Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: aintfoolin on Sep 28, 2006, 05:38 AM
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In the reunion scene Jack comes into the foyer of the apartment. His demeanor seems cautious , almost timid as if he knows that Alma knows something IMO. then he sees her for the first time and the look on his face to me is one of suprise and .....well I want to say disappointment but I'm not sure. Compared with his own wife Lureen, Alma looks downright dowdy. Is this what he expected Ennis wife to be? This is the person he is "competing with for Ennis. Then in a later scene, Jack says "you and Alma? that's a life? what did he mean by this? Did Jack look down on Alma. What does he learn about Ennis from Alma's demeanor? What does Jack really think of Alma? Please help me get inside Jack's head concernig this.
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I suspect that Jack was more uncomfortable than anything else. And I think that Jack did not even properly observe Alma's appearance, and he must have not cared for her even if she were stunningly beautiful. To Jack, she was an outsider, but the fact that she was Ennis's wife most certainly made him uncomfortable, especially after the kiss. Ennis and Jack both must have felt that something must have been showing after that kiss -- psychological, most likely.
The kiss and what was to come were probably foremost in Jack's mind. Was this the only time Jack and Alma ever met? I suspect that this was the case.
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I agree "uncomfortable" was Jack's likely state of mind while meeting Alma. After all, Jack had just finished a very passionate kiss with her husband. Since Jack knew that a lot more with Ennis was to follow, it's doubtful he could have mustered up any more than a few pleasantries that go with introductions. Personally, if Alma had vented anymore radiation in Jack's direction, I don't think he would have noticed.
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In the reunion scene Jack comes into the foyer of the apartment. His demeanor seems cautious , almost timid as if he knows that Alma knows something IMO. then he sees her for the first time and the look on his face to me is one of suprise and .....well I want to say disappointment but I'm not sure. Compared with his own wife Lureen, Alma looks downright dowdy. Is this what he expected Ennis wife to be? This is the person he is "competing with for Ennis. Then in a later scene, Jack says "you and Alma? that's a life? what did he mean by this? Did Jack look down on Alma. What does he learn about Ennis from Alma's demeanor? What does Jack really think of Alma? Please help me get inside Jack's head concernig this.
"you and Alma? that's a life? I also think Jack was thinking about Ennis' motel room comment "stuck with what I got" meaning stuck with Alma. Also, Ennis said "I love my little girls" with no mention of Alma.
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He seems less curious or interested than determined to get through the normal pleasantries as quickly as possible - but both he and Ennis are so emotional at this point that I doubt if either is thinking about Alma. I guess this is the only time Jack ever sees her; he doesn't really need to know much about her - just knowing what Ennis does for a living and seeing where they live would be enough to tell him Ennis hasn't married as well as he has, if he care, which I don't think he does.
The "You and Alma, that's a life?" comment seems to show contempt for Alma, or at least for the life Ennis leads with her, but I think that's less of Alma herself than for the fact of her existence, this small-town girl and her two children who are keeping Ennis away from him, or so it must seem to Jack at this point. It's not till later, when she's gone, that he realizes that's not true.
And anyway he knows Ennis and his "I'll stick to beans" attitude - Ennis would hardly be likely to marry a beauty queen or a socialite.
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Perhaps "uncomfortable " is a better word for the expressionJack was giving, but every since I saw this the first time I've wondered what was going through his mind, actually getting to meet the wife of his married lover. How often does that happen.??! Just the idea of bringing these two face to face, made me cringe, A bold move by Ennis I think.What was he thinking? Most men would try to put as much distance as possible between the"other woman" (or man ) in this case and the wife. Why have them meet?
I kept waiting for her to lose it and scratch someone's eyes out after what she'd seen. I remember the first time seeing the movie and saying OMIGOD!!! out loud at the screen . Seeing her witness the kiss made my jaw drop to the floor.And the "you may be married to him, but he,s mine tonight" look that Jack gives Alma as he,s leaving is priceless.
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Perhaps "uncomfortable " is a better word for the expressionJack was giving, but every since I saw this the first time I've wondered what was going through his mind, actually getting to meet the wife of his married lover. How often does that happen.??! Just the idea of bringing these two face to face, made me cringe, A bold move by Ennis I think.What was he thinking? Most men would try to put as much distance as possible between the"other woman" (or man ) in this case and the wife. Why have them meet?
I kept waiting for her to lose it and scratch someone's eyes out after what she'd seen. I remember the first time seeing the movie and saying OMIGOD!!! out loud at the screen . Seeing her witness the kiss made my jaw drop to the floor.And the "you may be married to him, but he,s mine tonight" look that Jack gives Alma as he,s leaving is priceless.
That look just says it all, doesn't it? Jack Nasty!!! ;D
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi64.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh167%2Fgunner-girl%2Freunion9.jpg&hash=06d46d29881f9e123cbdd6e4f4872ebe0a6519e6)
Of course, if it was anyone else but Jack, or if it had been a woman instead of a man,I would have been screaming at Alma to give him a slap,but this movie just doesn't work like that ;) I don't think Ennis had a choice about introducing them, after all, Jack was just an old fishing buddy as far as Alma was concerned so it would've looked strange if he hadn't, and also Jack had only been back in Ennis's life for all of five minutes, so I don't think he'd had time to think of it in terms of keeping his wife and lover apart, unlike the morning after, when he leaves Jack waiting outside while he rushes in and out to get his stuff. I agree with what others have said, after that kiss, I don't think Jack would've noticed if Alma had two heads, all he wanted to do was get to the motel asap for that "later..." Ennis had promised him ;)
Having said that, Jack does seem to me to at least make an effort to be polite,he tries to make eye contact a couple of times, but Alma's reaction to him isn't exactly welcoming, for obvious reasons, but of course Jack doesn't know that. The way he says "pleased to meet you ma'am" comes across as so sarcastic, cause she's made it perfectly clear that she's not at all pleased to meet Jack,but he probably just thinks it's because she's looking down her nose at him, or that she's just over- possesive of Ennis, and that's what makes him take a dislike to her, which is then added to by Ennis using his life with her and the girls as the reason why they can't be together. The "you and Alma, that's a life?" comment I think Jack meant that Ennis couldn't possibly feel for Alma what he felt for Jack, and Alma would never be able to make Ennis feel like Jack made him feel,the sheer power of the reuinion kiss showed how much repressed passion Ennis had been holding inside him for four years, after releasing it and rediscovering it like that, how could Ennis be prepared to lose it again and go back to settling for second best with Alma?
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That look just says it all, doesn't it? Jack Nasty!!! ;D
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi64.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh167%2Fgunner-girl%2Freunion9.jpg&hash=06d46d29881f9e123cbdd6e4f4872ebe0a6519e6)
MINE !!!!!
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I just love Jack and his tongue action. So cute.
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That look just says it all, doesn't it? Jack Nasty!!! ;D
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi64.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh167%2Fgunner-girl%2Freunion9.jpg&hash=06d46d29881f9e123cbdd6e4f4872ebe0a6519e6)
MINE !!!!!
:8
What a look!
I agree with what has already been said. Jack was doing his best to be cordial and polite but ultimately had no interest in anything more than Hello/Goodbye and if you notice the small talk he did make it was actually made with Ennis. The only thing he directed at Alma was "smiles a lot" in regards to Bobby.
"You and Alma, that's a life?" again, I agree with what has already been said. Jack knows how Ennis feels about him and after Ennis refered to his marriage as "stuck", he knows Ennis is not happy in the current situation, same as Jack. Jack wants out but Ennis is perfectly content being miserable. Jack's offer was his hopes for them to both be happy.
-Kristin
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Thanks for all the wonderful comments, and I agree that Jack just wanted to distance himself from her as soon as possible, IMO Jack would'nt have givivn a good goddamn if Alma was the first lady, he was gettin Ennis alone to himself that night for reasons we all know and understand. I guess he was able to seperate the two relationships in his mind and came to the conclusion that Alma is just some one who stood between he and Ennis, An object really who stood between he and Enni's life together. It was she who stood between them before at Aguirre's trailer right after they came down from Brokeback, being engaged to Ennis and Ennis's insistance on marrying her. Jack knew then that whom ever she was, she was going to be the obstacle . It was because of her that he had to bow out of his man's life for four long years. In his heart, he knew he loved Ennis more.......And that Ennis loved him more too. My heart went out to him when he drove away in that truck.
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When Jack was telling Ennis and Alma about Lureen and his son, there was a look of disbelief in Alma's face. Did Jack see this? Or was his head bowed down? Was he looking at Ennis? Or did he just not care?
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I don;t know whether it was deliberate on Jack's part, but I thought he made a point of mentioning his wife and son. The "married the prettiest gal in Childress" comment seems a bit crass when clearly the girl Ennis married is not the prettiest little gal even in Riverton - is he boasting? Or is he just establishing that he's a normal male - old buddy, been busy finding a wife, getting married, fathering a son - in order not to arouse suspicion? If the latter, how ironic that it's wasted effort - Alma's seen the kiss - she knows this is no ordinary friendship.
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I think your right Welshwitch,I guess he felt he had to create this scenario for Alma that he was just an old freind and nothing more.Un fortunately Alma had aready seen the kiss and had formed her own conclusions. I've always felt at this very point Alma held all the cards. But for many reasons of her own, she chose not to play them at this time. Being from a culture that women were taught to keep their mouths shut and the men wore the pants in the family,She couln't fix it so she stood it which is Enni's philosophy.Even though I Want Ennis and Jack together I see Alma as a victim. Ennis should neverhave married her.
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I think Ennis was real proud that Jack had a son. He was beaming in response.
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Not too much to add since it has all been said so well. I really don't know how Jack managed to recover from that kiss to make it up the stairs- it took me a while to recover the first time seeing it. ;) I think he just wanted to get it over with- his mind was probably racing in so many directions- "I can't believe he just layed that kiss on me" "I want what's coming next" "What the hell am I supposed to her" etc. I think his comment about Lureen and Bobby was him just trying to make conversation. As for whether or not Jack cared about the look on Alma's face (if he even noticed it) I don't think he did. He was heartbroken after leaving BBM, stuck with the horrid Newsome's, took a chance and reached out to Ennis who answered him in a way that was probably beyond his expectations. He was finally breathing and alive again and I don't think much else mattered to him right then and there.
The "You and Alma, that's a life?" comment seems to show contempt for Alma, or at least for the life Ennis leads with her, but I think that's less of Alma herself than for the fact of her existence, this small-town girl and her two children who are keeping Ennis away from him, or so it must seem to Jack at this point. It's not till later, when she's gone, that he realizes that's not true.
And anyway he knows Ennis and his "I'll stick to beans" attitude - Ennis would hardly be likely to marry a beauty queen or a socialite.
I agree with what has already been said. Jack was doing his best to be cordial and polite but ultimately had no interest in anything more than Hello/Goodbye and if you notice the small talk he did make it was actually made with Ennis. The only thing he directed at Alma was "smiles a lot" in regards to Bobby.
"You and Alma, that's a life?" again, I agree with what has already been said. Jack knows how Ennis feels about him and after Ennis refered to his marriage as "stuck", he knows Ennis is not happy in the current situation, same as Jack. Jack wants out but Ennis is perfectly content being miserable. Jack's offer was his hopes for them to both be happy.
-Kristin
Well said re: "You and Alma that's a life?" Jack knows how unhappy he is in his own situation and after that kiss Ennis planted on him he knows that the married, straight life facade is not agreeing with Ennis. I don't know if it was contempt for Alma necessarily but contempt for the fact that Ennis was going to continue to live his "life" in Riverton. Ennis had said "Making a living's about all I got time for" He's making a living not a life.
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Making a living as opposed to building a life is an evasion of reality on Ennis's part - whether or not Jack knows it, he certainly feels it intuirively. His first sight of Alma and ennis with her must have told him something about their relationship.
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I'm wondering why Jack chose not to return to the apartment with Ennis instead stayed outside, while Ennis packed for the trip to the mountains the next morning. Must've got some bad vibes from Alma. huh? Texans DO drink coffee, it's just that this one did'nt want to drink it with her for some reason . IMO he was either being respectfully discreet, or could'nt face her agan after screwing her husband's brains out the night before. What's up with that? Does the SS deal with this? I read it but it's been awhile. I can't believe Alma actually wanted Jack in for coffee and pleasant conversation did she?Ennis cracked me up with his " he's from Texas" comment.they did go to a resturant,where I'm sure they had coffee.
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In the SS, there was no return to Ennis's appartment - Jack persuaded him to call Alma from the motel and they went up into the mountains from there.
I think Jack opted to stay outside this time because he had felt so awkward before and that was after "just" a kiss (but what a kiss!) After spending the night with Ennis I think he probably thought that if they went up into the appartment together it would be impossible to hide the "we've spent the whole night f***ing each others brains out and now we're going off to the mountains to do it for a whole three days" look on his face and the very obvious electricity between them.
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Almost impossible to switch from one role ( lover) to another ( old friend) in front of the very person you need to hide the truth from - no way at this point could either of them behaved normally in front of Alma. Ennis doesn;t do a very good job of it even on his own.
BTW, there's a bit of a problem in the ss too. Ennis leaves his apartment with Jack to go out drinking and says they may stay out all night. Next morning Jack persuades him to call Alma from the motel and say he's going "up in the mountains" with him. He adds that Ennis should throw his stuff into the back of the pickup- so Ennis doesn't go home, but has his things with him. How? He'd hardly have left the apartment with all the things for a few days away...The movie solves that problem but leaves the awkwardness of Jack not wanting to come in and face Alma.
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O.K. now I remember. Jack persuaded Ennis to call Alma for a few more days of....well....getting re-aquainted .But in the movie Alma did'nt act like they had any previous conversation, with Ennis hurriedly explaining that he and Jack were going up to the mountains for a couple of days to "do a little fishin". She looked caught off guard to me and in desparation started doing and saying anything she could to keep Ennis at home while Jack calmy waited for her husband right outside her front door. . This seemed to really rile her up at Jack as if she knew he was taking Ennis away from her, and did'nt give a damn, especially when she ran to the window, looked down to see Jack was still there. waitig to wisk him away from her AGAIN . She knew at that point that Jack was a force to be reckoned with. that he was'nt just gonna step aside again and every thing would go back to normal for her. She had seen too much. They were rivals to each other with Ennis being the target of both.I bet it was one very long night for her.Her contempt for Jack was obvious still years later at Thanksgiving.
It's ironic that in the end neither one could get Ennis to totally commit to a stable life and everybody lost out, especially Ennis , He lost his true love forever.
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I'm wondering why Jack chose not to return to the apartment with Ennis instead stayed outside, while Ennis packed for the trip to the mountains the next morning. Must've got some bad vibes from Alma. huh? Texans DO drink coffee, it's just that this one did'nt want to drink it with her for some reason . IMO he was either being respectfully discreet, or could'nt face her agan after screwing her husband's brains out the night before. What's up with that? Does the SS deal with this? I read it but it's been awhile. I can't believe Alma actually wanted Jack in for coffee and pleasant conversation did she?Ennis cracked me up with his " he's from Texas" comment.they did go to a resturant,where I'm sure they had coffee.
I don't think it was so much that Alma wanted Jack to come up for coffee and coversation, I think she just felt she had a right to question Ennis on why Jack had not come up to socialize and to have a sound, justified reason to disapprove of Ennis going on his trips, all while inadvertantly being part of the facade by never "diming Ennis out" while they were still married.
At this point in the movie, Jack is a "predator" by Alma's standpoint. I say predator because look at the way Jack is standing/leaning on his truck when she goes and looks at him out the window. From the first time I saw this scene I thought Jack resembled an animal that was about to attack it's prey and generally wreck havoc on the calmness of the other animals (Ennis and Alma's marriage/family in this case)
If Alma had that opinion of Jack, her mentioning him coming up for coffee is either her way of giving her another reason not to like him and/or interrogate Jack if he had come up. I really don't see Alma being the type to interrogate a man she just met, but when you're upset and shocked, one can never know.
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I don't know but in the reunion scene Alma and Jack saw one each other as rivals, she is the reason because he could't be together with Ennis and he come to break up her life, the Alma feelings are obvious and we can seeing why, but Jacks feelings are a mistery because he don't know her until that moment, we only can assume he look her as his rival but i don't believe he feel scorn for her, is just like you say before he tray to say with his charming eyes "HE IS MINE, NOT YOUR, NEVER WAS IT AND NEVER WILL BE"
When he say That's a life maybe he's just looking for a reason to make Ennis believe that was just an appearance Ennis marriage was just a dream, is not real and maybe they could be a good life together, well is just my opinion :s)
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I agree with your comment Carbyville, She was trying to force Ennis to justify going away with Jack again so soon. right? Well Ennis was'nt about to volunteer any free information about him and Jack's affair. but I agree that she did have the right to ask. She was also being sarcastic about it i believe with the "Texans don't drink coffe " remark. I also agreed with you that Jack took on a more "predatory" stance toward the whole thing that morning. He was a little more brazen with his approach to the situation, coming back to their house as if daring Alma . Maybe he did'nt come up for coffee or come face to face with her again, but he made sure Alma got the message and that was HE"S GOING WITH ME. and nothing you do can stop it. I also bet that the night before Jack had made sure to try and make Ennis forget about Alma .....forever.
JeffJoe, your right about them being rivals at that point in the kitchen and on into the next morning. A slient rivalry going on between them. Athough I understand where Alma's up bringing did not prepare her to strongly deal with this complicated situation, I kept wanting her to, just to lay everything out on the line. to let Jack know that she deserved some respect Jack wating downstairs alone while Ennis was packing was the time. But it's only a movie tellin a story eh?. It was the perfect opportunity for her to approach her rival. She just could'nt bring herself to do it. I wonder if Jack took Alma's timidity for weakness? She could'nt stop him from leaving, I guess Jack's love had more meaning for Ennis.His goodbye kiss for her seemed more like a cold after thought. I'm rambling now .
Ennis is definitly NOT off the hook either. My 2 cents is all.
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Ennis is caught between the two of them - going off after the reunion and up to the mountains is where we see the strength of Jack's hold on Ennis - after this Jack never apparently intrudes into their life again and Ennis compartmentalizes his fishing trips. Here it's evident from the contrast in the passionate reunion kiss and the perfunctory one Ennis gives Alma before he goes that it's the physical bond between him and Jack which is the stronger, though most of the time Ennis's fears and regard for outward apearances don't let him respond to it.
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I think Jack is showing us more than we see at first glance. I believe, when he makes his remark about Ennis' life with Alma, he is really reflecting his perception of his own life with Lureen. He could have said, "Lureen and me? That's a life?" He's not happy in his marriage and assumes Ennis is likewise unhappy. Just IMO.
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He certainly isn't happy - look at the later comment that they could do it on the telephone. I think that in a way he hopes Ennis's marriage is no more fulfilling than his own - he's seen Alma and evidently isn't impressed either, so maybe he thinks she isn;t much competition. then he knows what Ennis's life muct be like in a small town and doing the sort of jobs he does - it all adds up to a not-very-attractive package, so perhaps he hopes it won't be enough to hold Ennis back from committing to him.
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All you said is true WW, Jack married up, so he got a taste of the "good life" whereas Ennis continued to take temporary ranch jobs that probably did'ni pay much. I believe Jack did want a better life for Ennis,one he'd never have with Alma. Because he loved Ennis, and knew that Ennis 's dream one day was to own his own spread, and it was his own dream too. ), It would have been the ideal partnership for them both. I think Jack beleived that when you love someone, you want to see them succeed at something. This cow and calf operation would have allowed Ennis to do what he knows and does best. He knows ranching and he's good at it therefore it would have been a successful venture. Jack knew this.He also knew that Ennis was unhappy in his current "stuck mode" from the conversation in the motel room. It must've been frustrating for Jack not to be able get Ennis to see that it was at least worth a shot. Ennie's tireiron childhood nightmare, in reality was a bigger obstacle to overcome to Jack than Alma. That and the fact that he could'nt completely pull the covers off his true feelings for Jack , and expose himself to the rest of the world. The shame was ingrained into him by his father and that's a shame.
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It's more than a shame, aintfoolin, it's a tragedy. You're spot on in everything you say - if only Ennis could have seen it.
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I don;t know whether it was deliberate on Jack's part, but I thought he made a point of mentioning his wife and son. The "married the prettiest gal in Childress" comment seems a bit crass when clearly the girl Ennis married is not the prettiest little gal even in Riverton - is he boasting? Or is he just establishing that he's a normal male - old buddy, been busy finding a wife, getting married, fathering a son - in order not to arouse suspicion? If the latter, how ironic that it's wasted effort - Alma's seen the kiss - she knows this is no ordinary friendship.
I had thought that he had boasted about Lureen and his son partly to cover up his relationship with Ennis. I certainly think he would have acted differently had he realized that Alma just saw him and Ennis kissing...
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I think Ennis was real proud that Jack had a son. He was beaming in response.
I think this also was partly the reason.
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I'm wondering why Jack chose not to return to the apartment with Ennis instead stayed outside, while Ennis packed for the trip to the mountains the next morning. Must've got some bad vibes from Alma. huh? Texans DO drink coffee, it's just that this one did'nt want to drink it with her for some reason . IMO he was either being respectfully discreet, or could'nt face her agan after screwing her husband's brains out the night before. What's up with that? Does the SS deal with this? I read it but it's been awhile. I can't believe Alma actually wanted Jack in for coffee and pleasant conversation did she?Ennis cracked me up with his " he's from Texas" comment.they did go to a resturant,where I'm sure they had coffee.
I suspect that Ennis probably dissuaded him, if he had such an intention. I am sure Jack didn't mind that.
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I also suspect that Ennis, if he's anything like most men, wants to pack as qiuickly and as little as possible, so he isn't going to be in the apartment long. Both he and Jack want to get away, anyway, out of town where he might be recognized and talked about in Ennis's case, and just away with only Ennis in Jack's case. I hardly think he'd want to waste time on making polite conversation with Alma when he knows they have only a few days together to look forward to. When you're in love and full of desire the rest of the world often seems a troublesome intrusion and irrelevance.
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Yes he was proud that Jack had a son. It also reinforced the idea that Jack was just an old fishing buddy with a great family and nothing more . Of course Alma was'nt buying any of it. It stuck with me that Jack would use the words "smiles alot lot" while Alma's standing there mad enough to chew nails. That's odd to me . Seems Jack had to know that she had figured something out from the look on Alma's face. why else would she be staring at him with such distain in her eyes He is suppose to be Ennis's best friend who'd driven all the way from Texas to see his good "friend " right? .I mean what other reason in Jack's mind would Alma have for such rude behavior towards her husband's closest best freind ?. I think these questions entered Jack's mind, but at that point I don't think he nor Ennis gave a damn , made polite small talk with her and got the hell on as soon as he coluld.. Shit, When he looked down with that hat down low it was a cue that this conversation was over and the " Look here Ennis I'm done so let's just get the F##ck outta here asap" look was telling.
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The whole situation is fraught anyway. Here's this so-called fishing buddy who's turned up out of the blue after Alma's been married for nearly four years and all they want is to get away from her with the most perfunctory nods to normal courtesy - even if she hadn't seen the kiss she might have found it a little odd. Earlier she's made the suggestion about all going out for a meal, which might be more normal. And I agree, asintfooln, the look on alma's face is pretty hard for Jack to understand without knowing what caused it - i know women often resent their husbands' drinking buddies, but this was the first time in four years Jack's appeared, so why, from his POV, would she look so hostile?
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Maybe in Jack's mind He felt there may be a strong possibillity that Alma had seen their kissfest. And to avoid a confrontation ,( which most likely would not have happened) He was'nt takin any chances and vacated the premises as soon as he could.........with Ennis in tow of course. I think he knew she knew. I think that Jack may have been on a mission after Ennis answered the postcard. He came there hopfuully to claim what was his. He was'nt sure what he'd encounter when he got there, but he knew Ennis was still married to Alma at the time, but was not deterred from his plan.To his suprise when Ennis kissed him the way he did, all Jack's questions were answerd and Alma 's significance moved further out of the picture. He knew Ennis still loved him. Unfortunately he learned later that it was'nt Alma that proved to be the bigger obstacle, but Ennis himself. Poor Jack
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I also suspect that Ennis, if he's anything like most men, wants to pack as qiuickly and as little as possible, so he isn't going to be in the apartment long. Both he and Jack want to get away, anyway, out of town where he might be recognized and talked about in Ennis's case, and just away with only Ennis in Jack's case. I hardly think he'd want to waste time on making polite conversation with Alma when he knows they have only a few days together to look forward to. When you're in love and full of desire the rest of the world often seems a troublesome intrusion and irrelevance.
Yes, this is certainly a common "fault" among lovers. Their mutual friends are usually the first to suffer this.
If Alma were just a good friend to Ennis, would Jack have treated her differently? I suspect not.
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Yes he was proud that Jack had a son. It also reinforced the idea that Jack was just an old fishing buddy with a great family and nothing more . Of course Alma was'nt buying any of it. It stuck with me that Jack would use the words "smiles alot lot" while Alma's standing there mad enough to chew nails. That's odd to me . Seems Jack had to know that she had figured something out from the look on Alma's face. why else would she be staring at him with such distain in her eyes He is suppose to be Ennis's best friend who'd driven all the way from Texas to see his good "friend " right? .I mean what other reason in Jack's mind would Alma have for such rude behavior towards her husband's closest best freind ?. I think these questions entered Jack's mind, but at that point I don't think he nor Ennis gave a damn , made polite small talk with her and got the hell on as soon as he coluld.. Shit, When he looked down with that hat down low it was a cue that this conversation was over and the " Look here Ennis I'm done so let's just get the F##ck outta here asap" look was telling.
Very interesting thoughts, aintfoolin. I somehow got the same feeling, but was not so sure how best to elucidate it. But I did get a feeling that Jack (and even Ennis) somehow sensed that all was not right with her.
I don't know whether this is just me reading too much. That is quite possible.
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Maybe in Jack's mind He felt there may be a strong possibillity that Alma had seen their kissfest. And to avoid a confrontation ,( which most likely would not have happened) He was'nt takin any chances and vacated the premises as soon as he could.........with Ennis in tow of course. I think he knew she knew. I think that Jack may have been on a mission after Ennis answered the postcard. He came there hopfuully to claim what was his. He was'nt sure what he'd encounter when he got there, but he knew Ennis was still married to Alma at the time, but was not deterred from his plan.To his suprise when Ennis kissed him the way he did, all Jack's questions were answerd and Alma 's significance moved further out of the picture. He knew Ennis still loved him. Unfortunately he learned later that it was'nt Alma that proved to be the bigger obstacle, but Ennis himself. Poor Jack
You know, I had wondered if both of them considered of the possibility of Alma seeing them kiss. Although I find it unlikely, I can't discount that both might have had a SUSPICION that something was not entirely right.
Besides, Ennis remained careless after that. Could he have just assumed that Alma knew at some point and that he expected her not to bring it all out in the open? In the thanksgiving scene, Ennis seemed to be angry more because Alma dared to bring it all out in the open -- rather than because she knew about him and Jack.
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Yes he was proud that Jack had a son. It also reinforced the idea that Jack was just an old fishing buddy with a great family and nothing more . Of course Alma was'nt buying any of it. It stuck with me that Jack would use the words "smiles alot lot" while Alma's standing there mad enough to chew nails. That's odd to me . Seems Jack had to know that she had figured something out from the look on Alma's face. why else would she be staring at him with such distain in her eyes He is suppose to be Ennis's best friend who'd driven all the way from Texas to see his good "friend " right? .I mean what other reason in Jack's mind would Alma have for such rude behavior towards her husband's closest best freind ?. I think these questions entered Jack's mind, but at that point I don't think he nor Ennis gave a damn , made polite small talk with her and got the hell on as soon as he coluld.. Shit, When he looked down with that hat down low it was a cue that this conversation was over and the " Look here Ennis I'm done so let's just get the F##ck outta here asap" look was telling.
Very interesting thoughts, aintfoolin. I somehow got the same feeling, but was not so sure how best to elucidate it. But I did get a feeling that Jack (and even Ennis) somehow sensed that all was not right with her.
I don't know whether this is just me reading too much. That is quite possible.
I've always thought the "smiles a lot" comment seemed to be aimed at Alma, as if Jack was mentally adding "you ever heard of smiling?" ::) I'm not sure that either Ennis or Jack felt that Alma had seen them kissing though.I agree Alma's frostiness towards Jack isn't normal for someone just meeting an old friend of their husband's, most people would at least be more welcoming, invite the friend in for a drink, etc, but while, as far as Jack knows, Alma has no reason to dislike Jack, Jack has plenty of reason to dislike Alma, going back to them leaving Brokeback ("you gonna do this again next summer?" "Me and Alma's getting married in November").Ok, it's not Alma's fault, but Jack wouldn't be human if he didn't resent Alma for being the reason he'd had to wait four f***ing years for that kiss. There's always tension, or a sort of instinctive antipathy, when two people meet who have a partner in common, whether it's in the past or not, and whilst Jack didn't know that Alma knew, his instinct was to dislike her and subconsciously expected her to feel the same way about him. It's Ennis that I find hard to fathom, because he seems oblivious to the fact that Alma was talking earlier about taking Jack for a meal, and yet now she can hardly bring herself to even speak to him, you'd think he would've noticed her change in attitude, but I guess he still hadn't come back down to earth from that kiss, or just from seeing Jack again, the way he rushes out the door like it's raining money outside the minute he sees Jack,it's like he's forgotten Alma even exists, never mind what she might think.
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The points you raise, CrimsonSky, certainly makes me wonder, even though -- like you -- I feel that Ennis and Jack could not have realized then that they had been found out.
When Alma retreated back inside, she almost "slammed" the door behind her. Did not the sound alert Ennis? Was this the reason why he suddenly turned cautious? They were probably too oblivious to the world during that kiss, but I do wonder how much they suspected that someone had seen them...
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The points you raise, CrimsonSky, certainly makes me wonder, even though -- like you -- I feel that Ennis and Jack could not have realized then that they had been found out.
When Alma retreated back inside, she almost "slammed" the door behind her. Did not the sound alert Ennis? Was this the reason why he suddenly turned cautious? They were probably too oblivious to the world during that kiss, but I do wonder how much they suspected that someone had seen them...
I don't think Ennis would've noticed if the whole apartment had crashed to the ground while he was kissing Jack, and you can hear them kissing,and the heavy breathing,while Alma is watching, so I don't think the sound of the door would've disturbed them too much ;) I don't think Ennis "suddenly" turned cautious, he just came back down to earth and became aware of his surroundings again after the kiss ??? Just my opinion :) Saying that, they both might have felt self-conscious, not because they actually thought Alma had seen them, but in the way that you do when you've been doing something you shouldn't (or something you just want to keep secret),when you feel like it's written all over your face, even if in reality no-one has a clue ;) Ennis was paranoid about people knowing even when he was just walking down the street, never mind when he'd just been snogging Jack's face off on his own doorstep!
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Ironic really, that he looks over his shoulder to make sure no-one on the street is watching them, but never even thinks of Alma seeing them together. Does he assume she's not interested in him or his friends? But it's only a short time since she made the " going out for dinner" suggestion - and now she's acting like the Snow Queen. I can see why Jack wants to get Ennis away, apart from the obvious - how do you deal with someone so hostile, when you don't know the state of the relationship between her and her husband? By the time they're in the motel, Jack seems to have concluded that she's not an issue and obviously thinks he has a chance of getting Jack away from her. "What are we going to do now?" assumes that he and Ennis are "we" and neither Alma nor Lureen seems to figure in his plans.
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I don't think Ennis would've noticed if the whole apartment had crashed to the ground while he was kissing Jack, and you can hear them kissing,and the heavy breathing,while Alma is watching, so I don't think the sound of the door would've disturbed them too much ;) I don't think Ennis "suddenly" turned cautious, he just came back down to earth and became aware of his surroundings again after the kiss ??? Just my opinion :) Saying that, they both might have felt self-conscious, not because they actually thought Alma had seen them, but in the way that you do when you've been doing something you shouldn't (or something you just want to keep secret),when you feel like it's written all over your face, even if in reality no-one has a clue ;) Ennis was paranoid about people knowing even when he was just walking down the street, never mind when he'd just been snogging Jack's face off on his own doorstep!
I like your explanation very much. es, they must have felt that their love for each other was written all over them. They were bound to be uneasy, given what they knew and what they shared.
Ahh, lovers.
I wonder if Jack had already made up his mind about Alma even before meeting her. As was said earlier, she was his rival. And we know what people tend to think about rivals...
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I can generally think of sixteen slanderous things to say about other women before breakfast - Jack has so to speak hit the jackpot with Lureen, pretty, rich ( or at least with a rich daddy) and knows Alma isn't likely to be anything like that before he sees her - and once he's seen her he has to know that she's not. Ennis's immediate reaction to his arrival, and the haste with which he leaves Alma on her own ( and tied down by the two girls) must add to his impression that she doesn't matter much to Ennis.I think he more or less dismisss her as insignificant from the beginning - and to a degree she is, but not in the way he thinks, She doesn't keep Ennis from Jack - when she's gone he still won't commit., so in a way Jack is right to disregard her, but for the wrong reason.
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I can generally think of sixteen slanderous things to say about other women before breakfast - Jack has so to speak hit the jackpot with Lureen, pretty, rich ( or at least with a rich daddy) and knows Alma isn't likely to be anything like that before he sees her - and once he's seen her he has to know that she's not. Ennis's immediate reaction to his arrival, and the haste with which he leaves Alma on her own ( and tied down by the two girls) must add to his impression that she doesn't matter much to Ennis.I think he more or less dismisss her as insignificant from the beginning - and to a degree she is, but not in the way he thinks, She doesn't keep Ennis from Jack - when she's gone he still won't commit., so in a way Jack is right to disregard her, but for the wrong reason.
In other words, Ennis's fear of their relationship was always the big threat...not Alma.
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Very good point. Thanks.
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Ennis's fears seemed to always be the biggest threat to his relationships.
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Ennis's fears seemed to always be the biggest threat to his relationships.
I do agree. Jack must have realized this, although I think Jack also realized that Ennis marrying Alma was very much a part of Ennis's response to his inner fears. In this sense, Jack must have viewed Alma as a manifestation of Ennis's denial to consider sharing a life with him. It is most apparent in the scene after the divorce, where Jack mistakenly assumes that the divorce with Alma signaled a willingness by Ennis to consider a shared life.
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Yes. I always thought that Ennis married Alma in the first place to try to quell the fear that he had these feelings toward Jack. It was'nt fair to either Jack or Alma. I wonder what Ennis might've done if he did'nt have Alma to hide behind? What would've been his excuse then. His fear and confusion cost alot of people alot of pain. The ideal would have been to explain to Alma that he no longer felt for her what he did before Brokeback. Did'nt have to go into major detail about Jack either, just that he had found someone else etc... Should have let her down easy, then moved on with his life with Jack and not let Jack drive off in that truck. Jack's pleading eyes in that scene stayed with me for a long time.I'm sure Alma would've "gotten over it" with time and met someone else ( Monroe ) who could make her happy too.
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Yes. I always thought that Ennis married Alma in the first place to try to quell the fear that he had these feelings toward Jack. It was'nt fair to either Jack or Alma. I wonder what Ennis might've done if he did'nt have Alma to hide behind? What would've been his excuse then. His fear and confusion cost alot of people alot of pain. The ideal would have been to explain to Alma that he no longer felt for her what he did before Brokeback. Did'nt have to go into major detail about Jack either, just that he had found someone else etc... Should have let her down easy, then moved on with his life with Jack and not let Jack drive off in that truck. Jack's pleading eyes in that scene stayed with me for a long time.I'm sure Alma would've "gotten over it" with time and met someone else ( Monroe ) who could make her happy too.
Interesting question. First, it was certainly Alma. Next, it was all about the girls. Close to the end, it was work. All werevalid reasons, IMO. But it is all to convenient for Ennis to hide behind these and not face his own love for Jack.
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He'd have had the excuse of not having the money, too, if Jack hadn't mentioned what LD would do to buy him off.
But the real stunbling block is his account of seeing the body of Earl - once he's said that, whatever Jack says he can counter with his "two men living together" thing. in this sense Alma is a security blanket - as long as she's there no-one is likely to ask awkward questions and he can present his fishing trips if anything is said as just two old buddie sheading out into the backwoods to fish. He doesn't raise the question of whether people suspect him of being different till he's talking to Jack after the divorce, and we see how jumpy he is when Jack arrives unexpectedly when he gets the message that Ennis is, as he thinks, "free".
If Jack sees her as an obstacle but a not very dangerous one, he's wrong; for Ennis she has to be there in full view as a proof that he's not queer.
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Hi, I'm new here and at first sight thought I was arriving months to late, but apparently there is still some live here :)
I bought the DVD in Belgium this weekend and already watched 3 times and still feeling sad .... very glad to have found this discussion forum.
To me Ennis and Jack were so excited to meet again that everything surrounding them must have been invisible, no difference whether Alma is Alma housewife or Alma Beautyqueen. I don't think Jack really noticed Alma, and if he did probably didn't have thoughts about her; he was just waiting for Ennis. I was impressed by this scene, since the start of suffering of Alma.
I think Ennis loved Alma, but as he has difficulties in talking just couldn't say anything (and certainly somewhere felt miserable being responsible for Alma's suffering => tears at Court for divorce).
With respect to question from Jack about quality of Ennis & Alma life => Wouldn't this be a question hoping for a confirmation that he also loves Jack, would have preferred the 'impossible dream' of living together ?
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Hi, I'm new here and at first sight thought I was arriving months to late, but apparently there is still some live here :)
I bought the DVD in Belgium this weekend and already watched 3 times and still feeling sad .... very glad to have found this discussion forum.
To me Ennis and Jack were so excited to meet again that everything surrounding them must have been invisible, no difference whether Alma is Alma housewife or Alma Beautyqueen. I don't think Jack really noticed Alma, and if he did probably didn't have thoughts about her; he was just waiting for Ennis. I was impressed by this scene, since the start of suffering of Alma.
I think Ennis loved Alma, but as he has difficulties in talking just couldn't say anything (and certainly somewhere felt miserable being responsible for Alma's suffering => tears at Court for divorce).
With respect to question from Jack about quality of Ennis & Alma life => Wouldn't this be a question hoping for a confirmation that he also loves Jack, would have preferred the 'impossible dream' of living together ?
Welcome, PHILCHEL.
I do think that Jack took Ennis's refusal to go along with his plan as tantamount to choosing Alma over him. I think Jack knew that Ennis truly loved him, but that Alma signified a stability that Jack could never offer him. Ennis could hide behind a marriage and a family, and his love for Jack seemingly had no place in society. This realization would not help in improving Jack's overall impression of Alma.
So I think Jack did expect some kind of confirmation, but did not get it. Nonetheless, I think he did also realize that Ennis declined not because he did not love Jack. And the whole story of Earl and Rich was Ennis's attempt to clarify why he could not acquiese to Jack's proposal. It was not about Jack or Alma. It was about fear.
This said, I do agree that Ennis loved Alma and certainly loved his daughters. Human nature can brook multiple loves. The hierarchy is not always obvious.
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I fully agree with you
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Doesn't necessarily have to be a hierarchy either - it's quite possible to love different people in different way all at the same time. Trouble generally starts only when sex gets involved and one participant wants the other to make choices. There would be no way for Alma to accommodate Jack in her life with Ennis, and none for him to accommodate her.However he perceived her, this single time he saw her, she existed and was therefore an obstacle to everything he wanted.
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Did Jack dislike her? Or he simply didn't care? I know that Jack resented her presence in Ennis's life, but is that sufficient grounds for dislike? After all, he hardly knew her, and after the divorce, she relly was not the main impediment between him and Ennis.
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Your right . There is such a thing as loving someone , and then there is being IN LOVE with someone . Ennis obviously loved Alma at some point, enough to plan a life together with her. IMO it was based on what was expected of him to do His brother and sister had married and ennis felt that this is just what a man does. We were not privy to the relationship between Alma and Ennis until the wedding, the rest is up to us as veiwers of the movie to fill in the blanks as to their relationship before the wedding. He may have been pressured to live up to tradition. Anyway he went on to have a family with this woman, after I wonder how many times he thought about backing out. He Did not seem happy at the wedding. All this would feel different to Ennis had he never met Jack, but he did meet him and IMO fell in love with him. More in love than anything he felt for Alma. For four long years I think Ennis just went through the motions of the marriage for several prposes
1. It provided a smokescreen from being "queer" ( could'nt face it) .
2. It provided safety ( no one had reason to come after him and Alma with the tireiron)
3. To convince Jack that it was over after Brokeback ( it was'nt) and Jack knew it .
4 Because he loved her. ( but no real emotion or passion, he pretened she was Jack in bed)!!
With Jack, he had the emotion, the passion,, that love that does'nt fade away with time , the longing evident in the reunion kiss when he practically devoured Jack. Four f#ckin long years of pent up feelings surfaces.It's obvious at this point that Ennis is deeply in love with Jack. Alma was just another excuse for Ennis to use against himself .. He eventually got to that point of accepting his feelings when he said " aint no reins on this one. .......This one? what about the other one? No match, no comparson with the love he had with Jack F, Twist.
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Well said. There can be many loves coexisting side by side. The fact that the marriage also served a purpose (the way you enumerated it) does not invalidate a love that Ennis had for Alma. Besides, Alma's relationship with Ennis had precedence, although Jack consumated the relationship first. Even before Brokeback, Ennis either genuinely felt love for Alma or made himself believe that he was in love with Alma. Either way, it did end up as love. Jack must have realized this early on, or assumed it as a given.
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Tpe, It's MO that after he met her and saw the obvious dislike for him in her eyes , and the life they had, I don't think he thought much of her. She had everything he wanted . A life with Ennis . Not a good stable one though. He felt she was the cause of Ennis not having the life he wanted. " You and Alma ? that's a life?" Jack knew that living above the laundry would result in nothing more for Ennis than a clean pair of jeans . He knew Ennis was'nt happy there , having a dream of owning his own spread someday. Some one who's used to ranching and farming, not stuck up in a cramped little apartment without a cow or a horse in sight. She wanted to live there and at her suggestion he went along to please her. Even though he hardly knew her, he knew she disliked him and she was'nt making Ennis happy. for this reason alone I think he disliked her and resented her for 4 wasted years. Just my opinion.
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So you do think Jack resented her very much -- even after the divorce. After all, she still loomed large in Ennis's excuses in the form of their daughters and his duty to them. Alma had custody of them, so that she still dictated the compass of Enis's life in a very real sense.
Jack certainly had all the reasons to resent Alma. And yet, other than that one statement "You and Alma...", I did not think Jack revealed such feelings to Ennis. I guess it remained an unmentionable...
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When Jack made that "that's a life" Ennis immediately defended Alma. "This ain't her fault." If you're involved in an affair ( which is what Ennis is) without your husband/wife having done anything to justify your other involvement ( except being, through no fault of their own, the wrong person) , you suffer from guilt. ennis knows what he's doing and knows he's betraying Alma. Thus when she's attacked he leaps to her defence out of guilt. Jack sees this and retreats - he doesn't mention Alma again because whatever he says will be the wrong thing. But underneath he must resent the hold she has over Ennis - the girls, and the need for money to pay child-support, so that Ennis can;t even think of saving for a place of his own.
Sure, if LD comes up with enough to set them up that would be OK if it happens and if Ennis wants to be the poor relation in the partnership, and he may not want to. Alma has put him in this position - why wouldn't Jack resent her? I would.
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Don't forget Ennis said that it's because of Jack that he was confronted to such situation, so he probably didn't really know feeling for a man before meeting Jack.
That's why I think he really loved Alma and was OK with his life (didn't know better).
I don't think Jack sees Alma as an obstacle or 'controlling Ennis'; it's just Ennis not being able to change live. I respect a lot Alma who finally takes the decision to leave Ennis, knowing she still loves him a lot (must not have been easy at that time/place to be a divorcing woman).
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I'm assuming alot here but I bet that over the years Jack often thought about where Ennis and he would be if Ennis had'nt married Alma in the first place. I bet he thought that things would be so much easier if only he could.ve convinced Ennis not marry her, and a part of him resented her even more. In the scene at the end ehere they argue Jack speaks of what could've been " a place of our own" etc.... he finnally voiced his frustration at Ennis himself and rightfully so. Ennis had been the main culprit in all this by not accepting the fact that he was in love with Jack in the first place.
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Do you think so ?
Even if Ennis would have been free he probably would not have accepted a 'relationship', since even if this are his feeling he still finds them 'unnatural/unacceptable'. What he saw as a young boy (and probably his relationship with his father - which I can just guess) being the main reason.
Even when already divorced he could still have accepted Jack's offer to move to Texas, but he didn't.
There are so many people like Ennis still today, caught in a 'woman-man' relation and no gutts to go for their real love ... and they indeed are the main source of their 'suffering', but easy to say when you are not in that situation where 'taking the risk' could cost you a lot ...
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Yes, this is so true. For Ennis to "come out " as far as he did ( the reunion kiss) with Jack was a strech for him. He was so Inward with his feelins partly due to his childhood nightmare of Earl and Ray, imposed on him by his father. As a child being shaped and molded to conform to a culture that stifled emotions in men, he withdrew. This is where Jack was so important to him and his life . Highspirted, outgoing, and aggressive Ennis saw in Jack a man who went after what he wanted. unlike himself, not afraid to take chances, even though they did'nt pay off a lot of the time.
Jack's handling of rejection did'nt shut him down like it did Ennis whereas Ennis's idea of dealing with rejection was turning it inward into himself and he went off somewhere and brooded and sulked over it alone. Punishing himself came easy for him. Being with Jack comforted him I beleive because he knew Jack would'nt reject him no matter how much he punished and hated himself. This is very evident after FNIT. Jack knew and understood Ennis very well.
Following the divorce even Jack, with all his hopefullness began to realized that Ennis was going to be a harder nut to crack than even he thought possible. Alma was now out of the picture and yet he still could'nt completly break Ennis, But because of his love for em, he still did'nt give up. Regrettably he went to Mexico seeking the sexual comforting he needed from Ennis that weekend , and maybe promises of a new life for both.. He was also mad as hell and this was a way to punish Ennis for rejecting him. I wanted to slap some sense into Ennis during this scene.ARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!! How in the hell could anyone turn this dream down with such a cutie. Crazy! and Unfortunate. Shit , I'm rambling again. My 2 cents.
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Wonderful exchange.
Although I personally feel that Jack could NOT have liked Alma, I do agree that Alma was not the main stumbling block -- she was a symptom of the main problem: Ennis's trauma and fears.
And I do think that she did indeed love him, and endured so much because of that love. It left her embittered. It probably left her broken inside.
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You're a romantic; I'm not, over Alma at least. I reckon Jack's impression of her was pretty much of what she was and I think she stayed with Ennis because she had no alternative - when she found one she left him.
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Ala had no way of knowing what was gonna happen . No doubt she was hurt in this.
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You're a romantic; I'm not, over Alma at least. I reckon Jack's impression of her was pretty much of what she was and I think she stayed with Ennis because she had no alternative - when she found one she left him.
Apologies: I read my last post and realized a typo. I personally believe that Jack could NOT have liked Alma. I edited the said post.
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I dunno what Jack expected Alma to be like but i think he was rather surprised to find a nice and normal looking girl and I think he would have gotten along quite well with her under different circumstances.
Concerning that 'you and Alma, that's a life?' comment i think Jack was judging and seeing it from his and Laureens perspective (meaning his life with Laureen was no life and it's gotta be the same for Ennis)
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I think, having seen Alma and where and how she and Ennis live, he's implying that living with Alma can't begin to compare with what Ennis could have if they shared a life with each other. His marriageis pretty much a formality, but from what he's seen of Ennis's, and the way Ennis has left his family whenever possible to be with him, his only problem being how to fit that in wwith his job - he never mentions alma and the girls - I reckon Jack thinks Ennis's marriage is as much an empty shell as his own.
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I'm assuming alot here but I bet that over the years Jack often thought about where Ennis and he would be if Ennis had'nt married Alma in the first place. I bet he thought that things would be so much easier if only he could.ve convinced Ennis not marry her, and a part of him resented her even more. In the scene at the end ehere they argue Jack speaks of what could've been " a place of our own" etc.... he finnally voiced his frustration at Ennis himself and rightfully so. Ennis had been the main culprit in all this by not accepting the fact that he was in love with Jack in the first place.
I agree with this. In the idealistic mind of Jack Twist, initially it was Alma that stood in the way of his relationship with Ennis. Naturally he resented her. It wasn't until the scene after the divorce when Jack finally realizes that it wasn't Alma standing in the way, it was Ennis himself.
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I'm assuming alot here but I bet that over the years Jack often thought about where Ennis and he would be if Ennis had'nt married Alma in the first place. I bet he thought that things would be so much easier if only he could.ve convinced Ennis not marry her, and a part of him resented her even more. In the scene at the end ehere they argue Jack speaks of what could've been " a place of our own" etc.... he finnally voiced his frustration at Ennis himself and rightfully so. Ennis had been the main culprit in all this by not accepting the fact that he was in love with Jack in the first place.
I agree with this. In the idealistic mind of Jack Twist, initially it was Alma that stood in the way of his relationship with Ennis. Naturally he resented her. It wasn't until the scene after the divorce when Jack finally realizes that it wasn't Alma standing in the way, it was Ennis himself.
Yes, I do think Jack only gradually realized that Alma was a symptom, and not the root of the problem.