Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: tpe on Dec 15, 2006, 09:39 AM
-
No, I didn't count the number of kisses to be 101! What I want to suggest by the title is that kisses and kissing feature so prominently in many of the scenes: from the cold distant kiss exchanged between Jack and Lureen to the dizzying hights of the Reunion Kiss.
And I should also include in this thread a discusssion of the most prominent scenes where kissing did NOT actually occur: as in the near-kiss of the FNIT and the Dozy Embrace, whose power matches any kiss.
I got this idea from greenfrog's post about kisses being one of the symbols we shall forever associate with BBM. Let us open this thread to a discussion of kisses in BBM, as well as of their absence in many of the important scenes.
-
To start, I find it rather odd that in all the scenes between Ennis and Cassie (at least all those retained in the final version of the movie), we never see them kiss, am I right? If I am correct in this observation, then I would say that such an omission is very telling. What does it tell us of the relationship between the two of them? I would assume that as (reluctant?) lovers, they must have exchanged kisses at one time or another. And yet, no such kiss was shown in the movie...
-
There must be a reason - for me it's that there is no real depth of affection or commitment to Cassie on Ennis's side. If you look at the various kisses he gives Alma, right from the reluctant, prompted one at the wedding through the honeymoon and their life together, they vary but never appear to convey overwhelming passion. There's only one person he kisses that way.....
-
I would assume it is a mark of alienation between the sexes. I was re-reading Yasunari Kawabata's "The Old Capital" on my way back from London, and it also dwells heavily on the same sense of alienation (none of the lovers kiss, of course; the only kiss was the one exchanged between the elder father and the young geisha.)
Yes, it may very well mean that both were simply in love with the idea of being in love -- and not with one another. And yet the tears shed by Cassie in the end seem real enough. Perhaps the illusion is too great. But the absence of true intimacy is underlined by the absence of any kiss shared between the two of them...
-
When Ennis refers to his affair with Cassie he calls it "putting the blocks to" -- not loving, or even f---ing. He shows no feeling towards her and what they are doing together. Cassie, on the other hand, says she loved Ennis. Again, another woman loving Ennis and getting nowhere because Ennis' head just isn't with them. He's fixated on Jack and that's all she wrote.
I think the kiss while sledding shows Ennis is fond of Alma -- probably loves her as much as a lot of men love their wives. There's just no passion there as there is with Jack -- thus the hot kisses with Jack. Those kisses aren't for show. They are necessary and wonderful -- life-giving to the love between the two men.
-
This is an interesting thread. I couldn't help but be reminded of the old myth/legend/idea that prostitutes/escorts will do everything except kiss, it's like kissing reaches a level of intimacy that plain sex can't. that reminds me very much of the relationship between Ennis/Alma/Cassie, Jack/Lureen. I know some kisses are shown but there is a passion lacking that i only see between Jack and Ennis. Any other relationship seems to be just a means to an end. Jack/Ennis kisses are pure, animal, open mouthed, saliva exchanging, soul kisses - the others seem to pale in comparison.
-
Your so right about this. The kisses between Jack and Ennis are very passionate and so powerfuuly urgent that you almost taste them yourself. Especially the reunion kisses! But my fav kiss remains in SNIT. It was their first kiss. You can just tell that Jack has been wanting and waiting to do this for a long long time. That "I just want to taste this right now, this moment" kiss was so soft , so tender as if something majical was drawing him to it. And Ennis, he wanted Jack to lead him , telling Jack shyly with his eyes that he was ready to "go there". Bashfully inviting him. Trying to say what he could not speak out loud with his eyes. Wanting what he had denied Jack the FNIT. Jack wanted to kiss him then I beleive too , but that was too much ,too soon then. But in SNIT he was ready, after coming to an understanding with himself concerning his feelings enough to allow Jack to lead him right where he wanted to go, beginning with that sweet hot, wet, kiss. Yum.
I love all of this movie but this scene and this kiss made a beleiver out of me. Thanks
-
That's my favorite kiss in the movie, also. I think it's because it is so tentative. Jack wasn't sure how Ennis would react. Would he kiss him back? Would he rebuff him? Would he just kiss him perfunctorily? When Ennis first allowed the kiss, the viewer wonders, too. It is clear that Jack is the aggressor, but how will Ennis respond. When he finally kisses Jack back, we all breathe a sigh of relief because now we know where this is heading. There's something here a lot deeper than just sex. A kiss isn't just a kiss; it's a commitment of participation and complicity. I love all the kisses, but this one beats them all in my book.
-
Exactly right. Jack was definitly the "leader during this, but it's what Ennis wanted. He wanted to be led. Could'nt quite express it but Just the fact that he was there, in the tent to Jack's surpise, expressed alot to Jack and Ennis as well. I can't even imagine how Jack must have felt when he saw Ennis at the door of the tent. He must have wanted to yell YESSSSS!, and do a happy dance. ( I know I did) This symbolized so much too. Their bonding was sealed with this kiss The tentativeness of it adds to the eroctic flavor (that's just me). ;D ;)
-
Friends, what do you think about the struggle between Ennis and Jack during the FNIT? Do you think it was an aborted kiss that was shown?
It seemed to me that they were struggling with the thought of kissing each other at that moment. They were fighting against their feelings, because, as was said, kissing would signify a higher meaning -- something they dare not acknowledge during the FNIT. I think that this struggle only found resolution in the kiss of the SNIT. In this sense, we can think of the FNIT and the SNIT as connected scenes -- the latter the culmination/fruition of what was begun and left uncompleted in the former.
-
I think Jack wanted to kiss Ennis in the FNIT Thomas....he tries several times to bring Ennis' mouth to his but I think he sees in Ennis' eyes that he's not ready for that. Ennis clearly feels that flipping Jack over and taking him is less intimate than kissing, which certainly suggests a connection on an emotional level rather than a purely physical one.
The discussion above about the SNIT kisses is superb. Although there is something beautiful about their first kiss, for me, the most perfect moment of all is once Jack is lying on top of Ennis, when Ennis raises his head off the bedroll and kisses Jack back. That's the moment he really gives in to everything he's feeling and falls in love, I think.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi60.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh26%2FNoReins%2Fcap0047.jpg&hash=a955778a77bff5a38c2c61d18eaca84613a806de)
-
They could, if they didn't show any affection, pass the thing off next day as a product of drink and frustration ( I mean in the sense of having no women around) and laugh it off as just one of those things you do when you aren't sober. Could even present it as some sort of sign of the strength of their sexual desires in the way that some men makle a big thing about telling you how they can't go a day without sex.But kissing someone or even making any sort of affectionate gesture is a whole different thing. Then you're admitting that affection is involved and that you know what you are doing to show it - you're admitting to feelings, not just physical urges.
I wonder if at the beginning of the FNIT sequence Jack thought he might kiss Ennis as a sign that he wantd more than just a quick f**k, then Ennis ressited and Jack let him do whatever he wanted rather than scare him away by asking for what he wasn't prepared to give.
-
Jack tried several times to kiss Ennis in FNIT, but Ennis resisted, turning away , putting his head down etc. I agree with you WW. Jack quickly got it that Ennis was'nt ready yet for this ultimate ,very intimate gesture and settled for the foreheads touching instead. I beleive Jack with his eyes closed and nuzzling against Ennis's face was trying to show Ennis the extent of his feelings for him. Saying to Ennis that he had fallen for him and desired intimacy with him. So urgent and determined to do so . Ennis, at first appeared to be unbeleivably shocked at what Jack was doing. But it turned him on to a great degree. I don't think he expected to feel this way either, but eventually gave in to the seduction that Jack so blatenly laid on him. When Jack unbuckled his pants, there was no doubt in Ennis's mind where Jack was taking this, and decided he'd better take the lead not knowing what Jack, being in control was going to require of him to do. At this point though Jack was willing to go along with wherever direction Ennis wanted to go. He wanted itimacy with him, anyway he could get it kisses or no kisses. He wanted to be Ennis's first lover and the opportunity to better gauge where Ennis's feeling llie about him. His suspicions were confirmed, he'd guessed right. In SNIT when he did get the chance to control the intimacy, he smothered Ennis with kisses.Sweet. :^^)
-
Not too much to add because the prior posts say it all so well but yes, Thomas, Jack was trying to kiss Ennis during FNIT. That makes SNIT so much more romantic to me- Ennis had done his thinking, they had their little talk and then Ennis takes this huge step by going into the tent, hat in hand and surrending himself to Jack. <^(
-
I think Jack wanted to kiss Ennis in the FNIT Thomas....he tries several times to bring Ennis' mouth to his but I think he sees in Ennis' eyes that he's not ready for that. Ennis clearly feels that flipping Jack over and taking him is less intimate than kissing, which certainly suggests a connection on an emotional level rather than a purely physical one.
The discussion above about the SNIT kisses is superb. Although there is something beautiful about their first kiss, for me, the most perfect moment of all is once Jack is lying on top of Ennis, when Ennis raises his head off the bedroll and kisses Jack back. That's the moment he really gives in to everything he's feeling and falls in love, I think.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi60.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh26%2FNoReins%2Fcap0047.jpg&hash=a955778a77bff5a38c2c61d18eaca84613a806de)
Wonderfully said, Lindsay! Yes, the act of flipping Jack over seemed less an intimacy to Ennis. For one, they don't have to see each other's faces during the act. Which is why your comment about Jack lying on top of Ennis makes absolutely perfect sense. Ennis seemed to have difficulty keeping his eyes open -- he was still struggling at looking at their love in the face. And yet he allows Jack to lead him on and he inevitable responds. That is the way he finally acknowledges the feeling between them: by the act of returning Jack's kiss with a kiss.
-
I wonder if at the beginning of the FNIT sequence Jack thought he might kiss Ennis as a sign that he wantd more than just a quick f**k, then Ennis ressited and Jack let him do whatever he wanted rather than scare him away by asking for what he wasn't prepared to give.
This too. I think Jack wanted Ennis, and he was not prepared to quibble in the way that Ennis would have him at that very moment.
-
No Jack was'nt looking for any formal ceremonies or fancy words and Ennis was'nt scrambling for any instruction manuals either. We're talkin raw, urgent desire in these two. The build up to this moment, a slow train coming so to speak, was a spectacle of longing, desire,and trust. I think the atraction was there from the start, especially on Jack's part. More open with his than Ennis, But Ennis had to see something in Jack to agree to spend long hours alone on a mountain all summer with him. When these two came together I was shocked I must admit at the raw urgency of this scene. But I was also rivited to the screen as this unfolded. Jack's determination to put a face to these feelings they BOTH felt by this time bringing Ennis along to see it ...and see himself too. He got a better look in SNIT. 2 cents
-
In my heart I believe this was love at first sight for both of them. It slowly blossomed from their first tentative glances outside Aguirre's trailer and inside also. In the trailer, Ennis was the first to glance Jack's way.
Jack was gentle with Ennis getting him to slowly open up and come out of his shell.
Making a fool of himself, just to amuse him.
I think that when Ennis remarked that he had not yet had the opprotunity to be a sinner,
it was a subtle hint thrown Jack's way. He was open to more than just ordinary friendship.
Getting drunk together was the perfect excuse to explore their mutual interest in each other,
which is often the case with 2 unsophisticated men.
Ennis held back on the first night, still constrained by the doubts and fears of his childhood.
But after a day full of self-examination, he let his heart rule over his mind. Returning Jack's kiss
that night was his full-blown declaration of love.
Of course this is just my take on it.
-
I wonder what Jack meant by " fellas like you and me" march off to hell? Was he insinuating something? or was he fishing for information about Ennis's sexual experiences? Ennis says " you may be a sinner"...."But I've yet to have the opportunity"
I think FNIT happened as a result of the mutual feelings they had for each other. In case there was any hesitation to put some real meaning behind these feelings and commummate them, the alcohol removed it. This is another reason I have to beleive that Jack orchestrated this FNIT in a major way, ( though Ennis definitly or quickly became a willing partner, just needed a little nudge) because of what he knew and charming insight into Ennis himself. At first he tried to coax Ennis into the tent . Then later he laid awake and appeared to be a little frustrated when he finally demanded Ennis "get in here" <^( ;D I have to beleive this was more than about Ennis being "cold". Was Ennis's "hammering" really that loud? He was clear across the way from the tent. Jack had to be awake thinking about this IMO. I think Ennis's "stalling" was starting to get to him. He knew that he felt the same things he did but did'nt know how to express it. Once he decided to confirm his suspicions things took on a natural flow, the slow build up resulting in this raw,urgent, and very erotic lovemaking session known as the FNIT.
-
I think the "fellas like you and me" comment is simply a hang-over from his upbringing - children were often taught that if you didn't go to church regularly, say your prayers, avoid all sorts of "sinful" things, you'd go to hell.And getting involved with another man, far less kissing him or having sex with him, would certainly qualify.
-
No Jack was'nt looking for any formal ceremonies or fancy words and Ennis was'nt scrambling for any instruction manuals either. We're talkin raw, urgent desire in these two. The build up to this moment, a slow train coming so to speak, was a spectacle of longing, desire,and trust. I think the atraction was there from the start, especially on Jack's part. More open with his than Ennis, But Ennis had to see something in Jack to agree to spend long hours alone on a mountain all summer with him. When these two came together I was shocked I must admit at the raw urgency of this scene. But I was also rivited to the screen as this unfolded. Jack's determination to put a face to these feelings they BOTH felt by this time bringing Ennis along to see it ...and see himself too. He got a better look in SNIT. 2 cents
Yes, there was indeed rasw urgency to this. The only other kiss that reflects a similar raw urgency was the Reunion kiss.
-
In my heart I believe this was love at first sight for both of them. It slowly blossomed from their first tentative glances outside Aguirre's trailer and inside also. In the trailer, Ennis was the first to glance Jack's way.
Jack was gentle with Ennis getting him to slowly open up and come out of his shell.
Making a fool of himself, just to amuse him.
I think that when Ennis remarked that he had not yet had the opprotunity to be a sinner,
it was a subtle hint thrown Jack's way. He was open to more than just ordinary friendship.
Getting drunk together was the perfect excuse to explore their mutual interest in each other,
which is often the case with 2 unsophisticated men.
Ennis held back on the first night, still constrained by the doubts and fears of his childhood.
But after a day full of self-examination, he let his heart rule over his mind. Returning Jack's kiss
that night was his full-blown declaration of love.
Of course this is just my take on it.
This is my take on this, also. IN a way, it was still a reluctant kiss (with the eyes trying not to see), but it was an affirmation kiss, nonetheless.
It was their first true kiss.
-
When Ennis first allowed Jack to kiss him, he responded very tentatively, as you said above. However, when they lay down, Ennis raises his head to be kissed. I consider this to be Ennis first 100% willing, willful kiss. He wanted Jack and was willing at that moment to let Jack know he was into this thing for the duration. It's just that little movement of raising his head that says it all to me. Had he just lain there and let Jack kiss him, the meaning would be quite different. (JMHP)
-
When Ennis first allowed Jack to kiss him, he responded very tentatively, as you said above. However, when they lay down, Ennis raises his head to be kissed. I consider this to be Ennis first 100% willing, willful kiss. He wanted Jack and was willing at that moment to let Jack know he was into this thing for the duration. It's just that little movement of raising his head that says it all to me. Had he just lain there and let Jack kiss him, the meaning would be quite different. (JMHP)
This is quite true. And such a wonderful detail that speaks volumes. Thanks lamusica. It is indeed the sign that Ennis does this willfully, willingly.
-
Compared to the kisses ( I say pecks) they gave their wives in the film their own kisses were two freight trains coliding. The head raising to meet Jack's kisses were from a very willing Ennis indeed , and he kicked it up a notch when he pulled Jack over on top. And Jack willingly obliged. OMG I totally lost it when I first saw this. Still do.
-
Compared to the kisses ( I say pecks) they gave their wives in the film their own kisses were two freight trains coliding. The head raising to meet Jack's kisses were from a very willing Ennis indeed , and he kicked it up a notch when he pulled Jack over on top. And Jack willingly obliged. OMG I totally lost it when I first saw this. Still do.
The only other kisses exchanged with much hunger was the love scene between Lureen and Jack inside the car. These kisses do project lstrong ust and passion. At that moment, I don't think that there was that much deep love between the two of them.
-
In terms of the urgency, yes Lureen was definitly way ahead of Jack. But he liked the direction she took it. LOL! That look in his eyes makes me smile. Apparently he had'nt been "taken" this way by a woman before. I think he liked the aggression. Besides she had to be in before midnight. ;)
-
In terms of the urgency, yes Lureen was definitly way ahead of Jack. But he liked the direction she took it. LOL! That look in his eyes makes me smile. Apparently he had'nt been "taken" this way by a woman before. I think he liked the aggression. Besides she had to be in before midnight. ;)
It's interesting to note that Jack was relatively passive with Lureen. Of course, he was active in the sense that he was the penetrator and she the penetrated, but he was definitely passive in that he allowed Lureen to do her will with him (was she on top all the time, I wonder?)
More to the topic, he mostly received her kisses. This is quite interesting psychologically speaking. It was as if Jack was certain about his charms and attractiveness to the female sex and acted in a blatantly confident manner -- waiting to be serviced, so to speak. This leads me to suspect that he must have had prior experiences with women -- although given that he waited for Lureen to make the first move, I would hazard that the women came to him, and not he to them.
-
Being aware of his true leanings, it's probably necessary for the woman to make the first move on him. Though he accepted their kisses, being a sexually confident man ,it probably was'nt as enjoyable as if it was another male though, especially if he had feelings for the guy. SNIT proved this where was he was definitly the agressor. When you compare the kisses between Jack/Lureen and the ones with Jack/Ennis it's like night and day.
-
I do think he was more flattered than anything else being attractive to a sex that was probably not his first preference. This is consistent with the way he received the kisses.
But did he experience pleasure with the young Lureen? Probably. There was a humger in his kisses that was not fake. The hunger was almost brutal -- as if he needed the release, not having what he truly wanted.
-
Or, at that point, knowing? He and Ennis hadn't exactly parted on good terms. Maybe he was swept away by Lureen's enthusiasm, so to speak, or maybe he was even fantasizing that she was Ennis?
-
Or, at that point, knowing? He and Ennis hadn't exactly parted on good terms. Maybe he was swept away by Lureen's enthusiasm, so to speak, or maybe he was even fantasizing that she was Ennis?
Funny you mentioned this, as I had though that maybe Jack was imagining he was kissing Ennis when he was kissing LUreen.
AFTER ALL: Ennis surely had Jack in mind when he was kissing Alma with his eyes closed (and flipped her over in the end...)
-
Oh yes , and when he was dancing with her in the bar, his face had ENNIS written all over it. It is the same look IMO that he had outside with Randall.
-
Funny you mentioned this, as I had though that maybe Jack was imagining he was kissing Ennis when he was kissing LUreen.
AFTER ALL: Ennis surely had Jack in mind when he was kissing Alma with his eyes closed (and flipped her over in the end...)
I think you're right, Thomas - I think both of them were thinking of the other when they were with their wives.
You can certainly see it in the scene where Ennis closes his eyes before kissing Alma. There's a moment when the look in his eyes changes - when she says "not so lonely like you were raised" - and you know he's thinking that he wasn't lonely with Jack but he is with her because he wishes she was Jack.
-
I think you're right, Thomas - I think both of them were thinking of the other when they were with their wives.
You can certainly see it in the scene where Ennis closes his eyes before kissing Alma. There's a moment when the look in his eyes changes - when she says "not so lonely like you were raised" - and you know he's thinking that he wasn't lonely with Jack but he is with her because he wishes she was Jack.
Yes, I think the moment in the scene where Ennis closes his eyes and the moment in the other scene where Jack stares out while dancing with Lureen act as bookends that balance each other out. I do think it is more explicit in the scene between Ennis and Alma, but one can read enough in the scene between Jack and Lureen to realize the connection that still binds the two of them, separated as they were by circumstances of their own making/choosing.
-
They were lucky to have loved like this too tpe . I agree. To imagine themselves with each other while engaged in intimate settings with someone else speaks to their desperate strong desire and longing to be together.It's also sad for them to have to do it but it could'nt be helped I suppose.
-
They were lucky to have loved like this too tpe . I agree. To imagine themselves with each other while engaged in intimate settings with someone else speaks to their desperate strong desire and longing to be together.It's also sad for them to have to do it but it could'nt be helped I suppose.
The kisses exchanged between Ennis/Jack and Alma?Lureen: they were both real and imaginary, no? Quite a duality here. They hungered for love and found some solace in the arms of surrogates. Yes in their minds' eye, they kissed each other.
-
I have read this thread with much pleasure.
It has reminded me of the scene of their first trip together back to Brokeback Mountain. Ennis is looking up at the sky, and he says he is sending up a prayerof thanks.
In that scene, Ennis is extraordinarily happy, and his emotions spill out in words, something which he never did before. The intensity of his gratitude seems to me to be worth a slow long kiss.
The intensity of the fear he expresses when he says no to Jack's "It could be like this always" is also like a strong cuddle, looking for protection.
-
I have read this thread with much pleasure.
It has reminded me of the scene of their first trip together back to Brokeback Mountain. Ennis is looking up at the sky, and he says he is sending up a prayerof thanks.
In that scene, Ennis is extraordinarily happy, and his emotions spill out in words, something which he never did before. The intensity of his gratitude seems to me to be worth a slow long kiss.
The intensity of the fear he expresses when he says no to Jack's "It could be like this always" is also like a strong cuddle, looking for protection.
One would say that it may very well be the equivalent of one long kiss. Such a smile or such a kiss would be a manifestation that Ennis was in heaven. :)
-
Then, of course, there is the shirts scene.... One long, sad kiss....
-
Then, of course, there is the shirts scene.... One long, sad kiss....
It was a kiss, wasn't it. I know he basically smelled it, but he did it in such a way that one would think he was holding Jack in his arms and administering a kiss...
-
Oh wow Stephan and Tpe- that's beautiful :\'(
-
Perhaps it was Jack's astral body that Ennis kissed in that closet.
-
I found this thread only today, interesting discussions indeed. There is something however that wasn't discussed, the fatherly kisses of Ennis. We all aggree he looks sincere and passionate only when he kisses Jack. What about his daughters? He is as sincere here as a father loving his daughters.
1st example when he holds and kisses a crying baby Jenny.
2nd example, the last scene at the trailer when Junior steps out the car and she gets a warm welcoming kiss from her dad.
And thare are sad kisses like, when Ennis is about to leave for his first ''fishing trip'', he kisses both Junior and Alma on the cheek (''see you Sunday Ladies'') and he looks so guilty. :( :-\\
Alma's world collapsed because she witnessed her husband kissing another man like she was never kissed before, this is one sad scene when she is left alone holding Junior. :\'(
-
Perhaps it was Jack's astral body that Ennis kissed in that closet.
Here come the tears again :\'( :\'( :\'(
-
I found this thread only today, interesting discussions indeed. There is something however that wasn't discussed, the fatherly kisses of Ennis. We all aggree he looks sincere and passionate only when he kisses Jack. What about his daughters? He is as sincere here as a father loving his daughters.
1st example when he holds and kisses a crying baby Jenny.
2nd example, the last scene at the trailer when Junior steps out the car and she gets a warm welcoming kiss from her dad.
And thare are sad kisses like, when Ennis is about to leave for his first ''fishing trip'', he kisses both Junior and Alma on the cheek (''see you Sunday Ladies'') and he looks so guilty. :( :-\\
Alma's world collapsed because she witnessed her husband kissing another man like she was never kissed before, this is one sad scene when she is left alone holding Junior. :\'(
Very beautiful, Pierre. We do see many forms of kisses, specifiacally with Ennis. The kisses he gives his daughters are indeed distinct, as they are almost tantamount to a benediction.
Of course, Ennis as father also receives kisses. What I have in mind is the tender kiss of greeting given by Alma Jr. in the last scene (she did kiss him, correct?)
-
Here come the tears again :\'( :\'( :\'(
Don't be sad, greenfrog. Jack would have kissed Ennis back to comfort him.
-
Of course, Ennis as father also receives kisses. What I have in mind is the tender kiss of greeting given by Alma Jr. in the last scene (she did kiss him, correct?)
I guess they do kiss each other, some hug & kiss. I need to check.
-
It would surprise us, I'm sure, if we try to catalogue all the kisses in BBM! Some of it we probably miss or just take for granted.
-
not to count an aborted kiss like the one after the divorce, they hug and Jack is obviously initiating a kiss when Ennis stops him, his girls are there waiting in the truck among other reasons.
-
not to count an aborted kiss like the one after the divorce, they hug and Jack is obviously initiating a kiss when Ennis stops him, his girls are there waiting in the truck among other reasons.
Yes! When Jack's hand reaches out to grab Ennis from behind the neck, it was an attempt to KISS Ennis, no? We had the same impression!
:)
-
I love this thread...so many kinds of kisses, so many different meanings... <^(
My favorite kiss has to be their first one (SNIT). That whole sequence, starting with Ennis coming into the tent, and them kissing and lying down together, and then Jack rolling on top of him...absolutely breathtaking.
-
A million tommorrows may all pass away.
I won't forget all the joy that is mine today.....-Artist unknown-
-
not to count an aborted kiss like the one after the divorce, they hug and Jack is obviously initiating a kiss when Ennis stops him, his girls are there waiting in the truck among other reasons.
I completely agree, Chameau.
The scene of "fight" Ennis and Jack have when Aguirre orders them to leave Brokeback Mountain reflects Ennis's sadness of leaving Jack. Their physical contact, isn't it a sort of kiss ? A kiss symbolised by the contrary ?
-
I love this thread...so many kinds of kisses, so many different meanings... <^(
My favorite kiss has to be their first one (SNIT). That whole sequence, starting with Ennis coming into the tent, and them kissing and lying down together, and then Jack rolling on top of him...absolutely breathtaking.
Specifically, the wet opening kiss...
-
I completely agree, Chameau.
The scene of "fight" Ennis and Jack have when Aguirre orders them to leave Brokeback Mountain reflects Ennis's sadness of leaving Jack. Their physical contact, isn't it a sort of kiss ? A kiss symbolised by the contrary ?
Well, I always thought that the punch Ennis gave Jack was a sort of kiss, and the fight was an act of making love...
-
Specifically, the wet opening kiss...
Oohhhh my goodness, yes!!! Sigh...!
-
The kiss Ennis gave to Alma right before he goes off with Jack during the reunion has always fascinated me. What did it exactly mean? I don't think he kissed Alma insincerely. It was tender and full of genuine feeling. And yet, Ennis knew (and Alma knew) that it was a kiss of betrayal. Was it supposed to reassure Alma? Was Ennis still battling with his feelings. Although Ennis loved Jack, I think that in a way, he did love Alma...
-
^^I agree; I believe Ennis had some kind of affection for Alma, and was perhaps trying to reassure her (maybe that's not the right word for it, sorry). He didn't know that Alma had seen him kissing Jack.
-
^^I agree; I believe Ennis had some kind of affection for Alma, and was perhaps trying to reassure her (maybe that's not the right word for it, sorry). He didn't know that Alma had seen him kissing Jack.
Yes, had Ennis known that Alma saw them kissing, we may suspect that his parting kiss was more for dissembling. But he didn't know, and so, the parting kiss must have been sincere.
-
Yeah, but even in the love scenes between Ennis and Alma, I did'nt see or feel the the passion between them. Not like between him and Jack. He was just going through the motions with her.It was only a pretense for his real feelings.This is what I got.
-
Agreed. But it's not passion that we see in the kiss he gives Alma before going off with Jack: it has more of a tender, caring quality. Or was he sorry for Alma? I think it shows more of genuine tenderness than sorrow. I think that he did genuinely care for her then -- even as he goes of with the one person he truly loves.
-
It ocurred to me the other night that Ennis says "come here" to both Jack and Alma, just before the reunion kiss, and then when he kisses Alma goodbye the next morning. I'm not saying there's any significance in that, it's a normal thing to say, but the fact that he says the same words before each kiss just emphasises how differently he says it, and how different the kisses were.
I think thre's genuine affection there when Ennis kisses Alma, as well as guilt that he's betraying her, but there's no passion whatsoever (I agree with aintfoolin, I don't see any passion in any of their scenes together) unlike when he kisses Jack. Ennis knows that Alma can never come close to making him feel the way Jack does, but he knows that "ain't her fault", and I think he feels the need, as jacks_key says, to reassure her that he still loves her in his own way, and to reassure himself too, that he's still a regular straight guy with a wife and kids, even as he can't wait to get away with Jack.
-
You reminded me of the "ain't her fault" part of the conversation with Jack. Perhaps then -- in the light of this thought expressed by Ennis -- there is an element of GUILT in that kiss Ennis gives Alma right before he leaves with Jack for the fishing trip. Tenderness and affection can come about because of guilt, no? Still, I suspect that even without the sense of guilt, Ennis did have genuine affection for Alma, and it would have showed in his kisses, at least before their marriage deteriorated.
-
You reminded me of the "ain't her fault" part of the conversation with Jack. Perhaps then -- in the light of this thought expressed by Ennis -- there is an element of GUILT in that kiss Ennis gives Alma right before he leaves with Jack for the fishing trip. Tenderness and affection can come about because of guilt, no? Still, I suspect that even without the sense of guilt, Ennis did have genuine affection for Alma, and it would have showed in his kisses, at least before their marriage deteriorated.
I totally agree, in fact I think it's precisely because Ennis does care for Alma that he feels guilty about betraying her, if he didn't feel genuine love (albeit in a different way to the love he has for Jack) for her, he wouldn't care that he was betraying her. *o) This is in contrast to Jack's attitude to Lureen, he would leave her without a second thought to go off with Ennis, which suggests that whatever feelings he might have had for Lureen had pretty much disappeared by the time he gets back in touch with Ennis.
-
The kiss Ennis gave to Alma right before he goes off with Jack during the reunion has always fascinated me. What did it exactly mean? I don't think he kissed Alma insincerely. It was tender and full of genuine feeling. And yet, Ennis knew (and Alma knew) that it was a kiss of betrayal. Was it supposed to reassure Alma? Was Ennis still battling with his feelings. Although Ennis loved Jack, I think that in a way, he did love Alma...
He was sincere but was feeling guilty, he cheated on Alma the night before which he never did before his marriage. For me it's obvious he was sure feeling guilty but he didn't knew Alma saw him and Jack kissing.
-
And his plight of guilt was'nt helped at all with little Alma running up to him talking about " bring big fish home" and he quickly hands her to Alma. At this point it's clear he was in one world with Jack and Alma was in another. I think he loved and cared for Alma too, but he was'nt "in love" with her. This little "peck" was out of guilt, and Jack was waiting downstairs. He knew he could'nt stay and after what she'd seen, she knew he WOULD'NT stay. She never really had him anyway. My take.
-
Are you saying it's some sort of Judas kiss?
It seems to me a mixture, partly conventional - when you're going off somewhere you kiss your wife goodbye, ad Ennis is nothing if not (outwardly) conventional - and partly the result of guilt. He knows they're going to go on as they did the night before and thus in conventioanl terms he is betraying Alma ( though in some moods I think the whole thing with Alma is one long betrayal of Jack).
-
I totally agree, in fact I think it's precisely because Ennis does care for Alma that he feels guilty about betraying her, if he didn't feel genuine love (albeit in a different way to the love he has for Jack) for her, he wouldn't care that he was betraying her. *o) This is in contrast to Jack's attitude to Lureen, he would leave her without a second thought to go off with Ennis, which suggests that whatever feelings he might have had for Lureen had pretty much disappeared by the time he gets back in touch with Ennis.
I would agree. The kiss that Jack gave Lureen at the end of the "blue parka" scene is described in the screenplay as distant, and barely touching. This is in effect what was enacted.
Jack's kisses to Lureen as shown in the film are either like this or simply exhibit by lust or desire. And yet I have no doubt that Jack did feel genuine affection for Lureen in the beginning -- it was not Jack's way to NOT be affectionate, I think. But his affection cooled when Lureen cooled. This can be seen in the "blue parka" kiss.
I think in the final years, they were not kissing at all -- else, any kiss they would have exchanged would have been simply an automatic act -- devoid of any true meaning or emotion.
-
He was sincere but was feeling guilty, he cheated on Alma the night before which he never did before his marriage. For me it's obvious he was sure feeling guilty but he didn't knew Alma saw him and Jack kissing.
Yes, it was a good thing he didn't know. I don't think he would have been able to kiss her at all if he knew that she knew.
-
And his plight of guilt was'nt helped at all with little Alma running up to him talking about " bring big fish home" and he quickly hands her to Alma. At this point it's clear he was in one world with Jack and Alma was in another. I think he loved and cared for Alma too, but he was'nt "in love" with her. This little "peck" was out of guilt, and Jack was waiting downstairs. He knew he could'nt stay and after what she'd seen, she knew he WOULD'NT stay. She never really had him anyway. My take.
It is interesting that in the end, you only saw them kissing while attempting to make love -- again, in a context purely driven by desire.
It is telling that at the end of the "power company" scene, you expected Ennis to kiss Alma when she said "forgot something?" Of course, they never kissed. I think they had drifted too far apart at this point.
-
Are you saying it's some sort of Judas kiss?
It seems to me a mixture, partly conventional - when you're going off somewhere you kiss your wife goodbye, ad Ennis is nothing if not (outwardly) conventional - and partly the result of guilt. He knows they're going to go on as they did the night before and thus in conventioanl terms he is betraying Alma ( though in some moods I think the whole thing with Alma is one long betrayal of Jack).
It's not exactly a Judas kiss as there was some remorse and true affection at that point on Ennis's part (Judas only showed remorse much later). The original Greek of the Gospel uses a word that denotes an unclean kiss to describe Judas's kiss -- a kiss similar to that given by a prostitute to a client, or a kiss that was sexually charged. I don't think this was the context and mood of Ennis's kiss.
-
To start, I find it rather odd that in all the scenes between Ennis and Cassie (at least all those retained in the final version of the movie), we never see them kiss, am I right? If I am correct in this observation, then I would say that such an omission is very telling. What does it tell us of the relationship between the two of them? I would assume that as (reluctant?) lovers, they must have exchanged kisses at one time or another. And yet, no such kiss was shown in the movie...
No, Ennis and Cassie are never shown kissing. In fact I don't think Ennis would have ever dated Cassie, OR made a move on another women. She came on to him so strongly, its possible that Ennis just went with the flow. He was worried about people thinking he was queer...as is evidenced in the conversation with Jack beside the stream "they look at you like they all know". So I think he used her to make people believe he was straight. I think Ennis thought she would make him appear "normal." But the relationship doesn't seem to have lasted very long. He soon begins avoiding her. He probably found another bar to drink in, so if she came by his house he wouldn't be there.
-
No, Ennis and Cassie are never shown kissing. In fact I don't think Ennis would have ever dated Cassie, OR made a move on another women. She came on to him so strongly, its possible that Ennis just went with the flow. He was worried about people thinking he was queer...as is evidenced in the conversation with Jack beside the stream "they look at you like they all know". So I think he used her to make people believe he was straight. I think Ennis thought she would make him appear "normal." But the relationship doesn't seem to have lasted very long. He soon begins avoiding her. He probably found another bar to drink in, so if she came by his house he wouldn't be there.
The short story perhaps seems to indicate that Cassie had been to Ennis's home, because the cheap white wine that he uses to toast Jr's wedding is supposedly a left-over from his time with Cassie.
It could be possible that they dated (wasn't the scene with Cassie and Jr a kind of double-date?), but I do agree that Ennis was tepid about all the entire affair and seemed to have dealt with Cassie without much passion...
They certainly were not shown kissing. That detail is telling...
-
When Ennis refers to his affair with Cassie he calls it "putting the blocks to" -- not loving, or even f---ing. He shows no feeling towards her and what they are doing together. Cassie, on the other hand, says she loved Ennis. Again, another woman loving Ennis and getting nowhere because Ennis' head just isn't with them. He's fixated on Jack and that's all she wrote.
I think the kiss while sledding shows Ennis is fond of Alma -- probably loves her as much as a lot of men love their wives. There's just no passion there as there is with Jack -- thus the hot kisses with Jack. Those kisses aren't for show. They are necessary and wonderful -- life-giving to the love between the two men.
Yes even the first time they show Ennis and Alma making love, the girls are still really small, so they haven't been married that long. They kiss, but it doesn't seem to be with much passion. He lays her down on her back and turns out the light. She's saying, "Come here," trying to make him kiss her. He kisses her almost dutifully, but next thing you know he's turning her over and "does quickly what she hates" as the story says. I am sure when she witnesses those reunion kisses between Ennis and Jack, she suddenly realizes why she could hardly get him to kiss her and why he wanted to have sex with her the way he did. I felt so sorry for her. Ennis could never ever love her the way he loved Jack.
-
(...) I am sure when she witnesses those reunion kisses between Ennis and Jack, she suddenly realizes why she could hardly get him to kiss her and why he wanted to have sex with her the way he did. I felt so sorry for her. Ennis could never ever love her the way he loved Jack.
Alma's predicament did hurt her, and she could only remain "dutifully" married to Ennis for a few years. I found the second bedroom scene between Ennis and Alma even sadder. Alma was upset about missing the evening at the church, and she revenged herself on Ennis by mentioning his incapacity to earn a better salary :-\\
-
Oh, yes I agree with so many of you.
Both these woman, Alma and Cassie, were looking for some sort of validation that they even existed to Ennis. Alma's provoking Ennis at Thanksgiving, She wanted him to feel the pain she felt all those years ago, even though she's married, having a baby, and living in a real house provided by the Supermarket guy. She still couldn't it let go, she wanted to see some kind reaction from Ennis, and she got it. Cassie, by asking Alma, Jr. her father would marry again, was sad, apparently she had no idea of where she stood with Ennis, or how deep their relationship went. If she have to go his daughter for answers, the question she should have asked herself was "How deep is he into me?"
-
Along with what you just said, Manhattangirl, the kisses Ennis shares with Alma are sexless indeed. They're tender ( while sledding and at the wedding), but without passion. With Jack, though, there's no restraints. He doesn't need to be tender with Jack. He can let out the real force of his feelings and need - thus the bone-crushing kisses. I think the second kiss at the reunion scene is the hottest I have ever seen on screen. Jack kisses Ennis in response to Ennis's kiss a few seconds earlier, but Jack puts everything into that kiss. He is brutal. They were so physically close at that time, they were almost climbing into each other. This is the definitive definition of a passionate kiss, in MO. My favorite in the movie, for sure.
-
^^I completely agree. The reunion kiss is probably the hottest kiss I have ever seen in a movie.
-
Yes even the first time they show Ennis and Alma making love, the girls are still really small, so they haven't been married that long. They kiss, but it doesn't seem to be with much passion. He lays her down on her back and turns out the light. She's saying, "Come here," trying to make him kiss her. He kisses her almost dutifully, but next thing you know he's turning her over and "does quickly what she hates" as the story says. I am sure when she witnesses those reunion kisses between Ennis and Jack, she suddenly realizes why she could hardly get him to kiss her and why he wanted to have sex with her the way he did. I felt so sorry for her. Ennis could never ever love her the way he loved Jack.
Those kisses he gave Alma during that scene -- they were clearly meant for another, as is hinted at by the "flip" scene...
-
Alma's predicament did hurt her, and she could only remain "dutifully" married to Ennis for a few years. I found the second bedroom scene between Ennis and Alma even sadder. Alma was upset about missing the evening at the church, and she revenged herself on Ennis by mentioning his incapacity to earn a better salary :-\\
Yes, the kisses in those scene are certainly sad kisses, no? There was no real fire in them. They were just fulfilling a need in that scene. It seemed to be devoid of ddper feelings for each other.
-
Oh, yes I agree with so many of you.
Both these woman, Alma and Cassie, were looking for some sort of validation that they even existed to Ennis. Alma's provoking Ennis at Thanksgiving, She wanted him to feel the pain she felt all those years ago, even though she's married, having a baby, and living in a real house provided by the Supermarket guy. She still couldn't it let go, she wanted to see some kind reaction from Ennis, and she got it. Cassie, by asking Alma, Jr. her father would marry again, was sad, apparently she had no idea of where she stood with Ennis, or how deep their relationship went. If she have to go his daughter for answers, the question she should have asked herself was "How deep is he into me?"
Beautifully said, manhattangirl. Thank you.
It was a validation of some sort. They wanted to validate that they mattered in his life. What is telling in the case of Cassie is that we never see them kiss -- it is symptomatic of the lack of true intmacy between them. That was why Cassie needed some 3rd party to validate this for her.
-
Along with what you just said, Manhattangirl, the kisses Ennis shares with Alma are sexless indeed. They're tender ( while sledding and at the wedding), but without passion. With Jack, though, there's no restraints. He doesn't need to be tender with Jack. He can let out the real force of his feelings and need - thus the bone-crushing kisses. I think the second kiss at the reunion scene is the hottest I have ever seen on screen. Jack kisses Ennis in response to Ennis's kiss a few seconds earlier, but Jack puts everything into that kiss. He is brutal. They were so physically close at that time, they were almost climbing into each other. This is the definitive definition of a passionate kiss, in MO. My favorite in the movie, for sure.
The kisses shared between Jack and Ennis -- every other kiss in the movie pales in comparison....
-
How about the kiss of death?
In some perverse way, I had envisioned Jack's murder as a sylized form of the act itself. It is as if one envisions the tire iron administering brutal kisses.
Sorry for sounding so morbid. I can't help it...
-
Rather than morbid, I think the kiss of death idea is just sad. My mind doesn't want to go there with the tire iron. I want to block that tiny snippet of a scene.
-
Thanks lamusica. I do find it heartbreaking. But I just call to mind a certain screencap that shows the tire iron touching Jack's bloody face on the lips. It is as if he kisses the instrument of martyrdom in death.
-
That was indeed one ugly brutal scene. That tire iron layed across his face breaking his nose. Too painful to watch.
-
That was indeed one ugly brutal scene. That tire iron layed across his face breaking his nose. Too painful to watch.
But there is lyricism in that scene also, because we hear nothing. Do you know what I mean? It is like the tire iron administering the kiss of death. The reality must be infinitely brutal, with the "kiss" spattering blood and flesh everywhere...
-
The songs of death and hate drowning the songs of love and life (Jack) and that leathal blow or kiss ends it all. Yes, thats how I see that ugly scene.
-
Yes After all this time I cannot watch the "death scene" without covering my eyes or sqinting. It's so powerfully brutal and sad.
I just happenesd to watch the reunion scene last night and I must say this award winning kiss is the stuff dreams are made of. Ennis had waited all friggin day to do this. The look in his eyes when he laid eyes on Jack again after four years (sigh). Wild horses coud'nt have stopped him from running down those steps to feel Jack in his arms again. I don't know how much planning Ennis did or if it was a spur of the moment thing, but when he laid that SWEET kiss on Jack I thought about the contrasting passion element with those he gave Alma. FORGETABOUTIT!. This was pure raw desire at it's finest. I was so happy for Jack ,( the suprised look on his face ) was priceless. He totally did not expect this Ennis though he had high hopes. His statement "Oh God" before he himself gave as well as he got is very telling.Alma? Who's Alma?....Damn!
-
Yes After all this time I cannot watch the "death scene" without covering my eyes or sqinting. It's so powerfully brutal and sad.
I just happenesd to watch the reunion scene last night and I must say this award winning kiss is the stuff dreams are made of. Ennis had waited all friggin day to do this. The look in his eyes when he laid eyes on Jack again after four years (sigh). Wild horses coud'nt have stopped him from running down those steps to feel Jack in his arms again. I don't know how much planning Ennis did or if it was a spur of the moment thing, but when he laid that SWEET kiss on Jack I thought about the contrasting passion element with those he gave Alma. FORGETABOUTIT!. This was pure raw desire at it's finest. I was so happy for Jack ,( the suprised look on his face ) was priceless. He totally did not expect this Ennis though he had high hopes. His statement "Oh God" before he himself gave as well as he got is very telling.Alma? Who's Alma?....Damn!
Yes, that kiss is the most amazing kiss in the movie. And what makes it even better is the fact that Ennis acted first. He doesn't need Jack to initiate, although Jack was the first to send the post card.
-
Yes After all this time I cannot watch the "death scene" without covering my eyes or sqinting. It's so powerfully brutal and sad.
I just happenesd to watch the reunion scene last night and I must say this award winning kiss is the stuff dreams are made of. Ennis had waited all friggin day to do this. The look in his eyes when he laid eyes on Jack again after four years (sigh). Wild horses coud'nt have stopped him from running down those steps to feel Jack in his arms again. I don't know how much planning Ennis did or if it was a spur of the moment thing, but when he laid that SWEET kiss on Jack I thought about the contrasting passion element with those he gave Alma. FORGETABOUTIT!. This was pure raw desire at it's finest. I was so happy for Jack ,( the suprised look on his face ) was priceless. He totally did not expect this Ennis though he had high hopes. His statement "Oh God" before he himself gave as well as he got is very telling.Alma? Who's Alma?....Damn!
There is one word that describes that kiss: elemental. As I said in another post, how could have Jack doubted Ennis's love for him after that kiss?
-
Jack sent that postcard, yes indeed. and was as if Jack had sent Ennis the rest of his life. I think when Alma announced that there was a postcard from Jack, Ennis knew then that a new chapter in his life was about to open. Jack was coming back into he's life and this time he was;nt about to let him slip away again. When he came home from work that day there was no kisses for lma or Alma Jr. either. His body language when he came home that day spoke volumes. He was bored or frustrated about something ,same old ,same old. When he knew Jack was coming he knew what was missing all along. The real spice of his life....Jack. Those kisses were genuine. At long last ...love. IMO all three of these women including Cassie were hoping for something that could never be. :^^) :c) <^( My 2 cents.
-
It's amazing what an emotional rollercoaster that part of the movie is. After seeing the mundane lives they led in the intervening 4 years, we were not totally prepared to take in the intensity of the reunion kiss. I think the great contrasts and sudden emotional surge was deliberate. That kiss leaps over the intervening 4 years to bring us back to the Mountain, or at least what it signified.
-
There is one word that describes that kiss: elemental. As I said in another post, how could have Jack doubted Ennis's love for him after that kiss?
The way I see it, Jack often thought that Ennis wanted him for sex only and not loving him enough to live with him. This kiss was very passionate as opposed to the dozy embrace which is pure love and very sweet, the kind that I think Jack has been searching for all his life.
-
^^Well said, JT. I completely agree. :)
-
The way I see it, Jack often thought that Ennis wanted him for sex only and not loving him enough to live with him. This kiss was very passionate as opposed to the dozy embrace which is pure love and very sweet, the kind that I think Jack has been searching for all his life.
Yes, he longed for this. In a sense, the Dozy Embrace is greater than any kiss.
-
or me the dozy embrace is a parallele with SNIT - both are slow and full of tenderness, not passionate but revealing the underlying closeness that ought to be part of a lasting relationship. Passion and desire die away, but caring and affection don't.
-
I liken the Dozy Embrace to a chaste but meaningful kiss, while the embraces and kisses in SNIT and in the reunion scene are more about passion as much as about love.
It is interesting that Jack remembered an embrace rather than a kiss. It is hard to disassociate passion from a kiss shared by 2 lovers, no? For me, it is telling that an embrace is used to signify sexless desire. It reminds me of some of Burne-Jones paintings of sexless/quasi-religious embraces, as opposed to Rossetti's more voluptuous representations of kisses and embraces.
-
It is interesting that Jack remembered an embrace rather than a kiss. It is hard to disassociate passion from a kiss shared by 2 lovers, no? For me, it is telling that an embrace is used to signify sexless desire. It reminds me of some of Burne-Jones paintings of sexless/quasi-religious embraces, as opposed to Rossetti's more voluptuous representations of kisses and embraces.
For me when the dozzy embrance occurs, it's later in the summer, there is less sexual frenzy and more assumed love I would say.
-
For me when the dozzy embrance occurs, it's later in the summer, there is less sexual frenzy and more assumed love I would say.
It was like the "autumn" of their love on Brokeback, I guess. What started with a frenzy of passionate kisses ended with something very close to contentment.