Topic: Why didn't Ennis visit a Male Prostitute like Jack did?

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

Although I lean to the belief that Ennis had something going with Cassie, don't you think that "putting the blocks" could mean not having intimate sexual contact with Cassie?

One thing we see to all agree on: Ennis's heart was commited to Jack.

At the risk of being  I will say that based on viewing the film and Ennis's tone while making the statement, I tend to believe that "putting the blocks" implied the existence of a sexual relationship between the two. Cassie was attracted to Ennis from the start. My instincts tell me that she was not at a point in her life where she was saving herself for marriage.  That's not to imply she was a "fast" woman either. I just think Cassie had no problem with that type of intimacy as long as she felt the relationship was headed somewhere. Unfortunately for Cassie, Ennis was not able to make room in his heart for her, thus resulting in a dead end and no explanation (for Cassie) as to why.

[welshwitch]

I construed "putting the blacks to" as something like "making a move on", not necessarily getting anywhere, just going through the preliminaries, so to speak. It all depends on the meaning of the idiom, I guess.

[rick65]

Unfortunately for Cassie, Ennis was not able to make room in his heart for her, thus resulting in a dead end and no explanation (for Cassie) as to why.

You said it! CSC. Although I'm sure Ennis never meant to hurt Cassie, he seemed to be wavering with respect to her. There was no "room in his heart" left for her, but he could not admit it to himself until after Jack and Ennis' last time together. In a sense, you may postulate that when he breaks up with Cassie at the diner, he had already decided that Jack was the one, and there was and would be no other. Hence the topic of this thread.
"Girls don't fall in love with fun," Cassie says. Ennis did not need to be told that. He had fallen for Jack not out of fun; but out of happiness, compassion, understanding, etc.

[greenfrog]

Great post Ricky 

 I agree in particular with the line the last line of your post.

[tpe]

Great post Ricky 

 I agree in particular with the line the last line of your post.

It is indeed true for everyone.

A fling is for fun.  Love is for the long haul.

[greenfrog]

Great post Ricky 

 I agree in particular with the line the last line of your post.

It is indeed true for everyone.

A fling is for fun.  Love is for the long haul.

True . . . And Ennis and Jack were definately no fling.  :\'(

[tpe]

I think people who question Jack's commitment (because of his trysts with male prostitutes) misunderstand the anguish that brought about these infidelities.

For Ennis, it was the opposite: his fidelity coexisted side by side with repression of his deepest feelings.  To say that his fears of being found out got the better of him is also to misunderstand his love for Jack.

[edgar]

According to the American Underworld Dictionary, the first definition of the slang phrase "put the blocks to" is "to be carnally intimate with." Here's a link:

http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=535554

Yes, I think Ennis and Cassie were sexual partners. I think Lee wants us to see Ennis as rather passive in the relationship. Cassie takes charge in their first meeting, making Ennis give her a footrub (surely a very erotic, symbolic gesture) and making him dance (a very common symbol for sex). So I think Cassie wanted sex--and more, she wanted love and marriage--and she got the sex part of her wish.

IIRC, in the short story, the wine with which Ennis and Junior toast is leftover from the last tryst between Ennis and Cassie. Ennis and Cassie drinking cheap wine together in that trailer... what else are they going to do after that but have sex?

[welshwitch]

OK, so Jack tried to pick up Jimbo, then went to Mexico, then presumably responded to Randall's overtures; meanwhile Ennis was having sex with Cassie in the trailer, his wife having divorced him. In other words, although once Alma was gone and Jack's marriage to Lureen had become something, he says, that they could do on the phone  both of them could have been physically faithful to the other, neither did. I suppose I dislike the idea so much because  I like the thought of them realising the other one is the only one and since they can't be together permanently at least not finding room for anyone else when they can't be together. Unrealisitc, I suppose - certainly unromantic.

You could read all this as each attempting to find a more satisfactory relationship but failing no matter what they try, perhaps, and so showing the importance of what they have together - but this feels a bit desperate.

[edgar]

Yes, welshwitch, sorry about those romantic illusions, but men tend to have sex when it's offered them. I think the standard way to "justify" the sex E and J are having with other people would be "it doesn't mean anything."

And now back to the literary and abstract: Ennis's yielding physically to Cassie is yet another time in the movie that E and J seem to be living parallel lives: it is very reminiscent of Jack's yielding to Lureen.

[welshwitch]

Are you going down the " predatory women, poor men, just their victims" route here?

You're right - we don't know how Alma and Ennis got involved but Lureen and Cassie make all the running, presumably because by the time they come into Jack's and Ennis's lives there is no doubt about who the boys are committed to.

[tpe]

Interesting exchange here, edgar and welshwitch.  I do think all the other relationships for both of them acted as surrogates. 

As to Jack acting on his carnal impulses with other men, I would again tend to say that there is a difference in temperament between him and Ennis.  Did Jack ever try to find an outlet for his sexual needs in the guise of another woman?  He claimed to have had something going with his ranch neighbor's wife -- although I think this was pure subterfuge (to hide his true relationship with Randall), I have wondered whether he would have ever tried to keep his sexual needs satisfied by the implicitly "accepted" way: relations with other women.  I suspect that he didn't.  I suspect he had long understood and accepted his own identity.
 

[welshwitch]

Which is why he only looks to men when Ennis is unavailable and why Ennis turns to another woman after Alma. Ennis never accepts what he feels for Jack because his primary sense of himlelf is, as he says on the mountain, "I ain't queer". As long as Jack is the only man he's involved with, Jack can be seen as some sort of one-off; if there was any other man, and certainly one he'd be paying, that would make him queer ( and desperate too). I sometimes wonder if all the comments about the waitress aren;t some sort of typical male boasting to demonstrate hpw macho he is, while Jack's tale about the ranch-formen's wife is the truth except that he changes the sex of the other person involved, both to parallel Ennis's story and because he doesn't want to seem a promiscuous gay, or indeed any sort of gay, to Ennis.

In fact there is something very strange going on in the way that Ennis compartmentalizes the relationship with Jack, and Jack sees what he's doing and goes along with it. 

[BBBOY]

Which is why he only looks to men when Ennis is unavailable and why Ennis turns to another woman after Alma. Ennis never accepts what he feels for Jack because his primary sense of himlelf is, as he says on the mountain, "I ain't queer". As long as Jack is the only man he's involved with, Jack can be seen as some sort of one-off; if there was any other man, and certainly one he'd be paying, that would make him queer ( and desperate too). I sometimes wonder if all the comments about the waitress aren;t some sort of typical male boasting to demonstrate hpw macho he is, while Jack's tale about the ranch-formen's wife is the truth except that he changes the sex of the other person involved, both to parallel Ennis's story and because he doesn't want to seem a promiscuous gay, or indeed any sort of gay, to Ennis.

In fact there is something very strange going on in the way that Ennis compartmentalizes the relationship with Jack, and Jack sees what he's doing and goes along with it. 

I think Jack understands that he can not confront Ennis with the reality of the situation. It's really sad when you understand how much Jack is willing to sacrifice for the "couple of high altitude f**ks once or twice a year". His love is so complete. The more I understand it the more I am blown away by it. It is what I dreamed of, longed for, for so long, and what I never found.

[LuvJackNasty]

Yes  it is very sad. As WW said he compartmentalizes and IMO, he is only "queer" with Jack- it's "this thing". Sadly it is Jack's death that makes him see the truth.

I think people who question Jack's commitment (because of his trysts with male prostitutes) misunderstand the anguish that brought about these infidelities.

For Ennis, it was the opposite: his fidelity coexisted side by side with repression of his deepest feelings.  To say that his fears of being found out got the better of him is also to misunderstand his love for Jack.

Exactly- I don't think Jack is sitting back smugly saying "look at all of the men I've bedded". My opinion of the prostitute scene is that this is what he is reduced to- he can't have what (who) he wants so he has to substitute and make do. He doesn't look happy or proud to be there.

Well said on both counts tpe. 

[BBBOY]

Yes  it is very sad. As WW said he compartmentalizes and IMO, he is only "queer" with Jack- it's "this thing". Sadly it is Jack's death that makes him see the truth.

I think people who question Jack's commitment (because of his trysts with male prostitutes) misunderstand the anguish that brought about these infidelities.

For Ennis, it was the opposite: his fidelity coexisted side by side with repression of his deepest feelings.  To say that his fears of being found out got the better of him is also to misunderstand his love for Jack.

Exactly- I don't think Jack is sitting back smugly saying "look at all of the men I've bedded". My opinion of the prostitute scene is that this is what he is reduced to- he can't have what (who) he wants so he has to substitute and make do. He doesn't look happy or proud to be there.

Well said on both counts tpe. 

Exactly. Jack is not proud to be where he is but like he says.................."can't live on a couple of high altitude fucks once or twoice a year."

[Patriot1]

I think Jack understands that he can not confront Ennis with the reality of the situation. It's really sad when you understand how much Jack is willing to sacrifice for the "couple of high altitude f**ks once or twice a year". His love is so complete. The more I understand it the more I am blown away by it. It is what I dreamed of, longed for, for so long, and what I never found.

I don't think Jack's love is complete. In order for it to be complete, it needs to be returned and it was not. So, Jack never found it either BBBoy.   :\'(

[tpe]

I think Jack understands that he can not confront Ennis with the reality of the situation. It's really sad when you understand how much Jack is willing to sacrifice for the "couple of high altitude f**ks once or twice a year". His love is so complete. The more I understand it the more I am blown away by it. It is what I dreamed of, longed for, for so long, and what I never found.

I also think is is a great tragedy that Jack never realized how much Ennis really loved him.   He died not knowing that, although I would want to think that his last thoughts were about Ennis...

Had he really known the full extent of Ennis's love for him -- would have this sustained Jack?  Would he have even bothered with male prostitutes?  Maybe.  But Ennis increasingly keeping his distance may have made it too difficult for Jack to stay faithful,  even if he knew that the love was unchanging.

[tpe]

Exactly- I don't think Jack is sitting back smugly saying "look at all of the men I've bedded". My opinion of the prostitute scene is that this is what he is reduced to- he can't have what (who) he wants so he has to substitute and make do. He doesn't look happy or proud to be there.

Jack was reduced to eating the crumbs -- and he knew it.  He probably hated it -- because it was a constant reminder to him that Ennis remained just beyond his grasp in his vision of a sweet life.

[tpe]

I think Jack understands that he can not confront Ennis with the reality of the situation. It's really sad when you understand how much Jack is willing to sacrifice for the "couple of high altitude f**ks once or twice a year". His love is so complete. The more I understand it the more I am blown away by it. It is what I dreamed of, longed for, for so long, and what I never found.

I don't think Jack's love is complete. In order for it to be complete, it needs to be returned and it was not. So, Jack never found it either BBBoy.   :\'(

In this sense, yes, it remained incomplete.

[greenfrog]

Exactly- I don't think Jack is sitting back smugly saying "look at all of the men I've bedded". My opinion of the prostitute scene is that this is what he is reduced to- he can't have what (who) he wants so he has to substitute and make do. He doesn't look happy or proud to be there.

Jack was reduced to eating the crumbs -- and he knew it.  He probably hated it -- because it was a constant reminder to him that Ennis remained just beyond his grasp in his vision of a sweet life.

And that know matter how much he tried, Ennis would never settle down with him into this life he (Jack) invisoned for them.

[tpe]

If Ennis preferred women sexually more than he did men, then that was a sign of how special Jack was to Ennis.  It would also go a long way at explaining why Ennis never bothered with male prostitutes -- Jack may have been the only man he ever loved.

Still, even if Ennis did prefer men over women, his fear and early childhood trauma would also explain his eschewing male prostitutes -- like many gay men who are in denial, he would have made a conscious effort not to address or internally acknowledge his true sexual needs and take exception with those he truly loved and bonded with (in this case, Jack).

Either way, we can come up with a reason of why Ennis behaved the way he did.

[welshwitch]

And practically speaking, even if Ennis had been inclined to b e as reckless as Jack, how many opportunities would there have been in Riverton, which makes a one-horse town look like a metropolis?

Part of Ennis's problem is that he's a country/small-town boy with narrow horizins - what Jack reperesents is a broadening of those horizons to a point where Ennis feels in severe danger of falling off the rim of the world.

[rick65]

And practically speaking, even if Ennis had been inclined to b e as reckless as Jack, how many opportunities would there have been in Riverton, which makes a one-horse town look like a metropolis?

Part of Ennis's problem is that he's a country/small-town boy with narrow horizins - what Jack reperesents is a broadening of those horizons to a point where Ennis feels in severe danger of falling off the rim of the world.

I'm quoting your post, Welshwitch, because it does underline the insecurity that Ennis feels. He even has trouble moving to town when Alma asks about that place over the laundromat (the film, not the story). Part of Ennis character is to stick around, "you's gotta stand it."
It is as if he fears change, is scared of trying new things, and would rather not attempt anything different. Even if Jack plays a part in any transition, Ennis' fear has been so engraved into his being, that the apprehension makes him stop and wonder how they will overcome the adversities.
I think many of us can relate to this common stumbling block, it's all too human. I, myself, many times do not complete or undertake a task, even if necessary, for fear. "I'll tell you what."

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

I'm quoting your post, Welshwitch, because it does underline the insecurity that Ennis feels. He even has trouble moving to town when Alma asks about that place over the laundromat (the film, not the story). Part of Ennis character is to stick around, "you's gotta stand it."
It is as if he fears change, is scared of trying new things, and would rather not attempt anything different. Even if Jack plays a part in any transition, Ennis' fear has been so engraved into his being, that the apprehension makes him stop and wonder how they will overcome the adversities.
I think many of us can relate to this common stumbling block, it's all too human. I, myself, many times do not complete or undertake a task, even if necessary, for fear. "I'll tell you what."

You may have just explained a large part of the core of Ennis's personality...fear, apprehension, "gotta stand it."  These factors have played so much in a number of our lives over the years.  It certainly explains why Ennis didn't explore what may or may not have been a deep desire.  One thing is for sure...his relationship with Jack did make sense to him even though is was something that he feared.

[BBBOY]

If Ennis preferred women sexually more than he did men, then that was a sign of how special Jack was to Ennis.  It would also go a long way at explaining why Ennis never bothered with male prostitutes -- Jack may have been the only man he ever loved.

Still, even if Ennis did prefer men over women, his fear and early childhood trauma would also explain his eschewing male prostitutes -- like many gay men who are in denial, he would have made a conscious effort not to address or internally acknowledge his true sexual needs and take exception with those he truly loved and bonded with (in this case, Jack).

Either way, we can come up with a reason of why Ennis behaved the way he did.

I'm wonderin how many hustlers there are in Wyoming. Not many, I'd imagine, and Ennis's personalilty would never have led him too one. I like to think of myself as rather sophisticated, but I would never have or would turn to a hustler, no matter how horny I was. And friends, I've had plenty of opportunity! 

[welshwitch]

Somehow I can't see Ennis going to San Fran with a flower in his hair ( or without) ....Ennis is hemmed in by his wne concept of what he is, unlike Jack, who wants to be something and somewhere else. Ennis doesn;t entertain possibilities - I doubt if he even fantasizes - Jack does. But enns also believes that you have to put up with thiongs, so when Jack's not there he does without him, and without sex after the divorce. Jack, on the other hand, wants to change things if he doesn't like them  the way they are - he's the once who constantly bitches on Brokeback.

But I don't think going to Mrexico and picking up a male prostiture was an exploration of what it might be like if he had sex he's paid for - mor the result of deperation and despair, I'd say. The difference is that Jack can conceive of doing that and ennis never would. 

[BBBOY]

But I don't think going to Mrexico and picking up a male prostiture was an exploration of what it might be like if he had sex he's paid for - mor the result of deperation and despair, I'd say. The difference is that Jack can conceive of doing that and ennis never would. 

I completely agree with you about this.

[tpe]

If Ennis preferred women sexually more than he did men, then that was a sign of how special Jack was to Ennis.  It would also go a long way at explaining why Ennis never bothered with male prostitutes -- Jack may have been the only man he ever loved.

Still, even if Ennis did prefer men over women, his fear and early childhood trauma would also explain his eschewing male prostitutes -- like many gay men who are in denial, he would have made a conscious effort not to address or internally acknowledge his true sexual needs and take exception with those he truly loved and bonded with (in this case, Jack).

Either way, we can come up with a reason of why Ennis behaved the way he did.

I'm wonderin how many hustlers there are in Wyoming. Not many, I'd imagine, and Ennis's personalilty would never have led him too one. I like to think of myself as rather sophisticated, but I would never have or would turn to a hustler, no matter how horny I was. And friends, I've had plenty of opportunity! 

This is interesting.  I have met 2 types of gays in this regard.  My friend Robert. like you, would NEVER have considered paying for sex and having sex with huslers (not that he needed any action, especially when he was younger -- he was quite stunning.)  But another mutuial friend, Frank, never though that much of it -- he considered hustlers as divertisments, and had no particular qualms about it (though he was discreet).

As far as the availabilty of hustlers in Wyoming, I can imagine that it is much rarer.  Still, I suspect that sex for pay can always be had: it simply depends on a stipulated or unsaid contract and a certain degree of discreetness.  But I fully expect this to be trickier ouside of the big cities, and it probably would have involved some risk.  Hence, Ennis probably was not in the path of temptation as far as this aspect is concerned.

 

[aintfoolin]

I don't think Ennis would ever go seeking out another man. It took him long enough to trust Jack, and trust is essential with Ennis. But.... IF,  and that's a big if , Ennis was presented with the chance to cheat discreetly like Jack did and he was positive he would'nt be found out, with maybe a couple drinks in him, maybe. But I doubt it.