Topic: Between shooting sheep and shooting elk

[tpe]

There's also a conspiratorial in-this-together feel, like naughty kids, which forms a closer link betweeen them. In some ways scenes like this (and the wrestling one) are the sort of thing both probably missed when they were children.

Yes, yes, yes. 

Jack was an only child living in the middle of nowhere, and Ennis had distant (movie) or abusive (short story) older brother who wasn't the type to bond with Ennis...

I'm on one of my hobbyhorses now, but I see part of the unique beauty of this movie as the chance we see for two human beings to experience an awakening to human connection. Jack had his mother, it seems, and Ennis had Alma, but that was it. (And I'm not sure that either of those relationships were ideal: Jack's mom may have come around more after Jack's death; and Ennis was looking for a way out of homelessness by marrying Alma). Certainly neither of them had a good, close, comfortable affection with another *male*, which is important for boys' development.

After the first night of drinking and talking (according to the short story), Ennis thinks he had "never had such a good time in all his life, and felt like he could paw the white from the moon."(quoting from memory.) I find that very touching. The sort of friendship that most of us take for granted, or, in a pinch, that we could strike up for just one evening, is the sort of thing that Ennis treasures.

Personally, I see "falling in friendship" as just as beautiful a thing as "falling in love." (In Greek this would be falling in "phileo" vs. falling in "eros.") Two different kinds of love, but both very beautiful. And Ennis and Jack got to experience both that summer.

And later, perhaps, the deepest love, agape....

Love and friendship are one with me.  And to give one's life for a friend is indeed the greatest form of love. 

I stopped the discussion on the Jake Superstar thread precisely at this point.  But I should say it here: I believe that in the end, their love did touch the hem of Agape. 

Love is the deepest form of friendship.  And there can be no deep friendship without love.  The deepest form of love is the most perfect friendship: it is beyond death itself.

[edgar]

There's also a conspiratorial in-this-together feel, like naughty kids, which forms a closer link betweeen them. In some ways scenes like this (and the wrestling one) are the sort of thing both probably missed when they were children.

Yes, yes, yes. 

Jack was an only child living in the middle of nowhere, and Ennis had distant (movie) or abusive (short story) older brother who wasn't the type to bond with Ennis...

I'm on one of my hobbyhorses now, but I see part of the unique beauty of this movie as the chance we see for two human beings to experience an awakening to human connection. Jack had his mother, it seems, and Ennis had Alma, but that was it. (And I'm not sure that either of those relationships were ideal: Jack's mom may have come around more after Jack's death; and Ennis was looking for a way out of homelessness by marrying Alma). Certainly neither of them had a good, close, comfortable affection with another *male*, which is important for boys' development.

After the first night of drinking and talking (according to the short story), Ennis thinks he had "never had such a good time in all his life, and felt like he could paw the white from the moon."(quoting from memory.) I find that very touching. The sort of friendship that most of us take for granted, or, in a pinch, that we could strike up for just one evening, is the sort of thing that Ennis treasures.

Personally, I see "falling in friendship" as just as beautiful a thing as "falling in love." (In Greek this would be falling in "phileo" vs. falling in "eros.") Two different kinds of love, but both very beautiful. And Ennis and Jack got to experience both that summer.

And later, perhaps, the deepest love, agape....

Love and friendship are one with me.  And to give one's life for a friend is indeed the greatest form of love. 

I stopped the discussion on the Jake Superstar thread precisely at this point.  But I should say it here: I believe that in the end, their love did touch the hem of Agape. 

Love is the deepest form of friendship.  And there can be no deep friendship without love.  The deepest form of love is the most perfect friendship: it is beyond death itself.

 :\'(

[welshwitch]

What a beautiful post, Edgar - made me cry.

I thik we respond to the movie because it includes so many differnt aspects and types of love; this little scene is so much about companionship and trust, the sort that allows you to let your guard down and laugh and be yourself. I think Ennis, in particular, had always been so guarded that he rarely could be himself. Part of the pleasure of being in love is being childlike ( not childish) together safe in the knowledge that you can.

I also think that Ennis had never had anyone he could ( felt he was allowed to) touch before and here he's just learning how to do it.

[edgar]

What a beautiful post, Edgar - made me cry.

I thik we respond to the movie because it includes so many differnt aspects and types of love; this little scene is so much about companionship and trust, the sort that allows you to let your guard down and laugh and be yourself. I think Ennis, in particular, had always been so guarded that he rarely could be himself. Part of the pleasure of being in love is being childlike ( not childish) together safe in the knowledge that you can.

I also think that Ennis had never had anyone he could ( felt he was allowed to) touch before and here he's just learning how to do it.

Thanks for the nice words, welshwitch. "I also think that Ennis had never had anyone he could (felt he was allowed to) touch before and here he's just learning how to do it." Very good point. In the short story (I know, I know, we're not supposed to analyze one through the other; sorry) Ennis's brother was always hitting him, and I doubt his father ever touched him except to punish him. And probably with Alma he was very careful not to overstep the bounds.
So he is "just learning how" to touch a human being. Sad for a nineteen year old.
Later on (apart from overtly sexual touching) he wrestles with Jack, the dozy embrace, etc. But he still reverts back to his upbringing when he hits Jack right before they come down from the mountain. I think Ennis just reverted to his childhood programming there.

[tpe]

Thanks again welshwitch and edgar for the beautiful meditations. 

I will never tire of them.

[welshwitch]

Thanks for the kind comments, TPE, No need to say how much I enjoy all your insights.

to get back to the scene, I like the idea that neither of them has ever had anyone to praise them before, and we all enjoy admiration and approval. Jack's father clearly didn't encourage him, and Ennis's father doesn't sound the sort to have done so either, so how good would it  be to be Ennis and have Jack clearly showing his admiration for your skill, and the knowledge that you were able to feed him and yourself?
And for Jack the "dumb-ass missing" is less a criticism than a sign from Ennis that he feels safe enough to joke, and to share laughter with the one you love is a wonderful experience of harmony. How much laughter have they had in their lives? Precious little, I should think. 

[tpe]

And for Jack the "dumb-ass missing" is less a criticism than a sign from Ennis that he feels safe enough to joke, and to share laughter with the one you love is a wonderful experience of harmony. How much laughter have they had in their lives? Precious little, I should think. 

Joking didn't seem to come easy for Ennis.  The crowning touch on BBM  in 63 was the joke about running off the sheep with Jack's harmonica playing.  In his smile, you see glowing affection.

[TheBoyFromNoWhere]

i enjoy reading all posts. 

it seems to me that for ennis anyting (although breaking rules) could be done on BbM except things that would impact his life in the future.  sheep was his work / life.  alma was also his promise.  elk was not in his normal life down the BbM.  it shows how responsible ennis was.  that was what ennis liked about going away from people.  he could be free and did what he really wanted to do (with jack of course).  but he couldn't get away from rules actually like us in this world.  there are rules everywhere.  how could we find a way to BbM?  it would be nice if we are in our BbM, free as ennis did.

at least, ennis and jack had his place to get away from people and rules and were together although just a little time.  some of us don't have that place and time for the whole lives.    to love and free. 

[welshwitch]

I must be stupid - it never occurred to me before that of course Ennis had had nothing to do with sheep before and never did again - he was involved with cattle, doing the macho bit. Jack had been there the previous summer, but never went back there to to tending sheep - he went off on the rodeo circuit, again doing the macho thing. I wonder if shooting the elk was something Ennis did because in the middle of all these thiongs  - herding sheep, getting close to someone else and making friendss, it was a safely macho thing to do. then later they at least pretend to go fishing and do go hunting - throughout their lives they evidently felt compelled to appear outwardly steroetypical Western men.

[gimmejack]

I must be stupid - it never occurred to me before that of course Ennis had had nothing to do with sheep before and never did again - he was involved with cattle, doing the macho bit. Jack had been there the previous summer, but never went back there to to tending sheep - he went off on the rodeo circuit, again doing the macho thing. I wonder if shooting the elk was something Ennis did because in the middle of all these thiongs  - herding sheep, getting close to someone else and making friendss, it was a safely macho thing to do. then later they at least pretend to go fishing and do go hunting - throughout their lives they evidently felt compelled to appear outwardly steroetypical Western men.

Nah, Ennis shot the Elk simply because his darlin was hungry...not to be macho.  Jack was hungry and tired of beans.  Ennis to the rescue!!!  So adorable 

[NoReins]

I must be stupid - it never occurred to me before that of course Ennis had had nothing to do with sheep before and never did again - he was involved with cattle, doing the macho bit. Jack had been there the previous summer, but never went back there to to tending sheep - he went off on the rodeo circuit, again doing the macho thing. I wonder if shooting the elk was something Ennis did because in the middle of all these thiongs  - herding sheep, getting close to someone else and making friendss, it was a safely macho thing to do. then later they at least pretend to go fishing and do go hunting - throughout their lives they evidently felt compelled to appear outwardly steroetypical Western men.

Nah, Ennis shot the Elk simply because his darlin was hungry...not to be macho.  Jack was hungry and tired of beans.  Ennis to the rescue!!!  So adorable 

Yeah, and because Jack was a lousy shot (tired of your dumb-ass missin')

[CherryCake]

I must be stupid - it never occurred to me before that of course Ennis had had nothing to do with sheep before and never did again - he was involved with cattle, doing the macho bit. Jack had been there the previous summer, but never went back there to to tending sheep - he went off on the rodeo circuit, again doing the macho thing. I wonder if shooting the elk was something Ennis did because in the middle of all these thiongs  - herding sheep, getting close to someone else and making friendss, it was a safely macho thing to do. then later they at least pretend to go fishing and do go hunting - throughout their lives they evidently felt compelled to appear outwardly steroetypical Western men.

Nah, Ennis shot the Elk simply because his darlin was hungry...not to be macho.  Jack was hungry and tired of beans.  Ennis to the rescue!!!  So adorable 

Wonderfully and simply said, gimmejack.      Jack  pouted and Ennis provided. No instruction manual needed.

[gimmejack]

So cute..."Jack pouted".  I like that...kind of child like.

[aintfoolin]

Jack probably bitched up a storm about the food situation...... well Ennis did owe him supper. I can hear Ennis saying soImethin like" I got an idea, come with me". Took Jack huntin and scored the elk impressing Jack at the same time It's what I lBasicove about Ennis so simple and efficient. Need food ? " bang"! there ya go.Basic.

[welshwitch]

Do you think he applies the same principles to sex?

[CherryCake]

Do you think he applies the same principles to sex?

LOL   

[tpe]

Do you think he applies the same principles to sex?

LOL   

Yes, he probably does.

 

[aintfoolin]

I would hope we all go along with our basic instincts. It's just the way he is.

[EnnisTwist]

I always thought Ennis had to shot the elk since he was the one who COULD shot it (remember how Jack missed the cojote??) *g*

Love to read all your opinions though :D

[tpe]

I always thought Ennis had to shot the elk since he was the one who COULD shot it (remember how Jack missed the cojote??) *g*

Love to read all your opinions though :D

This is correct, IMO.  Jack was not that good with the gun.  But remember that sticking to beans was fine with Ennis and not with Jack.  Jack probably tried to shoot a few Elk and missed. (Tired of you dumb***** missin...)  Ennis then probably went out of his way to shoot an Elk for Jack.

[EnnisTwist]

I always thought Ennis had to shot the elk since he was the one who COULD shot it (remember how Jack missed the cojote??) *g*

Love to read all your opinions though :D

This is correct, IMO.  Jack was not that good with the gun.  But remember that sticking to beans was fine with Ennis and not with Jack.  Jack probably tried to shoot a few Elk and missed. (Tired of you dumb***** missin...)  Ennis then probably went out of his way to shoot an Elk for Jack.

Ennis wasn't too keen on stickin with the beans either was he? Anyway, it's so sweet of him to want to (probably subconsciously) provide for Jack

[Patriot1]

I always thought Ennis had to shot the elk since he was the one who COULD shot it (remember how Jack missed the cojote??) *g*

Love to read all your opinions though :D

This is correct, IMO.  Jack was not that good with the gun.  But remember that sticking to beans was fine with Ennis and not with Jack.  Jack probably tried to shoot a few Elk and missed. (Tired of you dumb***** missin...)  Ennis then probably went out of his way to shoot an Elk for Jack.

Ennis wasn't too keen on stickin with the beans either was he? Anyway, it's so sweet of him to want to (probably subconsciously) provide for Jack

If he wasn't, then why did he say that he would stick with beans? To which Jack replied Well I won't.

[NoReins]

I reckon Ennis would have stuck with beans....just like he sticks with his life with Alma. He wasn't one to go chasing after something better, always just putting up with whatever life threw at him. Maybe he was forced to think like that when his folks were killed - no money for an education or a new truck (or even to fix the old one) so he had to just suck it up and make do with what he had.

But he definitely shot the elk because he wanted to do something sweet for Jack, whether it's as an act of friendship or the first sign of feelings for Jack is irrelevant. He did something nice for Jack because Jack had done something nice for him - listened to him, where no-one else ever had.

[tpe]

I reckon Ennis would have stuck with beans....just like he sticks with his life with Alma. He wasn't one to go chasing after something better, always just putting up with whatever life threw at him. Maybe he was forced to think like that when his folks were killed - no money for an education or a new truck (or even to fix the old one) so he had to just suck it up and make do with what he had.

But he definitely shot the elk because he wanted to do something sweet for Jack, whether it's as an act of friendship or the first sign of feelings for Jack is irrelevant. He did something nice for Jack because Jack had done something nice for him - listened to him, where no-one else ever had.

I do think there is a pattern of stoicism throughout his life -- and as NoReins had pointed out, a good example would be Ennis sticking to the marriage till the end for the sake of the childern (among other things.)   His willingness to stick to beans is certainly another example of his willingness to bear things out. As Patriot1 said, he vocalized this willingness to Jack.  NOt that he liked beans anymore than Jack -- but he was willing to live with it if it became expedient to do so.

In this light, it would indeed seem that Ennis shot the Elk for Jack's sake.

[welshwitch]

It's a macho thing to do, too - but mainly i think a sign that Ennis can break through prohibitions and boundaries, as he does in becoming involved with Jack. But this happens only on the mountain; away from there Ennis reverts to (stoic) type.

[EnnisTwist]

I always thought Ennis had to shot the elk since he was the one who COULD shot it (remember how Jack missed the cojote??) *g*

Love to read all your opinions though :D

This is correct, IMO.  Jack was not that good with the gun.  But remember that sticking to beans was fine with Ennis and not with Jack.  Jack probably tried to shoot a few Elk and missed. (Tired of you dumb***** missin...)  Ennis then probably went out of his way to shoot an Elk for Jack.

Ennis wasn't too keen on stickin with the beans either was he? Anyway, it's so sweet of him to want to (probably subconsciously) provide for Jack

If he wasn't, then why did he say that he would stick with beans? To which Jack replied Well I won't.

Coz Ennis said he was *sick of beans*. And I didn't say he wouldn't have stuck with beans just that he wasn't to keen on eating them. And it's not like Ennis needed much conviction to shot the elk either.

[NoReins]

That's the whole point, though....Ennis only said that to the Basque as a convenient answer....the truth (that Jack was sick of beans) would have sounded too odd and the Basque might have wondered why Ennis cared that Jack didn't want beans:

Jack said "No more beans" - Ennis said nothing but then didn't ask for beans when he handed over next week's list
Jack said they had to do something about the food situation - Ennis said he would stick with beans - Jack said "well, I won't"

As to the whole elk shooting incident, Jack had obviously already tried to shoot the elk a few times because when Ennis finally does shoot it he says "was tired of your dumbass missin'"...i.e. he shot the elk because Jack couldn't and because he knew that Jack wanted something other than beans to eat.

Remember, we also see Ennis eating beans later on (in the scene where Jack asks him if his brother and sister did right by him) and when he's eating them he's making little "mmmm" noises like he's actually enjoying them. Don't know how relevant that is, mind.

[welshwitch]

Shooting the elk was also perhaps the lesser of two evils in Ennis's mind - it didn't " belong" to anyone in the way that the sheep belonged to Aguirre.

Eating beans, of which he was sick, was a lesser evil too - Ennis is always prepared to do without rather than get into difficult situations.

[greenfrog]

Shooting the elk was also perhaps the lesser of two evils in Ennis's mind - it didn't " belong" to anyone in the way that the sheep belonged to Aguirre.

Eating beans, of which he was sick, was a lesser evil too - Ennis is always prepared to do without rather than get into difficult situations.

Sounds like Ennis to a tee.

[tpe]

Shooting the elk was also perhaps the lesser of two evils in Ennis's mind - it didn't " belong" to anyone in the way that the sheep belonged to Aguirre.

Eating beans, of which he was sick, was a lesser evil too - Ennis is always prepared to do without rather than get into difficult situations.

Sounds like Ennis to a tee.

I do agree.