Topic: Jack's impression of Alma

[tpe]

I think Ennis was real proud that Jack had a son. He was beaming in response.

I think this also was partly the reason.

[tpe]

I'm wondering why Jack chose not to return to the apartment  with Ennis instead stayed outside, while Ennis packed for the trip to the mountains the next morning. Must've got some bad vibes from Alma. huh? Texans DO drink coffee, it's just that this one  did'nt want to drink it with her for some reason . IMO he was either being respectfully discreet, or could'nt face her agan after screwing her husband's brains out the night before. What's up with that? Does the SS deal with this? I read it but it's been awhile. I can't believe Alma actually wanted Jack in for coffee and pleasant conversation  did she?Ennis cracked me up with his " he's from Texas" comment.they did go to a resturant,where I'm sure they had coffee.

I suspect that Ennis probably dissuaded him, if he had such an intention.  I am sure Jack didn't mind that.

[welshwitch]

I also suspect that Ennis, if he's anything like most men, wants to pack as qiuickly and as little as possible, so he isn't going to be in the apartment long. Both he and Jack want to get away, anyway, out of  town where he might be recognized and talked about in Ennis's case, and just away with only Ennis in Jack's case. I hardly think he'd want to waste time on making polite conversation with Alma when he knows they  have only a few days together to look forward to. When you're in love and full of desire the rest of the world often seems a troublesome intrusion and irrelevance.

[aintfoolin]

Yes he was proud that Jack had a son. It also reinforced the idea that Jack was just an old fishing buddy with a great family and nothing more . Of course Alma was'nt   buying any of  it. It stuck with me that Jack would use the words "smiles alot lot"  while Alma's standing there mad enough to chew nails. That's odd to me . Seems Jack had to know that she had figured  something out from the look on Alma's face. why else would she be  staring at him with such distain in her eyes  He  is suppose to be Ennis's best friend who'd driven all the way from Texas to see his good "friend " right? .I mean  what other reason in Jack's mind  would  Alma have for such rude behavior towards  her husband's   closest  best freind  ?. I think these questions entered Jack's mind, but at that point I don't think he nor Ennis gave a damn , made polite small talk with her and got the hell on as soon as he coluld.. Shit,  When he  looked down with that hat down low it was a cue  that this conversation was over and the " Look here  Ennis I'm done so let's just get the  F##ck outta here asap" look was telling.

[welshwitch]

The whole situation is fraught anyway. Here's this so-called fishing buddy who's turned up out of the blue after Alma's been married for nearly four years and all they want is to get away from her with the most perfunctory nods to normal courtesy - even if she hadn't seen the kiss she might have found it a little odd. Earlier she's made the suggestion about all going out for a meal, which might be more normal. And I agree, asintfooln, the look on alma's face is pretty hard for Jack to understand without knowing what caused it - i know women often resent their husbands' drinking buddies, but this was the first time in four years Jack's appeared, so why, from his POV, would she look so hostile?

[aintfoolin]

Maybe in Jack's mind He felt there may be a strong  possibillity that Alma had seen their kissfest. And to avoid a confrontation ,( which most likely would not have happened) He was'nt takin any chances and vacated the premises as soon as he could.........with Ennis in tow of course. I think he knew she knew. I think that Jack may have been on a mission after Ennis answered the postcard. He came there hopfuully to claim what was his. He was'nt sure what he'd encounter when he got there, but he knew Ennis was still married to Alma at the time, but was not deterred from his plan.To his suprise when Ennis kissed him the way he did, all Jack's questions were answerd and Alma 's significance moved further out of the picture. He knew Ennis still loved him. Unfortunately he learned later that it was'nt Alma that proved to be the bigger obstacle, but Ennis himself. Poor Jack

[tpe]

I also suspect that Ennis, if he's anything like most men, wants to pack as qiuickly and as little as possible, so he isn't going to be in the apartment long. Both he and Jack want to get away, anyway, out of  town where he might be recognized and talked about in Ennis's case, and just away with only Ennis in Jack's case. I hardly think he'd want to waste time on making polite conversation with Alma when he knows they  have only a few days together to look forward to. When you're in love and full of desire the rest of the world often seems a troublesome intrusion and irrelevance.

Yes, this is certainly a common "fault" among lovers.  Their mutual friends are usually the first to suffer this.

If Alma were just a good friend to Ennis, would Jack have treated her differently?  I suspect not. 

 

[tpe]

Yes he was proud that Jack had a son. It also reinforced the idea that Jack was just an old fishing buddy with a great family and nothing more . Of course Alma was'nt   buying any of  it. It stuck with me that Jack would use the words "smiles alot lot"  while Alma's standing there mad enough to chew nails. That's odd to me . Seems Jack had to know that she had figured  something out from the look on Alma's face. why else would she be  staring at him with such distain in her eyes  He  is suppose to be Ennis's best friend who'd driven all the way from Texas to see his good "friend " right? .I mean  what other reason in Jack's mind  would  Alma have for such rude behavior towards  her husband's   closest  best freind  ?. I think these questions entered Jack's mind, but at that point I don't think he nor Ennis gave a damn , made polite small talk with her and got the hell on as soon as he coluld.. Shit,  When he  looked down with that hat down low it was a cue  that this conversation was over and the " Look here  Ennis I'm done so let's just get the  F##ck outta here asap" look was telling.

Very interesting thoughts, aintfoolin.  I somehow got the same feeling, but was not so sure how best to elucidate it.  But I did get a feeling that Jack (and even Ennis) somehow sensed that all was not right with her. 

I don't know whether this is just me reading too much.  That is quite possible.

[tpe]

Maybe in Jack's mind He felt there may be a strong  possibillity that Alma had seen their kissfest. And to avoid a confrontation ,( which most likely would not have happened) He was'nt takin any chances and vacated the premises as soon as he could.........with Ennis in tow of course. I think he knew she knew. I think that Jack may have been on a mission after Ennis answered the postcard. He came there hopfuully to claim what was his. He was'nt sure what he'd encounter when he got there, but he knew Ennis was still married to Alma at the time, but was not deterred from his plan.To his suprise when Ennis kissed him the way he did, all Jack's questions were answerd and Alma 's significance moved further out of the picture. He knew Ennis still loved him. Unfortunately he learned later that it was'nt Alma that proved to be the bigger obstacle, but Ennis himself. Poor Jack

You know, I had wondered if both of them considered of the possibility of Alma seeing them kiss. Although I find it unlikely, I can't discount that both might have had a SUSPICION that something was not entirely right. 

Besides, Ennis remained careless after that.  Could he have just assumed that Alma knew at some point and that he expected her not to bring it all out in the open?  In the thanksgiving scene, Ennis seemed to be angry more because Alma dared to bring it all out in the open -- rather than because she knew about him and Jack.

[CrimsonSky]

Yes he was proud that Jack had a son. It also reinforced the idea that Jack was just an old fishing buddy with a great family and nothing more . Of course Alma was'nt   buying any of  it. It stuck with me that Jack would use the words "smiles alot lot"  while Alma's standing there mad enough to chew nails. That's odd to me . Seems Jack had to know that she had figured  something out from the look on Alma's face. why else would she be  staring at him with such distain in her eyes  He  is suppose to be Ennis's best friend who'd driven all the way from Texas to see his good "friend " right? .I mean  what other reason in Jack's mind  would  Alma have for such rude behavior towards  her husband's   closest  best freind  ?. I think these questions entered Jack's mind, but at that point I don't think he nor Ennis gave a damn , made polite small talk with her and got the hell on as soon as he coluld.. Shit,  When he  looked down with that hat down low it was a cue  that this conversation was over and the " Look here  Ennis I'm done so let's just get the  F##ck outta here asap" look was telling.

Very interesting thoughts, aintfoolin.  I somehow got the same feeling, but was not so sure how best to elucidate it.  But I did get a feeling that Jack (and even Ennis) somehow sensed that all was not right with her. 

I don't know whether this is just me reading too much.  That is quite possible.

I've always thought the "smiles a lot" comment seemed to be aimed at Alma, as if Jack was mentally adding "you ever heard of smiling?" I'm not sure that either Ennis or Jack felt that Alma had seen them kissing though.I agree Alma's frostiness towards Jack isn't normal for someone just meeting an old friend of their husband's, most people would at least be more welcoming, invite the friend in for a drink, etc, but while, as far as Jack knows, Alma has no reason to dislike Jack, Jack has plenty of reason to dislike Alma, going back to them leaving Brokeback ("you gonna do this again next summer?" "Me and Alma's getting married in November").Ok, it's not Alma's fault, but Jack wouldn't be human if he didn't resent Alma for being the reason he'd had to wait four f***ing years for that kiss. There's always tension, or a sort of instinctive antipathy, when two people meet who have a partner in common, whether it's in the past or not, and whilst Jack didn't know that Alma knew, his instinct was to dislike her and subconsciously expected her to feel the same way about him. It's Ennis that I find hard to fathom, because he seems oblivious to the fact that Alma was talking earlier about taking Jack for a meal, and yet now she can hardly bring herself to even speak to him, you'd think he would've noticed her change in attitude, but I guess he still hadn't come back down to earth from that kiss, or just from seeing Jack again, the way he rushes out the door like it's raining money outside the minute he sees Jack,it's like he's forgotten Alma even exists, never mind what she might think. 

[tpe]

The points you raise, CrimsonSky, certainly makes me wonder, even though -- like you -- I feel that Ennis and Jack could not have realized then that they had been found out.

When Alma retreated back inside, she almost "slammed" the door behind her.  Did not the sound alert Ennis?  Was this the reason why he suddenly turned cautious?  They were probably too oblivious to the world during that kiss, but I do wonder how much they suspected that someone had seen them...

[CrimsonSky]

The points you raise, CrimsonSky, certainly makes me wonder, even though -- like you -- I feel that Ennis and Jack could not have realized then that they had been found out.

When Alma retreated back inside, she almost "slammed" the door behind her.  Did not the sound alert Ennis?  Was this the reason why he suddenly turned cautious?  They were probably too oblivious to the world during that kiss, but I do wonder how much they suspected that someone had seen them...

I don't think Ennis would've noticed if the whole apartment had crashed to the ground while he was kissing Jack, and you can hear them kissing,and the heavy breathing,while Alma is watching, so I don't think the sound of the door would've disturbed them too much I don't think Ennis "suddenly" turned cautious, he just came back down to earth and became aware of his surroundings again after the kiss Just my opinion Saying that, they both might have felt self-conscious, not because they actually thought Alma had seen them, but in the way that you do when you've been doing something you shouldn't (or something you just want to keep secret),when you feel like it's written all over your face, even if in reality no-one has a clue Ennis was paranoid about people knowing even when he was just walking down the street, never mind when he'd just been snogging Jack's face off on his own doorstep!

[welshwitch]

Ironic really, that he looks over his shoulder to make sure no-one on the street is watching them, but never even thinks of Alma seeing them together. Does he assume she's not interested in him or his friends? But it's only a short time since she made the " going out for dinner" suggestion - and now she's acting like the Snow Queen. I can see why Jack wants to get Ennis away, apart from the obvious - how do you deal with someone so hostile, when you don't know the state of the relationship between her and her husband? By the time they're in the motel, Jack seems to have concluded that she's not an issue and obviously thinks he has a chance of getting Jack away from her. "What are we going to do now?" assumes that he and Ennis are "we" and neither Alma nor Lureen seems to figure in his plans.

[tpe]

I don't think Ennis would've noticed if the whole apartment had crashed to the ground while he was kissing Jack, and you can hear them kissing,and the heavy breathing,while Alma is watching, so I don't think the sound of the door would've disturbed them too much I don't think Ennis "suddenly" turned cautious, he just came back down to earth and became aware of his surroundings again after the kiss Just my opinion Saying that, they both might have felt self-conscious, not because they actually thought Alma had seen them, but in the way that you do when you've been doing something you shouldn't (or something you just want to keep secret),when you feel like it's written all over your face, even if in reality no-one has a clue Ennis was paranoid about people knowing even when he was just walking down the street, never mind when he'd just been snogging Jack's face off on his own doorstep!

I like your explanation very much.  es, they must have felt that their love for each other was written all over them.  They were bound to be uneasy, given what they knew and what they shared.

Ahh, lovers. 

I wonder if Jack had already made up his mind about Alma even before meeting her.  As was said earlier, she was his rival.  And we know what people tend to think about rivals...

[welshwitch]

I can generally think of sixteen slanderous things to say about other women before breakfast - Jack has so to speak hit the jackpot with Lureen, pretty, rich ( or at least with a rich daddy) and knows Alma isn't likely to be anything like that before he sees her - and once he's seen her he has to know that she's not. Ennis's immediate reaction to his arrival, and the haste with which he leaves Alma on her own ( and tied down by the two girls) must add to his impression that she doesn't matter much to Ennis.I think he more or less dismisss her as insignificant from the beginning - and to a degree she is, but not in the way he thinks, She doesn't keep Ennis from Jack - when she's gone he still won't commit., so in a way Jack is right to disregard her, but for the wrong reason.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

I can generally think of sixteen slanderous things to say about other women before breakfast - Jack has so to speak hit the jackpot with Lureen, pretty, rich ( or at least with a rich daddy) and knows Alma isn't likely to be anything like that before he sees her - and once he's seen her he has to know that she's not. Ennis's immediate reaction to his arrival, and the haste with which he leaves Alma on her own ( and tied down by the two girls) must add to his impression that she doesn't matter much to Ennis.I think he more or less dismisss her as insignificant from the beginning - and to a degree she is, but not in the way he thinks, She doesn't keep Ennis from Jack - when she's gone he still won't commit., so in a way Jack is right to disregard her, but for the wrong reason.

In other words, Ennis's fear of their relationship was always the big threat...not Alma.

[tpe]

Very good point.  Thanks.

[greenfrog]

Ennis's fears seemed to always be the biggest threat to his relationships.

[tpe]

Ennis's fears seemed to always be the biggest threat to his relationships.

I do agree.  Jack must have realized this, although I think Jack also realized that Ennis marrying Alma was very much a part of Ennis's response to his inner fears.  In this sense, Jack must have viewed Alma as a manifestation of Ennis's denial to consider sharing a life with him.  It is most apparent in the scene after the divorce, where Jack mistakenly assumes that the divorce with Alma signaled a willingness by Ennis to consider a shared life.

[aintfoolin]

Yes. I always thought that Ennis married Alma in the first place to try to quell the fear that he had these feelings toward Jack. It was'nt fair to either Jack or Alma. I wonder what Ennis might've done if he did'nt have Alma to hide behind? What would've been his excuse then. His fear and confusion cost alot of people alot of pain. The ideal would have been to explain to Alma that he no longer felt for her what he did before Brokeback. Did'nt have to go into major detail about Jack either, just that he had found someone else etc... Should have let her down easy, then moved on with his life with Jack and not let Jack drive off in that truck. Jack's pleading eyes in that scene stayed with me for a long time.I'm sure Alma would've "gotten over it" with time and met someone else ( Monroe ) who could make her happy too.

[tpe]

Yes. I always thought that Ennis married Alma in the first place to try to quell the fear that he had these feelings toward Jack. It was'nt fair to either Jack or Alma. I wonder what Ennis might've done if he did'nt have Alma to hide behind? What would've been his excuse then. His fear and confusion cost alot of people alot of pain. The ideal would have been to explain to Alma that he no longer felt for her what he did before Brokeback. Did'nt have to go into major detail about Jack either, just that he had found someone else etc... Should have let her down easy, then moved on with his life with Jack and not let Jack drive off in that truck. Jack's pleading eyes in that scene stayed with me for a long time.I'm sure Alma would've "gotten over it" with time and met someone else ( Monroe ) who could make her happy too.

Interesting question.  First, it was certainly Alma.  Next, it was all about the girls.  Close to the end, it was work.  All werevalid reasons, IMO.  But it is all to convenient for Ennis to hide behind these and not face his own love for Jack.

[welshwitch]

He'd have had the excuse of not having the money, too, if Jack hadn't mentioned what LD would do to buy him off.

But the real stunbling block is his account of seeing the body of Earl - once he's said that, whatever Jack says he can counter with his "two men living together" thing. in this sense Alma is a security blanket - as long as she's there no-one is likely to ask awkward questions and he can present his fishing trips if anything is said as just two old buddie sheading out into the backwoods to fish. He doesn't raise the question of whether people suspect him of being different till he's talking to Jack after the divorce, and we see how jumpy he is when Jack arrives unexpectedly when he gets the message that Ennis is, as he thinks, "free".

If Jack sees her as an obstacle but a not very dangerous one, he's wrong; for Ennis she has to be there in full view as a proof that he's not queer.

[Philchel]

Hi, I'm new here and at first sight thought I was arriving months to late, but apparently there is still some live here 

I bought the DVD in Belgium this weekend and already watched 3 times and still feeling sad .... very glad to have found this discussion forum.

To me Ennis and Jack were so excited to meet again that everything surrounding them must have been invisible, no difference whether Alma is Alma housewife or Alma Beautyqueen.  I don't think Jack really noticed Alma, and if he did probably didn't have thoughts about her; he was just waiting for Ennis.  I was impressed by this scene, since the start of suffering of Alma.

I think Ennis loved Alma, but as he has difficulties in talking just couldn't say anything (and certainly somewhere felt miserable being responsible for Alma's suffering => tears at Court for divorce).

With respect to question from Jack about quality of Ennis & Alma life => Wouldn't this be a question hoping for a confirmation that he also loves Jack, would have preferred the 'impossible dream' of living together  ?


 

[tpe]

Hi, I'm new here and at first sight thought I was arriving months to late, but apparently there is still some live here 

I bought the DVD in Belgium this weekend and already watched 3 times and still feeling sad .... very glad to have found this discussion forum.

To me Ennis and Jack were so excited to meet again that everything surrounding them must have been invisible, no difference whether Alma is Alma housewife or Alma Beautyqueen.  I don't think Jack really noticed Alma, and if he did probably didn't have thoughts about her; he was just waiting for Ennis.  I was impressed by this scene, since the start of suffering of Alma.

I think Ennis loved Alma, but as he has difficulties in talking just couldn't say anything (and certainly somewhere felt miserable being responsible for Alma's suffering => tears at Court for divorce).

With respect to question from Jack about quality of Ennis & Alma life => Wouldn't this be a question hoping for a confirmation that he also loves Jack, would have preferred the 'impossible dream' of living together  ?

Welcome, PHILCHEL.

I do think that Jack took Ennis's refusal to go along with his plan as tantamount to choosing Alma over him.  I think Jack knew that Ennis truly loved him, but that Alma signified a stability that Jack could never offer him.  Ennis could hide behind a marriage and a family, and his love for Jack seemingly had no place in society.  This realization would not help in improving Jack's overall impression of Alma. 

So I think Jack did expect some kind of confirmation, but did not get it.  Nonetheless, I think he did also realize that Ennis declined not because he did not love Jack.  And the whole story of Earl and Rich was Ennis's attempt to clarify why he could not acquiese to Jack's proposal.  It was not about Jack or Alma.  It was about fear.

This said, I do agree that Ennis loved Alma and certainly loved his daughters.  Human nature can brook multiple loves.  The hierarchy is not always obvious.

 

[Philchel]

I fully agree with you

[welshwitch]

Doesn't necessarily have to be a hierarchy either - it's quite possible to love different people in different way all at the same time. Trouble generally starts only when sex gets involved and one participant wants the other to make choices. There would be no way for Alma to accommodate Jack in her life with Ennis, and none for him to accommodate her.However he perceived her, this single time he saw her, she existed and was therefore an obstacle to everything he wanted.

[tpe]

Did Jack dislike her?  Or he simply didn't care?  I know that Jack resented her presence in Ennis's life, but is that sufficient grounds for dislike?  After all, he hardly knew her, and after the divorce, she relly was not the main impediment between him and Ennis.

[aintfoolin]

Your right . There is such a thing as loving someone , and then there is being IN LOVE with someone . Ennis obviously loved Alma at some point, enough to  plan a life together with her. IMO it was based on what  was expected of him to do His brother and sister had married and ennis felt that this is just what a  man does. We were not privy to the relationship between Alma and Ennis until the wedding, the rest is up to us as veiwers of the movie to fill in the blanks as to their relationship   before the wedding. He may have been pressured to live up to tradition. Anyway he went on  to have a family with this woman, after I wonder how many times he thought about backing out. He Did not seem happy at the wedding. All this would feel different to Ennis had he never met Jack, but he did  meet him and IMO fell in love with him. More in love than anything he felt for Alma. For four long years I think Ennis just went through the motions of  the marriage for several prposes
 1. It provided a smokescreen from being "queer" ( could'nt face it) .
 2. It provided safety ( no one had reason to come after him and Alma with the tireiron)
 3. To convince Jack that it was over after Brokeback ( it was'nt)  and Jack knew it .
 4 Because he loved her.  ( but no real emotion or passion, he pretened she was Jack in bed)!!


 With Jack,  he had the emotion, the passion,, that love that does'nt fade away with time , the longing evident in the reunion kiss when he practically devoured Jack. Four f#ckin long   years of pent up feelings surfaces.It's obvious at this point that Ennis is deeply in love with Jack. Alma was just another excuse for Ennis to use against himself .. He eventually got to  that point of accepting his feelings when he said " aint no reins on this one. .......This one?   what about the other one? No match, no comparson with the love he had with Jack F, Twist.
 

[tpe]

Well said.  There can be many loves coexisting side by side.   The fact that the marriage also served a purpose (the way you enumerated it) does not invalidate a love that Ennis had for Alma.  Besides, Alma's relationship with Ennis had precedence, although Jack consumated the relationship first.   Even before Brokeback, Ennis either genuinely felt love for Alma or made himself believe that he was in love with Alma.  Either way, it did end up as love.  Jack must have realized this early on, or assumed it as a given. 

[aintfoolin]

 Tpe, It's  MO that after he met her and saw the obvious dislike for him in her eyes , and the life they had,  I don't think he thought much of her. She had everything he wanted . A life with Ennis . Not a good stable one though. He felt she was the cause of Ennis not having the life he wanted.  " You and Alma ? that's a life?"  Jack knew that living above the laundry would result in nothing  more for Ennis  than a clean pair of jeans . He knew  Ennis was'nt happy there , having a dream of owning his own spread someday. Some one who's used to ranching and farming, not stuck up in a cramped little apartment without a cow or a horse in sight.  She wanted to live there and at her suggestion he went along to please her. Even though he hardly knew her, he knew she disliked him and she was'nt making Ennis happy. for this reason  alone I think he disliked her and resented  her for 4 wasted years. Just my opinion.