic: "We herded sheep up on Brokeback one summer"

[tpe]

Just to add on.The moment Lureen slams that phone down,Ennis is shaken to the core.I think he realises what he has just said and that Lureen has pieced it all together.As regards the wishes.I still think it's ambiguous and this is what Annie intended.It obviously worked, as here we all are discussing every second of one amazing film.
Jennis.x

I agree.  The power of both short story and film is that there is ambiguity that is beautifully worked into the sequence of events.  This is probably the greatest strength of the storyline.

Thanks Jennis.

[dalemidex]

I don't mean for this to be just a lovefest here, but as I read Patriot1's questions about the two scenes (the lake confrontation and the telephone scene) I immediately wondered if Thomas (tpe) or Keren_B had already replied.  Not to take away from anyone else because there are other excellent contributors on this board, but the names Patriot1, tpe and keren_b are forefront in my mind when it comes to opinions I respect and admire.  And whaddya know, right after Patriot's questions both Thomas and Keren replied.

What I was going to say in reply to the questions is very much like what both of you have already said.  Just two points I'd like to expand upon:


"if his wishes was carried about...about the ashes, I mean"

I really think this is the final assurance that Jack's intentions were known by Lureen.  Did she know specifically he wanted to divorce her and move to Wyoming with a guy?  Not necessarily.  But I think Lureen knew that Jack really wanted to be with a man and not with her. 


"I did once."

In the movie we only see a few times (three?) when Jack suggests they make a life together:  the "cow & calf operation scene", the "got your card about the divorce...I thought this meant that..." scene, and the "maybe you outta try someplace different, maybe Texas" scene.  But over the course of 15+ years since cow & calf was first uttered, it's very likely that the topic came up more than three times.  Maybe not enough to be classified as nagging, but enough that it was clear enough in the minds of Jack and Ennis that the comment "I did once" brought it all back.  I do now think Ennis going into the "Mexico" spiel was realistic, where once I thought it was kind of disjointed.  JACK brought up Mexico first, and it probably prompted it in Ennis mind.  Minutes later when Jack pushed Ennis with "I did once", Ennis let out in anger what was in his head...what he was thinking when Jack mentioned Mexico.

[Jennis]

Just to add on.The moment Lureen slams that phone down,Ennis is shaken to the core.I think he realises what he has just said and that Lureen has pieced it all together.As regards the wishes.I still think it's ambiguous and this is what Annie intended.It obviously worked, as here we all are discussing every second of one amazing film.
Jennis.x

I agree.  The power of both short story and film is that there is ambiguity that is beautifully worked into the sequence of events.  This is probably the greatest strength of the storyline.

Thanks Jennis.

Absolutely.In some ways there is probably as much power in what we don't see as what we do.
Jennis.x

[tpe]

"if his wishes was carried about...about the ashes, I mean"

I really think this is the final assurance that Jack's intentions were known by Lureen.  Did she know specifically he wanted to divorce her and move to Wyoming with a guy?  Not necessarily.  But I think Lureen knew that Jack really wanted to be with a man and not with her. 

dalemidex, at the end of the phone converstion, do you think that Ennis figured out that Lureen knew?

I felt that he did not.  But I begin to wonder if he could have not noticed the ambiguity of Lureen's last line...
 

"I did once."

In the movie we only see a few times (three?) when Jack suggests they make a life together:  the "cow & calf operation scene", the "got your card about the divorce...I thought this meant that..." scene, and the "maybe you outta try someplace different, maybe Texas" scene.  But over the course of 15+ years since cow & calf was first uttered, it's very likely that the topic came up more than three times.  Maybe not enough to be classified as nagging, but enough that it was clear enough in the minds of Jack and Ennis that the comment "I did once" brought it all back.  I do now think Ennis going into the "Mexico" spiel was realistic, where once I thought it was kind of disjointed.  JACK brought up Mexico first, and it probably prompted it in Ennis mind.  Minutes later when Jack pushed Ennis with "I did once", Ennis let out in anger what was in his head...what he was thinking when Jack mentioned Mexico.

A bit OOT, but isn't it a bit funny that Ennis probably surmised the hidden meaning of the Mexico trips -- perhaps long ago when Jack started mentioning these to him in a veiled way?  They were, in this sense, so attuned -- so on the ball with each other -- that things did not have to be spoken out in the open.  In connection with the first comment, this is why I begin to think that Ennis must have surmised in the end that Lureen knew...

[dalemidex]

Congrats on 3000 posts, tpe!

"if his wishes was carried about...about the ashes, I mean"

I really think this is the final assurance that Jack's intentions were known by Lureen.  Did she know specifically he wanted to divorce her and move to Wyoming with a guy?  Not necessarily.  But I think Lureen knew that Jack really wanted to be with a man and not with her. 

dalemidex, at the end of the phone conversation, do you think that Ennis figured out that Lureen knew?

I felt that he did not.  But I begin to wonder if he could have not noticed the ambiguity of Lureen's last line...

I'd have to say no, Ennis did not realize that Lureen understood during the phone conversation:

(1)  Unlike us, who get to see the scenes again and again and again, Ennis just got this one time and very likely did not do an instant spot-on analysis of what Lureen knew.  If he really feared and expected that Lureen knew, he may have been listening closely to try and figure it out.  But that wasn't the nature of his call.

(2)  Ennis was just still in shock over Jack's death, and what ran through his mind was the vision of Jack and the tire iron.  His mind was already overflowing to pick up on Lureen's nunaces.

I agree with others that Ennis, in a small but groundbreaking way, finally comes close to telling the truth (in understated words) about he and Jack.  But this is an unintentional statement made in the unguarded honesty that shock sometimes brings.   Not a deliberate declaration.

"I did once."

In the movie we only see a few times (three?) when Jack suggests they make a life together:  the "cow & calf operation scene", the "got your card about the divorce...I thought this meant that..." scene, and the "maybe you oughtta try someplace different, maybe Texas" scene.  But over the course of 15+ years since cow & calf was first uttered, it's very likely that the topic came up more than three times.  Maybe not enough to be classified as nagging, but enough that it was clear enough in the minds of Jack and Ennis that the comment "I did once" brought it all back.  I do now think Ennis going into the "Mexico" spiel was realistic, where once I thought it was kind of disjointed.  JACK brought up Mexico first, and it probably prompted it in Ennis mind.  Minutes later when Jack pushed Ennis with "I did once", Ennis let out in anger what was in his head...what he was thinking when Jack mentioned Mexico.

A bit OOT, but isn't it a bit funny that Ennis probably surmised the hidden meaning of the Mexico trips -- perhaps long ago when Jack started mentioning these to him in a veiled way?  They were, in this sense, so attuned -- so on the ball with each other -- that things did not have to be spoken out in the open.  In connection with the first comment, this is why I begin to think that Ennis must have surmised in the end that Lureen knew...

Hmmm.  Maybe.  But I'd sooner think that things between Ennis and Jack were known but unspoken.  With Ennis and Lureen, they simply didn't know each other, and it's a bigger leap for me to see how Ennis would think Lureen knew.  I don't think it was that Ennis was particularly astute at understanding the phenomenon of things known but unspoken.  Rather I think these things came to be between Ennis and Jack because of their bond and longstanding relationship. 

To me, on the phone with Lureen Ennis was too in shock and too obsessed (rightfully so) in the details of Jack's death.

[christie wood]

I agree with others that Ennis, in a small but groundbreaking way, finally comes close to telling the truth (in understated words) about he and Jack.  But this is an unintentional statement made in the unguarded honesty that shock sometimes brings.   Not a deliberate declaration.

It's been really interesting to read everyone's posts and it's great to know we are still desparately trying to find answers to BBM's neverending questions. However, Dalemidex says what I tried to convey in my original post.  And you say it so much better than me Dalemidex!  I know telling Lureen about him and Jack was the last thing on his mind right at that moment, but I do still think that for Ennis to say anything that inferred what he and Jack were to each other was a big thing, intentional or not. I believe Ennis would have looked back on that conversation, realised what his words had actually meant, and been glad that he'd finally acknowledged it, albeit in a very small way.

[CrimsonSky]

3) And, why did she say, "...about the ashes I mean."?  Did Jack have other wishes that Lureen was aware of?

I've always wondered if Lureen knew about Randall, and Jack's plan to move to Lightning Flat with him, and whether she knew that Jack's parents knew this

Just before Lureen's line about the ashes, Ennis says "we were good friends", and that's when Lureen's expression changes, she looks for a moment like she's going to break down (of course, she knows they were much more than friends), but then she composes herself,and gets this hard faced look on her and her voice, to quote the story, turns cold as snow when she says about the ashes. I remember when I watched the film the first time,not knowing what was going to happen, I got the feeling that Lureen was laying a trap for Ennis by encouraging him to go to see Jack's parents, and when Jack's dad told him about Randall, my first thought was that Jack's death was a consequence of his relationship with Randall,that Lureen told Jack's parents the real version of what happened, had known they would tell Ennis, and that was her revenge 
It's probably nowhere near as complicated as that, but the feeling that Lureen has an ulterior motive for suggesting Ennis visits Jack's parents has stayed with me everytime I've watched the DVD.

[NoReins]

I've been reading through this thread trying to work out what I can say to add to the many excellent opinions - don't think I've got too much to add, but here's my 2p worth anyway (sorry - that's about 5 cents to those of you in the States!)

I'm convinced that Lureen doesn't know what Ennis meant to Jack when he first calls but as soon as he says the line about herding sheep on Brokeback, she suddenly puts two and two together. If I recall correctly, Anne Hathaway makes a little involuntary noise at that point and she swallows hard, like she's trying to stop herself from bursting into tears. I think she knew that Jack was gay, she obviously knew about Ennis being the "fishing buddy", and she knew about Brokeback and once she knows that Jack and Ennis met on Brokeback, it starts to become clear. The final straw is when Ennis says "we was good friends" - another little noise, another hard swallow and tears welling in her eyes as she realises not only that Jack loved the man on the other end of the phone (and that he loved Jack), but that they'd be in love since before Lureen even met Jack, making her entire marriage a sham, not just the latter part. This scene really is brilliantly acted by Anne Hathaway.

As to Christie's original question about whether Ennis "outs" himself - yes, but it's not concious. I'm not sure he hears half of what Lureen says to him - as soon as she tells him what happened he starts thinking about the tire iron and the rest of her tale is just words in the background of his worst nightmare. He only seems to come back to the present when she stops speaking - the "herded sheep on Brokeback" comment seems concious enough but the "we was good friends" was said like he was drugged, not thinking clearly at all, just one of those things you say when someone is giving you really awful news.

[Rønnaug]

I think Lureen knew about Jack.She also knew Ennis by name,as she says on the phone."Jack used to mention you.You're the fishing/hunting buddy.I know that" She used the word Buddy at that stage in regards to Ennis,but as soon as Ennis mentions Brokeback and she knows it exists,then i think it hits her that Ennis was more then just a fishing buddy.I am sure Lureen knew of Jack's tendencies,but she didn't know he loved Ennis until that phone call most likely.Sorry,i'm detracting from what you originally said.I'm taking the long route to get there

we also know from a previous scene that Lureen knows who Ennis is, as the fishing buddy.. When Jack goes looking for his blue parka, remember?

I don't think Ennis was gonna out himself, but mayby he felt that Jack needed to be..whats the word I am looking for... honoured mayby? Jack has surely told him alot about Lureen over the years, and about LD and I am sure Ennis knew thay didn't think too much of Jack, mayby he jsut wanted to show her that it wasn't all just fairytales and sillyness, or drunkeness, like thay may have thought. Remember that jacks dad also thinks that jack is just a fool with silly ideas and nothing real going for him.

But When reading the original post here I started thinking that mayby this is what he does, he outs himself and his love for Jack, and that is why Lureen figures it out, and I also think that Lureen is in some whay happy to know that her husband wasn't a fool and that he wsa capable of love, and that the man on the other end of that line loved her husband. how much did she really love him after all, she never even met his parents...

[Patriot1]

3) And, why did she say, "...about the ashes I mean."?  Did Jack have other wishes that Lureen was aware of?

As I mentioned to Jennis in one of the above posts, I am sympathetic to one interpretation that sees this statement as double-edged.  Correct or not, I do find it plausible that the second intended meaning was for Jack to finally be with Ennis in death.

tpe your explanation for my other two questions sounds good and reasonable to me, so, I think I am going to go with them.  However, for some reason, in the recesses of my mind, I can't help but feel there is something more. 

As for the third question, as you know, I don't accept things unless there is some evidence to support the theory.  If you accept things without any evidence at all, it is nothing more than fanfiction. Evidence can be in the form of words, facial expressions, body language, events either prior to or following the event in question and the event itself. 

Now, you say that a plausible explanation for the remark "About the ashes, I mean." is that Jack wanted his ashes to go to Ennis so Jack could be with Ennis in death.  I like that thought. It makes me fell all good and warm inside.  However, is there any evidence, of the kind stated above, to support that theory?

Right now, I can't accept that theory and here is why.

Lureen said that Jack told her he wanted his ashes to be scattered on Brokeback Mountain, not to stay with Ennis in death. Lureen said that she thought Brokeback Mountain might have been a pretend place.

If Jack wanted his ashes to be scattered on Brokeback, why didn't he give her a map to Brokeback?  Did Jack think Lureen was going to do the scattering herself?  Doubt that very much. So, who was to do the scattering?  Ennis Del Mar of course.  BUT, if that was true, why didn't Jack leave Lureen Ennis' name, address and phone number so she could call or write if Jack died to tell Ennis that Jack had died and she was sending him Jack's ashes because Jack wanted him to scatter them over Brokeback? 

If you believe Jack did tell Lureen Ennis' info then you have to believe Lureen simply refused her husband's wish.  Now we have a little secret.  Jack wanted one thing and Lureen refused.  So why then tell Ennis this secret?  Why tell Ennis what Jack wanted done with his ashes?  Makes no sense, tpe.


But, we do know Jack had other wishes.  What were they?

[Rønnaug]

I see your point Patriot1 but have you considered the possibility that Jack DID tell Lureen? If so, you say, why didn't she contact Ennis and why react like she did when he asked what'd happen?

Here is one possible idea.

Jack did tell Lureen that he wanted Ennis to scatter the ashes, and how to get in touch with him, but he only told here once in passing as I don't think he had time to tell her right BEFORE he dies. Lureen didn't want that, after all she thought Ennis was just a buddy, i can't see Jack telling Lureen why Ennis was special. When Ennis calls she still don't think he is special and she don't really see the importance of Brokeback. So she tells him the same that she tells all. Then when Ennis says "No mam, we was herdin' sheep up on Brokeback one summer, back in 63" she gets it. And rather than say it out loud, I mean who would, let's be honest, she tries to carry out Jacks wishes anyway.

Did that make sense at all?

[keren_b]

Just before Lureen's line about the ashes, Ennis says "we were good friends", and that's when Lureen's expression changes, she looks for a moment like she's going to break down (of course, she knows they were much more than friends), but then she composes herself,and gets this hard faced look on her and her voice, to quote the story, turns cold as snow when she says about the ashes. I remember when I watched the film the first time,not knowing what was going to happen, I got the feeling that Lureen was laying a trap for Ennis by encouraging him to go to see Jack's parents, and when Jack's dad told him about Randall, my first thought was that Jack's death was a consequence of his relationship with Randall,that Lureen told Jack's parents the real version of what happened, had known they would tell Ennis, and that was her revenge 
It's probably nowhere near as complicated as that, but the feeling that Lureen has an ulterior motive for suggesting Ennis visits Jack's parents has stayed with me everytime I've watched the DVD.

I looked at it in a different way... the fact that Lureen had suggested to Ennis to get in touch with Jack's folks and carry out his last wish, strengthen my opinion that by this point she understood the connection between them, and what Ennis meant to her husband. I agree that she probably realized that when Ennis told her that they herded sheep on Brokeback back in 1963, and then she realized not only that Brokeback was a real place, but also that Ennis was the reason why this place was so special to Jack, why it was "his favorite place in the world" like he said.
Now, in my eyes, a person's last wish is something almost sacred, and carrying out your loved one's last wish is something extremely important and private. If Lureen and Jack were a regular couple, in love with each other, I think it would've been important for Lureen to carry out his last wish herself. She could've asked Ennis to tell her where Brokeback mountain was, and then go there to scatter the ashes herself. If it was me, and it was my beloved husband's wish, I wouldn't want anyone else to scatter his ashes instead of me, I'd feel this is something that I should do. But Lureen suggested Ennis to do it... why? Maybe she just didn't love Jack enough to bother herself with that. And maybe, maybe she felt it wasn't her place to do it. Maybe she knew that the person who ought to carry out Jack's last wish was Ennis, the man who was with him on Brokeback mountain, the only person that he really loved.

[keren_b]

Ennis was just still in shock over Jack's death, and what ran through his mind was the vision of Jack and the tire iron.  His mind was already overflowing to pick up on Lureen's nunaces.

I agree with others that Ennis, in a small but groundbreaking way, finally comes close to telling the truth (in understated words) about he and Jack.  But this is an unintentional statement made in the unguarded honesty that shock sometimes brings.   Not a deliberate declaration.

I also totally agree with you on that one, dalemidex, I don't think Ennis was aware of the effect of his words on Lureen, and he definitely didn't out their relationship on purpose - in my eyes, that is. I think he was too caught up in his own thoughts and feelings and too shocked to be thinking about Lureen's reactions to him.

[keren_b]

If Jack wanted his ashes to be scattered on Brokeback, why didn't he give her a map to Brokeback?  Did Jack think Lureen was going to do the scattering herself?  Doubt that very much. So, who was to do the scattering?  Ennis Del Mar of course.  BUT, if that was true, why didn't Jack leave Lureen Ennis' name, address and phone number so she could call or write if Jack died to tell Ennis that Jack had died and she was sending him Jack's ashes because Jack wanted him to scatter them over Brokeback? 

If you believe Jack did tell Lureen Ennis' info then you have to believe Lureen simply refused her husband's wish.  Now we have a little secret.  Jack wanted one thing and Lureen refused.  So why then tell Ennis this secret?  Why tell Ennis what Jack wanted done with his ashes?  Makes no sense, tpe.

Patriot, that is a good point, but I think we have to consider that Jack didn't expect to die so soon. He probably thought he was going to live until old age, he didn't have a reason to make preparations for it at that point! He may have mentioned that he wanted his ashes to be scattered up there when he was talking about how much he loved this place, something like "this is my favorite place in the world, when I die I want my ashes to be scattered up there", but who would've thought at that time that Jack was going to get killed?? If Jack had a terminal illness, or if he had any other reason to feel his death is so close, he might have drawn her a map and make sure that she knew how to contact Ennis. He didn't do that (like she said, he kept all his friend's addresses in his head) because he had no reason to do that. He thought he had plenty of time until he died.

[dalemidex]

If Jack wanted his ashes to be scattered on Brokeback, why didn't he give her a map to Brokeback?  Did Jack think Lureen was going to do the scattering herself?  Doubt that very much. So, who was to do the scattering?  Ennis Del Mar of course.  BUT, if that was true, why didn't Jack leave Lureen Ennis' name, address and phone number so she could call or write if Jack died to tell Ennis that Jack had died and she was sending him Jack's ashes because Jack wanted him to scatter them over Brokeback? 

If you believe Jack did tell Lureen Ennis' info then you have to believe Lureen simply refused her husband's wish.  Now we have a little secret.  Jack wanted one thing and Lureen refused.  So why then tell Ennis this secret?  Why tell Ennis what Jack wanted done with his ashes?  Makes no sense, tpe.

Patriot, that is a good point, but I think we have to consider that Jack didn't expect to die so soon. He probably thought he was going to live until old age, he didn't have a reason to make preparations for it at that point! He may have mentioned that he wanted his ashes to be scattered up there when he was talking about how much he loved this place, something like "this is my favorite place in the world, when I die I want my ashes to be scattered up there", but who would've thought at that time that Jack was going to get killed?? If Jack had a terminal illness, or if he had any other reason to feel his death is so close, he might have drawn her a map and make sure that she knew how to contact Ennis. He didn't do that (like she said, he kept all his friend's addresses in his head) because he had no reason to do that. He thought he had plenty of time until he died.

At least to me, the whole ashes thing makes logical sense if I view it this way:

(a) At a few times during the course of their marriage, the discussion of death and final arrangements came up.  Might have been when a relative died.  Might have been when her parents bought cemetery plots and suggested that Jack and Lureen buy the adjacent ones.  Might have been hearing a story on the news about someone having their ashes scattered in an unusually noteworthy place.  But it came up a time or two in all those years.  If Lureen wanted to be buried together in a family plot it might even have been the source of conflict.  Cremation was seen as somewhat weird and strange back then compared to today, especially in a rural, traditional place.

(b)  Jack's talk of having ashes scattered on Brokeback was said innocently because (as Keren pointed out) he didn't plan on dying anytime soon.  It wasn't said (or received by Lureen) as any sort of sacred, final request to be honored, but as an off-the-cuff comment.  With "off the cuff" I don't mean to imply that Jack said it on a whim or without feeling or meaning, but rather that it was so far down the road.  (At 39 myself, I'm not sure I've fully accepted the fact that someday I'll be dead.)

(c)  When Jack did ultimately die splitting the ashes between Texas and Wyoming probably made some sense.  Doesn't sound like Lureen or Bobby ever met the Twists, and with no more Jack it was even less likely.  Lureen may have told the Twists about Brokeback Mountain, but if she did they did not reply or reply positively. Maybe it was only written in a letter.  Maybe she talked on the phone to them and their only reaction was something like "don't know -- why would he want that".

(d)  On the phone call when Lureen says that half his ashes was interred here, half was sent up to his folks, there's some disdain in her voice when she says the "he used to say he wanted his ashes scattered on Brokeback Mountain.  Thought it might be around where he grew up".  She's not being solemn and honoring of Jack's wishes.  She's taking a jab at his head-in-the-clouds nature...always off dreaming or scheming instead of being normal, conventional, grounded.   

(e)  When Lureen understands (mid phone call) what Brokeback really was to Jack, her tone at first is hurt.  Think of her face and voice as she says "Well, he said it was his favorite place.  I THOUGHT it meant to get drunk.  He drank a lot".  This is all delivered with hurt and a little hint of angry lashing back in her voice.  But then she shifts into what sounds more like "annoyed" than anything.   In the "They'll be there till the day they die" and "Get in touch with his folks.  I suppose they'd appreciate it if his wishes was carried -- about the ashes I mean" I think she sounds disdainful and annoyed at the whole thing, maybe even a little disgusted.  Her voice is saying  "the two old bats up there can have him and dump him in the outhouse for all I care".   She's really saying "I suppose you might want to honor the wishes of your dead lover, but I don't give a damn what you do."


On the front side there's no solemn duty and respectful planning because Jack is never going to die.

On the back side there's no solemn duty and respectful action because Lureen's too full of anger and disdain to care.

[NoReins]

And maybe, maybe she felt it wasn't her place to do it. Maybe she knew that the person who ought to carry out Jack's last wish was Ennis, the man who was with him on Brokeback mountain, the only person that he really loved.

That's a nice idea but I don't think it's true. I think she genuinely thought that Brokeback was either imaginary or somewhere near where he grew up - hence the reason for sending half the ashes to his parents. If Brokeback was real and near Lightning Flat then I guess she assumed they would carry out his wishes. She presumably buried half his ashes in Texas (and put up a stone) so that Bobby could visit his father's grave.

If she'd known about Ennis - or rather, known what Ennis and Jack were to each other - before the phone call then she may have had time to come to terms with it and allow Ennis to scatter the ashes because that's what Jack would have wanted, but she only realises the significance of Brokeback and the fact that Jack was in love with Ennis seconds before she says the bit about his parents appreciating it if Jack's last wishes were carried out.

Hope the above isn't too much of a ramble - I'm not sure if I've explained my point too well...

[bubbaluna]

Very interesting thread.....

just a few thoughts

I do believe strongly that Ennis was making a declaration of intense feelings if not love when he tells Lureen the REAL reason for the importance of Brokeback to Jack. He may not have been "happy" when he said this but I think deep down he was almost being territorial as if to say..."Part of Jack was mine"..Obviously this may have been done subconsciously but nonetheless is was done..and I strongly agree that ONE can surmise this PRECISELY from the tone of his voice!

I doubt that Jack and Lureen would have many deep conversations about his wishes for burial etc..after all he was 39 and healthy and had no reason to think he was going to die young. I also seriously doubt he talked divorce with Lureen. He would not have divorced her unless he could have been with Ennis ..permanently..

my two cents...

[keren_b]

And maybe, maybe she felt it wasn't her place to do it. Maybe she knew that the person who ought to carry out Jack's last wish was Ennis, the man who was with him on Brokeback mountain, the only person that he really loved.

That's a nice idea but I don't think it's true. I think she genuinely thought that Brokeback was either imaginary or somewhere near where he grew up - hence the reason for sending half the ashes to his parents. If Brokeback was real and near Lightning Flat then I guess she assumed they would carry out his wishes. She presumably buried half his ashes in Texas (and put up a stone) so that Bobby could visit his father's grave.

I'm sure that's what she thought before the phone call from Ennis, I'm not saying otherwise. But after Ennis had told her about Brokeback, when she found out it was a real place, why didn't she think of honoring Jack's last wish herself? why would she send Ennis to do it? Either she didn't care one way or the other and didn't want to be bothered with that, or maybe she realized that Ennis is the person who should do it, not her.

[NoReins]

And maybe, maybe she felt it wasn't her place to do it. Maybe she knew that the person who ought to carry out Jack's last wish was Ennis, the man who was with him on Brokeback mountain, the only person that he really loved.

That's a nice idea but I don't think it's true. I think she genuinely thought that Brokeback was either imaginary or somewhere near where he grew up - hence the reason for sending half the ashes to his parents. If Brokeback was real and near Lightning Flat then I guess she assumed they would carry out his wishes. She presumably buried half his ashes in Texas (and put up a stone) so that Bobby could visit his father's grave.

I'm sure that's what she thought before the phone call from Ennis, I'm not saying otherwise. But after Ennis had told her about Brokeback, when she found out it was a real place, why didn't she think of honoring Jack's last wish herself? why would she send Ennis to do it? Either she didn't care one way or the other and didn't want to be bothered with that, or maybe she realized that Ennis is the person who should do it, not her.

Ah, right, okay. Sorry - I thought you meant before the phone call.

You could be right, then - although I think I'd still lean towards her lack of action being indifference. After all, whatever love was involved when she married Jack has long gone (Jack's line "as far as our marriage is concerned we could do it over the phone" confirms that) so, other than being the dutiful wife, why should she care about his last wishes? (that's a rhetorical question btw!)

[Patriot1]

I see your point Patriot1 but have you considered the possibility that Jack DID tell Lureen? If so, you say, why didn't she contact Ennis and why react like she did when he asked what'd happen?

Here is one possible idea.

Jack did tell Lureen that he wanted Ennis to scatter the ashes, and how to get in touch with him, but he only told here once in passing as I don't think he had time to tell her right BEFORE he dies. Lureen didn't want that, after all she thought Ennis was just a buddy, i can't see Jack telling Lureen why Ennis was special. When Ennis calls she still don't think he is special and she don't really see the importance of Brokeback. So she tells him the same that she tells all. Then when Ennis says "No mam, we was herdin' sheep up on Brokeback one summer, back in 63" she gets it. And rather than say it out loud, I mean who would, let's be honest, she tries to carry out Jacks wishes anyway.

Did that make sense at all?

Esme, Good point.  Jack mentions to Lureen in passing that he loves Brokeback and he wants his ashes scattered there when he dies.  He tells her Ennis' contact information.  I assume he would write it down for her as he is less than 39 years old and I am sure he didn't expect her to remember that information for years to come.

Jack dies.  Like you say, Lureen didn't want Ennis to scatter Jack's ashes because they were just "buddys."  Why then, didn't Lureen contact Ennis after Jack died and tell him that Jack wanted to be scattered over Brokeback and ask that Ennis take her and her son to Brokeback so she could do that? 

Why would she say to Ennis on the phone, "Get in touch with his folks. I suppose they'd appreciate it if his wishes was carried out.  About the ashes, I mean."  and then, keep half of his  ashes in Texas?  Did she think Jack meant only a portion of his ashes should be scattered?  What would make her keep half of them?  I can't imagine she was particularly please with Jack at that point, knowing he was sleeping with other men. And why is it that only his parents would be pleased if his wishes were carried out?  Wouldn't she be pleased also?  CrimsonSky says later on down the thread that Lureen's voice changed when she told Ennis to get in touch with his parents, and I agree, it did.  And, I also got the feeling she was setting Ennis up for something.

I think I am getting off track here.  Very easy to do when you are discussing ashes along two separate and different tracks.  The question here is, what did Lureen mean when she said, "About the ashes, I mean."  What other wishes did Jack have that Ennis would now about?



This entire scene is loaded with questions.

[Jennis]

'' Jack dies.  Like you say, Lureen didn't want Ennis to scatter Jack's ashes because they were just "buddys."  Why then, didn't Lureen contact Ennis after Jack died and tell him that Jack wanted to be scattered over Brokeback and ask that Ennis take her and her son to Brokeback so she could do that?'' 



Patriot1,If you recall,Lureen said to Ennis on the telephone...

"I would have let you know,but i wasn't sure about your name or address.Jack kept his friends addresses in his head"

Jennis.x

[Patriot1]

Now that I have responded to Esme's train of thought, let me say that there is no way Jack could have told Lureen about Ennis.  As evidence I offer Lureen's own statement the she thought Brokeback might be some pretend place.  If Jack had said he wanted to be scattered on Brokeback and told her to contact Ennis she would have known Brokeback was a real place.  Why contact Ennis over a pretend place?

This is getting very complicated, I think, because of the ashes having two separate and distinct tracks to follow.  I may just have to start at the beginning of the scene and write down everything said and implied.

[Patriot1]

'' Jack dies.  Like you say, Lureen didn't want Ennis to scatter Jack's ashes because they were just "buddys."  Why then, didn't Lureen contact Ennis after Jack died and tell him that Jack wanted to be scattered over Brokeback and ask that Ennis take her and her son to Brokeback so she could do that?'' 



Patriot1,If you recall,Lureen said to Ennis on the telephone...

"I would have let you know,but i wasn't sure about your name or address.Jack kept his friends addresses in his head"

Jennis.x

Jennis, you have to follow the conversation sometime with me.  I will answer a persons statements as if they were true in order to show them that what they have said in not necessarily true.

[Jennis]

'' Jack dies.  Like you say, Lureen didn't want Ennis to scatter Jack's ashes because they were just "buddys."  Why then, didn't Lureen contact Ennis after Jack died and tell him that Jack wanted to be scattered over Brokeback and ask that Ennis take her and her son to Brokeback so she could do that?'' 



Patriot1,If you recall,Lureen said to Ennis on the telephone...

"I would have let you know,but i wasn't sure about your name or address.Jack kept his friends addresses in his head"

Jennis.x

Jennis, you have to follow the conversation sometime with me.  I will answer a persons statements as if they were true in order to show them that what they have said in not necessarily ture.

What's that supposed to mean?
J.x

[Jennis]

Patriot1,you said why didn't Lureen,contact Ennis,and i told you what she says in the film.i.e.She couldn't contact Ennis as she didn't know where he was from.If you think she did know and just didn't want to,or couldn't be bothered to tell him.That's a different story.Please don't insult my intelligence!
J.x

[keren_b]

The question here is, what did Lureen mean when she said, "About the ashes, I mean."  What other wishes did Jack have that Ennis would know about?

Jack wished that Ennis would come live with him at the ranch. he told that to his parents - "Ennis Del Mar, I'm gonna bring him up here some day..." he told his father about him wanting to build a cabin at the ranch and live there with Ennis. That was his wish, although I don't think Lureen knew about it. Only Ennis never came to the Twists ranch while Jack was still alive. Jack had to die for that to happen. He went there and he found the shirts, and when he took the shirts to his place Jack was finally living with him, in a way... Ironically sad.

[Patriot1]

Patriot1,you said why didn't Lureen,contact Ennis,and i told you what she says in the film.i.e.She couldn't contact Ennis as she didn't know where he was from.If you think she did know and just didn't want to,or couldn't be bothered to tell him.That's a different story.Please don't insult my intelligence!
J.x

Jennis, I am talking about my conversation with tpe and Esme.  What are you talking about?

[CherryCake]

This whole scene with Ennis and Lureen, when finally the two 'meet' really gets my tears a-flowing.  There are alot of good points and thoughts posted on here.  Patriot, I agree with you  totally, thanks for writing that.
When Lureen says ".. Get in touch with his folks. I supposed they'd appreciate it if his wishes was carried out.. about the ashes I mean."
I think she is aware of Jack's other wishes.  The ones Jack's folks woud not have appreciated.  Like his 'tendencies'.
Oh, Lureen knew.

[Jennis]

Patriot1,you said why didn't Lureen,contact Ennis,and i told you what she says in the film.i.e.She couldn't contact Ennis as she didn't know where he was from.If you think she did know and just didn't want to,or couldn't be bothered to tell him.That's a different story.Please don't insult my intelligence!
J.x

Jennis, I am talking about my conversation with tpe and Esme.  What are you talking about?

What you said to me earlier.That i should follow the conversation with you sometime?
J.x

[Patriot1]

Patriot1,you said why didn't Lureen,contact Ennis,and i told you what she says in the film.i.e.She couldn't contact Ennis as she didn't know where he was from.If you think she did know and just didn't want to,or couldn't be bothered to tell him.That's a different story.Please don't insult my intelligence!
J.x

Jennis, I am talking about my conversation with tpe and Esme.  What are you talking about?

What you said to me earlier.That i should follow the conversation with you sometime?
J.x

Actually I didn't say that. what I did say was,

Jennis, you have to follow the conversation sometime with me.  I will answer a persons statements as if they were true in order to show them that what they have said in not necessarily true.

I was meaning my conversation with Esme at that time.

Esme said,

Jack did tell Lureen that he wanted Ennis to scatter the ashes, and how to get in touch with him, but he only told here once in passing as I don't think he had time to tell her right BEFORE he dies. Lureen didn't want that, after all she thought Ennis was just a buddy, i can't see Jack telling Lureen why Ennis was special.

All emphasis add by Patriot1

So, going along with Esme that Jack did tell Lureen Ennis' information, I asked the question,

Jack dies.  Like you say, Lureen didn't want Ennis to scatter Jack's ashes because they were just "buddys."  Why then, didn't Lureen contact Ennis after Jack died and tell him that Jack wanted to be scattered over Brokeback and ask that Ennis take her and her son to Brokeback so she could do that? 

I was trying to get Esme to see that Jack never told Lureen anything about Ennis.  By asking the question I was trying to get Esme to think about it and come to the same conclusion rather than me just telling Esme she was wrong. 

Then, you chimed in with,

'' Jack dies.  Like you say, Lureen didn't want Ennis to scatter Jack's ashes because they were just "buddys."  Why then, didn't Lureen contact Ennis after Jack died and tell him that Jack wanted to be scattered over Brokeback and ask that Ennis take her and her son to Brokeback so she could do that?''

Patriot1,If you recall,Lureen said to Ennis on the telephone...

"I would have let you know,but i wasn't sure about your name or address.Jack kept his friends addresses in his head"

Jennis.x

I know Jack never told Lureen anything about Ennis and YOU knew that Laureen didn't know Ennis' info. So that is when I said to you,

Jennis, you have to follow the conversation sometime with me.  I will answer a persons statements as if they were true in order to show them that what they have said is not necessarily true.

What I meant was that you have to follow the conversation between Esme and myself.  I know, I worded it poorly.  But then I went on to tell you that,

I will answer a persons statements as if they were true in order to show them that what they have said is not necessarily true.

At which point you took offense and here we are with me explaining what I meant.

Did I explain?  Do you understand that I was not offending you?  If not, and seeing this is all WAY off topic, I will continue to explain in a PM.