Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: aimi15 on May 27, 2006, 12:12 PM
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Hi, i don't know if this has already been discussed, i can't find it so here goes -
I just got to wondering what went on after the conversation about shooting the sheep and the cut to Ennis shooting the elk. In particular after Jack uttering the line 'Well i won't'.
Immediately after that we see Ennis with the elk in his sights, and my main question is this -
Did Jack have to cajole Ennis into shooting the elk, or once he had made it clear he wasn't sticking with beans did Ennis make the decision straightaway to shoot the elk for him, and if so why?
Was is the thought of listening to Jack moaning about something else? Did Ennis feel obligated because in a way he felt responsible they had nothing but beans to eat? Or did he do it for some other reason? Affection maybe? Acceptance from Jack?
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated :t)
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I always took that as a sign of Ennis trying to give to or provide for Jack. Jack says after Ennis shoots the elk "Let's get a move on. Don't want the game and fish to catch us with no elk." Ennis broke the rules, if not the law, by doing that. So, I think it was out of affection for Jack.
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I think so too LJN, I think it was something Ennis did FOR Jack, same as when he ordered soup even tho he didn't like it...
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I always assumed that after that scene, Jack had probably tried to shoot an elk (or some other game) on his own but missed, probably more than once. This is because of Ennis' remark "Was gettin tired of your dumb-ass missin."
I'd also agree that Ennis felt bad that they had only beans to eat, so much so that he went and willingly broke the rules.
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Yes, I love this scene because we see Ennis trying to take care of Jack, IMO. But they're also working together at doing something not strictly work-related, which shows how well they go together. :)
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And it's symbolic- Ennis, who always has a sense of duty and wants to keep the rules, has already heard Jack complain about them.Now just for once he's been transgressive and, this time, got away with it - they don't get caught by the authorities. Ennis has broken through one limit for Jack, which prepares the way for further actions he wouldn't have contemplated before meeting Jack. It's as though Jack is leading Ennis to think for himself and make his own decisions, even if they aren't the "right" ones - but Ennis never learns to be like Jack, that's why he always stays in Riverton, works to make his child support payments and refuses to take the step that would let him live with Jack.
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Hi Aimi
What a great thread! ;)
The first time I saw this scene, I got the impression that even though Jack had the last word by saying "well I wont" that Ennis had pretty much made his mind up that he wasnt going to risk getting caught and that he'd just put up with beans - so obviously a metaphor of how Ennis was in his life, just sticking with what he knew, what he accepted as his lot in life. But Jack was the dreamer, the risk taker and after I thought about it, I realised that Ennis obviously did it to please Jack, but Ennis had to make the "sick of your dumb ass missin'" comment to cover up any obvious signs that it was an indication that he was softening towards Jack in a romantic sense. I often wonder what was said in the missing scene inbetween, and how it was approached - I now think that Jack probably told Ennis what he was going to do, and Ennis felt rather embarrassed by not taking part - after all, if Jack had gone and shot a sheep or elk on his own, was he just going to sit there next to Ennis and eat it, not offer any to Ennis, and would Ennis accept?
So I think there's a combination of Ennis not wanting to appear stubborn and foolish, and secretly wanting to do something for Jack, even if it was breaking the rules. They were part of a little breaking of rules, which was exciting, broke the monotony of camp life, and gave them some good meat to get their teeth into. And to top it all, Jack got Ennis to do what he wanted after all, and Ennis found a friend where none was expected.
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I always assumed that after that scene, Jack had probably tried to shoot an elk (or some other game) on his own but missed, probably more than once. This is because of Ennis' remark "Was gettin tired of your dumb-ass missin."
I think that when they came across the elk, Jack probably took the lead (like he did in everything) and had a few shots of his own at it. But then, as we see from the coyote-shooting scene, Jack is too impetuous and just fires the shot off without really taking aim, so he would almost always miss. As in the coyote scene, this leads to frustration on Jack's part - so Ennis takes over. I'm pretty sure that Ennis only originally went with Jack on the hunting expedition so he could watch Jack's back (in case the game people were watching maybe)
You know, as I type this, I'm actually thinking something weird....Jack is so impetuous in things like this, jumping in without any preamble....which is exactly how Ennis behaves in FNIT, contrary to everything we see of him before that. Sorry, I know that's OT, but I just thought of it.....
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Yes, it had been discussed in some old threads (about the times Ennis shows his love for Jack) that this is an instance where Ennis expresses his feelings. The same is true with the "I'm sick of beans" episode, as discussed in the old thread.
To hide or repress his own happiness at Jack's appreciation for the elk, Ennis had to resort to the excuse 'tired of your dumb-ass missin'. He just could not bring out his happiness at seeing how he had won Jack's admiration and affection in this instance. The same holds when he pushes Jack away at the end of the scene. He had to appear tough to Jack, even though he was probably melting inside.
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He had to appear tough to Jack, even though he was probably melting inside.
oh tpe, now I'm melting inside!! ^f^
What a lovely way of expressing that scene.
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He had to appear tough to Jack, even though he was probably melting inside.
oh tpe, now I'm melting inside!! ^f^
What a lovely way of expressing that scene.
Thanks Christie. Beneath that tough exterior, we do know that there is a softness/tenderness in Ennis's heart. Ennis did indeed show it in many wonderful and subtle ways in his love for Jack.
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Thank you all for your interesting replies! :t)
It's wonderful to get ideas bounced around like this, and it has given me plenty to think about.
One of my little theories with this scene (and believe me, i have theories coming out of my ears), is that Ennis maybe felt obligated to shoot the elk. After all, at this point he is camp tender. Jack goes out, looks out for the sheep, commutes four hours a day, comes back to camp and eats what Ennis has cooked. Ennis is provider. He feels he has to provide Jack with something to eat, and if Jack won't eat beans then it's up to Ennis to find an alternative.
I really feel for Ennis. His sense of obligation and duty haunt him throughout the time we see him. That's not always a bad thing IMHO, i think Jack did appreciate the little things Ennis would do for him, and these little gestures opened the way for their relationship to take effect.
To me though Ennis must have had genuine regard for Jack at this point, to go break the rules that he was quite determined to stick to. Providing for Jack seemed to win out over everything else. :)
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I really feel for Ennis. His sense of obligation and duty haunt him throughout the time we see him. That's not always a bad thing IMHO, i think Jack did appreciate the little things Ennis would do for him, and these little gestures opened the way for their relationship to take effect.
To me though Ennis must have had genuine regard for Jack at this point, to go break the rules that he was quite determined to stick to. Providing for Jack seemed to win out over everything else. :)
Duty adorned with affection ceases to be an obligation. I feel that for Ennis at that point, his duty was also an act of love.
Thanks also aimi15.
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Duty adorned with affection ceases to be an obligation.
Thank you tpe, truer words were never spoken. :)
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I don't really have anything to add atm, but just wanted to say thanks to everyone for all your posts,really enjoyed reading them :)
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I don't really have anything to add atm, but just wanted to say thanks to everyone for all your posts,really enjoyed reading them :)
CrimsonSky and aimi15, I am constantly amazed of how much nuance we get from scenes like this one. Simple wonderful.
One cheers. The other smiles. Both are in love.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pleasedancewithme.com%2FClipArtBrokebackMountainGyllenhaalLedgerAiming3.gif&hash=f60b401f64795334aa12cdb3da990e9ae26315a9)
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Look at how Ennis has that secretly pleased little smile because he's just heard Jack laugh! Isn't that gorgeous?
:t)
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I don't really have anything to add atm, but just wanted to say thanks to everyone for all your posts,really enjoyed reading them :)
CrimsonSky and aimi15, I am constantly amazed of how much nuance we get from scenes like this one. Simple wonderful.
One cheers. The other smiles. Both are in love.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pleasedancewithme.com%2FClipArtBrokebackMountainGyllenhaalLedgerAiming3.gif&hash=f60b401f64795334aa12cdb3da990e9ae26315a9)
Aww, I love how excited they are, like a couple of kids playing a prank on someone, then hiding behind a fence to watch ;D
Actually, it's just occured to me, the total lack of jealousy, or resentment, on Jack's part, when Ennis succeeds where he failed, in shooting the elk. You'd think most guys would feel that their nose had been put out of joint (especially as I get the impression it was Ennis's first shot that hit the elk), especially when you add Ennis's jibe about Jack's "dumb ass missing", but not Jack, he's just so proud of Ennis :)
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Thta's a good point CrimsonSky, now you come to mention it. You're right, Jack is just SO happy for Ennis. Probably even admires him getting the elk with one shot, knowing that if he'd have tried there'd be rounds flying all over the place. Bless him. tpe - i LOVE this pic!
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Yes Crimson Sky no jealously or resentment.
I always get a kick out of this scene. Ennis breaks the rules for Jack and then Jack has to be Jack and make the comment about the Fish & Game catching them. I like how Ennis kind of shoves him- almost like he's thinking Jack F'n Twist. :)
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I love the fact in this scene, too, that they both touch each other. Sure, it's a push in both cases, but it's happy and affectionate, and probably a preamble to upcoming events. Smiles, laughter, physical contact--the joy of being together. ::)
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Look at how Ennis has that secretly pleased little smile because he's just heard Jack laugh! Isn't that gorgeous?
:t)
Kinda like the one when he sees jack drive up after 4 years isn't it ;)
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There's also a conspiratorial in-this-together feel, like naughty kids, which forms a closer link betweeen them. In some ways scenes like this (and the wrestling one) are the sort of thing both probably missed when they were children.
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Thta's a good point CrimsonSky, now you come to mention it. You're right, Jack is just SO happy for Ennis. Probably even admires him getting the elk with one shot, knowing that if he'd have tried there'd be rounds flying all over the place. Bless him. tpe - i LOVE this pic!
I'd never thought of it like that either. Good point! Jack was just so pleased that Ennis had shot the elk, and its just really wonderful to see that little bit of banter going on between them......oh, so much to see just from one small scene!!
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I love the fact in this scene, too, that they both touch each other. Sure, it's a push in both cases, but it's happy and affectionate, and probably a preamble to upcoming events. Smiles, laughter, physical contact--the joy of being together. ::)
Oh yes Shieldmaid, i love that too. But any scenes where they touch each other I'm happy with!! Its very affectionate in the way they do it, but kind of "we're boys doing boys stuff" at the same time. Kind of weird for them, I suppose, knowing that there's growing affection between them, but they are still unsure of what steps to take next. I suppose shooting an elk is a kind of courting tradition, somewhere in the world. ;D Wyoming, for example. ;)
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I think Ennis did it because he cared for Jack.He was always thinking ahead.If Jack had carried out his threat and shot one of the sheep,and it got back to Aguirre(don't know how,up there in the middle of nowhere.But this was Ennis' excuse for not shooting a sheep),then they would probably have lost their jobs for sure.Maybe Ennis had this fear not only of losing his job,but of being brought down off the mountain a lot sooner just as he was getting to know Jack.We all see how he reacted when they were told by Aguirre to come down,which i also think didn't really have a lot to do with the snow storm,but more likely because of what Aguirre had witnessed.Back on topic...
Ennis took a big risk killing the elk.It was probably out of season,and he could have been in a lot more trouble for that then the sheep.The pushing of each other in jest also gave them the opportunity to 'Touch' one another.
Just my own little theories ;D
Jennis.x
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I think Ennis did it because he cared for Jack.He was always thinking ahead.If Jack had carried out his threat and shot one of the sheep,and it got back to Aguirre(don't know how,up there in the middle of nowhere.But this was Ennis' excuse for not shooting a sheep),then they would probably have lost their jobs for sure.Maybe Ennis had this fear not only of losing his job,but of being brought down off the mountain a lot sooner just as he was getting to know Jack.We all see how he reacted when they were told by Aguirre to come down,which i also think didn't really have a lot to do with the snow storm,but more likely because of what Aguirre had witnessed.Back on topic...
Ennis took a big risk killing the elk.It was probably out of season,and he could have been in a lot more trouble for that then the sheep.The pushing of each other in jest also gave them the opportunity to 'Touch' one another.
Just my own little theories ;D
Jennis.x
Jennis, I do think that this was precisely my opinion in my firat viewings of this scene. It is consistent with Ennis's quiet caring for Jack, as shown in the "No more Beans" episode. Remarkably consistent...
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If Jack does a kind of courting ritual with Ennis, and he does, this then is Ennis's response - kind of like coming back with the dead dragon or the ogre's head if he were a knight errant.
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If Jack does a kind of courting ritual with Ennis, and he does, this then is Ennis's response - kind of like coming back with the dead dragon or the ogre's head if he were a knight errant.
Wonderful analogy, welshwitch. :)
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There's also a conspiratorial in-this-together feel, like naughty kids, which forms a closer link betweeen them. In some ways scenes like this (and the wrestling one) are the sort of thing both probably missed when they were children.
Yes, yes, yes. O0
Jack was an only child living in the middle of nowhere, and Ennis had distant (movie) or abusive (short story) older brother who wasn't the type to bond with Ennis...
I'm on one of my hobbyhorses now, but I see part of the unique beauty of this movie as the chance we see for two human beings to experience an awakening to human connection. Jack had his mother, it seems, and Ennis had Alma, but that was it. (And I'm not sure that either of those relationships were ideal: Jack's mom may have come around more after Jack's death; and Ennis was looking for a way out of homelessness by marrying Alma). Certainly neither of them had a good, close, comfortable affection with another *male*, which is important for boys' development.
After the first night of drinking and talking (according to the short story), Ennis thinks he had "never had such a good time in all his life, and felt like he could paw the white from the moon."(quoting from memory.) I find that very touching. The sort of friendship that most of us take for granted, or, in a pinch, that we could strike up for just one evening, is the sort of thing that Ennis treasures.
Personally, I see "falling in friendship" as just as beautiful a thing as "falling in love." (In Greek this would be falling in "phileo" vs. falling in "eros.") Two different kinds of love, but both very beautiful. And Ennis and Jack got to experience both that summer.
And later, perhaps, the deepest love, agape....
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There's also a conspiratorial in-this-together feel, like naughty kids, which forms a closer link betweeen them. In some ways scenes like this (and the wrestling one) are the sort of thing both probably missed when they were children.
Yes, yes, yes. O0
Jack was an only child living in the middle of nowhere, and Ennis had distant (movie) or abusive (short story) older brother who wasn't the type to bond with Ennis...
I'm on one of my hobbyhorses now, but I see part of the unique beauty of this movie as the chance we see for two human beings to experience an awakening to human connection. Jack had his mother, it seems, and Ennis had Alma, but that was it. (And I'm not sure that either of those relationships were ideal: Jack's mom may have come around more after Jack's death; and Ennis was looking for a way out of homelessness by marrying Alma). Certainly neither of them had a good, close, comfortable affection with another *male*, which is important for boys' development.
After the first night of drinking and talking (according to the short story), Ennis thinks he had "never had such a good time in all his life, and felt like he could paw the white from the moon."(quoting from memory.) I find that very touching. The sort of friendship that most of us take for granted, or, in a pinch, that we could strike up for just one evening, is the sort of thing that Ennis treasures.
Personally, I see "falling in friendship" as just as beautiful a thing as "falling in love." (In Greek this would be falling in "phileo" vs. falling in "eros.") Two different kinds of love, but both very beautiful. And Ennis and Jack got to experience both that summer.
And later, perhaps, the deepest love, agape....
Love and friendship are one with me. And to give one's life for a friend is indeed the greatest form of love.
I stopped the discussion on the Jake Superstar thread precisely at this point. But I should say it here: I believe that in the end, their love did touch the hem of Agape.
Love is the deepest form of friendship. And there can be no deep friendship without love. The deepest form of love is the most perfect friendship: it is beyond death itself.
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There's also a conspiratorial in-this-together feel, like naughty kids, which forms a closer link betweeen them. In some ways scenes like this (and the wrestling one) are the sort of thing both probably missed when they were children.
Yes, yes, yes. O0
Jack was an only child living in the middle of nowhere, and Ennis had distant (movie) or abusive (short story) older brother who wasn't the type to bond with Ennis...
I'm on one of my hobbyhorses now, but I see part of the unique beauty of this movie as the chance we see for two human beings to experience an awakening to human connection. Jack had his mother, it seems, and Ennis had Alma, but that was it. (And I'm not sure that either of those relationships were ideal: Jack's mom may have come around more after Jack's death; and Ennis was looking for a way out of homelessness by marrying Alma). Certainly neither of them had a good, close, comfortable affection with another *male*, which is important for boys' development.
After the first night of drinking and talking (according to the short story), Ennis thinks he had "never had such a good time in all his life, and felt like he could paw the white from the moon."(quoting from memory.) I find that very touching. The sort of friendship that most of us take for granted, or, in a pinch, that we could strike up for just one evening, is the sort of thing that Ennis treasures.
Personally, I see "falling in friendship" as just as beautiful a thing as "falling in love." (In Greek this would be falling in "phileo" vs. falling in "eros.") Two different kinds of love, but both very beautiful. And Ennis and Jack got to experience both that summer.
And later, perhaps, the deepest love, agape....
Love and friendship are one with me. And to give one's life for a friend is indeed the greatest form of love.
I stopped the discussion on the Jake Superstar thread precisely at this point. But I should say it here: I believe that in the end, their love did touch the hem of Agape.
Love is the deepest form of friendship. And there can be no deep friendship without love. The deepest form of love is the most perfect friendship: it is beyond death itself.
:\'(
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What a beautiful post, Edgar - made me cry.
I thik we respond to the movie because it includes so many differnt aspects and types of love; this little scene is so much about companionship and trust, the sort that allows you to let your guard down and laugh and be yourself. I think Ennis, in particular, had always been so guarded that he rarely could be himself. Part of the pleasure of being in love is being childlike ( not childish) together safe in the knowledge that you can.
I also think that Ennis had never had anyone he could ( felt he was allowed to) touch before and here he's just learning how to do it.
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What a beautiful post, Edgar - made me cry.
I thik we respond to the movie because it includes so many differnt aspects and types of love; this little scene is so much about companionship and trust, the sort that allows you to let your guard down and laugh and be yourself. I think Ennis, in particular, had always been so guarded that he rarely could be himself. Part of the pleasure of being in love is being childlike ( not childish) together safe in the knowledge that you can.
I also think that Ennis had never had anyone he could ( felt he was allowed to) touch before and here he's just learning how to do it.
Thanks for the nice words, welshwitch. "I also think that Ennis had never had anyone he could (felt he was allowed to) touch before and here he's just learning how to do it." Very good point. In the short story (I know, I know, we're not supposed to analyze one through the other; sorry) Ennis's brother was always hitting him, and I doubt his father ever touched him except to punish him. And probably with Alma he was very careful not to overstep the bounds.
So he is "just learning how" to touch a human being. Sad for a nineteen year old.
Later on (apart from overtly sexual touching) he wrestles with Jack, the dozy embrace, etc. But he still reverts back to his upbringing when he hits Jack right before they come down from the mountain. I think Ennis just reverted to his childhood programming there.
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Thanks again welshwitch and edgar for the beautiful meditations.
I will never tire of them.
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Thanks for the kind comments, TPE, No need to say how much I enjoy all your insights.
to get back to the scene, I like the idea that neither of them has ever had anyone to praise them before, and we all enjoy admiration and approval. Jack's father clearly didn't encourage him, and Ennis's father doesn't sound the sort to have done so either, so how good would it be to be Ennis and have Jack clearly showing his admiration for your skill, and the knowledge that you were able to feed him and yourself?
And for Jack the "dumb-ass missing" is less a criticism than a sign from Ennis that he feels safe enough to joke, and to share laughter with the one you love is a wonderful experience of harmony. How much laughter have they had in their lives? Precious little, I should think.
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And for Jack the "dumb-ass missing" is less a criticism than a sign from Ennis that he feels safe enough to joke, and to share laughter with the one you love is a wonderful experience of harmony. How much laughter have they had in their lives? Precious little, I should think.
Joking didn't seem to come easy for Ennis. The crowning touch on BBM in 63 was the joke about running off the sheep with Jack's harmonica playing. In his smile, you see glowing affection.
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i enjoy reading all posts. :t)
it seems to me that for ennis anyting (although breaking rules) could be done on BbM except things that would impact his life in the future. sheep was his work / life. alma was also his promise. elk was not in his normal life down the BbM. it shows how responsible ennis was. that was what ennis liked about going away from people. he could be free and did what he really wanted to do (with jack of course). but he couldn't get away from rules actually like us in this world. there are rules everywhere. how could we find a way to BbM? it would be nice if we are in our BbM, free as ennis did.
at least, ennis and jack had his place to get away from people and rules and were together although just a little time. some of us don't have that place and time for the whole lives. :cr) to love and free.
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I must be stupid - it never occurred to me before that of course Ennis had had nothing to do with sheep before and never did again - he was involved with cattle, doing the macho bit. Jack had been there the previous summer, but never went back there to to tending sheep - he went off on the rodeo circuit, again doing the macho thing. I wonder if shooting the elk was something Ennis did because in the middle of all these thiongs - herding sheep, getting close to someone else and making friendss, it was a safely macho thing to do. then later they at least pretend to go fishing and do go hunting - throughout their lives they evidently felt compelled to appear outwardly steroetypical Western men.
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I must be stupid - it never occurred to me before that of course Ennis had had nothing to do with sheep before and never did again - he was involved with cattle, doing the macho bit. Jack had been there the previous summer, but never went back there to to tending sheep - he went off on the rodeo circuit, again doing the macho thing. I wonder if shooting the elk was something Ennis did because in the middle of all these thiongs - herding sheep, getting close to someone else and making friendss, it was a safely macho thing to do. then later they at least pretend to go fishing and do go hunting - throughout their lives they evidently felt compelled to appear outwardly steroetypical Western men.
Nah, Ennis shot the Elk simply because his darlin was hungry...not to be macho. Jack was hungry and tired of beans. Ennis to the rescue!!! So adorable ;)
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I must be stupid - it never occurred to me before that of course Ennis had had nothing to do with sheep before and never did again - he was involved with cattle, doing the macho bit. Jack had been there the previous summer, but never went back there to to tending sheep - he went off on the rodeo circuit, again doing the macho thing. I wonder if shooting the elk was something Ennis did because in the middle of all these thiongs - herding sheep, getting close to someone else and making friendss, it was a safely macho thing to do. then later they at least pretend to go fishing and do go hunting - throughout their lives they evidently felt compelled to appear outwardly steroetypical Western men.
Nah, Ennis shot the Elk simply because his darlin was hungry...not to be macho. Jack was hungry and tired of beans. Ennis to the rescue!!! So adorable ;)
Yeah, and because Jack was a lousy shot (tired of your dumb-ass missin')
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I must be stupid - it never occurred to me before that of course Ennis had had nothing to do with sheep before and never did again - he was involved with cattle, doing the macho bit. Jack had been there the previous summer, but never went back there to to tending sheep - he went off on the rodeo circuit, again doing the macho thing. I wonder if shooting the elk was something Ennis did because in the middle of all these thiongs - herding sheep, getting close to someone else and making friendss, it was a safely macho thing to do. then later they at least pretend to go fishing and do go hunting - throughout their lives they evidently felt compelled to appear outwardly steroetypical Western men.
Nah, Ennis shot the Elk simply because his darlin was hungry...not to be macho. Jack was hungry and tired of beans. Ennis to the rescue!!! So adorable ;)
Wonderfully and simply said, gimmejack. :) Jack pouted and Ennis provided. No instruction manual needed.
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So cute..."Jack pouted". I like that...kind of child like.
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Jack probably bitched up a storm about the food situation...... well Ennis did owe him supper. I can hear Ennis saying soImethin like" I got an idea, come with me". Took Jack huntin and scored the elk impressing Jack at the same time It's what I lBasicove about Ennis so simple and efficient. Need food ? " bang"! there ya go.Basic.
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Do you think he applies the same principles to sex?
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Do you think he applies the same principles to sex?
LOL ::)
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Do you think he applies the same principles to sex?
LOL ::)
Yes, he probably does.
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I would hope we all go along with our basic instincts. It's just the way he is.
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I always thought Ennis had to shot the elk since he was the one who COULD shot it (remember how Jack missed the cojote??) *g*
Love to read all your opinions though :D
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I always thought Ennis had to shot the elk since he was the one who COULD shot it (remember how Jack missed the cojote??) *g*
Love to read all your opinions though :D
This is correct, IMO. Jack was not that good with the gun. But remember that sticking to beans was fine with Ennis and not with Jack. Jack probably tried to shoot a few Elk and missed. (Tired of you dumb***** missin...) Ennis then probably went out of his way to shoot an Elk for Jack.
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I always thought Ennis had to shot the elk since he was the one who COULD shot it (remember how Jack missed the cojote??) *g*
Love to read all your opinions though :D
This is correct, IMO. Jack was not that good with the gun. But remember that sticking to beans was fine with Ennis and not with Jack. Jack probably tried to shoot a few Elk and missed. (Tired of you dumb***** missin...) Ennis then probably went out of his way to shoot an Elk for Jack.
Ennis wasn't too keen on stickin with the beans either was he? Anyway, it's so sweet of him to want to (probably subconsciously) provide for Jack :)
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I always thought Ennis had to shot the elk since he was the one who COULD shot it (remember how Jack missed the cojote??) *g*
Love to read all your opinions though :D
This is correct, IMO. Jack was not that good with the gun. But remember that sticking to beans was fine with Ennis and not with Jack. Jack probably tried to shoot a few Elk and missed. (Tired of you dumb***** missin...) Ennis then probably went out of his way to shoot an Elk for Jack.
Ennis wasn't too keen on stickin with the beans either was he? Anyway, it's so sweet of him to want to (probably subconsciously) provide for Jack :)
If he wasn't, then why did he say that he would stick with beans? To which Jack replied Well I won't.
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I reckon Ennis would have stuck with beans....just like he sticks with his life with Alma. He wasn't one to go chasing after something better, always just putting up with whatever life threw at him. Maybe he was forced to think like that when his folks were killed - no money for an education or a new truck (or even to fix the old one) so he had to just suck it up and make do with what he had.
But he definitely shot the elk because he wanted to do something sweet for Jack, whether it's as an act of friendship or the first sign of feelings for Jack is irrelevant. He did something nice for Jack because Jack had done something nice for him - listened to him, where no-one else ever had.
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I reckon Ennis would have stuck with beans....just like he sticks with his life with Alma. He wasn't one to go chasing after something better, always just putting up with whatever life threw at him. Maybe he was forced to think like that when his folks were killed - no money for an education or a new truck (or even to fix the old one) so he had to just suck it up and make do with what he had.
But he definitely shot the elk because he wanted to do something sweet for Jack, whether it's as an act of friendship or the first sign of feelings for Jack is irrelevant. He did something nice for Jack because Jack had done something nice for him - listened to him, where no-one else ever had.
I do think there is a pattern of stoicism throughout his life -- and as NoReins had pointed out, a good example would be Ennis sticking to the marriage till the end for the sake of the childern (among other things.) His willingness to stick to beans is certainly another example of his willingness to bear things out. As Patriot1 said, he vocalized this willingness to Jack. NOt that he liked beans anymore than Jack -- but he was willing to live with it if it became expedient to do so.
In this light, it would indeed seem that Ennis shot the Elk for Jack's sake.
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It's a macho thing to do, too - but mainly i think a sign that Ennis can break through prohibitions and boundaries, as he does in becoming involved with Jack. But this happens only on the mountain; away from there Ennis reverts to (stoic) type.
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I always thought Ennis had to shot the elk since he was the one who COULD shot it (remember how Jack missed the cojote??) *g*
Love to read all your opinions though :D
This is correct, IMO. Jack was not that good with the gun. But remember that sticking to beans was fine with Ennis and not with Jack. Jack probably tried to shoot a few Elk and missed. (Tired of you dumb***** missin...) Ennis then probably went out of his way to shoot an Elk for Jack.
Ennis wasn't too keen on stickin with the beans either was he? Anyway, it's so sweet of him to want to (probably subconsciously) provide for Jack :)
If he wasn't, then why did he say that he would stick with beans? To which Jack replied Well I won't.
Coz Ennis said he was *sick of beans*. And I didn't say he wouldn't have stuck with beans just that he wasn't to keen on eating them. And it's not like Ennis needed much conviction to shot the elk either.
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That's the whole point, though....Ennis only said that to the Basque as a convenient answer....the truth (that Jack was sick of beans) would have sounded too odd and the Basque might have wondered why Ennis cared that Jack didn't want beans:
Jack said "No more beans" - Ennis said nothing but then didn't ask for beans when he handed over next week's list
Jack said they had to do something about the food situation - Ennis said he would stick with beans - Jack said "well, I won't"
As to the whole elk shooting incident, Jack had obviously already tried to shoot the elk a few times because when Ennis finally does shoot it he says "was tired of your dumbass missin'"...i.e. he shot the elk because Jack couldn't and because he knew that Jack wanted something other than beans to eat.
Remember, we also see Ennis eating beans later on (in the scene where Jack asks him if his brother and sister did right by him) and when he's eating them he's making little "mmmm" noises like he's actually enjoying them. Don't know how relevant that is, mind.
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Shooting the elk was also perhaps the lesser of two evils in Ennis's mind - it didn't " belong" to anyone in the way that the sheep belonged to Aguirre.
Eating beans, of which he was sick, was a lesser evil too - Ennis is always prepared to do without rather than get into difficult situations.
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Shooting the elk was also perhaps the lesser of two evils in Ennis's mind - it didn't " belong" to anyone in the way that the sheep belonged to Aguirre.
Eating beans, of which he was sick, was a lesser evil too - Ennis is always prepared to do without rather than get into difficult situations.
Sounds like Ennis to a tee.
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Shooting the elk was also perhaps the lesser of two evils in Ennis's mind - it didn't " belong" to anyone in the way that the sheep belonged to Aguirre.
Eating beans, of which he was sick, was a lesser evil too - Ennis is always prepared to do without rather than get into difficult situations.
Sounds like Ennis to a tee.
I do agree.
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Shooting the elk was also perhaps the lesser of two evils in Ennis's mind - it didn't " belong" to anyone in the way that the sheep belonged to Aguirre.
Eating beans, of which he was sick, was a lesser evil too - Ennis is always prepared to do without rather than get into difficult situations.
Sounds like Ennis to a tee.
I do agree.
I think Ennis shooting the elk shows how much influence Jack had on Ennis even that early in their relationship. Jack comments that they don't want the Forest Service Fish and Game to catch them with an elk. I don't know how it was in 1963, but nowadays in most states you need a license to hunt and/or fish. And, in most states the deer/moose/elk hunting seasons usually takes place in the fall (October/November). If caught, Ennis and Jack would have probably been fined (and their actions might have also gotten Aguirre fined, too because they were herding sheep on Forest Service land).
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I think Ennis felt obligated to Jack to provide the meals as camp tender at the time, although I also think that Jack pissed and moaned about having to eat more beans, which was all that was left of the supplies after the bear incident.Could also mean that Ennis saw an opportunity to show off his shooting skills to Jack and provide dinner at the same time. He seemed proud of himself after scoring the elk by the way he snatched the gloves from the rock. Jack was definitly impressed but teased Ennis about getting caught with it. Maybe there's a tie in later on when Ennis tells jack that he killed a coyote after their roles where switched. Ennis had to hear the shotgun blast echoes through the mountain and knew Jack was shooting at something when Jack attempted to shoot the predator, hence Ennis bein tired of Jack's "dumbass missin".There's light moments between them in the film and IMO this is just one of them.
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It's illegality - killing game without a license -piled on illegality - Aguirre's instructions about the pup-tent.It underlines the theme of transgressiveness. What they do transgresses the norms of their society. the first two appear to have no consequences - the last has endless and tragic ones.
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You're absolutely right welshwitch. I always found it so touching that Ennis, with his firm sense of right and wrong, took it upon himself to break the rules like this. Jack was the touchpaper to him 'breaking out' i suppose.
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I think Ennis felt obligated to Jack to provide the meals as camp tender at the time, although I also think that Jack pissed and moaned about having to eat more beans, which was all that was left of the supplies after the bear incident.Could also mean that Ennis saw an opportunity to show off his shooting skills to Jack and provide dinner at the same time. He seemed proud of himself after scoring the elk by the way he snatched the gloves from the rock. Jack was definitly impressed but teased Ennis about getting caught with it. Maybe there's a tie in later on when Ennis tells jack that he killed a coyote after their roles where switched. Ennis had to hear the shotgun blast echoes through the mountain and knew Jack was shooting at something when Jack attempted to shoot the predator, hence Ennis bein tired of Jack's "dumbass missin".There's light moments between them in the film and IMO this is just one of them.
Perhaps Ennis was mildly showing off here, although I had always thought of him as naturally self-effacing. I don't think it was in his nature to be a show-off, but a chance of getting ack's attention is perhaps sufficient to encourage Ennis to show Jack a thing or two, no?
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You're absolutely right welshwitch. I always found it so touching that Ennis, with his firm sense of right and wrong, took it upon himself to break the rules like this. Jack was the touchpaper to him 'breaking out' i suppose.
Yes, I fully agree. Ennis went out of his usual way to accomodate Jack. It is the way he expressed his love.
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With hunting season opening here in Pennsylvania, I am reminded of this scene in the movie. Indeed Ennis 's motto should have been "I can show ya better than I can tell ya". He expressed his love to Jack in actions more than words. This is just one example of Ennis compromising his firm beleif of right and wrong to please and accommadate Jack. Even at this point Ennis's feelings for Jack was evident breaking the laws of the land to please him . Any way IMO Aguirre threw the watch to to the wrong person because obviously Ennis and Jack 's roles were better suited to them the other way around as they soon realized, with Jack being camp tender and Ennis the herder being more in his element considering his outdoorsman skills. ( I always thought Jack's idea of them both doing the same jobs at the same time together was'nt a bad idea either) . Although he broke the rules any hunter would be impressed with Ennis's skills as a elk/deer hunter, as Jack certainly was. So thanks to Jack's probable bitchin about dinner and Ennis's shooting they had plenty of meat to go with all them beans.!
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Jack is certainly not a stoic by nature. And Ennis certainly approximates one very well. This scene with the elk emphasizes this distinction, as much as it says something about the roles that suited each one better...