Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: greenfrog on Sep 09, 2006, 08:04 PM
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Somebody asked this on the IMDB board for BBM and I thought I might bring the topic here.
This what the person, who is called Matthew78 asked . . .
"Jack sees one in Mexico when Ennis is emontionally unavailable so why doesn't Ennis ever go find a Male Prostitute and get some relief so to speak? They rarely see each other and Prostitutes are always around mainly in big cities though but Ennis could easily get some male attention for himself and maybe some friendly advice from another Gay man, he could explain his situation to the guy and ask him for advice or about their own personal experiences as fellow Gay or maybe Bi-Sexual men, it would give Ennis some help that he needed and sexual relief and he wouldnt have to be anywhere the Town he lived in either, unless Ennis was too uptight to visit one of them or afraid of being seen in public picking one up, Jack solves this probelm by going to Mexico but thats too far away and Ennis could always find the nearest big city wherever that is."
We probably already know the answer to this question, but I thought I'd post it anyway.
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Throughout the film we see that Ennis did not venture very far from the general area where he and Jack met. That and for economic reasons afforded Ennis few opportunities to encounter other gay men, much less the opportunity to acquire the services of a male prostitute. Ennis seemed to live a very private life and probably did not think of himself as gay. It's not likely he would have opened up to discussing this subject with another man until after he acknowledged what he felt for Jack.
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I also strongly doubt that Ennis would ever be able to be with another man.
It just wouldn't be the same as when he was with Jack. :\'(
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Keep in mind what was developing between the two of them was referred to as "this thing" by Ennis. I don't believe Ennis ever thought to look at another man other than Jack as a potential lover.
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I think Ennis compartmentalized what he had with Jack as " this thing", which in his mind had nothing to do with any other man.
and practically speaking I doubt there would have been any males accessuble to Ennis as the Mexican was to Jack - one of the major differences between them is how closely ennis clings to his roots and how eager Jack is to get away from his. Add in the fact that Jack had money and transport and ca certain ability to "loose" time on trips he presente as going to see his parents -Ennis doesn't have this kind of excuse.And of course rivertaon and the other places we see Ennis are small, the sort of places everyone knows everyone and gossips.While there appear to be no repercussions to the Mexcian interelude, Jack is killed 9 if he is) after he gets involved with Randall - there may be a causal connection. In other words it is safer if you're going to embark on such enterprises to keep them well away from home territory - remember Ennis's " way the hell out in the middle of nowhere" where there is no danger of identification or even of meeting anyone.
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Keep in mind what was developing between the two of them was referred to as "this thing" by Ennis. I don't believe Ennis ever thought to look at another man other than Jack as a potential lover.
IMO Ennis loved Jack way more than he ever loved anyone/anything...except maybe his girls. He didn't need the relief/sex whatever you want to call it that a prositute would give him. The times he had with Jack were enough for him. Also we have to remember he feared anyone finding out and ending up like Earl, I said it in a other post tonight but his Dad really screwed up his mind when he was 9 yrs old. Is there a thread in here (i bet there is) that talks about the love scene (chapter 9) with Alma when he flips her on her stomach....maybe this makes him think of Jack... just a thought and i hope that wasn't too crude. I'm not convinced Ennis knew/thought he was gay.
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Ennis was struggling all the time with himself and his sexual identity. He already had problems dealing with his love for Jack. The problems would have been magnified if he ever attempted anything with a male prostitute. It is highly unlikely that he would have been able to deal with the latter case.
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As Jack said, Ennis could "make it on a couple of high altitude f***s once or twice a year",(and presumably the countless times he masturbated thinking about Jack, as mentioned in the ss), he just didn't need sex in the way that Jack did, or maybe he just didn't see the point in having sex with anyone else knowing it would never be half as good as it was with Jack.Whatever the reasons, even if he did desperately need or want sex with another man, he wouldn't have done anything about it, even if he had the opportunity, he wouldn't even admit to Jack or to himself that he was gay, he would hardly admit it to a complete stranger.
I sometimes wonder if he might have visited a female prostitute after that first summer together, because of the line in the Motel scene in the ss where he says he likes doing it with "women", when the only woman we know he's been with is Alma. Maybe he wanted to prove to himself that he wasn't gay, and the relationship with Jack was indeed a "one shot thing", before he married Alma ???
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Ennis didn't need sex. He needed Jack. ;)
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Ennis didn't see himself as gay and when he had sex with Jack somehow rationalized it to himself. But if he'd gone looking for other men, and even paid them for sex, he'd have had to look at himself in a differnt way, and couldn't.
Or if you like you can say he was a puirist - Jack or nothing - while Jack was a realist - Ennis, but if I can't have him I'll settle for something I know to be less but better than nothing.
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For Ennis, it seems like release could be obtained through his relationships with Alma. Later, I would assume that he had sexual relations with Cassie. Did he have sex often? With Alma, Ennis seemd to be wanting sex until the very end of the marriage. I would put out the opinion that Ennis sought some release in a form he knew would be acceptable to the society he lived in -- sexaul relations with the women in his life. I am sure he wanted to have sex with Jack as much as Jack wanted it, but his internal fears go the better of him...
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I tend to assume that he also ttried to pretend - fantasized doesn;t seem a very Ennis word - that Alma was Jack, on the grounds that to a certain degree all cats are grey at night, but it didn't really work. I'm not so sure about Cassie or the " women" he refers to in the ss - I tend to see Ennis as a one man man.
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There is certainly a difference between the mechanics of sexual desire in Jack and Ennis. But I do think the core need is very much the same. Ennis was too stoic. Jack was too passionate.
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Ennis didn't need sex. He needed Jack. ;)
I agree, this sums up, IMHO, what Ennis thought. What was so amazing about Ennis' feelings were that they were directed at Jack, and probably Jack alone. Having sex with a man would always be "wrong" for Ennis, without therapy sessions. Jack provided Ennis not only a sexual release, but perhaps an excuse to sin, and a reason to love. This wouldn't work with anyone else. Ennis basically forged a same sex commitment to Jack Twist, and only Jack Twist.
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Ennis didn't need sex. He needed Jack. ;)
I think that sums it up perfectly :\'(
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Yes, this is how I see it. Ennis didn't exactly see Jack as a man he was in love with. He was Jack. Another man would have been a man, and Ennis would have had to see himself as queer if he's been involved with another man. for him Jack was the once-in-a-lifetime, one and only one and there would be no point in trying to replicate his experiences with Jack with anyone else.
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Ennis didn't need sex. He needed Jack. ;)
I agree, this sums up, IMHO, what Ennis thought. What was so amazing about Ennis' feelings were that they were directed at Jack, and probably Jack alone. Having sex with a man would always be "wrong" for Ennis, without therapy sessions. Jack provided Ennis not only a sexual release, but perhaps an excuse to sin, and a reason to love. This wouldn't work with anyone else. Ennis basically forged a same sex commitment to Jack Twist, and only Jack Twist.
Welcome to ennisjack.com Rick65.
I agree with you on this. Ennis couldn't have gone with other men, he wasn't queer. What he and Jack had was a pleasant aberration with Jack only...as long as nobody else knew.
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Ennis didn't need sex. He needed Jack. ;)
I agree, this sums up, IMHO, what Ennis thought. What was so amazing about Ennis' feelings were that they were directed at Jack, and probably Jack alone. Having sex with a man would always be "wrong" for Ennis, without therapy sessions. Jack provided Ennis not only a sexual release, but perhaps an excuse to sin, and a reason to love. This wouldn't work with anyone else. Ennis basically forged a same sex commitment to Jack Twist, and only Jack Twist.
Welcome to ennisjack.com Rick65.
I agree with you on this. Ennis couldn't have gone with other men, he wasn't queer. What he and Jack had was a pleasant aberration with Jack only...as long as nobody else knew.
Ennis is so complex. For me, his not having sex with other men was more a manifestation of his faithfulness to Jack. By his own rules, sex with women was not cheating -- but sex with other men was cheating.
Did Ennis completely forsake sex with anyone after Jack died? I suspect that he does.
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Yes, almost certainly, and i think with no-one other than Jack before Jack's death - I don't buy into the Cassie thing. Ennis isn't a sensualist and can evidently do without, no, thinks it's a matter of pride to do without, things; sex is just one thing he can stand being without (and Jack can't - he goes off and tries to fix it).
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Yes, almost certainly, and i think with no-one other than Jack before Jack's death - I don't buy into the Cassie thing. Ennis isn't a sensualist and can evidently do without, no, thinks it's a matter of pride to do without, things; sex is just one thing he can stand being without (and Jack can't - he goes off and tries to fix it).
This will put his faithfulness on a heroic level. Perhaps it is so, but Cassie would have been sorely pressed under such a monastic regimen...
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Yes, almost certainly, and i think with no-one other than Jack before Jack's death - I don't buy into the Cassie thing. Ennis isn't a sensualist and can evidently do without, no, thinks it's a matter of pride to do without, things; sex is just one thing he can stand being without (and Jack can't - he goes off and tries to fix it).
Do you all think Ennis consummated his relationship with Cassie at some point? :s)
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I though WW was saying that she believed that Cassie and Ennis never had sex...
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Ennis is so complex. For me, his not having sex with other men was more a manifestation of his faithfulness to Jack. By his own rules, sex with women was not cheating -- but sex with other men was cheating.
Did Ennis completely forsake sex with anyone after Jack died? I suspect that he does.
I agree, tpe, (the silent ones are the most complex) that he is faithful to Jack, but not only because of his commitment (Ennis is a staunch friend), but maybe also 'cuz he knows that noone will ever compare. Why get disappointed with an incomplete affair, when there is someone you've known for a really long time, who still satisfies you sexually, emotionally and psychologically. JackandEnnis were a complete package. Anyone else, for either of them, was like a crossword puzzle piece that didn't fit.
I think he may have had tried later on to be sexually with someone, but it wouldn't mean anything. Just a change from his solitary release.
His memories are probably strong enough to hold him for a long time.
:^^)
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I agree Ricky. Jack and Ennis were perfect for each other. The only thing that was holding them back was Ennis's fears, which he just couldn't get rid of. :\'(
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I agree Ricky. Jack and Ennis were perfect for each other. The only thing that was holding them back was Ennis's fears, which he just couldn't get rid of. :\'(
Hmmmmm....did he ever try to get rid of his fear?
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Ennis is so complex. For me, his not having sex with other men was more a manifestation of his faithfulness to Jack. By his own rules, sex with women was not cheating -- but sex with other men was cheating.
Did Ennis completely forsake sex with anyone after Jack died? I suspect that he does.
I agree with you on all the above points tpe. IMO I don't think that Ennis would ever have sex with another man after Jack died. I think he was faithful to Jack with other men while Jack was alive and I think he would be after Jack died. I think Jack would be the only man Ennis ever loved, and he would in his mind stay true to that till he died. I don't think he would want to give another man something that he now knows he denied giving Jack, that being the whole of himself. I think that even if he felt attraction for another man, even casual sex would seem like a betrayal to Jack, that's if Ennis would ever even consider that. Faithfulness to Jack's memory is the only way now that Ennis can show his love for Jack. Some may think by accepting himself as gay and becoming happy may be how he could show his love for Jack by letting himself be changed, but I'm not one of them.
This is only my opinion, but I think that even though Ennis may have changed inside, and some may think that that was Jack's final gift to Ennis, I just don't see Ennis in a relationship with someone else. :\'(
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I agree, tpe, (the silent ones are the most complex) that he is faithful to Jack, but not only because of his commitment (Ennis is a staunch friend), but maybe also 'cuz he knows that noone will ever compare. Why get disappointed with an incomplete affair, when there is someone you've known for a really long time, who still satisfies you sexually, emotionally and psychologically. JackandEnnis were a complete package. Anyone else, for either of them, was like a crossword puzzle piece that didn't fit.
I think he may have had tried later on to be sexually with someone, but it wouldn't mean anything. Just a change from his solitary release.
His memories are probably strong enough to hold him for a long time.
:^^)
You do hit the nail on the head: Ennis was able to hold back because he knew that Jack was the one. He was secure in this knowledge even though he was far from secure about his own identity. And the level of commitment was certainly sexual, emotional, and psychological.
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For what it's worth, no, I don't think he had a sexual relationship with Cassie, though I'm sure she wanted one.That's why i think he abandons her, which is what she doesnl't understand. She can't see that she's done anything to drive him away; Ennis gets involved by her making the first move then realizes the implications. She's not Jack and he doesn't want her as he wants Jack. As I said elsewhere, Ennis is a purist - why would he desecrate his memories of Jack by sex with Cassie?
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According to the movie Ennis does admit to a sexual relationship with Cassie to Jack. While they are drinking by the lake during their final trip together, Ennis tells Jack that he's been "putting the blocks" to a cute little waitress in Riverton. His description of their relationship does lead one to believe that his heart is not committed to her.
In my opinion, Ennis's heart was fully committed to Jack. He may not have been able to articulate or admit that fact, but it was true nonetheless. No amount of loving and understanding from a woman or the availability of a male prostitute could have filled such an important void in his life. Ennis was truly happy and content with Jack and Jack only.
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According to the movie Ennis does admit to a sexual relationship with Cassie to Jack. While they are drinking by the lake during their final trip together, Ennis tells Jack that he's been "putting the blocks" to a cute little waitress in Riverton. His description of their relationship does lead one to believe that his heart is not committed to her.
In my opinion, Ennis's heart was fully committed to Jack. He may not have been able to articulate or admit that fact, but it was true nonetheless. No amount of loving and understanding from a woman or the availability of a male prostitute could have filled such an important void in his life. Ennis was truly happy and content with Jack and Jack only.
The sexual life of Ennis del Mar proper to Jack's death is quite curious, no?
Although I lean to the belief that Ennis had something going with Cassie, don't you think that "putting the blocks" could mean not having initimate sexual contact with Cassie?
One thing we see to all agree on: Ennis's heart was commited to Jack.
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Although I lean to the belief that Ennis had something going with Cassie, don't you think that "putting the blocks" could mean not having intimate sexual contact with Cassie?
One thing we see to all agree on: Ennis's heart was commited to Jack.
At the risk of being *o) I will say that based on viewing the film and Ennis's tone while making the statement, I tend to believe that "putting the blocks" implied the existence of a sexual relationship between the two. Cassie was attracted to Ennis from the start. My instincts tell me that she was not at a point in her life where she was saving herself for marriage. That's not to imply she was a "fast" woman either. I just think Cassie had no problem with that type of intimacy as long as she felt the relationship was headed somewhere. Unfortunately for Cassie, Ennis was not able to make room in his heart for her, thus resulting in a dead end and no explanation (for Cassie) as to why.
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I construed "putting the blacks to" as something like "making a move on", not necessarily getting anywhere, just going through the preliminaries, so to speak. It all depends on the meaning of the idiom, I guess.
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Unfortunately for Cassie, Ennis was not able to make room in his heart for her, thus resulting in a dead end and no explanation (for Cassie) as to why.
You said it! CSC. Although I'm sure Ennis never meant to hurt Cassie, he seemed to be wavering with respect to her. There was no "room in his heart" left for her, but he could not admit it to himself until after Jack and Ennis' last time together. In a sense, you may postulate that when he breaks up with Cassie at the diner, he had already decided that Jack was the one, and there was and would be no other. Hence the topic of this thread.
"Girls don't fall in love with fun," Cassie says. Ennis did not need to be told that. He had fallen for Jack not out of fun; but out of happiness, compassion, understanding, etc.
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Great post Ricky ^f^
I agree in particular with the line the last line of your post.
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Great post Ricky ^f^
I agree in particular with the line the last line of your post.
It is indeed true for everyone.
A fling is for fun. Love is for the long haul.
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Great post Ricky ^f^
I agree in particular with the line the last line of your post.
It is indeed true for everyone.
A fling is for fun. Love is for the long haul.
True . . . And Ennis and Jack were definately no fling. :\'(
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I think people who question Jack's commitment (because of his trysts with male prostitutes) misunderstand the anguish that brought about these infidelities.
For Ennis, it was the opposite: his fidelity coexisted side by side with repression of his deepest feelings. To say that his fears of being found out got the better of him is also to misunderstand his love for Jack.
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According to the American Underworld Dictionary, the first definition of the slang phrase "put the blocks to" is "to be carnally intimate with." Here's a link:
http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=535554
Yes, I think Ennis and Cassie were sexual partners. I think Lee wants us to see Ennis as rather passive in the relationship. Cassie takes charge in their first meeting, making Ennis give her a footrub (surely a very erotic, symbolic gesture) and making him dance (a very common symbol for sex). So I think Cassie wanted sex--and more, she wanted love and marriage--and she got the sex part of her wish.
IIRC, in the short story, the wine with which Ennis and Junior toast is leftover from the last tryst between Ennis and Cassie. Ennis and Cassie drinking cheap wine together in that trailer... what else are they going to do after that but have sex?
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OK, so Jack tried to pick up Jimbo, then went to Mexico, then presumably responded to Randall's overtures; meanwhile Ennis was having sex with Cassie in the trailer, his wife having divorced him. In other words, although once Alma was gone and Jack's marriage to Lureen had become something, he says, that they could do on the phone both of them could have been physically faithful to the other, neither did. I suppose I dislike the idea so much because I like the thought of them realising the other one is the only one and since they can't be together permanently at least not finding room for anyone else when they can't be together. Unrealisitc, I suppose - certainly unromantic.
You could read all this as each attempting to find a more satisfactory relationship but failing no matter what they try, perhaps, and so showing the importance of what they have together - but this feels a bit desperate.
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Yes, welshwitch, sorry about those romantic illusions, but men tend to have sex when it's offered them. I think the standard way to "justify" the sex E and J are having with other people would be "it doesn't mean anything."
And now back to the literary and abstract: Ennis's yielding physically to Cassie is yet another time in the movie that E and J seem to be living parallel lives: it is very reminiscent of Jack's yielding to Lureen.
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Are you going down the " predatory women, poor men, just their victims" route here? :)
You're right - we don't know how Alma and Ennis got involved but Lureen and Cassie make all the running, presumably because by the time they come into Jack's and Ennis's lives there is no doubt about who the boys are committed to.
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Interesting exchange here, edgar and welshwitch. I do think all the other relationships for both of them acted as surrogates.
As to Jack acting on his carnal impulses with other men, I would again tend to say that there is a difference in temperament between him and Ennis. Did Jack ever try to find an outlet for his sexual needs in the guise of another woman? He claimed to have had something going with his ranch neighbor's wife -- although I think this was pure subterfuge (to hide his true relationship with Randall), I have wondered whether he would have ever tried to keep his sexual needs satisfied by the implicitly "accepted" way: relations with other women. I suspect that he didn't. I suspect he had long understood and accepted his own identity.
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Which is why he only looks to men when Ennis is unavailable and why Ennis turns to another woman after Alma. Ennis never accepts what he feels for Jack because his primary sense of himlelf is, as he says on the mountain, "I ain't queer". As long as Jack is the only man he's involved with, Jack can be seen as some sort of one-off; if there was any other man, and certainly one he'd be paying, that would make him queer ( and desperate too). I sometimes wonder if all the comments about the waitress aren;t some sort of typical male boasting to demonstrate hpw macho he is, while Jack's tale about the ranch-formen's wife is the truth except that he changes the sex of the other person involved, both to parallel Ennis's story and because he doesn't want to seem a promiscuous gay, or indeed any sort of gay, to Ennis.
In fact there is something very strange going on in the way that Ennis compartmentalizes the relationship with Jack, and Jack sees what he's doing and goes along with it.
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Which is why he only looks to men when Ennis is unavailable and why Ennis turns to another woman after Alma. Ennis never accepts what he feels for Jack because his primary sense of himlelf is, as he says on the mountain, "I ain't queer". As long as Jack is the only man he's involved with, Jack can be seen as some sort of one-off; if there was any other man, and certainly one he'd be paying, that would make him queer ( and desperate too). I sometimes wonder if all the comments about the waitress aren;t some sort of typical male boasting to demonstrate hpw macho he is, while Jack's tale about the ranch-formen's wife is the truth except that he changes the sex of the other person involved, both to parallel Ennis's story and because he doesn't want to seem a promiscuous gay, or indeed any sort of gay, to Ennis.
In fact there is something very strange going on in the way that Ennis compartmentalizes the relationship with Jack, and Jack sees what he's doing and goes along with it.
I think Jack understands that he can not confront Ennis with the reality of the situation. It's really sad when you understand how much Jack is willing to sacrifice for the "couple of high altitude f**ks once or twice a year". His love is so complete. The more I understand it the more I am blown away by it. It is what I dreamed of, longed for, for so long, and what I never found.
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Yes it is very sad. As WW said he compartmentalizes and IMO, he is only "queer" with Jack- it's "this thing". Sadly it is Jack's death that makes him see the truth.
I think people who question Jack's commitment (because of his trysts with male prostitutes) misunderstand the anguish that brought about these infidelities.
For Ennis, it was the opposite: his fidelity coexisted side by side with repression of his deepest feelings. To say that his fears of being found out got the better of him is also to misunderstand his love for Jack.
Exactly- I don't think Jack is sitting back smugly saying "look at all of the men I've bedded". My opinion of the prostitute scene is that this is what he is reduced to- he can't have what (who) he wants so he has to substitute and make do. He doesn't look happy or proud to be there.
Well said on both counts tpe. :)
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Yes it is very sad. As WW said he compartmentalizes and IMO, he is only "queer" with Jack- it's "this thing". Sadly it is Jack's death that makes him see the truth.
I think people who question Jack's commitment (because of his trysts with male prostitutes) misunderstand the anguish that brought about these infidelities.
For Ennis, it was the opposite: his fidelity coexisted side by side with repression of his deepest feelings. To say that his fears of being found out got the better of him is also to misunderstand his love for Jack.
Exactly- I don't think Jack is sitting back smugly saying "look at all of the men I've bedded". My opinion of the prostitute scene is that this is what he is reduced to- he can't have what (who) he wants so he has to substitute and make do. He doesn't look happy or proud to be there.
Well said on both counts tpe. :)
Exactly. Jack is not proud to be where he is but like he says.................."can't live on a couple of high altitude fucks once or twoice a year."
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I think Jack understands that he can not confront Ennis with the reality of the situation. It's really sad when you understand how much Jack is willing to sacrifice for the "couple of high altitude f**ks once or twice a year". His love is so complete. The more I understand it the more I am blown away by it. It is what I dreamed of, longed for, for so long, and what I never found.
I don't think Jack's love is complete. In order for it to be complete, it needs to be returned and it was not. So, Jack never found it either BBBoy. :\'(
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I think Jack understands that he can not confront Ennis with the reality of the situation. It's really sad when you understand how much Jack is willing to sacrifice for the "couple of high altitude f**ks once or twice a year". His love is so complete. The more I understand it the more I am blown away by it. It is what I dreamed of, longed for, for so long, and what I never found.
I also think is is a great tragedy that Jack never realized how much Ennis really loved him. He died not knowing that, although I would want to think that his last thoughts were about Ennis...
Had he really known the full extent of Ennis's love for him -- would have this sustained Jack? Would he have even bothered with male prostitutes? Maybe. But Ennis increasingly keeping his distance may have made it too difficult for Jack to stay faithful, even if he knew that the love was unchanging.
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Exactly- I don't think Jack is sitting back smugly saying "look at all of the men I've bedded". My opinion of the prostitute scene is that this is what he is reduced to- he can't have what (who) he wants so he has to substitute and make do. He doesn't look happy or proud to be there.
Jack was reduced to eating the crumbs -- and he knew it. He probably hated it -- because it was a constant reminder to him that Ennis remained just beyond his grasp in his vision of a sweet life.
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I think Jack understands that he can not confront Ennis with the reality of the situation. It's really sad when you understand how much Jack is willing to sacrifice for the "couple of high altitude f**ks once or twice a year". His love is so complete. The more I understand it the more I am blown away by it. It is what I dreamed of, longed for, for so long, and what I never found.
I don't think Jack's love is complete. In order for it to be complete, it needs to be returned and it was not. So, Jack never found it either BBBoy. :\'(
In this sense, yes, it remained incomplete.
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Exactly- I don't think Jack is sitting back smugly saying "look at all of the men I've bedded". My opinion of the prostitute scene is that this is what he is reduced to- he can't have what (who) he wants so he has to substitute and make do. He doesn't look happy or proud to be there.
Jack was reduced to eating the crumbs -- and he knew it. He probably hated it -- because it was a constant reminder to him that Ennis remained just beyond his grasp in his vision of a sweet life.
And that know matter how much he tried, Ennis would never settle down with him into this life he (Jack) invisoned for them.
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If Ennis preferred women sexually more than he did men, then that was a sign of how special Jack was to Ennis. It would also go a long way at explaining why Ennis never bothered with male prostitutes -- Jack may have been the only man he ever loved.
Still, even if Ennis did prefer men over women, his fear and early childhood trauma would also explain his eschewing male prostitutes -- like many gay men who are in denial, he would have made a conscious effort not to address or internally acknowledge his true sexual needs and take exception with those he truly loved and bonded with (in this case, Jack).
Either way, we can come up with a reason of why Ennis behaved the way he did.
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And practically speaking, even if Ennis had been inclined to b e as reckless as Jack, how many opportunities would there have been in Riverton, which makes a one-horse town look like a metropolis?
Part of Ennis's problem is that he's a country/small-town boy with narrow horizins - what Jack reperesents is a broadening of those horizons to a point where Ennis feels in severe danger of falling off the rim of the world.
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And practically speaking, even if Ennis had been inclined to b e as reckless as Jack, how many opportunities would there have been in Riverton, which makes a one-horse town look like a metropolis?
Part of Ennis's problem is that he's a country/small-town boy with narrow horizins - what Jack reperesents is a broadening of those horizons to a point where Ennis feels in severe danger of falling off the rim of the world.
I'm quoting your post, Welshwitch, because it does underline the insecurity that Ennis feels. He even has trouble moving to town when Alma asks about that place over the laundromat (the film, not the story). Part of Ennis character is to stick around, "you's gotta stand it."
It is as if he fears change, is scared of trying new things, and would rather not attempt anything different. Even if Jack plays a part in any transition, Ennis' fear has been so engraved into his being, that the apprehension makes him stop and wonder how they will overcome the adversities.
I think many of us can relate to this common stumbling block, it's all too human. I, myself, many times do not complete or undertake a task, even if necessary, for fear. "I'll tell you what."
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I'm quoting your post, Welshwitch, because it does underline the insecurity that Ennis feels. He even has trouble moving to town when Alma asks about that place over the laundromat (the film, not the story). Part of Ennis character is to stick around, "you's gotta stand it."
It is as if he fears change, is scared of trying new things, and would rather not attempt anything different. Even if Jack plays a part in any transition, Ennis' fear has been so engraved into his being, that the apprehension makes him stop and wonder how they will overcome the adversities.
I think many of us can relate to this common stumbling block, it's all too human. I, myself, many times do not complete or undertake a task, even if necessary, for fear. "I'll tell you what."
You may have just explained a large part of the core of Ennis's personality...fear, apprehension, "gotta stand it." These factors have played so much in a number of our lives over the years. It certainly explains why Ennis didn't explore what may or may not have been a deep desire. One thing is for sure...his relationship with Jack did make sense to him even though is was something that he feared.
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If Ennis preferred women sexually more than he did men, then that was a sign of how special Jack was to Ennis. It would also go a long way at explaining why Ennis never bothered with male prostitutes -- Jack may have been the only man he ever loved.
Still, even if Ennis did prefer men over women, his fear and early childhood trauma would also explain his eschewing male prostitutes -- like many gay men who are in denial, he would have made a conscious effort not to address or internally acknowledge his true sexual needs and take exception with those he truly loved and bonded with (in this case, Jack).
Either way, we can come up with a reason of why Ennis behaved the way he did.
I'm wonderin how many hustlers there are in Wyoming. Not many, I'd imagine, and Ennis's personalilty would never have led him too one. I like to think of myself as rather sophisticated, but I would never have or would turn to a hustler, no matter how horny I was. And friends, I've had plenty of opportunity! ;)
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Somehow I can't see Ennis going to San Fran with a flower in his hair ( or without) ....Ennis is hemmed in by his wne concept of what he is, unlike Jack, who wants to be something and somewhere else. Ennis doesn;t entertain possibilities - I doubt if he even fantasizes - Jack does. But enns also believes that you have to put up with thiongs, so when Jack's not there he does without him, and without sex after the divorce. Jack, on the other hand, wants to change things if he doesn't like them the way they are - he's the once who constantly bitches on Brokeback.
But I don't think going to Mrexico and picking up a male prostiture was an exploration of what it might be like if he had sex he's paid for - mor the result of deperation and despair, I'd say. The difference is that Jack can conceive of doing that and ennis never would.
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But I don't think going to Mrexico and picking up a male prostiture was an exploration of what it might be like if he had sex he's paid for - mor the result of deperation and despair, I'd say. The difference is that Jack can conceive of doing that and ennis never would.
I completely agree with you about this.
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If Ennis preferred women sexually more than he did men, then that was a sign of how special Jack was to Ennis. It would also go a long way at explaining why Ennis never bothered with male prostitutes -- Jack may have been the only man he ever loved.
Still, even if Ennis did prefer men over women, his fear and early childhood trauma would also explain his eschewing male prostitutes -- like many gay men who are in denial, he would have made a conscious effort not to address or internally acknowledge his true sexual needs and take exception with those he truly loved and bonded with (in this case, Jack).
Either way, we can come up with a reason of why Ennis behaved the way he did.
I'm wonderin how many hustlers there are in Wyoming. Not many, I'd imagine, and Ennis's personalilty would never have led him too one. I like to think of myself as rather sophisticated, but I would never have or would turn to a hustler, no matter how horny I was. And friends, I've had plenty of opportunity! ;)
This is interesting. I have met 2 types of gays in this regard. My friend Robert. like you, would NEVER have considered paying for sex and having sex with huslers (not that he needed any action, especially when he was younger -- he was quite stunning.) But another mutuial friend, Frank, never though that much of it -- he considered hustlers as divertisments, and had no particular qualms about it (though he was discreet).
As far as the availabilty of hustlers in Wyoming, I can imagine that it is much rarer. Still, I suspect that sex for pay can always be had: it simply depends on a stipulated or unsaid contract and a certain degree of discreetness. But I fully expect this to be trickier ouside of the big cities, and it probably would have involved some risk. Hence, Ennis probably was not in the path of temptation as far as this aspect is concerned.
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I don't think Ennis would ever go seeking out another man. It took him long enough to trust Jack, and trust is essential with Ennis. But.... IF, and that's a big if , Ennis was presented with the chance to cheat discreetly like Jack did and he was positive he would'nt be found out, with maybe a couple drinks in him, maybe. But I doubt it.
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I don't think Ennis would ever go seeking out another man. It took him long enough to trust Jack, and trust is essential with Ennis. But.... IF, and that's a big if , Ennis was presented with the chance to cheat discreetly like Jack did and he was positive he would'nt be found out, with maybe a couple drinks in him, maybe. But I doubt it.
Agreed. Ennis had too many issues and it would have been quite difficult for him to seek out males prostitutwes, IMO.
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IMO2. Ennis isn't the sort to go cruising round "gay" areas - he's too busy not fixing it but standing it.
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IMO2. Ennis isn't the sort to go cruising round "gay" areas - he's too busy not fixing it but standing it.
Very true.
And Ennis doesn't really seem like he would go "cruising" for sex (regardless of gender).
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IMO2. Ennis isn't the sort to go cruising round "gay" areas - he's too busy not fixing it but standing it.
Very true.
And Ennis doesn't really seem like he would go "cruising" for sex (regardless of gender).
Did Ennis just bear the sexual tension in Jack's absence. The words exchanged in the last meeting seem to indicate that this is so. Did he have sex at all in the years after the divorce and before the last meeting? I know the issue of his relationship with Cassie has been discussed elsewhere, but my impression is that even if he id have sexual relations with Cassie, it could not have been that frequent, given the relative shortness of their time together...
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It's quite possible to want/need someone sexually, but not feel any desire for anyone else. I reckon when Jack wasn't there Ennis just got on with living his life and din'think about it. He was perhaps much less highly sexual than Jack..
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It's quite possible to want/need someone sexually, but not feel any desire for anyone else. I reckon when Jack wasn't there Ennis just got on with living his life and din'think about it. He was perhaps much less highly sexual than Jack..
I would say that this is true.
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It's quite possible to want/need someone sexually, but not feel any desire for anyone else. I reckon when Jack wasn't there Ennis just got on with living his life and din'think about it. He was perhaps much less highly sexual than Jack..
This is so true. I want/need Tom Brady but I certainly don't want or need the entire New England Patriots football team. :8
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Like I fancy Jake, but wouldn't cross the road for Heath! *o)
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It's quite possible to want/need someone sexually, but not feel any desire for anyone else. I reckon when Jack wasn't there Ennis just got on with living his life and din'think about it. He was perhaps much less highly sexual than Jack..
This is so true. I want/need Tom Brady but I certainly don't want or need the entire New England Patriots football team. :8
Humorous example, yet so true.
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Ennis may not have been as highly sexual as Jack but during those long seperations I'm sure he made use of Mrs. thumb and her four daughters while visions of Jack Twist danced in his head! While Jack was out trick or treating Ennis was rolling his own. ...Jack lovers please don't hurt me!! OK, lemme have it with both barrels. Awww just kiddin. of the two Ennis is my boo.
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Well that activity was mentioned in the short story. ;)
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Considering their age and social position, it would be surprising to me for Ennis to engage a hustler. Ennis had virtually iron self control as did Jack. But Jack saw ways of getting around it that did not bother his conscience. Ennis was quite rigid and uncompromising with his perception of self control. Recall when leaving Brokeback and Jack,Ennis went over to the side in the shadows and had a compulsive case of the dry heaves. He almost could not stand it but he did and regained his composure when another cowboy approached him probably out of concern that Ennis was seriously ill. When Ennis lashed out violently and with much profanity, the stranger cowboy backed off. In the short story Ennis makes it clear it was a mistake to let Jack just leave and that Ennis should have held on to Jack. These two characters reflect a system of values that is long lost to most Americans of this age and time. I rather doubt it can be recovered even though many of our conservative and evangelical friends would like for it to be re-imposed by a church/state estsblishment. Not bloody likely, I hope.
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Well said JBron. The times have changed and the Ennis of then could not be the Ennis of now I hope, but maybe that is just wishful thinking on my part. :-\\
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Perhaps why this story moves many is because there are still too many Ennises and too many Jacks.
But, yes, I think this type of gratification would not have appealed to Ennis.
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I appreciate your positive posts to my feeble musings. I tend to think there are a great many Ennis's and Jack's still around in the U.S.A. They like me are ageing and the numbers are decreasing. My youngest son behaves like a 17th Century Puritan at times and so do I. But th difference is I know it and when he exhibits that sort of behavior, I call it to his attention. Of all the characteristics that identify an American, this Puritanism sticksout as distinctive. It is not a pretty sight but it is real and both Ennis and Jack had it.
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I think it's simple. He wasn't the sort to buy sex. He was also a one man man, wouldn't even consider going with anyone but Jack. He hated himself not for loving, but for having a sexual romantic love with a man in the first place---can you see such a guy going to a whore?? I can't.
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Also, in reply to some of the posts above, in 2006 going to a male ho indicates, IMO, that the person doing so simply doesn't want a relationship or is too lazy to find a one night stand. There is NO shortage of THAT anywhere. No reason to do so at all, except for being gross. IMO
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There's also the fact that sex with a prostiute is bought and therefore doesn't imply any sort of commitment, so it's not a threat to the emotions invested in existing relationships either, unless you regard the physical as the most vitally important aspect of any relationship.
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I feel it;s a matter self worthiness on one hand and wiilpower on the other. Despite his upbringing I believe Ennis still had some selfworth. With Jack and Ennis it was much more than sex.
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I appreciate your positive posts to my feeble musings. I tend to think there are a great many Ennis's and Jack's still around in the U.S.A. They like me are ageing and the numbers are decreasing. My youngest son behaves like a 17th Century Puritan at times and so do I. But th difference is I know it and when he exhibits that sort of behavior, I call it to his attention. Of all the characteristics that identify an American, this Puritanism sticksout as distinctive. It is not a pretty sight but it is real and both Ennis and Jack had it.
I do agree. The puritanical streak in this country is still very pronounced in many areas.
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There's also the fact that sex with a prostiute is bought and therefore doesn't imply any sort of commitment, so it's not a threat to the emotions invested in existing relationships either, unless you regard the physical as the most vitally important aspect of any relationship.
Yes. Although in Ennis's mind, he was already commited to Jack (as far as male partners were concerned, at least). I am sure Ennis considered sex with prostitutes as a form of cheating.
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I feel it;s a matter self worthiness on one hand and wiilpower on the other. Despite his upbringing I believe Ennis still had some selfworth. With Jack and Ennis it was much more than sex.
I do think Ennis had his own sense of dignity. And I do think that getting prostitutes conflicted with this. Even Jack probably shared this, but was driven to desperation.
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Jack is much more reactive, to misuse a chemical term, than Ennis. He went off to Mexico in despair as an instant reaction to Ennis's rejection - it's written on his face as he walks down that alley.
Perhaps he wouldn;t have done it in other circumstances.
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There was also a look of resolve in his face. It was as if he was steeling himself for what was to come...
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Yep, and anger and desperation over something he did'nt really want to do, but felt forced to do after being rejected.
He would've much preferred to be with Ennis.
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I believe that people sometimes do things in order to forget. I do think Jack at this point wanted to forget.
With Ennis, I am sure it was not a question of having any need for gratification with other men. It was solely with Jack that he found contentment.
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I believe that people sometimes do things in order to forget. I do think Jack at this point wanted to forget.
With Ennis, I am sure it was not a question of having any need for gratification with other men. It was solely with Jack that he found contentment.
I agree, for the most part. Jack had been denied once again an entry to life with Ennis. He was seeking a way to "forget" (like you said tpe), but he never found it through meaningless sex with a stranger. There wasn't any way around it. Jack wanted and needed Ennis for satisfaction, which Jack realized. I'm sure this led years later to this revelation being so affirmative, "I wish I knew how to quit you."
Ennis had other demons in his closet, not surrounding sex per se, but tripping him up when he thought of being with the only man he wanted to love.
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Ennis had other demons in his closet, not surrounding sex per se, but tripping him up when he thought of being with the only man he wanted to love.
This is so true. Ennis had a lot of things to contend with internally -- things that went much deeper than anthing associated with simple sexual gratification.
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I just don't equate not using male prostitutes as a form of puritanism. If one wanted sex, there is no shortage of gay sex. You can get it in an urban area simply by walking out the door. If Ennis had wanted gay sex in 1963 even in Wyoming he could have found it.
I assume that if one is going to a male hustler, all one wants is sex. Certainly no relationship possibilities there! Ennis wanted gay sex with JACK, not gay sex for the sake of gay sex.
Besides, he hated himself not for loving jack, but for having a SEXUAL LOVE with jack, big difference there. There was no possibility for such a man to pay for sex. If he had i cannot see any emotional benefit whatsoever. i see the opposite.
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Yep, I totally agree, If Ennis had cheated with a prostitute he'd be so racked with guilt about it that the next time he saw Jack, He'd be a nervous "guilty wreck to the point of giving himself away. Jack would know something was up and question his behavior. Ennis's worst nightmare. Besides Ennis was ok with the status quo.
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I do think he would have been racked with guilt had he sought this recourse. For Ennis, it was a matter of being faithful to Jack. I think he would have considered this an act of unfaithfulness.
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X ennis the only man of his heart was Jack :c)