Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: aintfoolin on Dec 06, 2006, 07:17 AM
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I like to take a nip every so often but there are several scenes where Jack and Ennis go through bottles. Did they have a problem? Did Jack really dream of" whiskey springs"? As far as I can tell Aguirre supplied the booze. Great boss, or enabler?
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I think this was how it was in those times, to manage to do these kindas of jobs they drank, and the bosses knew that. Unfortunatly that much dinking in young years, and coupled with miserable lives, led to excess drinking the rest of the time. And htey did have miserable lives when they weren't together so drinking became an escape I guess
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And I do also think they needed the whiskey to stay warm. It was probably the main justification for supplying them with this type of strong drink, no?
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Yes, whiskey will keep u warm until it "wears out" then u'll freeze... like Ennis in FNIT ;)
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Thank God ithe fire died and the warm of the whiskey wore off. But then again, Jack knew what he was doing... ;)
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That is my guess too tpe lol
But I think this was the way it was done to make sure the hired hands staeyed on the job, and mayby to get them to come back the next year, my guess is it might still be like this
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True. Aguirre could probably cut their bean or spud rations with impunity. But I don't think the hired hands would have tolerated a cut in the whiskey supply. It was their main source of diversion -- after the sceneery, perhaps. :)
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Also has its uses if you cut yourself - can be used to clean up a wound as Jack did with Ennis's face.They were hardly going to carry a first-aid kit up there.
And of course beer is wonderful for rinsing your hair - gives it body and bounce - but maybe they weren't thinking of that.
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I think Jack definitely did have a "problem". Lureen even says so - "He drank a lot". First thing he and Ennis did was to go to a bar, Jack's idea. Just thinking about all the scenes with Jack, there's a bottle in most of them. I've always intrepreted this as Jack's way of trying to avoid his sexual preference or confusion.
This brings to mind one of the most intriguing aspects of the Ledger's magnificent character interpretation, did you ever notice how after being thrown from the horse when Jack hands him the whiskey bottle he kinda' shakes it a little as if to mix up the contents then takes a swig? Then 20 years later when sitting 'round the (last) campfire with Jack and sharing the bottle of "Old Rose" whiskey he makes exactly the same small shaking gesture with the bottle. Don't know if this was intentional or just one of those things that Heath does, but it sure cemented the impression that this was the same guy, 20 years later. Pretty good, huh?
jackster
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I think both were pretty good drinkers, although I think Jack had more experience, given Ennis's early methodist upbringing.
I think Jack's drinking problem is not really tied to an avoidance of his sexual preference and to any sexual confusion -- in fact, I think he seems to be pretty comfortable about it, especially when he is compared to Ennis. IMO, the drinking problem has always been tied to his being unable to get Ennis to commit to a life together. I also think that THAT was the context of Lureen's comment:
"We herded sheep on Brokeback one summer,” said Ennis. He could hardly speak.
“Well, he said it was his place. I thought he meant to get drunk. Drink whiskey up there. He drank a lot.”
(Proulx -- Brokeback Mountain, 1997)
Of course, Brokeback Mountain for Jack was synonymous with Ennis. Drink became the only way for Jack to survive the long stretches without Ennis.
There is a stark beauty in that tense exchange between Lureen and Ennis. It was the point at which Lureen realizes who Ennis was. Her comment about Jack drinking a lot hints at his unhappiness. But we know that his request that his ashes be scattered on BBM did not mean that he wanted to get drunk.
It meant that he wanted to be with Ennis forever.
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I agree with you . Jack's drinking had to do with his inability to snag Ennis into a commitment. I also noticed in a later scene Jack and Ennis smoked a joint of weed together. What's up with that? The way Ennis flicked off the ash tells me that he's done this before. ;) Just my opinion.
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I think the pot smoking was simply to show them in the context of the 60s, 70s, and early 80s. Like the drinking, it must have been a social thing between the two of them. I suspect that Jack was the source, as I would have imagined tobacco to be cheaper then and Ennis did not seem to go for such luxuries.
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Jack+Ennis+whiskey+weed =one wild sexual encounter! ~) I'm still dreamin folks. It's free ok? >:D ;).
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Yeah I feel alcohol was a big plot devise but based on reality. Jack was frustrated in his life ,and more confined than Ennis really (remember by end Ennis was at least living alone, Jack lived with Lureen) But also yeah in 60's 70's everyone drank and smoked even.
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Yeah I feel alcohol was a big plot devise but based on reality. Jack was frustrated in his life ,and more confined than Ennis really (remember by end Ennis was at least living alone, Jack lived with Lureen) But also yeah in 60's 70's everyone drank and smoked even.
So true. Jack "needed" the alcohol more to forget.
Ennis was given a way out by Alma since she petitioned for the divorce. Jack must have felt trapped. But why didn't he consider divorce outright long ago. My suspicion is that he would not divorce so long as he didn't have Ennis to commit to a life together. In the beginning, his marriage probably did not matter than much. In the end, it must have rankled...
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Yes I think Jack needed the security more than Ennis. Ennis accepts his lonliness easier.
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Yes I think Jack needed the security more than Ennis. Ennis accepts his lonliness easier.
That is another good point. Ennis certainly put a stoic face to loneliness, something that Jack never could do, on account of his emotiveness.
Is a prison a prison if that was the only world you ever knew? This may be extreme, but I think it contains the essence of the argument.
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I think both Ennis & Jack were heavy drinkers and smokers. That's just how they are.
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I guess far more people smoked in the 60s and 70s than now - even I smoked for a whole year when I had a boyfriend who bought cigarettes for me - when I had to buy my own I stopped. I guess people in Jack's and Ennis's position drank too - how else would you get through the time on the mountain, specially when it was cold, wet and incomfortable? And teenagers, which is what they are at that point, often drink as a way of showing that they're adults. In Ennis's case, it could also have been a reaction against his upbringing, I guess; in Jack's I'd have thought he started on the rodeo circuit, to keep up with the others.
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I think both Ennis & Jack were heavy drinkers and smokers. That's just how they are.
They certainly needed the alchohol to stay warm, and smoking was probably universal in the world they lived in. "Heavy" is perhaps relative. They probably drank and smoked in a manner typical of the rest...
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They certainly needed the alchohol to stay warm, and smoking was probably universal in the world they lived in. "Heavy" is perhaps relative. They probably drank and smoked in a manner typical of the rest...
The myth that alcohol helps keep out cold is untrue. Alcohol in exreem cold is dangerous as it pushes blood form the core to the peripheral circulation, actually lowering body temperature.
The alcohol may have helped with the boredom of the job, or that was the theory anyway. hard workin' hard drinkin' cowboys. (although they sure found a way of keeping themselves amused!). The inhibition - the getting drunk together in the middle of nowhere, that was all part of the fun.
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The myth that alcohol helps keep out cold is untrue. Alcohol in exreem cold is dangerous as it pushes blood form the core to the peripheral circulation, actually lowering body temperature.
How interesting. I have always heard this as a convenient excuse. I must admit that the few times I drank heavily (whiskey, I think) I did feel hot -- but more because I tend to flush and turn very red, I suppose (increased circulation?)? I certainly don't know the exact body chemistry...
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How interesting. I have always heard this as a convenient excuse. I must admit that the few times I drank heavily (whiskey, I think) I did feel hot -- but more because I tend to flush and turn very red, I suppose (increased circulation?)? I certainly don't know the exact body chemistry...
It is interesting. A little off topic, but i went to have a fairly radical piercing a while back, and was refused on the basis of having alcohol beforehand (to pluck up courage), i was told i would bleed more? Hmm, it is a fascinating thread though, i often wondered to myself just how much Jack and Ennis got through - it seemed to be a neverending supply. I guess up there there was nothing to do apart from work and drink - i agree with it being a perk to keep them in line.
Did we ever see Ennis show affection towards Jack without taking a drink beforehand? Did he need the alcohol to spur him on like a kind of crutch, or was he just a habitual drinker? Just thinking out loud...
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Interesting question, bella muerte. I think yes, there were instances where Ennis showed affection without alcohol -- the SNIT comes to mind. Was he drinking then. I assume they drank during the meal, but perhaps not heavily. I would want to think that Ennis entered the tent without the aid of a lot of alcohol -- I think he wanted Jack in a state of full consciousness, and not like in the FNIT...
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Interesting question, bella muerte. I think yes, there were instances where Ennis showed affection without alcohol -- the SNIT comes to mind. Was he drinking then. I assume they drank during the meal, but perhaps not heavily. I would want to think that Ennis entered the tent without the aid of a lot of alcohol -- I think he wanted Jack in a state of full consciousness, and not like in the FNIT...
Yes, i think i agree with that tpe. He certainly wasn't roaring drunk like FNIT. The reunion scene he had consumed quite a bit of beer, but i think he was still in control of himself. And of course, after the reunion scene and the night in the motel, he made the decision to go up the mountain with Jack - and i don't believe he was under the influence by then. It is fascinating though. I think the alcohol became secondary to them both, they could have both blamed their actions on booze after the FNIT, but once the SNIT was done there definitely was no going back.
I really need to watch it again. I'm rambling...
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bella muerte, I do think that alcohol gave Ennis courage to face his desires. Yes. In the Reunion scene, I do think the alcohol must have played a part in making him bold -- bold enough to kiss Jack out in the open (relatively speaking). He had been drinking all day -- out of sheer boredom from waiting, no doubt. Still, one can easily assume that all that alcohol must have indeed emboldened him when he did finally greet Jack.
Jack didn't seem to use alcohol as a means to embolden himself. In the case of Jack, lcohol seemed to have been a vehicle to forget his problems and frustrations -- as well as for leisure, naturally.
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The short story makes it clear that they'd been drinking whiskey before/during the time in the motel room, but I think that might have been Jack using the same technique on Ennis, who seems to have been a beer drinker - he drank bottles of beer up on themountain, according to the ss. That makes sense, too - it's presumably cheaper. Whiskey must get you drunk faster -since I rarely drink at all, this is speculation on my part, but if Jack regularly drank spirits, wouldn't he get habituated to them? So the same amount would have less effect on him than it would on Ennis.
and I know it's true that alcohol ultimately makes you colder, but I doubt those two had any sort of knowledge about its physiological effects - just went by the immediate ones.
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The effect of warming must by psychosomatic, no? Probably finds its origin in the heat generated by alcohol as it courses down the throat and into the insides.
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I thought it was physiological - some sort of effect of the metabolism of alcohol - may even have to go and look it up.
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I thought it was physiological - some sort of effect of the metabolism of alcohol - may even have to go and look it up.
I can believe this. To be sure, metabolism varies enormously from one person to the other...
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I thought it was physiological - some sort of effect of the metabolism of alcohol - may even have to go and look it up.
Yes, it is primarily physiological. You feel warmer because blood is shifted from the internaal criculation (Like the liver, kidneys and lungs) to the peripheral (hands, feet and face). If you have been a bit cold and then enter a warm room you can afford this, physiologically. Sit by the fire, rub your hands, shiver, and have a drink. No problem.
But alcohol kills if taken during a state of hypothermia. Shivering stops. What warmth there is gets redistributed and the core temperature plumets. You start to see long spiral tunnels filled with pink penguins or whatever, then loose conciouness, stop breathing and then your heart stops - basically.
All this is very off topic, but a good chance for some alcohol education!
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I see the alcohol useage of both Ennis and Jack as being fairly normal within the social and cultural context the story is set in. The situations shown in all scenes are realistic - you cannot take the alcohol out of the story any more than the mountains or the sheep!
Jack drank a lot according to Lureen. This is not shown as such. But I feel he did a lot of drinking out of frustration.
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What an informative discussion here. Thanks, friends. :)
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I believe it is true that everyone's metabolism is different. Jack, Prpobably had more tolerance to it than Ennis as said earlier. He had been exposed to alcohol longer an therefore his immune system could tolerate more without appearing or acting drunk. But he gave Ennis a little less than half a bottle of whiskey, prior to FNIT, (during the Water-walkin) scene. Some one who was'nt exposed to alcohol as much, I assume Ennis drank it all cause he was totally trashed crawling around on his hands and knees! And if his drinking made him feel "warm"? it was on the inside because, as Jack warned he would "freeze his ass off" once the fire died out ,and he did.The bottles got bigger too as the movie went on I noticed and by the end of the film Ennis had a much better tolerance with the straight whiskey than in the beginning. The war going on inside and between them is the culprit I beleive. They drank alot.
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Jack was pretty pissed when he was doing rodeo impressions and fell over amount the pots and pans!
The thing I notice is now much more serious everything becomes as the film progresses. Yes, they drink together, but it is more companionship and deeper conversation than foolin'.
The difference between 18 and 40 I suppose, with a dose of disillusionment.
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I believe it is true that everyone's metabolism is different. Jack, Probably had more tolerance to it than Ennis as said earlier. He had been exposed to alcohol longer an therefore his immune system could tolerate more without appearing or acting drunk.
Actually, it is enzymes in the liver that metabolise alcohol out of the system. The immune system has little to do with it. That is more for bacteria, viruses and inflammation in the body.
Yes, there are large genetic differences in the rate at which the metabolism of alcohol occurs. Food can slow absorption. (Particularly elk and beans!)
Tolerance to alcohol tends to increase with time, but this is because of neurological factors - the brain gets accustomed to the presence of alcohol and can even show withdrawal symptoms without it in very heavy drinkers.
I have a degree in this! Does it show? No not in drinking, in the theory!
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I believe they both had alcohol problems ( as had the majority of people living in that time, at that place ), but I personally think that when under the influence, they both were- themselves!
because we all know ( not that I'm too proud to admit it myself ) that alcohol does bring out certain things in people- or should I say OUT of people. when under the influence, all boundaries vanish and one is capable of being oneself- to the fullest ( which is sad, the fact that we are most like ourselves at times when we can't think clearly because of a...toxin! ). because one doesn't think about the consequences, one thinks only of the thing one wants and of the thing one IS at that precise moment. one doesn't give a f*** about society, about rules or boundaries, one just wants to express oneself in his or her most pure way- which is AMAZING of course. but then again, it would be so amazing, if people could 'be able' to do that when not having drunk alcohol. so from that point of view, I believe that alcohol was sort of a....push, for both jack and ennis. because think about it, I kind of doubt that any of them ( especially ennis ) would have even tried making a move that night in the tent if it hadn't been for the fact that they had both been drunk. I'm not saying that what they did was something done strictly because of alcohol, far from it, and on the contrary- they did what they really WANTED to do but probably never would have deared to do, so alcohol was there just to give them a little 'boost' $) aka, it helped them express their mutual attraction for one another that night :cr) at least I see it that way ;)
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The drinking in the film did bother me, simply because I have a family where alcohol is a problem...but putting it in the context of the time helped sort it out. Somehow do not in the early years see any great psychological significance to it - it was like a rite of passage, as you reached a certain age, you started drinking, whether it was legal or not. Can remember in high school going to parties located in areas outside of the city where liquor was available and going into bars as early as age 16... if you could get away with it, you did it... There was not the realization/emphasis on drinking as a societal problem. As the years progressed, then yes can see how either could have been using alcohol as a crutch.
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This is a great discussion. After FNIT when Ennis goes off on his own (to contemplate), i guess he could have said to himsel it happened beacuse of the alcohol, but maybe his doubt came from knowing it wasn't down to the alcohol - yes it was a push, i agree with what you say Koka - but despite the acohol he wanted that level of intimacy with Jack. As that point possibly it was a blow to him to know deep down he couldn't blame it on being p*ssed.
Bless him. It really makes me appreciate the struggle he had within himself.
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The drinking in the film did bother me, simply because I have a family where alcohol is a problem...but putting it in the context of the time helped sort it out. Somehow do not in the early years see any great psychological significance to it - it was like a rite of passage, as you reached a certain age, you started drinking, whether it was legal or not. Can remember in high school going to parties located in areas outside of the city where liquor was available and going into bars as early as age 16... if you could get away with it, you did it... There was not the realization/emphasis on drinking as a societal problem. As the years progressed, then yes can see how either could have been using alcohol as a crutch.
I agree with you here jerasjr - the drinking did seem right in the context of the story. It seemed natural to me that whilst they were up on the mountain they would be drinking whiskey - that could have been something to do with my own preconceptions of country/ranching life. Right or wrong it made it more authentic for me. I have to admit it was only towards the end of the film when Lureen made her 'he drank a lot' comment that i really took note of just how much had been consumed. Up to that point seeing tham both with a bottle in their hand had become natural. Weird.
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It would be interesting to find out the "legal" drinking age in WY at that time - some areas tended to be more relaxed, cannot imagine them being asked for ID's to enter the bar. Do not think that at that time there were penalties for the bars who served underage people. Do not rememeber being asked for ID until I was well past the legal age. That might give a clue as to the context of their culture at the time...
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Evidently Annie Proulx got it right about Wyoming - at least about Wyoming in the late C20th/early C21st. The state apparently has a huge under-age drinking problem, with kids as young as 9 and 10 drinking, and it's at its worst in rural areas. there's also a problem with under-age drink-driving (?DUI? - we don;t call it that but I think Americans do) and apparently parents take the view that drinking is better than using drugs ( as if alcohol weren't one!) The legal age there now is 21, which seems high to me from my UK perspective, but I think it was/is the same in eg Nevada.
Is there some kind of link between the West and excessive drinking? Does it have anything to do with the fact that you can make your own ( illegal) alcohol, specially if you live way the hell out in the middle of nowhere? I'm thinking of moonshine.
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Thanks for setting the record straight JFT. I don't profess to be an expert on the effects of alcohol on the human body, but I'll certainly take your word for it. I appreciate your wealth of information on this thread. Thanks again.
It's also clear that they drank for different reasons. When Jack was worried about Ennis being missing from camp after the bear incident, Jack has a bottle. Obviously he was nervous and very worried with a little anger mixed in.When Ennis gets there , Jack offers him water, but he demands whiskey instead. I guess what bothers me is their seemingly dependence on it. I think it may also have to do with culture, most 19 year olds (that I know) are strictly beer drinkers, then "graduate" to the harder stuff later. Maybe It's different in the midwestern states?( I'm on the East coast,but does'nt matter. Alcohol is abused all over the world.
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After FNIT when Ennis goes off on his own (to contemplate), i guess he could have said to himsel it happened beacuse of the alcohol, but maybe his doubt came from knowing it wasn't down to the alcohol - yes it was a push, i agree with what you say Koka - but despite the acohol he wanted that level of intimacy with Jack.
my point exactly ;) (:) %)
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It would be interesting to find out the "legal" drinking age in WY at that time
Yes, that would be interesting to know. Apparently, as Jack lead Ennis to a bar as soon as they has shaken hands, this was no problem in practice if not legally.
And in one of the several cut scenes, a remnant of which remains in the trailer, is the line from Jack "Well since we goin to be workin together I reckon its time we started drinkin together".
It "clicked" right away between these two men. They started out drinking together from the very outset, with both comparing childhoods, before they went up the mountain.
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Thanks for setting the record straight JFT.
You are welcome. This is a particularly interesting thread.
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It's also made me aware of hopw often we see them drinking when they're not on BBM - Jack after the rodeos, particularly the time when Lureen approaches him, at which point he appears to be drinking whiskey again, Ennis waiting for Jack to arrive in Riverton, the two of them when they go off "fishing" together, Ennis in the trailer with Alma Jr - alcohol seems to be a regular part of their lives.
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It's also made me aware of hopw often we see them drinking when they're not on BBM - Jack after the rodeos, particularly the time when Lureen approaches him, at which point he appears to be drinking whiskey again, Ennis waiting for Jack to arrive in Riverton, the two of them when they go off "fishing" together, Ennis in the trailer with Alma Jr - alcohol seems to be a regular part of their lives.
Yes. And the thanksgiving meal with the fight afterwards, the drunken types at new year with the firework fight, the evening Alma wants to go to the church social while Ennis is surrounded by beer cans, the scenes with Randal. The scenes with Cassey too. In fact there seem to be as many scenes with alcohol as without if you go through them in your head.
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Jack was pretty pissed when he was doing rodeo impressions and fell over amount the pots and pans!
The thing I notice is now much more serious everything becomes as the film progresses. Yes, they drink together, but it is more companionship and deeper conversation than foolin'.
The difference between 18 and 40 I suppose, with a dose of disillusionment.
So true.
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I believe they both had alcohol problems ( as had the majority of people living in that time, at that place ), but I personally think that when under the influence, they both were- themselves!
because we all know ( not that I'm too proud to admit it myself ) that alcohol does bring out certain things in people- or should I say OUT of people. when under the influence, all boundaries vanish and one is capable of being oneself- to the fullest ( which is sad, the fact that we are most like ourselves at times when we can't think clearly because of a...toxin! ). because one doesn't think about the consequences, one thinks only of the thing one wants and of the thing one IS at that precise moment. one doesn't give a f*** about society, about rules or boundaries, one just wants to express oneself in his or her most pure way- which is AMAZING of course. but then again, it would be so amazing, if people could 'be able' to do that when not having drunk alcohol. so from that point of view, I believe that alcohol was sort of a....push, for both jack and ennis. because think about it, I kind of doubt that any of them ( especially ennis ) would have even tried making a move that night in the tent if it hadn't been for the fact that they had both been drunk. I'm not saying that what they did was something done strictly because of alcohol, far from it, and on the contrary- they did what they really WANTED to do but probably never would have deared to do, so alcohol was there just to give them a little 'boost' $) aka, it helped them express their mutual attraction for one another that night :cr) at least I see it that way ;)
So you believe as the ancient Greeks did: that it is through alcohol that th gods speak to/through Mortals and that the hidden self is finally revealed...
There is certainly much truth to this, also.
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The drinking in the film did bother me, simply because I have a family where alcohol is a problem...but putting it in the context of the time helped sort it out. Somehow do not in the early years see any great psychological significance to it - it was like a rite of passage, as you reached a certain age, you started drinking, whether it was legal or not. Can remember in high school going to parties located in areas outside of the city where liquor was available and going into bars as early as age 16... if you could get away with it, you did it... There was not the realization/emphasis on drinking as a societal problem. As the years progressed, then yes can see how either could have been using alcohol as a crutch.
And alcohol is still used as a crutch, no? For juveniles, this is underastandable (though not excusable). For more mature ones, it is sad.
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This is a great discussion. After FNIT when Ennis goes off on his own (to contemplate), i guess he could have said to himsel it happened beacuse of the alcohol, but maybe his doubt came from knowing it wasn't down to the alcohol - yes it was a push, i agree with what you say Koka - but despite the acohol he wanted that level of intimacy with Jack. As that point possibly it was a blow to him to know deep down he couldn't blame it on being p*ssed.
Bless him. It really makes me appreciate the struggle he had within himself.
As much as its use is abused, alcohol does sometimes makes one brave enough to face one's true self.
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Thanks for setting the record straight JFT. I don't profess to be an expert on the effects of alcohol on the human body, but I'll certainly take your word for it. I appreciate your wealth of information on this thread. Thanks again.
It's also clear that they drank for different reasons. When Jack was worried about Ennis being missing from camp after the bear incident, Jack has a bottle. Obviously he was nervous and very worried with a little anger mixed in.When Ennis gets there , Jack offers him water, but he demands whiskey instead. I guess what bothers me is their seemingly dependence on it. I think it may also have to do with culture, most 19 year olds (that I know) are strictly beer drinkers, then "graduate" to the harder stuff later. Maybe It's different in the midwestern states?( I'm on the East coast,but does'nt matter. Alcohol is abused all over the world.
Interestinmg that you mention the bear episode. Alcohol was also used here as a palliative, no? To dull pain -- both physical and spiritual, I would expect...
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Yes. And the thanksgiving meal with the fight afterwards, the drunken types at new year with the firework fight, the evening Alma wants to go to the church social while Ennis is surrounded by beer cans, the scenes with Randal. The scenes with Cassey too. In fact there seem to be as many scenes with alcohol as without if you go through them in your head.
We should note that wine features in the end, when Ennis toasts Alma Jr. with cheap white wine left over from the Cassie days.
Why do I bring this up? It was probably 2 years since Ennis broke up with Cassie, according to the screenplay. Verily, the wine had turned to vinegar. Christ drinking wine-vinegar on a sponge and crying out: "it is finished".
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In fact there seem to be as many scenes with alcohol as without if you go through them in your head.
Correction - with the bear scene and Alma Jr. thak makes more scenes with alcohol than without!
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Hi,
This is my 2 cent worth, Ennis and Jack on the surface was a ranch hand and a cowboy, outdoors men. drinking was part of the life. I don't know if they were functioning alcoholics, but it was part of them. When Ennis was thrown from the horse, and came back to camp he was mad. Jack was drinking because he was upset there was no dinner, only those darn beans. Ennis said " Isn't there whiskey or somethin", He didn't want any sissy drink like water, heck he wasn't fainting.
On the night of their first encounter they finally opened up, like maybe two good friends in a bar, and talking about what they believed, feeling each other out on some things. When you go out with a friend, a lover your guard is down you're relaxed, comfortable so you open up, act silly even.
Alcohol was just a part of their lives.
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Hi,
This is my 2 cent worth, Ennis and Jack on the surface was a ranch hand and a cowboy, outdoors men. drinking was part of the life. I don't know if they were functioning alcoholics, but it was part of them. When Ennis was thrown from the horse, and came back to camp he was mad. Jack was drinking because he was upset there was no dinner, only those darn beans. Ennis said " Isn't there whiskey or somethin", He didn't want any sissy drink like water, heck he wasn't fainting.
On the night of their first encounter they finally opened up, like maybe two good friends in a bar, and talking about what they believed, feeling each other out on some things. When you go out with a friend, a lover your guard is down you're relaxed, comfortable so you open up, act silly even.
Alcohol was just a part of their lives.
As with many people wit similar backgrounds, I would say. It was a simple pleasure.
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Hi,
Alcohol was just a part of their lives.
Yes it was. It would have been considerd odd not to drink in their social culture.
The "alcoholic" aspect (excessive drinking where it is seen as being a problem by the individual concerner and/or the people around them) is only implied in that Lureen said that Jack drank a lot and made jokes about whiskey springs.
Between the lines I feel Jack was a heavy drinker. Frustrated, stuck in an unhappy marriage yet with the money for drink.
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And both on the rodeo circuit and among other salesmen and buyers, I bet drink was the norm, part of the social background. Besides which, I'd have drunk to put some distance between myself and Lureen, specially after she grew yellow plastic hair.
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And both on the rodeo circuit and among other salesmen and buyers, I bet drink was the norm, part of the social background. Besides which, I'd have drunk to put some distance between myself and Lureen, specially after she grew yellow plastic hair.
The less sex she got - the more blonde her hair became!
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Yes it was. It would have been considerd odd not to drink in their social culture.
The "alcoholic" aspect (excessive drinking where it is seen as being a problem by the individual concerner and/or the people around them) is only implied in that Lureen said that Jack drank a lot and made jokes about whiskey springs.
Between the lines I feel Jack was a heavy drinker. Frustrated, stuck in an unhappy marriage yet with the money for drink.
There is indeed a difference between when one drinks for pleasure and when one drinks to forget.
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I'm thinking of the scene where Cassie and Ennis come to pick up Alma Jr. Well..I guess Ennis' likes to drink because they ended up where? IN THE BAR. I've been in bars and seen young kids , not drinking but watching and listening to adult activities there with the parent. I just get this weird uncomfortable feeling. We are all products of our enviroment, and so was Ennis and Jack. I think they both drank to forget there lack of sucess on many levels. Their fathers probably drank heavily too. And how many beers did Ennis have while waiting for Jack in the reunion scene? Jeez, I saw at least 8. :cr) :c)
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I'm thinking of the scene where Cassie and Ennis come to pick up Alma Jr. Well..I guess Ennis' likes to drink because they ended up where? IN THE BAR. I've been in bars and seen young kids , not drinking but watching and listening to adult activities there with the parent. I just get this weird uncomfortable feeling. We are all products of our enviroment, and so was Ennis and Jack. I think they both drank to forget there lack of sucess on many levels. Their fathers probably drank heavily too. And how many beers did Ennis have while waiting for Jack in the reunion scene? Jeez, I saw at least 8. :cr) :c)
It is most probable that the great majority of people like Ennis and Jack would drink in part for leisure/recreation an in part to forget their everyday woes. In fact, these two probably go hand in hand. And let's not forget the social aspect of drinking...
In the scene where Ennis dances with Cassie for the first time, Cassie comments about "drunks like you, demanding beer after beer, smokin..." Clearly, Ennis had time on his hands that afternoon and wiled away the time drinking and smoking -- apparently for the pleasure of it. But I don't doubt that he preferred this type of liesure activity because it gave him the chance to forget his problems, rather than mope about them when he had time on his hands.
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Wait, Wait.
Don't over analyze this. Remember this was 60's drinking and smoking was OK, There were commercials on TV for beer and cigarettes. "It was OK to drink a six pack in one sitting, I worked all day, and hard too I deserve this, buzz off. " Who in the heck was the Surgeon General, and who cared back then. That was the way it was. Now, today, in the times we live, it is socially unacceptable to do this. But this was life for them.
There one thing I could believe, I could believe that Jack could have been drinking more, because of Ennis. It has to get to you after a while to want something so much, to be so close, and still can't have it. Ennis, was surely Jack's one and only true love, how maddening it was for him not to have him totally.
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Wait, Wait.
Don't over analyze this. Remember this was 60's drinking and smoking was OK, There were commercials on TV for beer and cigarettes. "It was OK to drink a six pack in one sitting, I worked all day, and hard too I deserve this, buzz off. " Who in the heck was the Surgeon General, and who cared back then. That was the way it was. Now, today, in the times we live, it is socially unacceptable to do this. But this was life for them.
There one thing I could believe, I could believe that Jack could have been drinking more, because of Ennis. It has to get to you after a while to want something so much, to be so close, and still can't have it. Ennis, was surely Jack's one and only true love, how maddening it was for him not to have him totally.
I don't think it was just ok. I would say that smoking and drinking as expected of men.
I do think drinking is still widely acceptable today, although heavy drinking is not particularly acceptable. One just goes to college town bars to see how peer pressure drives drinking among the young -- it would not be seasible to have a social life there without recourse to alcohol. And in spite of growing disapproval, I do think smoking is still fairly widespread: again, most especially among the young.
Later in life, I would think that Jack's frustrations with Ennis increased his drinking. But even without this, I am sure he and Ennis were reasonably heavy drinkers -- and smokers. Again, it was an acceptable leisure activity that helped them wile away the time...
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I really think Jack and Ennis drink beyond what was considered normal, especially Jack. To have Laureen said "He drank a lot" meant that Jack was not just a social drinker but becoming an alcoholic. Perhaps in one of his drunk moments that he told Laureen about Brokeback Mountain. These two are not drinking for pleasure but to drown the pain with in.
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The less sex she got - the more blonde her hair became!
That's true, isn't it? LOL ;D
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That's true, isn't it? LOL ;D
Not really. At some point she gave up on hair and went over onto yellow nylon wigs. ;D
This is getting *o)!
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I really think Jack and Ennis drink beyond what was considered normal, especially Jack. To have Laureen said "He drank a lot" meant that Jack was not just a social drinker but becoming an alcoholic. Perhaps in one of his drunk moments that he told Laureen about Brokeback Mountain. These two are not drinking for pleasure but to drown the pain with in.
Towards the end I also believe Jack was drinking more, after twenty years of dealing with Ennis, his need for him, and Ennis unwillingness to consider a life with him took a toll on him. Lureen, knew Brokeback was important to Jack, I don't if she knew in what context or extent its importance. But, she knew something, I think that why the coldness on the phone with Ennis.
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Towards the end I also believe Jack was drinking more, after twenty years of dealing with Ennis, his need for him, and Ennis unwillingness to consider a life with him took a toll on him. Lureen, knew Brokeback was important to Jack, I don't if she knew in what context or extent its importance. But, she knew something, I think that why the coldness on the phone with Ennis.
20 years of pleasure but also 20 years of unspeakable pain. The sad thing was that he had no one to turn to for comfort but perhaps alcohol. I think Laureen knew Brokeback was important to Jack but don't understand the true reason of that importance until she spoke to Ennis.
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omg i just fgound this thread!!!!
jeesus so far as i'm concerned both both those boys needed an alcoholics anonymous meeting!!!~
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omg i just fgound this thread!!!!
jeesus so far as i'm concerned both both those boys needed an alcoholics anonymous meeting!!!~
Its not quite that bad!
Your text "I couldn't stand it no more. So i fixed it." is very nice by the way.
JFT
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Thank you Jack.
I put that text there because it's true, I couldn't stand it no more so I DID fix it, or rather got out of my own way and allowed change to happen after taking action. That consisted of very small steps, and those steps built and built...... One year ago I was lonely and miserable. I saw Brokeback Mountain on February 7, 2006 at 4:15 PM, was hit over the head with a bat....and started to aloow change. Today I live in a different state, look at the Rocky mountains from my window, have a brand new [first] wife, love her to pieces and am so happy i'm afraid to say it because it might jinx it roflmao.
I really do think they needed AA meetings, Jack in particular. that boy drank like i used to drink. And remember how Lureen said 'he drank a lot'?? For a texan wife to say that, Jack had to drink like a fish. And it's logical, because he was miserable.
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Jack must have indeed drank a lot in the end, but my impression is that he was still far off from being a dypsomaniac -- well, at least as far as the movie shows us; he was not perpetually drunk, it seems. If he were able to drive so many miles to meet Ennis and help out at his parents' ranch after that, then I would expect that he was sober enough many a time and had not lost full control over himself, like so many dypsomaniacs.
Still, if he were to attend an AA meeting, it would only reveal to us what we probably already know can't be solved just by Jack: he drank because of his frustration of not being able to get Ennis to commit to a life together.
Drink is the symptom of a greater core problem for Jack. Even if Jack drank less, I am sure it would not have mattered as far as his happiness was concerned. Trying to move on with Randall tells us that Jack was far from complacent, and that his drinking did not get in the way of his search for happiness.
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Actually tpe, I have some very good points to talk about with this, in depth. the problem is that I MUST get some sleep roflmaoooo, so please let me answer tomorrow. Jack Twist as a young person was just a heavy drinker, but as a mature adult he seems to have 'crossed the line'; in the short story AP gives some very interesting clues, and in the film AL subtley used those clues. It's quite interesting.
By the way, I haven't heard anyone say dypsomaniac in a very long time, what made you remember that term lolol???
There are many many people who can be drunks and still be functional--hold jobs, do well, function in life..... hell, i used to be one of those myself. You might find my perspective interesting!
Until tomorrow Tom!
Jack
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Thanks Jack, for your contributions to the discussion! No rush. Whenever you are ready to share your thoughts, we will be here. :)
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There are those who are unhappy and drink to forget it but never appear drunk - they keep an almost steady level of alcohol in their system and are never comletely sober. They also build up a tolerance and so can drink quite a lot without showing many outward effects. This is what I think Jack was most like by the end of his life.
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Sorry it took so long for me to post here, many apologies!
Both of those boys drank too much. Sure, that's what boys did/do, yet they still drank too much. In the short story Jack at 19 tells Ennis they needed plenty of whiskey up there...and that speaks volumes. When Jack was bored, he drank. When Jack wasn't bored, he still drank. Jack from the beginning of the movie was a guy who just DRANK. They opened that bar at what, 7am? They were drinking as the waitress cleaned up for breakfast. The only time I ever did that i was still on a bender from the night before and I ended up in a 12 step program for alcohol and knew I needed one when i was THEIR age when they met. About 10% of the population becomes addicted to alcohol with their first drinks, and I think Jack Twist fell into that 10%. Conversely, Ennis--who in many fanfics is one hell of a drunk!--just falls into the category of a heavy hitter or a binge drinker. he could tie one on and not have it mean much. It seems as if he drank LESS as he grew older, while Jack drank more. Jack NEEDED the booze. When a Texas wife says 'he drank a LOT', you can take it as gospel:her husband drinks like a fish. Jack's general misery made him drink more....but I have a sneakin feeling that if he wasn't miserable he would have drank just as much, it was his excuse.
Being an abuser of alcohol does not mean a skid row drunk. Most --but not all--of the men I know in meetings managed to keep up the facade of normal living. Their families knew, their friends knew, 'but he could handle it' was the general comment. Except he couldn't handle it, Jack's and THEIR wives knew that it WAS a facade.
Jack couldn't handle his life, he hated every minute of it. His entire existence was a lie, and by the end he simply could not stand it, or himself. He drowned himself in a bottle before he drowned in his blood. You do not have to be perpetually drunk to BE a drunk; Jack was most certainly NOT a perpetual drunk---but a drunk he was, all the same.
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Sorry it took so long for me to post here, many apologies!
Both of those boys drank too much. Sure, that's what boys did/do, yet they still drank too much. In the short story Jack at 19 tells Ennis they needed plenty of whiskey up there...and that speaks volumes. When Jack was bored, he drank. When Jack wasn't bored, he still drank. Jack from the beginning of the movie was a guy who just DRANK. They opened that bar at what, 7am? They were drinking as the waitress cleaned up for breakfast. The only time I ever did that i was still on a bender from the night before and I ended up in a 12 step program for alcohol and knew I needed one when i was THEIR age when they met. About 10% of the population becomes addicted to alcohol with their first drinks, and I think Jack Twist fell into that 10%. Conversely, Ennis--who in many fanfics is one hell of a drunk!--just falls into the category of a heavy hitter or a binge drinker. he could tie one on and not have it mean much. It seems as if he drank LESS as he grew older, while Jack drank more. Jack NEEDED the booze. When a Texas wife says 'he drank a LOT', you can take it as gospel:her husband drinks like a fish. Jack's general misery made him drink more....but I have a sneakin feeling that if he wasn't miserable he would have drank just as much, it was his excuse.
Being an abuser of alcohol does not mean a skid row drunk. Most --but not all--of the men I know in meetings managed to keep up the facade of normal living. Their families knew, their friends knew, 'but he could handle it' was the general comment. Except he couldn't handle it, Jack's and THEIR wives knew that it WAS a facade.
Jack couldn't handle his life, he hated every minute of it. His entire existence was a lie, and by the end he simply could not stand it, or himself. He drowned himself in a bottle before he drowned in his blood. You do not have to be perpetually drunk to BE a drunk; Jack was most certainly NOT a perpetual drunk---but a drunk he was, all the same.
No need for apologies, Brokeback_1. A discussion is always welcome, but not insisted upon immediately. ;)
I would agree that Ennis and Jack were heavy drinkers, relatively speaking. But I would think that they did not drink more than the average ranch hand or sheep herder up in the cold mountains.
They needed a lot of whiskey up in the mountains primarily to feel warm (again, I do realize that this is just a physiological effect and has no true bearing on the body's temperature), as the common wisdom dictated. When Proulx listed the supplies they brough out with them, one has the distinct impression that there was nothing special about it -- it was probably standard for all herders going up the mountains.
Drink was a social activity for them. This would be in keeping with their drinking at the bar after meeting Aguirre. It was also a source of recreation -- a way of forgetting one's problems. It is no mystery that the very poor throughout history have always relied on cheap alcohol for pleasure -- and the powers that be made sure that they got it, in order to keep the masses happy. Beer was certainly what kept the builders of the Pyramids going. "Bread and Circuses" also meant beer and cheap alcoholic beverages to the Romans. And gin was the drink that kept the 18th century London masses at bay: "No gin, no king". Absinthe was beloved of the Parisian poor (notably struggling artists and writers) in fin de siecle Paris.
I do think Ennis and Jack were no different from the other people who made up their milieu. I am not saying that they didn't drink too much. I am simply saying that they were no different from the rest in their world.
To make my point, I note that the average college student in the US consumes enormous quantities of cheap alcoholic beverages. We may consider each one of them as heavy drinkers, but I doubt that they were different from the rest of their peers. And I doubt that most students after graduating ended up as dypsomaniacs, even if the thirst for beer and alcohol would prove to be life-long.
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Well yes that's all true...but i was concentrating on one individual--although still mentioining that 'thats what boys did/do' That individual was jack. Ennis grew out of it by and large. Jack became a functional alcoholic, every sign was there.
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I do think that Ennis drank as much as Jack. Cassie's comment: "Drunks like you, demanding beer after beer..."
Cassie's comment in fact illustrates my point: that Ennis and Jack were not alone in their pursuit of drink. She would have said it was a "necessity" for them.
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I make no bones about agreeing with you Thomas: they drank the way 'everybody' did, in that world and time. Yet this doesnt detract from the feeling that Jack was alcoholic. I asked some alcoholism counselors I know to watch Brokeback because I was curious about their professional opinion...plus, being in recovery so long, lol, I had a keen interest in the question.... To my surprise every one had already seen it. They were unanimous in that Jack showed all the symptoms of the alcoholic personality, while Ennis---and I own this surprised me--was called a 'binge drinker'. BVut all 3 professionals considered jack an alcoholic.
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I make no bones about agreeing with you Thomas: they drank the way 'everybody' did, in that world and time. Yet this doesnt detract from the feeling that Jack was alcoholic. I asked some alcoholism counselors I know to watch Brokeback because I was curious about their professional opinion...plus, being in recovery so long, lol, I had a keen interest in the question.... To my surprise every one had already seen it. They were unanimous in that Jack showed all the symptoms of the alcoholic personality, while Ennis---and I own this surprised me--was called a 'binge drinker'. BVut all 3 professionals considered jack an alcoholic.
That's interesting they put Ennis in a separate catagory. Why was that?
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They said he drank in a different way from Jack Twist.
One said something quite interesting to me, namely Ennis was obviously a heavy hitter but more or less the sort of male who ended up drinking on weekends--witness the scene where Alma wants to go to the Church Social on a Saturday night. Ennis is drinking at home and he obviously has a buzz on. This is why it surprised me: for all intents and purposes Ennis was drinking alone. It's quite common, something millions of men do and it more or less obscured the notion that he wasn't getting very drunk, to me at least. When I drank alone I got so wasted I ended up in a 12 step program roflmao. Ennis just relaxed with some beers. All 3 said he seemed to drink to a certain point as an adult w/o loosing his faculties. MOST OF THE TIME.
The 2nd of the 3 pointed out that JT just drank. Time of day, location, etc didn't matter. All 3 brought up the morning drinking as evidenced in the scene immediately following the interview with Aguirre. Jack was starting his day off with some beers. This is always a clear sign of alcoholism or at the very least the path to it. Ennis would not have been drinking that early if it wasn't for Jack, and even his lack of funds didn't seem to change that. Jack drank faster then Ennis in that morning scene and that too is a clue.
All 3 said jack had all the makings of an alcoholic personality from the beginning and 2 of the 3 also said he prob had not 'crossed the line' up on Brokeback. He paced himself while allowing Ennis to get drunker the night of FNIT....which brings me OT to my pet theory of Jack staying sober because he wanted Ennis that night and Ennis getting completely hammered because he wanted Jack that night, wimping out at the final moment and staying by the fire......
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How interesting! It fits with my theory that Jack has an addictive personality; had he been born in another place and time I think he'd have taken drugs and probably become addicted to some. He's evidently the one who produces the spliff up on Brokeback - I can't see Ennis even knowing where to go to buy the stuff.
But in a place like childress and married to Lureen alcohol was more socially acceptable and easily obtainable, so he drank.
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quote from tpe >>>....So you believe as the ancient Greeks did: that it is through alcohol that the gods speak to/through Mortals and that the hidden self is finally revealed...There is certainly much truth to this, also....<<<
HiYa all !!!
In regards to alcohol being so prominent throughout the film,I have a sense there's a bigger picture here then I have been able to come to grips with and I don't feel it is being over anaylized in the least.
One reason I suspect this, is the fact that Ennis and Alma's apartment isn't just above a laundromat, which has its own symbolisms and metaphors.It's connected to a "Liquor" store.You can see a huge Liquor sign displayed prominently when Ennis truck comes rushing haphazrdly into the parking space below his apartment,narriowly missing a cowboy hatted pedestrian.
Oddly, this scene reminds me of the time at the beginning when Aquires vehicle came rushing into the parking lot and narrowly missed Ennis.
That is an interesting detail. I had not noticed that. I did notice the Elk's Lodge, but not the liquor store...
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I make no bones about agreeing with you Thomas: they drank the way 'everybody' did, in that world and time. Yet this doesnt detract from the feeling that Jack was alcoholic. I asked some alcoholism counselors I know to watch Brokeback because I was curious about their professional opinion...plus, being in recovery so long, lol, I had a keen interest in the question.... To my surprise every one had already seen it. They were unanimous in that Jack showed all the symptoms of the alcoholic personality, while Ennis---and I own this surprised me--was called a 'binge drinker'. BVut all 3 professionals considered jack an alcoholic.
Hello Brokeback_1! By a certain standard, I would say that yes, perhaps people like them can be considered alcoholic. But I would disagree that Ennis was any less into drink than Jack.
For example: in the entire movie, we don't see Jack drunk at all! And the only person we see totally drunk was Ennis -- at the start of the FNIT. Upon further observation, I would claim the authorities to be in error, because the only comment that suggests that Jack drank a lot came from Lureen, and we have no way to check the veracity of her claim from any scene in the movie. If they would also count the scenes carefully, they will see that Ennis had more scenes where he was shown drinking. Hence, I see no particular reason from the evidence of the movie that they would claim that Jack drank more than Ennis.
To summarize, I should note that the only testimonial that Jack drank more than the ordinary was from Lureen. By simply counting the number of scenes showing them drinking alcohol in the movie, it would appear that Ennis was the more frequent drinker, and that anything outside what we see would be speculation.
Again, this is my view of things and I understand that other people will see things differently. That is in the nature of a discussion. Thanks for elucidating your own point of view.
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Great discussion and posts! Well Jack was was'nt desperate like Jack Lemmon's character in that movie Days of Wine and Roses, but he did drink to releive his suffering over his screwed up situation. Living with the Newsome family was no picnic in the park for him and Ennis did'nt help by refusing to commit to the sweet life he wanted. His drinking went to the heart of his unsuccesful attempts to permanently snag Ennis but I don't picture Jack as some desperate alcoholic thogh. He was able to drive the long distances several times to see Ennis without accident or falling off horses etc as if he could'nt handle the alcohol. Plus he was able to maintain a great sex life too according to the SS, even over time. He was'nt stealing ,or robbing banks or hurting anyone to get it either as true "addicts" do. No. I think he drank when things got a little much for him to deal with.Lurren? I'm very suspicious of her motives in her converstion with Ennis. She was so damn calculating and cold who the hell knows what she was up to. I beleive Jack probably did drink more at home with her , but he had a good reason. Jack was stuck btween a rock and a hard place so who could blame the guy really. This is the way I see it.
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OT--I used to think she was a cold woman. Don't any longer.
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OT--I used to think she was a cold woman. Don't any longer.
I dont think Lureen was cold to start with, life made her like that. When young she was quite vivatious - a barrel racing, mating call come-on, high speed bra removal artist! It may have been a shotgun wedding.
I think she cooled as she grew dissilusioned with life. 20 years traped in a lie with a man whos heart was on BBM and body was often in Mexico, rose stemming with Ennis or cabin building with Randall made sure of that.
The cooler she got, the blonder she got.
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It was all a facade. When Jack died she fell apart. there are clueds like the fingernail polish, etc, the catch in her voice when she realised just who and what ennis WAS. She was about as charitable to ennis as any wife might be to 'the other <wo>man". Cause that's what ennis was.
But i am way OT
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I had wondered if even Lureen drank a lot. Not as much as Jack, perhaps... But she certainly smoked a lot. If Jack became increasingly alcoholic, one would think that there would have been no dearth of alcoholic beverages in the house...
Jack never seemed to have become violent or abusive to Lureen. This is quite telling. Of course, one does not have to be violently drunk to be an alcoholic, and yet it would seem that the most we can accuse him (and her!) is to develop an indifference as far as the marriage waqs concerned.
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I wondered that myself thomas, but it looks as if she retreated into ever-blonder varieties of Miss Clairol instead....although at Thanksgiving that glass of white wine WAS prominently displayed inf ront of her! Even her wine was blonde lolol. And that BLOUSE. Even as a guy, what the hell was that woman thinking?????
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The blonde/blonder/blondest hair and Jack's drinking seem to me to be aspects of the same thing - escape from aging, loneliness, emotional emptiness. Ennis also escapes via alcohol, whereas Alma escapes into a different life. Alcohol has always been a more acceptable escape mechanism for men than for women, I think.
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I wondered that myself thomas, but it looks as if she retreated into ever-blonder varieties of Miss Clairol instead....although at Thanksgiving that glass of white wine WAS prominently displayed inf ront of her! Even her wine was blonde lolol. And that BLOUSE. Even as a guy, what the hell was that woman thinking?????
The blonde/blonder/blondest hair and Jack's drinking seem to me to be aspects of the same thing - escape from aging, loneliness, emotional emptiness. Ennis also escapes via alcohol, whereas Alma escapes into a different life. Alcohol has always been a more acceptable escape mechanism for men than for women, I think.
This is my idea. Could it be Lureen was trying to reassure herself of her womanhood. Though it was never really touch upon, Lureen was trying prove that she was still an attractive, desired woman. As time when on, and Jack's deepening relationship with Ennis, had to an effect on the marriage, most importantly the most intimate part of the marriage. Her ever changing hair color, is the a sign of the ever widening gap between her and Jack. and Jack's drinking stems out wanting the one he loved, and couldn't have, and watching Ennis waging a war against himself.
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I had a mental picture of the touch-me-not hair-do carefully arranged on a pillow, and Jack, probably smelling of whiskey, being discouraged from approaching. I wonder if Lureen wondered what caused Jack to drink so much, or perhaps she didn;t worry as long as it kept him out of her hair - literally! :)
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I had a mental picture of the touch-me-not hair-do carefully arranged on a pillow, and Jack, probably smelling of whiskey, being discouraged from approaching. I wonder if Lureen wondered what caused Jack to drink so much, or perhaps she didn;t worry as long as it kept him out of her hair - literally! :)
Now THAT is a mental picture which will haunt me from now on. <shudders>
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I wondered that myself thomas, but it looks as if she retreated into ever-blonder varieties of Miss Clairol instead....although at Thanksgiving that glass of white wine WAS prominently displayed inf ront of her! Even her wine was blonde lolol. And that BLOUSE. Even as a guy, what the hell was that woman thinking?????
:)
OT: Yes, she did seem to have her own insecurities and addictions! She and Jack were well-matched...
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The early examples of drinking - in the bar the first day they met, up on the mouintain, may also have been a macho thing, each wanting to impress the other with how much he could drink?
Drinking is also a way of constructing a barrier from someone you're with and don't specially want to be - drinking as a wayof turning your back on someone (metaphorically). Ennis does this with Alma and maybe Jack does with Lureen.
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The early examples of drinking - in the bar the first day they met, up on the mouintain, may also have been a macho thing, each wanting to impress the other with how much he could drink?
Drinking is also a way of constructing a barrier from someone you're with and don't specially want to be - drinking as a wayof turning your back on someone (metaphorically). Ennis does this with Alma and maybe Jack does with Lureen.
It is related to the desire to forget, I suppose. Alcohol provides the ability to forget and not be bothered by oneself or others...
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I think it's a bit more hostile than that - drinking in front of someone, specially when they aren't, is a way of saying you're not even interested enough in them to stay sober. It also implies that you have something you want to escape from, and that could include them.
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I think it's a bit more hostile than that - drinking in front of someone, specially when they aren't, is a way of saying you're not even interested enough in them to stay sober. It also implies that you have something you want to escape from, and that could include them.
I see what you mean. It is a mode of attack. The weakness becomes a weapon in and of itself...
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^^WHAT THEY SAID!!!
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^^WHAT THEY SAID!!!
Sorry, Brokeback_1, if that was a bit cryptic.
I guess what I was trying to say is that people use their being drunk also as a weapon. IN a sense, it can be a form of agression, especially to those who would have to deal with the consequences.
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no, I was agreeing with the 2 of you!
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Good I like people who agree with me! I know, *o)
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no, I was agreeing with the 2 of you!
OT: Thanks, Brokeback_1. Sorry, I am sometimes not very sure if my posts become a bit opaque sometimes. :)