Author Topic: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?  (Read 62556 times)

Offline aintfoolin

  • Ennis
  • ******
  • Posts: 1623
  • Gender: Female
  • " You and him did'nt go up there to fish"...
Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #120 on: Jun 13, 2007, 07:29 AM »
Beautifully said Tpe. My sentiments exactly!
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #121 on: Jun 13, 2007, 06:17 PM »
Beautifully said Tpe. My sentiments exactly!

Thanks, aintfoolin, for this confirmation!

Ennis struggling with himself: I guess there lies the issue of dominance.




Offline ksxks

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 11571
  • Gender: Female
  • brokeback got us good
Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #122 on: Jun 13, 2007, 09:12 PM »
Thanks, aintfoolin, for this confirmation!

Ennis struggling with himself: I guess there lies the issue of dominance.

Dominance is about control, and Ennis's struggling was certainly about control.  Trying to make sure he and Jack were safe.  As for his supposed denial of his sexuality, if the world at that time welcomed homosexuals with open arms, he would not have been struggling so.

kathy
They were respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected.

manhattangirl

  • Guest
Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #123 on: Jun 14, 2007, 06:06 AM »
Although the confrontation scene was a contest of wills and an exchange of recriminations, I do think that Ennis never consciously intended to impose his will on Jack.  As I had noted in earlier posts, Ennis was probably convinced that his way of doing things was the only way to preserve their love from the hostility of society as they knew it.

I think Ennis finally collapsing shows that his attempt to dominate HIS OWN emotions about hios love for Jack proved futile.  As much as he wanted to deny his love for another man, he could not bring himself to repudiate it.  "I can't stand it anymore, Jack" indicates that the power struggle was as much inside Ennis as it was between the two of them.



It was exactly at that point that Ennis's control, dominance slips, you're right it wasn't to control Jack, but more likely then not it was all in the effort to control himself.   But when Jack wasn't willing to play along in this effort, when it looked as if he going to call it quits, Ennis didn't strike out against him, he breaks down.   Ennis's control was based on Jack's willingness to let him have it, and as always Jack yields again to Ennis.     

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #124 on: Jun 14, 2007, 01:43 PM »
It was exactly at that point that Ennis's control, dominance slips, you're right it wasn't to control Jack, but more likely then not it was all in the effort to control himself.   But when Jack wasn't willing to play along in this effort, when it looked as if he going to call it quits, Ennis didn't strike out against him, he breaks down.   Ennis's control was based on Jack's willingness to let him have it, and as always Jack yields again to Ennis.     

And you know what, manhattangirl?  IN spite of all the frustration, I think Jack loved Ennis all the more because of this.  Jack perhaps willingly subjected himself to an Ennis dominated by unseen demons.   It was the best he could do out of love.


Offline jetzenpolis

  • Alma Jr.
  • **
  • Posts: 62
  • Gender: Male
  • jetzenpolis
Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #125 on: Jun 14, 2007, 03:45 PM »
Ennis, Despite His Doubts, Keeps Jack (Doesn't Want to Destroy Jack's Marriage to Lureen, Either?)

The incompatibility apparently didn't keep Ennis from releasing Jack.   I wonder,   I don't know about that.  But going on along on the premise stated here, wouldn't that make Ennis morally dishonest, a hypocrite and Jack his victim?    He loses the " moral high ground", every time he sleeps with Jack, who is he kidding?

Or am I wrong here?

It's an interesting point, manhattangirl.  Ennis obviously is torn between his love for Jack and his wish to remain "decent."    

Ennis's wish for he & Jack to "remain decent" is a matter of Ennis's commitment to the welfare of his wife, Alma, and his daughters, Alma, Jr. and Jenny, and Jack's commitment to his wife, Lureen, and his son, Bobby.  Ennis's fear of being harmed, or even murdered, with the exposure of their homosexuality also prevents him from living with Jack.  

In addition, mental rigidity also prevents him from expanding his view of the world beyond a social conformity to the homophobic values of the conservative rural Wyoming he lives in.  A more liberal view would allow him the opportunity to live an openly homosexual life.  (There is some sign in the movie that Ennis was adapting a more liberal view of his homosexuality.  Ennis is watching a TV show - with a dark haired man on the TV screen and a hand gun flashed in the background - in his & Alma's apartment over the laundromat.  Alma asks Ennis if he wants to go to a church dance.  Ennis, who was very introverted anyway and probably doesn't enjoy going out to social events where he has to meet large numbers of people, tells Alma he doesn't want to be around the fire-and-brimstone crowd.)

Perhaps Ennis has doubts about living with Jack, even in the end - when Ennis's own daughters are close to the age of majority (18 years old) and he will no longer have to pay child support - because he is also troubled about destroying Jack's marriage.  At one point, Ennis asks Jack if everything is "normal" in their marriage between him and Lureen.  Ennis & Jack are on a camping trip (the one by the stream? where Ennis asks if people "know" about "fellas like us" - if they can tell if you are homosexual just by looking at you).

Ennis seems somewhat surprised that Jack has managed to stay together so long with Lureen.  In fact, things even seem to stay on an even keel between Jack & Lureen (at least from Ennis's perspective), unlike Ennis's marriage to Alma (with Ennis's & Alma's many fights and the gradual distance between them that grows ever wider).  

Of course, there are fewer financial pressures on Jack & Lureen's marriage.  They are family members of a family-owned and operated farm implement dealership in Childress, TX (just slightly to the southeast of Texas' northern panhandle).  Ennis, despite Alma's suggestion to become utilities worker, chooses to remain a ranch hand, telling Alma in a self-deprecatingly joking manner that he's so clumsy he'd probably electrocute himself.  (Ennis is actually very athletic.  He's a good horseman.  He's quick when he uses his fists in a fight.)  Alma decides to work in the grocery store, herself, to bring in more family income.

But Jack later tells Ennis (on the barren shore of the mountain lake, before their May 1983 argument?) that he and Lureen might as well be conducting their marriage over the telephone.  If Jack & Lureen are already leading separate lives (perhaps not consciously doing so), there may be less opportunity for them to have the sort of disagreements Ennis & Alma had.  

Lureen is very busy in the farm implement dealership.  (She is probably a workaholic, just like Ennis.)  

Yet, Lureen also would like her husband to pay more attention to her.  Jack & Lureen are sitting together at the same table with Randall Malone and Randall's wife, Lashawn.  The two women begin to complain - in apparent good humor (yet, also leaving no doubt they'd like things to be different) - about how husbands never like to dance with their wives.  Obviously, Lureen is hinting that she would like Jack to ask her to dance (and, perhaps, in general, be more attentive to her, romantically).  But, instead, Jack asks Randall's wife if she wants to dance!

What would be the right way for Ennis & Jack to get out of their marriages (if Ennis were to ever agree to any of Jack's plans for them to live together)?  Obviously, there are no hard and fast rules, here.  

Under many circumstances, two male lovers may simply need to clear out of their marriages as fast they can,  without ever stopping to look back (sometimes even when children are involved).  It might be too dangerous for these two male lovers to inform their wives about what they are planning to do, when they are going to do it, and where they'll end up - let alone tell their wives who they are planning to do this with (their male lover).  

Ennis knows what can happen to two men who live together.  Ennis knows all-too-well what happened to the old gay ranchers, Earl & Ray.  (With his father laughing, Ennis was shown Earl's body in the irrigation ditch, with his penis pulled off and his face covered in welts from the beatings of a tire iron, when Ennis was nine years old.)  

Even heterosexual extramarital affairs can be dangerous enough, at times.  (A jealous spouse might kill the husband or wife who leaves the marriage for somebody else, even if the third party is of the opposite gender.)

But, in general, isn't it best for gay men to explain to their wives what has happened?  Their wives are people whom they've lived with intimately.  They've shared their lives with them.  

Certainly, their wives have invested a large part of themselves in their marriage (even if their husband is gay).  Presumably, they love their husbands.  It would be very difficult to lose a husband you love (even if he were gay).

If married gay men discuss their predicament (being a gay man married to a straight woman) with their wives, they might reduce the emotional pain of the situation: for their wives, as well as themselves.  Their wives could have already suspected something is "wrong" in the marriage.  Knowing what's "wrong" might help.  At least, they'd have a better understanding of the dilemma they were facing.  Nonetheless, when a gay man leaves his marriage, it is bound to inflict emotional pain upon his wife (as the partner left behind).  

Alma "knew what she saw" when she saw Ennis & Jack kissing each other through the screen door of the apartment above the laundromat in Riverton, WY in 1967.  Finding the note in the tackle box that she had left for Ennis - the tackle box that he had never opened in five years of "fishing" trips with Jack - only confirmed for Alma what she already knew Ennis & Jack were doing together on their "fishing" trips.  

Lureen, too, might have had her suspicions about Jack.  Ennis calls Jack long-distance in Texas after the postcard he sends Jack returns marked deceased.  

(On the postcard, Ennis wrote Jack they could meet in November - as Ennis originally wanted to do, which was the start of his & Jack's May 1983 argument.)   It is the second time he's called Jack long-distance in Texas.  (The first time was when Alma divorced Ennis.  Jack mistakenly thought Ennis was saying they were now free to live together and immediately drove 1200 miles from Texas to be with him.  Ennis probably turned to Jack - as his confidant to whom he told everything to - in consolation for the loss of his marriage to Alma.)  

Lureen answers the phone.

Lureen tells Ennis over the telephone that she didn't know how to contact Ennis.  Jack kept all the names and telephone numbers of his friends in his head (including Ennis's name and telephone number).  Why would Jack feel he needed to keep his friends hidden from her?  

Lureen said Jack's body was cremated.  He wanted the ashes taken to Brokeback Mt.  Jack always talked about Brokeback Mt. being his favorite place.  Lureen tells Ennis it might only be an imaginary place where the bluebirds sing at the whiskey springs.  When Ennis tells her, "No, ma'am.  Brokeback Mountain was a real place...," Lureen's eyes become watery, although the business voice she is using remains cold.   Ennis told her that was where he & Jack herded sheep one summer.
  
Needless to say, any children in such a marriage will also feel the loss of a father (a gay father) if the marriage ends.  After a divorce, children usually see one parent much less frequently than they did when their parents were still married to each other (and living in the same house, in the same town).

Sometimes, a gay husband and a straight wife might agree to stay married even after the husband reveals he is gay.  The wife may allow the husband to have a male lover, to satisfy sexual and emotional needs that can't otherwise be met within the marriage.  

Obviously, such an arrangement - openly arrived at between husband and wife - might be difficult for Ennis to imagine between himself and Alma.  But he was already living that way.  

In fact, he decided, himself, that was what he & Jack were going to do.  He makes this decision quickly at the Siesta Motel (in the Short Story).  He justifies it by telling Jack that this was all they could do - since they were already married and had children.  (The homophobic society they lived in might also kill them if they chose to do otherwise.)

All that was possible for them to do in this situation was to go on living as they were - and see each other once in a while.  Jack responds, "Once every four fu**in' years, Ennis?!"  (Ennis quickly replies it would be more often than that.)
In the distance between what you "try to believe" and what you "know": never trust what you try to make yourself believe; trust what your intuition knows.

manhattangirl

  • Guest
Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #126 on: Jun 15, 2007, 05:27 AM »
Ennis's wish for he & Jack to "remain decent" is a matter of Ennis's commitment to the welfare of his wife, Alma, and his daughters, Alma, Jr. and Jenny, and Jack's commitment to his wife, Lureen, and his son, Bobby.

Ennis tending the sheep?   Or did he want the protection?   Sheparding in the center of the flock, the flock wandered off, and he was alone.  His fear is what he tended, held on to, and his fear is what flourish.           






Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #127 on: Jun 15, 2007, 06:59 AM »
Ennis tending the sheep?   Or did he want the protection?   Sheparding in the center of the flock, the flock wandered off, and he was alone.  His fear is what he tended, held on to, and his fear is what flourish.           

If I understand you correctly here manhattangirl, you are bringing up the issue of whether Ennis "used" his wife and family as a protective facade behind which he could hide his true self, am I correct?

I do agree that Ennis seemed to have been dominated by his own fears, primarily.




manhattangirl

  • Guest
Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #128 on: Jun 15, 2007, 07:31 AM »
Yes, I've always believe that his marriage to him, insured his safety,  remember when he told Jack of his divorce and Jack went to him, ,  his fear showed the minute Jack pulled up in the truck.  He had to hurt Jack, then embrace him, why?  Remember the look on his face at the passing truck, and the way he brushed Jack off. 

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #129 on: Jun 15, 2007, 08:02 AM »
Yes, I've always believe that his marriage to him, insured his safety,  remember when he told Jack of his divorce and Jack went to him, ,  his fear showed the minute Jack pulled up in the truck.  He had to hurt Jack, then embrace him, why?  Remember the look on his face at the passing truck, and the way he brushed Jack off. 

Perhaps he loved Alma in his own peculiar way.  And he did seem to love his daughters.  But yes, I somehow share your feeling that he used his marriage this way.  The fear that dominated him seemed to have spilled over into his own life decisions regarding marriage and family.   


manhattangirl

  • Guest
Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #130 on: Jun 15, 2007, 09:59 PM »
Perhaps he loved Alma in his own peculiar way.  And he did seem to love his daughters.  But yes, I somehow share your feeling that he used his marriage this way.  The fear that dominated him seemed to have spilled over into his own life decisions regarding marriage and family.  

I doubt if Ennis in any way loved Alma, I know that is what most of us like to think he loved her in one way or another, but I feel he care for her, felt responsible for her, but love?   Ennis lived his life as it was taught to him, as he saw it.  His sister married, his brother married, so when he found himself on his own, at nineteen, he also will marry.  Ennis lived his life not questioning anything, doing what he was suppose to.   He was content with what life was seemingly giving him.

Who is Ennis really?   This is not questioned until he meets Jack.   Ennis was then introduce to himself in a way that ran counter to everything he was taught.  He came into his own emotionally, spiritually, sexually in the arms of another man, and this was too much for him to accept, but couldn't reject.   He fought hard against the idea of his homosexuality but celebrated it in the love he found with Jack. 

Ennis tried to live the "unqueer" life, desperately holding on the facade, as it slips away from him, he couldn't control his heart, his mind, his body it belonged to Jack Twist, and there was nothing he could do about it. 
« Last Edit: Jun 16, 2007, 06:34 AM by manhattangirl »

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #131 on: Jun 18, 2007, 08:25 AM »
I doubt if Ennis in any way loved Alma, I know that is what most of us like to think he loved her in one way or another, but I feel he care for her, felt responsible for her, but love?   Ennis lived his life as it was taught to him, as he saw it.  His sister married, his brother married, so when he found himself on his own, at nineteen, he also will marry.  Ennis lived his life not questioning anything, doing what he was suppose to.   He was content with what life was seemingly giving him.

Who is Ennis really?   This is not questioned until he meets Jack.   Ennis was then introduce to himself in a way that ran counter to everything he was taught.  He came into his own emotionally, spiritually, sexually in the arms of another man, and this was too much for him to accept, but couldn't reject.   He fought hard against the idea of his homosexuality but celebrated it in the love he found with Jack. 

Ennis tried to live the "unqueer" life, desperately holding on the facade, as it slips away from him, he couldn't control his heart, his mind, his body it belonged to Jack Twist, and there was nothing he could do about it. 

You may have a point.  Perhaps he cared for her more than he loved her.  And initially, he did seem to dominate her initially, no? 

It is really hard to put a clean answer to Ennis's identity, especially when we talk about the dymanic of dominance with regard to his love for Jack.  But yes, one thing I seem to know is that he struggled primarily with himslef and his identity because of what he found out about himself through Jack.  THis is perhaps why his struggle at mastery over himself became somewhat disguised into waht seemed like a desire to dominate Jack -- Jack was, after all, the catalyst for the struggle within.


Offline ksxks

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 11571
  • Gender: Female
  • brokeback got us good
Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #132 on: Jun 18, 2007, 10:19 PM »
You may have a point.  Perhaps he cared for her more than he loved her.  And initially, he did seem to dominate her initially, no? 

It is really hard to put a clean answer to Ennis's identity, especially when we talk about the dymanic of dominance with regard to his love for Jack.  But yes, one thing I seem to know is that he struggled primarily with himself and his identity because of what he found out about himself through Jack.  This is perhaps why his struggle at mastery over himself became somewhat disguised into what seemed like a desire to dominate Jack -- Jack was, after all, the catalyst for the struggle within.

This is just right, Thomas.  Ennis is a difficult person and personality, and how you have described it is probably very close to just what was going on with him in his dealings with Jack.

kathy
They were respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected.

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #133 on: Jun 19, 2007, 07:03 AM »
This is just right, Thomas.  Ennis is a difficult person and personality, and how you have described it is probably very close to just what was going on with him in his dealings with Jack.

kathy

Thanks kathy.

Often, we fear those people we love the most because they hold the power to reveal to us so much of who we are.  This is why we sometimes resist love, as much as we try to embrace it.




Offline jetzenpolis

  • Alma Jr.
  • **
  • Posts: 62
  • Gender: Male
  • jetzenpolis
Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #134 on: Jun 19, 2007, 07:57 PM »
Alma's Independence; Did Ennis Love Alma?

You may have a point.  Perhaps he cared for her more than he loved her.  And initially, he did seem to dominate her initially, no? 


If Ennis did "dominate" Alma, initially, was it that she, too, was willing to go along with what Ennis wanted (just as Jack did later on)?  She agreed to live on a lonely ranch, far away from other people (who being far away would be less likely to find out about Ennis's homosexuality). 

Ennis, on a ranch, would find it easier to maintain the facade of being "normal" (heterosexual), since being on a ranch helped to reinforce a particular image of himself.  (Ennis describes his parents as "ranch folk" to Jack, very early in the movie.)

But later, of course, Alma begins to assert herself more in their marriage.  She persuades Ennis to move to town.  She meets his practical argument to the contrary by finding a cheap place to live in town: the apartment over the laundromat in Riverton, WY (meeting Ennis's contention that living on the ranch was cheaper than living in town).  She also overcomes his emotional sentiments to stay on the ranch by telling Ennis that his daughters, Alma, Jr. and Jenny, will be able to have friends and won't have to grow up as "lonely" as Ennis did (an argument that convinces Ennis despite having at least one brother and one sister, if not more, of his own).  Alma adds that she won't be as "lonely" in town, either.  Neither will Ennis.

At this point, if it wasn't that way before, the balance (of who loves the other most) in their marriage becomes equal.  (It may have been that way before.  At the outdoor drive-in movie, when they are sitting in their vehicle watching a black & white Southern California beach movie typical of the 1960s, Ennis drapes his arm behind Alma.  She pulls his hand down onto her shoulder, the fingers touching her body.  He accepts her gesture showing a wish for greater closeness betwen them he doesn't resist.)

It's hard to distinguish between "caring" and "love."  I suppose "love" is a word to show taking pleasure in having love for somebody.  (Certainly, Ennis took great pleasure in his love of Jack, for example.)  Yet, watching Ennis & Alma slide down the snowy hill on the sled, and playing with each other, when Alma pulls him into the snow, there were also times when Ennis enjoyed Alma's company, too.

I think that Ennis, at least as far as he described his own views (to Jack at the Siesta Motel in 1967) would say that even if he & Jack didn't love their wives, they should still remain with them.  At the Siesta Motel, Ennis told Jack they should remain "decent" - presumably by remaining with their wives and children, taking these commitments seriously.  Ennis may have even doubted Jack wanted his son, Bobby.  (Jack said that he'd rather have "none of neither" when Ennis tells him that he wished he had a boy, just as Jack had.  But Jack was probably just frustrated by Ennis's unwillingness to live together.  He did care about his son's educational difficulties because of dyslexia.)

I agree that Ennis was afraid - very afraid - of what might happen to both him & Jack if their public heterosexual facades were to be removed (if they fell apart simply because Ennis & Jack stopped caring about carrying on the pretense of heterosexuality or if they were stripped away from them because of their exposure by others, such as Alma's accusation, when she and Ennis were washing dishes together after Thanksgiving).

But I think also Ennis cared about his wife and daughters: about what would happen to them if he left them for Jack.  How would they feel?  How much would they be hurt?  I also think worried about what would happen to Jack's family in the same way (even if Jack didn't appear to).
In the distance between what you "try to believe" and what you "know": never trust what you try to make yourself believe; trust what your intuition knows.

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #135 on: Jun 20, 2007, 07:13 AM »
Alma's Independence; Did Ennis Love Alma?

If Ennis did "dominate" Alma, initially, was it that she, too, was willing to go along with what Ennis wanted (just as Jack did later on)?  She agreed to live on a lonely ranch, far away from other people (who being far away would be less likely to find out about Ennis's homosexuality). 

Ennis, on a ranch, would find it easier to maintain the facade of being "normal" (heterosexual), since being on a ranch helped to reinforce a particular image of himself.  (Ennis describes his parents as "ranch folk" to Jack, very early in the movie.)

But later, of course, Alma begins to assert herself more in their marriage.  She persuades Ennis to move to town.  She meets his practical argument to the contrary by finding a cheap place to live in town: the apartment over the laundromat in Riverton, WY (meeting Ennis's contention that living on the ranch was cheaper than living in town).  She also overcomes his emotional sentiments to stay on the ranch by telling Ennis that his daughters, Alma, Jr. and Jenny, will be able to have friends and won't have to grow up as "lonely" as Ennis did (an argument that convinces Ennis despite having at least one brother and one sister, if not more, of his own).  Alma adds that she won't be as "lonely" in town, either.  Neither will Ennis.

At this point, if it wasn't that way before, the balance (of who loves the other most) in their marriage becomes equal.  (It may have been that way before.  At the outdoor drive-in movie, when they are sitting in their vehicle watching a black & white Southern California beach movie typical of the 1960s, Ennis drapes his arm behind Alma.  She pulls his hand down onto her shoulder, the fingers touching her body.  He accepts her gesture showing a wish for greater closeness betwen them he doesn't resist.)

It's hard to distinguish between "caring" and "love."  I suppose "love" is a word to show taking pleasure in having love for somebody.  (Certainly, Ennis took great pleasure in his love of Jack, for example.)  Yet, watching Ennis & Alma slide down the snowy hill on the sled, and playing with each other, when Alma pulls him into the snow, there were also times when Ennis enjoyed Alma's company, too.

I think that Ennis, at least as far as he described his own views (to Jack at the Siesta Motel in 1967) would say that even if he & Jack didn't love their wives, they should still remain with them.  At the Siesta Motel, Ennis told Jack they should remain "decent" - presumably by remaining with their wives and children, taking these commitments seriously.  Ennis may have even doubted Jack wanted his son, Bobby.  (Jack said that he'd rather have "none of neither" when Ennis tells him that he wished he had a boy, just as Jack had.  But Jack was probably just frustrated by Ennis's unwillingness to live together.  He did care about his son's educational difficulties because of dyslexia.)

I agree that Ennis was afraid - very afraid - of what might happen to both him & Jack if their public heterosexual facades were to be removed (if they fell apart simply because Ennis & Jack stopped caring about carrying on the pretense of heterosexuality or if they were stripped away from them because of their exposure by others, such as Alma's accusation, when she and Ennis were washing dishes together after Thanksgiving).

But I think also Ennis cared about his wife and daughters: about what would happen to them if he left them for Jack.  How would they feel?  How much would they be hurt?  I also think worried about what would happen to Jack's family in the same way (even if Jack didn't appear to).


What you say here makes a lot of sense to me, jetzenpolis.  she, too, was willing to go along with what Ennis wanted (just as Jack did later on)?  -- I think this reveals much about the situation.

Ennis caring for his family is certainly tied to his notion of decency: his idea of honor/integrity -- the right thing to do.  But I do think that he did love his daughters as much as a father could love those who are his own -- even if they are the fruit of something that turned out to be short of love.


Offline jetzenpolis

  • Alma Jr.
  • **
  • Posts: 62
  • Gender: Male
  • jetzenpolis
Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #136 on: Jun 20, 2007, 02:24 PM »
Ennis's Personality: Inner Conflict, Mixture of Many (often Contradictory) Traits, Values, Attitudes

...Ennis lived his life as it was taught to him, as he saw it.  His sister married, his brother married, so when he found himself on his own, at nineteen, he also will marry.  Ennis lived his life not questioning anything, doing what he was suppose to... 

Who is Ennis really?...

Ennis tried to live the "unqueer" life, desperately holding on the facade, as it slips away from him, he couldn't control his heart, his mind, his body...there was nothing he could do about it. 
 

It is really hard to put a clean answer to Ennis's identity, especially when we talk about the dynamic of dominance with regard to his love for Jack.  But yes, one thing I seem to know is that he struggled primarily with himself and his identity because of what he found out about himself through Jack.  This is perhaps why his struggle at mastery over himself became somewhat disguised into what seemed like a desire to dominate Jack -- Jack was, after all, the catalyst for the struggle within.


Ennis's personality is a composite of many conflicting character traits, values, aspirations, fears, and moods.  Thus, it is impossible to find a "clean" answer to Ennis's identity.

I agree, tpe, that Ennis's struggle is primarily with himself.  He has inner conflicts about what sort of social identity he has, in the relationships built between himself and the other people who are significant in his life: ranch hand, family man, husband, father, "normal" guy, homosexual, Jack's lover, etc.  In addition, he has to figure out how to balance these conflicting identities.  He must not only balance them with each other but also with his values and with his fears, emotions, conformities, and sense of independence.

As Ennis struggled for "mastery" over himself , he also seemed to subvert and sabotage this "mastery" of himself, too.  After all, it is Ennis who replies, "You bet" (presumably with excitement), when Jack sends his first post card addressed "general delivery" to Ennis in Riverton, WY in 1967.  Ennis comes under the control of the "thing" (his uncontrolled emotions of joy upon seeing Jack, again, for the first time in four years) and initiates his kiss with Jack at the bottom of the steps up to the apartment over the laundromat.  Ennis sees Jack frequently after that on "fishing" trips.  (In their May 1983 argument, Jack complains that Ennis used to "come away easy" - from Alma and his daughters for their "fishing" trips.)  Alma, in their Thanksgiving argument, while doing the dishes at her second husband Monroe's house, points out that Ennis was all "perky" when he came back from his "fishing" trips with Jack.  (Alma tells Ennis that he never took her and their daughters on any vacations, only Jack.)

Ennis never stops seeing Jack.  Even after their May 1983 argument, Ennis is ready to go on as before.  He sends Jack a postcard saying that they can meet in November (just as Ennis originally decided upon before their May 1983 argument, much to Jack's resulting disappointment and bitterness).  Only when the postcard is returned marked "deceased" does Ennis discover that Jack is dead.

My take on Ennis is that he would never agree to live with Jack, although he still loves him and would go on seeing him regularly (on "fishing" trips, a couple of times per year, in a cold place, far away, for a "high altitude f***" as Jack complained in their May 1983 argument).  I believe there are differences in their attitudes that could not be overcome (or that Ennis was unwilling to overcome). 

However, everything else that has been said about why Ennis refuses to live with Jack is also probably correct.  Ennis is afraid of what will happen to him and Jack if their homosexuality is exposed.  As manhattangirl says, Ennis may have sought conformity to the world around him in order to avoid being in conflict with it.  Thus, by blending in, camouflaged (so to speak, as a "heterosexual"), he remains safe from it (and its homophobia).  Ennis might have gone along with what everybody else did because he, too, wanted to be "normal" (heterosexual) just like everybody else, even if he wasn't.  As an introvert, Ennis probably didn't wish to "stand out," either.

Again, it's not an "either/or" question in regard to Ennis's personality.  That is, it's not a question of whether Ennis is either "afraid" of living with Jack (because of society's hatred of their homosexuality) or whether Ennis doesn't "want" to live with Jack (for reasons of his own because of differences between their personalities, values, attitudes, outlooks on life, etc.). 

Rather than it being an "either/or" question, Ennis can be both:  he's both afraid of public exposure of his & Jack's homosexuality and he's also troubled by many things he sees in Jack's attitude.  (For example, Ennis appears to be troubled by Jack's homosexual promiscuity.  Perhaps Ennis may have been less troubled by this than it first appears, though.  He could have already suspected Jack was having sex with other men for a long time.  When Ennis says,  "...Mexico?  I know what boys like you, Jack, do in Mexico..." and "If I ever find about what I don't know...," in their May 1983 argument, he is saying, more or less, that he already knows what Jack does and is willing to pretend that it's not happening.  I suspect there's something else that's troubling him about Jack that would prevent him from ever agreeing to live with him.)

Whatever character traits, attitudes, and behaviors Jack has that might make it impossible for Ennis to agree to Jack's wish to live together, it can be agreed that substantial differences between them exist.  It's just a matter of how much weight which with these differences press down upon the question of their living together.  I might say that these differences between Ennis & Jack weigh enough on Ennis's mind that they prevent him from agreeing to live with Jack.  You might say although these differences exist, they would not be enough to prevent Ennis from living with Jack (if Ennis could overcome his own fears about his own homosexuality).

Nor do I think my interpretations of Ennis are necessarily the only ones.  Other viewpoints provide a very valuable perspective on Ennis.  For example, when Ennis & Alma are at the outdoor drive-in movie, watching a 1960s black & white Southern California beach movie, you could look at Ennis from many different angles.  Is Ennis just conforming to the standards of 1960s American society and its expectations of universal heterosexuality as "normal" when he drapes his arm behind Alma, sitting beside him in the vehicle?  You might also see some hesitation in Ennis's movement of his arm, as he slides it into an outstretched position behind Alma.  Does such hesitation (whether it actually occurred in the movie or is only just a distortion of my memory) show Ennis's introversion and shyness, his uncertainty and self-doubt?  Or does it show that Ennis has his own doubts about the wisdom of pretending he's heterosexual (when he knows he isn't)?  Perhaps his conscience might be troubling him about "foolin'" Alma, leading her to believe that he has an heterosexual interest in her that he doesn't.  Perhaps all of these things are going on in Ennis at the same time.  There might be other thoughts within him that other people will see that we don't.  There's no certain answer, here.

Yet all of these different ways of looking at Ennis are helpful in providing insight into his character.

Ennis's personality is further complicated because he's become so expert at hiding what he feels and hiding who he is.  Alma, of course, in their Thanksgiving argument, having told Ennis that she found the same note she had put in his tackle box five years later, says "don't try to fool me Ennis!  Jack Twist?...Jack Nasty!"  Alma "knows" that Ennis & Jack were having sex together.  Ennis still tries to tell her "You know nuthin' about it!" as he grabs her arm and twists it to keep her from saying anything more.  (Ennis might also have been upset with her attack on Jack and her view of his love for Jack as something that's only "physical" sex and, thus, "dirty."  This might be a third case where Ennis lost control of himself.  He bolted, perhaps as much afraid of his own loss of self-control as of having his homosexuality exposed, with Alma shouting behind him, "Get out of my house!")

There's a psychological theory about how you can tell when people are lying in a courtroom.  Judges and lawyers often make the common mistake of thinking that if people are speaking loudly, shouting, yelling, and displaying lots of emotion they must be telling the truth.  (This is a very dangerous assumption, of course, and an unprofessional one, if it's used to determing the guilt or innocence of a defendant to any significant degree rather than relying upon physical evidence and the consistency of testimony.)

This theory relies upon an observation of the general character of facial expression while someone is speaking.  When someone is lying, their face becomes less animated.  The facial muscles are held more rigidly.  This rigidity in the expression of facial muscles is unconscious.  Someone telling a lie has no control over it.  Thus, when telling a lie - according to this theory - people will be noticeably less animated in their facial expressions than when they are being truthful.

I read about this theory in an article in the Minneapolis Star Tribune newspaper.  It could have been around the time of the Monica Lewinsky affair (or perhaps much earlier, since the article has stayed with me, in my memory, for a long time).  I decided to put it to the test. 

U.S. President Bill Clinton said in a nationally televised White House news conference, on January 26, 1998,  "I did not have sexual relations with that woman."  I watched his facial expression to see how rigid his face was.  For a normally very animated, effusive speaker such as Bill Clinton (who has been described as being at his "best" in front of an audience), his face seemed almost deathly stiff.

A similar rigidity appears on Ennis's face from time to time throughout the movie.  (Of course, this is how the actor, Heath Ledger, plays the character.  It is perhaps one of the best acting performances ever.  It is certainly one that Annie Proulx, herself, finds amazing, saying that she felt that Heath Ledger had read her mind when she saw the movie, in her January 19, 2006 "Bookworm" radio interview on KCRW-FM, the Santa Monica College radio station in Santa Monica, CA.) 

Ennis's facial rigidness seems especially pronounced after his divorce from Alma.  But it also occurs before his divorce.  On one of their camping trips (while Ennis is still married to Alma), Ennis tells Jack that there's no way two men can live together.  Then Ennis tells Jack about how his father showed his young son, Ennis, age 9, and his older brother, K.E., age 11, the old gay rancher Earl's body in the irrigation ditch, the face covered with welts from a tire iron.  Ennis's face is very rigid.  Ennis is looking away from Jack.  His eyes are sad (disappointed because he can't let himself agree to live with Jack?).  But his eyes look as if they are looking out through the mask Ennis's face has become.  Was Ennis lying to Jack when he told him there was no way two men could live together?

At times, Ennis's mask (facial rigidity) slips away.  It falls off when he asks Jack by the stream if Jack has ever wondered if people "know" about "fellas like us" (whether people could tell if Ennis & Jack were homosexual just by looking at them).  It's completely removed when Ennis breaks down in their May 1983 argument (and loses control of his emotions, perhaps the first - or second time - that happened since the "thing" overtook him, at the bottom of the landing steps to the apartment over the laundromat in 1967, when Ennis kissed Jack). 

He never puts that mask back on after that (at least not with so much rigidity).  His face never again seems to give his whole personality the impression of his mask's ghastly pallor.  He appears much more vulnerable.  He refuses to carry on the pretense of heterosexual romance with the waitress, Cassie.  There's a "young" look on his face when he sees Jack's parents in Lightning Flat, WY (when he attempts to collect Jack's ashes to take to Brokeback Mt.)  He even agrees to attend his daughter Alma, Jr.'s wedding.  His eyes are sad as he looks at the memorial he's made for Jack in his trailer, with the two bloody shirts from their last day on Brokeback Mt. (bloodied by Ennis's nose bleed caused accidentally by Jack) on a hanger with a postcard of Brokeback Mt.

Whatever it is that we see in Ennis's personality that draws us to him - or, whatever it is that we think we see in Ennis's personality - I think it starts to become clearer to us as we go over the details of the movie (again and again).  For those of who are so deeply moved by the movie, there is something deep inside of us that the movie has touched upon.  It is now emerging out of the depths of our minds, perhaps into conscious thought. 

It takes time for this happen.  In the meanwhile, we may feel a lot of confusion about Ennis and the other characters.  Our minds turn this way and that, as they grope their way through confusion to understanding.

To find answers to the question of Ennis's character, it's necessary to look at many different sides of his character.  These, of course, will leave varying impressions upon us, good and bad. 

We sort out which of these impressions seem most significant and which seem less significant.  I think it's vital that we always keep in mind what we find admirable in either Ennis or Jack (or any of the other characters).  We care about Brokeback Mountain because we care about what happens to the characters in it.  We care about the characters because we find something in them that moves us, that stirs our emotions.  I don't think Brokeback Mountain would have the effect upon us it has if we weren't touched to the heart by Ennis & Jack in some way.

In the distance between what you "try to believe" and what you "know": never trust what you try to make yourself believe; trust what your intuition knows.

manhattangirl

  • Guest
Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #137 on: Jun 21, 2007, 12:52 AM »
Ennis's "unqueernees"  he tried to project, his sexual desire, his need, and his love for Jack are all aspects of his life Ennis tried to dominate but had a tough time doing it, so what's the easier way of doing it, is to dominate the object of his uncontrollable desire.   

Jack knew this.   He knew exactly what Ennis was going through and why Ennis was doing it,   "I'm not you",  "I can't make it on a couple of high altitude f@#ks"  he tells Ennis in the end.  "you're too much for me",  "I wish I knew how to quit you".  And this coming from the object of desire, the one person he wasn't going to lose. 

Ennis tried to live exactly opposite of who he was.    But the idea of Ennis ever marrying again was out to the question.  Alma recommended Ennis remarry again, which he burshed off, Cassie asked his daughter about him remarrying, his daughter wisely answered "might not be the marrying kind",  Even Jack asked him why didn't remarry.   Ennis would never marry because life with a woman was impossible for him.  In the same respect life with Jack was also impossible for him, the fear of living with another man meant death, but Jack was the person he wasn't willing to let go, Jack gave him some kind of a life.

To be able to juggle all these aspects, emotions, one has to be able to dominate and control.   And for Ennis to keep control, he had to dominate, and he had to dominate Jack.   There was no other way to do it.  He had to keep some kind of appearance of normalcy, he had to keep Jack. 

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #138 on: Jun 21, 2007, 06:49 AM »
Ennis's Personality: Inner Conflict, Mixture of Many (often Contradictory) Traits, Values, Attitudes

Ennis's personality is a composite of many conflicting character traits, values, aspirations, fears, and moods.  Thus, it is impossible to find a "clean" answer to Ennis's identity.

I agree, tpe, that Ennis's struggle is primarily with himself.  He has inner conflicts about what sort of social identity he has, in the relationships built between himself and the other people who are significant in his life: ranch hand, family man, husband, father, "normal" guy, homosexual, Jack's lover, etc.  In addition, he has to figure out how to balance these conflicting identities.  He must not only balance them with each other but also with his values and with his fears, emotions, conformities, and sense of independence.

As Ennis struggled for "mastery" over himself , he also seemed to subvert and sabotage this "mastery" of himself, too.  After all, it is Ennis who replies, "You bet" (presumably with excitement), when Jack sends his first post card addressed "general delivery" to Ennis in Riverton, WY in 1967.  Ennis comes under the control of the "thing" (his uncontrolled emotions of joy upon seeing Jack, again, for the first time in four years) and initiates his kiss with Jack at the bottom of the steps up to the apartment over the laundromat.  Ennis sees Jack frequently after that on "fishing" trips.  (In their May 1983 argument, Jack complains that Ennis used to "come away easy" - from Alma and his daughters for their "fishing" trips.)  Alma, in their Thanksgiving argument, while doing the dishes at her second husband Monroe's house, points out that Ennis was all "perky" when he came back from his "fishing" trips with Jack.  (Alma tells Ennis that he never took her and their daughters on any vacations, only Jack.)

Ennis never stops seeing Jack.  Even after their May 1983 argument, Ennis is ready to go on as before.  He sends Jack a postcard saying that they can meet in November (just as Ennis originally decided upon before their May 1983 argument, much to Jack's resulting disappointment and bitterness).  Only when the postcard is returned marked "deceased" does Ennis discover that Jack is dead.

My take on Ennis is that he would never agree to live with Jack, although he still loves him and would go on seeing him regularly (on "fishing" trips, a couple of times per year, in a cold place, far away, for a "high altitude f***" as Jack complained in their May 1983 argument).  I believe there are differences in their attitudes that could not be overcome (or that Ennis was unwilling to overcome). 

However, everything else that has been said about why Ennis refuses to live with Jack is also probably correct.  Ennis is afraid of what will happen to him and Jack if their homosexuality is exposed.  As manhattangirl says, Ennis may have sought conformity to the world around him in order to avoid being in conflict with it.  Thus, by blending in, camouflaged (so to speak, as a "heterosexual"), he remains safe from it (and its homophobia).  Ennis might have gone along with what everybody else did because he, too, wanted to be "normal" (heterosexual) just like everybody else, even if he wasn't.  As an introvert, Ennis probably didn't wish to "stand out," either.

Again, it's not an "either/or" question in regard to Ennis's personality.  That is, it's not a question of whether Ennis is either "afraid" of living with Jack (because of society's hatred of their homosexuality) or whether Ennis doesn't "want" to live with Jack (for reasons of his own because of differences between their personalities, values, attitudes, outlooks on life, etc.). 

Rather than it being an "either/or" question, Ennis can be both:  he's both afraid of public exposure of his & Jack's homosexuality and he's also troubled by many things he sees in Jack's attitude.  (For example, Ennis appears to be troubled by Jack's homosexual promiscuity.  Perhaps Ennis may have been less troubled by this than it first appears, though.  He could have already suspected Jack was having sex with other men for a long time.  When Ennis says,  "...Mexico?  I know what boys like you, Jack, do in Mexico..." and "If I ever find about what I don't know...," in their May 1983 argument, he is saying, more or less, that he already knows what Jack does and is willing to pretend that it's not happening.  I suspect there's something else that's troubling him about Jack that would prevent him from ever agreeing to live with him.)

Whatever character traits, attitudes, and behaviors Jack has that might make it impossible for Ennis to agree to Jack's wish to live together, it can be agreed that substantial differences between them exist.  It's just a matter of how much weight which with these differences press down upon the question of their living together.  I might say that these differences between Ennis & Jack weigh enough on Ennis's mind that they prevent him from agreeing to live with Jack.  You might say although these differences exist, they would not be enough to prevent Ennis from living with Jack (if Ennis could overcome his own fears about his own homosexuality).

Nor do I think my interpretations of Ennis are necessarily the only ones.  Other viewpoints provide a very valuable perspective on Ennis.  For example, when Ennis & Alma are at the outdoor drive-in movie, watching a 1960s black & white Southern California beach movie, you could look at Ennis from many different angles.  Is Ennis just conforming to the standards of 1960s American society and its expectations of universal heterosexuality as "normal" when he drapes his arm behind Alma, sitting beside him in the vehicle?  You might also see some hesitation in Ennis's movement of his arm, as he slides it into an outstretched position behind Alma.  Does such hesitation (whether it actually occurred in the movie or is only just a distortion of my memory) show Ennis's introversion and shyness, his uncertainty and self-doubt?  Or does it show that Ennis has his own doubts about the wisdom of pretending he's heterosexual (when he knows he isn't)?  Perhaps his conscience might be troubling him about "foolin'" Alma, leading her to believe that he has an heterosexual interest in her that he doesn't.  Perhaps all of these things are going on in Ennis at the same time.  There might be other thoughts within him that other people will see that we don't.  There's no certain answer, here.

Yet all of these different ways of looking at Ennis are helpful in providing insight into his character.

Ennis's personality is further complicated because he's become so expert at hiding what he feels and hiding who he is.  Alma, of course, in their Thanksgiving argument, having told Ennis that she found the same note she had put in his tackle box five years later, says "don't try to fool me Ennis!  Jack Twist?...Jack Nasty!"  Alma "knows" that Ennis & Jack were having sex together.  Ennis still tries to tell her "You know nuthin' about it!" as he grabs her arm and twists it to keep her from saying anything more.  (Ennis might also have been upset with her attack on Jack and her view of his love for Jack as something that's only "physical" sex and, thus, "dirty."  This might be a third case where Ennis lost control of himself.  He bolted, perhaps as much afraid of his own loss of self-control as of having his homosexuality exposed, with Alma shouting behind him, "Get out of my house!")

There's a psychological theory about how you can tell when people are lying in a courtroom.  Judges and lawyers often make the common mistake of thinking that if people are speaking loudly, shouting, yelling, and displaying lots of emotion they must be telling the truth.  (This is a very dangerous assumption, of course, and an unprofessional one, if it's used to determing the guilt or innocence of a defendant to any significant degree rather than relying upon physical evidence and the consistency of testimony.)

This theory relies upon an observation of the general character of facial expression while someone is speaking.  When someone is lying, their face becomes less animated.  The facial muscles are held more rigidly.  This rigidity in the expression of facial muscles is unconscious.  Someone telling a lie has no control over it.  Thus, when telling a lie - according to this theory - people will be noticeably less animated in their facial expressions than when they are being truthful.

I read about this theory in an article in the Minneapolis Star Tribune newspaper.  It could have been around the time of the Monica Lewinsky affair (or perhaps much earlier, since the article has stayed with me, in my memory, for a long time).  I decided to put it to the test. 

U.S. President Bill Clinton said in a nationally televised White House news conference, on January 26, 1998,  "I did not have sexual relations with that woman."  I watched his facial expression to see how rigid his face was.  For a normally very animated, effusive speaker such as Bill Clinton (who has been described as being at his "best" in front of an audience), his face seemed almost deathly stiff.

A similar rigidity appears on Ennis's face from time to time throughout the movie.  (Of course, this is how the actor, Heath Ledger, plays the character.  It is perhaps one of the best acting performances ever.  It is certainly one that Annie Proulx, herself, finds amazing, saying that she felt that Heath Ledger had read her mind when she saw the movie, in her January 19, 2006 "Bookworm" radio interview on KCRW-FM, the Santa Monica College radio station in Santa Monica, CA.) 

Ennis's facial rigidness seems especially pronounced after his divorce from Alma.  But it also occurs before his divorce.  On one of their camping trips (while Ennis is still married to Alma), Ennis tells Jack that there's no way two men can live together.  Then Ennis tells Jack about how his father showed his young son, Ennis, age 9, and his older brother, K.E., age 11, the old gay rancher Earl's body in the irrigation ditch, the face covered with welts from a tire iron.  Ennis's face is very rigid.  Ennis is looking away from Jack.  His eyes are sad (disappointed because he can't let himself agree to live with Jack?).  But his eyes look as if they are looking out through the mask Ennis's face has become.  Was Ennis lying to Jack when he told him there was no way two men could live together?

At times, Ennis's mask (facial rigidity) slips away.  It falls off when he asks Jack by the stream if Jack has ever wondered if people "know" about "fellas like us" (whether people could tell if Ennis & Jack were homosexual just by looking at them).  It's completely removed when Ennis breaks down in their May 1983 argument (and loses control of his emotions, perhaps the first - or second time - that happened since the "thing" overtook him, at the bottom of the landing steps to the apartment over the laundromat in 1967, when Ennis kissed Jack). 

He never puts that mask back on after that (at least not with so much rigidity).  His face never again seems to give his whole personality the impression of his mask's ghastly pallor.  He appears much more vulnerable.  He refuses to carry on the pretense of heterosexual romance with the waitress, Cassie.  There's a "young" look on his face when he sees Jack's parents in Lightning Flat, WY (when he attempts to collect Jack's ashes to take to Brokeback Mt.)  He even agrees to attend his daughter Alma, Jr.'s wedding.  His eyes are sad as he looks at the memorial he's made for Jack in his trailer, with the two bloody shirts from their last day on Brokeback Mt. (bloodied by Ennis's nose bleed caused accidentally by Jack) on a hanger with a postcard of Brokeback Mt.

Whatever it is that we see in Ennis's personality that draws us to him - or, whatever it is that we think we see in Ennis's personality - I think it starts to become clearer to us as we go over the details of the movie (again and again).  For those of who are so deeply moved by the movie, there is something deep inside of us that the movie has touched upon.  It is now emerging out of the depths of our minds, perhaps into conscious thought. 

It takes time for this happen.  In the meanwhile, we may feel a lot of confusion about Ennis and the other characters.  Our minds turn this way and that, as they grope their way through confusion to understanding.

To find answers to the question of Ennis's character, it's necessary to look at many different sides of his character.  These, of course, will leave varying impressions upon us, good and bad. 

We sort out which of these impressions seem most significant and which seem less significant.  I think it's vital that we always keep in mind what we find admirable in either Ennis or Jack (or any of the other characters).  We care about Brokeback Mountain because we care about what happens to the characters in it.  We care about the characters because we find something in them that moves us, that stirs our emotions.  I don't think Brokeback Mountain would have the effect upon us it has if we weren't touched to the heart by Ennis & Jack in some way.



I highlighted the portions that struck me, in particular. 

For you, it would seem then that Ennis's behavior toward Jack is due in part to a "revulsion" to aspects of Jack's behavior, and not really an issue of dominance -- i.e., imposing his will for the sake of exercising power.  From what you say here, Ennis did seem to have personal objectios to certain things about Jack, and would therefore imply an underlying incompatibility between them.

I would open the floor to reactions about this from the other members. 

It is a challenging proposition.


manhattangirl

  • Guest
Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #139 on: Jun 21, 2007, 09:26 PM »
But isn't the living that life of so call "normalcy" is exactly what is killing Ennis spiritually and mentally, along with  personality?

Ennis's sexuality is the reason for his trouble mind.  This may not be a popular opinion, but I truly think that Ennis identified  his homosexuality, named it, called it out, and tried to tame it.  Jack was just being who he was.   But Ennis thought on it, hid it, suppressed it.   It was this "thing" that he wrestle with.   In the same respect in some odd way accepted it, he had to for without accepting it how could he be with Jack whom he loved, need and wanted more than anyone in his life.   

On this basis alone whatever values, views of Jack, the need to conform is totally based on his fear, and his realization of his sexuality.    He loses part of himself every year that goes by.  He hardens his position with Jack, but at what cost?   What is left to him, until at the end love was what he really was fighting against.

Ennis wasn't a Puritan,  he didn't look down on Jack for going Mexico, he was enraged, jealous, hurt.   He knew why Jack went to Mexico, how could he stop him from going, what could he do keep him faithful, giving it only to him?   And what is Jack to do, when the man he love and want, limits him to once or twice a year be with him.  It's amazing that Jack returns every year, and why?  He loves Ennis.     Jack wasn't like Ennis, nor was he suppose to be.   Ennis was his own creation.   

Two things were at the root of Ennis's being and caused him to struggle with his identity as a man:  his sexuality and his fear of it.  To control both whatever Ennis said or done was to keep safe the "thing" that caused him great pain, confusion, doubt, but something he couldn't live without.  IMO.







Offline aintfoolin

  • Ennis
  • ******
  • Posts: 1623
  • Gender: Female
  • " You and him did'nt go up there to fish"...
Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #140 on: Jun 22, 2007, 06:55 AM »
But isn't the living that life of so call "normalcy" is exactly what is killing Ennis spiritually and mentally, along with  personality?

Ennis's sexuality is the reason for his trouble mind.  This may not be a popular opinion, but I truly think that Ennis identified  his homosexuality, named it, called it out, and tried to tame it.  Jack was just being who he was.   But Ennis thought on it, hid it, suppressed it.   It was this "thing" that he wrestle with.   In the same respect in some odd way accepted it, he had to for without accepting it how could he be with Jack whom he loved, need and wanted more than anyone in his life.   

On this basis alone whatever values, views of Jack, the need to conform is totally based on his fear, and his realization of his sexuality.    He loses part of himself every year that goes by.  He hardens his position with Jack, but at what cost?   What is left to him, until at the end love was what he really was fighting against.
for going Mexico, he was enraged, jealous, hurt.   He knew why Jack went to Mexico, how could he stop him from going, what could he do keep him faithful, giving it only to him?   And what is Jack to do, when the man he love and want, limits him to once or twice a year be with him.  It's amazing that Jack returns every year, and why?  He loves Ennis.     Jack wasn't like Ennis, nor was he suppose to be.   Ennis was his own creation.   
Ennis wasn't a Puritan,  he didn't look down on Jack
Two things were at the root of Ennis's being and caused him to struggle with his identity as a man:  his sexuality and his fear of it.  To control both whatever Ennis said or done was to keep safe the "thing" that caused him great pain, confusion, doubt, but something he couldn't live without.  IMO.








Yes, he was hurt, jeaulous , shocked and very angry  (which stems from the hurt ), that his suspision was confirmed about Mexico.   Even shoved and threatened Jack. As a man who grew up with certain values, Ennis may very well have been repulsed by his lover Jack , paying strangers for sex in Mexico.  Giving away a part of himself that Ennis selfishly considered his alone. These values are something apart from his love for Jack.  Ennis will always love Jack , for enlightening him to true love alone though he may disagree with Jack on some matters.  He had these values before he met Jack.
He was raised up in a home where everyone walked basically the straight and narrow road through life. Order and obediance ruled , or you would be dealt with with a firm hand. He must never stray from his past upbringing or there will be bad consecquences to  be paid. This drill went on until it was fully ingrained in his head. Jack, visiting Mexico to have cheap sex with someone is totally * out of order*  in Ennis's mind though Jack did it out of desperation for *closeness* physically with someone.

Ennis saw a graphic picture of death at a young age which I feel made Ennis fear death( and a horrible death like he saw) , traumatized him into thinking that if he allows his true self to shine through, He will be hurt or killed and even worsre for him, have happen what he is convinced happened  concerning Jack's death. . The tireirons got him. This may or not be true but to Ennis it is a *most likely* scenario.
 Ennis's fears are what drives alot of his decisions in the relationship with Jack he wants to protect Jack, thus preserving the love he has for him, It's not vindicative  on his part to dominate Jack either. Yes, Ennis is a very masculine, dominanant personality. but he will never be willing to hurt Jack directly by not fully committing to the relationship by living together.
 I have often spoke of Ennis's sacrifices to be with Jack when he could. He quit jobs to be with Jack. Suffered through the humiliation of divorce from Alma, although saddened to tears  over it ,he had to realize it was best, but he also felt the loss of his family and his failures concerning them.  All to be with Jack.

And sweet Jack was there, through all of it . Met Ennis's fam at some points along the way and treated them with respect, Met Ennis for 20 years to spend time with him. Loved above and beyond for Ennis,
I still believe  that Ennis really wanted to be what Jack wanted him to be, but Jack was asking something of Ennis that Ennis not just would'nt give.., but could'nt give.  Could'nt ready himself for what  he was sure would befall them if they defied a narrow minded society. His fears ruled him, but so did his basic  core values and beliefs,To him, it's Earl and Ray all over again , but this time, it was going to be some one HE loved. His Jack.  I think he really believed this .

 In the end Ennis greived for what could have been, but  most of all he greived for the companionship,  yes, the sex, the understanding , the acceptantace , the friendship,  and yes the love he had for Jack. Everything he had in Jack was no longer availiable to him , not because he wanted to dominate Jack but because he could'nt protect him. This is MO.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #141 on: Jun 22, 2007, 07:02 AM »
But isn't the living that life of so call "normalcy" is exactly what is killing Ennis spiritually and mentally, along with  personality?

Ennis's sexuality is the reason for his trouble mind.  This may not be a popular opinion, but I truly think that Ennis identified  his homosexuality, named it, called it out, and tried to tame it.  Jack was just being who he was.   But Ennis thought on it, hid it, suppressed it.   It was this "thing" that he wrestle with.   In the same respect in some odd way accepted it, he had to for without accepting it how could he be with Jack whom he loved, need and wanted more than anyone in his life.
   

Excellent!  My thought, exactly.


There is an intrinsic dichotomy within Ennis -- call it a split identity.  A part of him rejects his true nature, whereasthe other part reacts to Jack with whole heart and mind.  The struggle between these two competing halves for dominance is the true source of Ennis's pain.

Quote
On this basis alone whatever values, views of Jack, the need to conform is totally based on his fear, and his realization of his sexuality.    He loses part of himself every year that goes by.  He hardens his position with Jack, but at what cost?   What is left to him, until at the end love was what he really was fighting against.

Ennis wasn't a Puritan,  he didn't look down on Jack for going Mexico, he was enraged, jealous, hurt.    He knew why Jack went to Mexico, how could he stop him from going, what could he do keep him faithful, giving it only to him?   And what is Jack to do, when the man he love and want, limits him to once or twice a year be with him.  It's amazing that Jack returns every year, and why?  He loves Ennis.     Jack wasn't like Ennis, nor was he suppose to be.   Ennis was his own creation.   

Two things were at the root of Ennis's being and caused him to struggle with his identity as a man:  his sexuality and his fear of it.  To control both whatever Ennis said or done was to keep safe the "thing" that caused him great pain, confusion, doubt, but something he couldn't live without.  IMO.

Agreed.  There was jealousy in Ennis's reaction.  It must have surprised Ennis too.  Perhaps he had never admitted it until then that he cared about who Jack consorted with.  He cared because that part of him that reacted to Jack did not want to share him with anyone else. 

This was quite unreasonable, given that Ennis wanted his cake and eat it too, so to speak.  It reveals the fissure in Ennis's nature...


Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #142 on: Jun 22, 2007, 07:08 AM »

***

 Ennis's fears are what drives alot of his decisions in the relationship with Jack he wants to protect Jack, thus preserving the love he has for him, It's not vindicative  on his part to dominate Jack either. Yes, Ennis is a very masculine, dominanant personality. but he will never be willing to hurt Jack directly by not fully committing to the relationship by living together.

 I have often spoke of Ennis's sacrifices to be with Jack when he could. He quit jobs to be with Jack. Suffered through the humiliation of divorce from Alma, although saddened to tears  over it ,he had to realize it was best, but he also felt the loss of his family and his failures concerning them.  All to be with Jack.

***

 In the end Ennis greived for what could have been, but  most of all he greived for the companionship,  yes, the sex, the understanding , the acceptantace , the friendship,  and yes the love he had for Jack. Everything he had in Jack was no longer availiable to him , not because he wanted to dominate Jack but because he could'nt protect him. This is MO.

I think what you also say here is also true, aintfoolin.   I really do believe that Ennis insisted on his point of view because this was the only way he knew to protect their love for each other.

Ennis's flaw was his inability to see any other possibility beyond that point of view.  He was so dominated by this fear that it made him blind to the possibilities of taking risks.  Sadly, he found this out all too late.

 

Offline ksxks

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 11571
  • Gender: Female
  • brokeback got us good
Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #143 on: Jun 23, 2007, 12:52 AM »
I think what you also say here is also true, aintfoolin.   I really do believe that Ennis insisted on his point of view because this was the only way he knew to protect their love for each other.

Ennis's flaw was his inability to see any other possibility beyond that point of view.  He was so dominated by this fear that it made him blind to the possibilities of taking risks.  Sadly, he found this out all too late.
 

So sad, that Ennis couldn't break out of that limited view.  And it kept being perpetuated by his staying in the small town and only going to the wilderness to meet Jack.  Whereas Jack knew some of the bigger cities.  Besides Jack being a risk-taker, and as you said, Thomas, risk was not part of Ennis's nature.  It might have been, though...

kathy
They were respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected.

manhattangirl

  • Guest
Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #144 on: Jun 23, 2007, 07:13 PM »
Kathy, tpe , aintfoolin, great exchanges.    Ennis was not a risk taker like Kathy and tpe pointed out,  "I'll stick with beans", comment showed us that.   Ennis may have been a dominant male, but he also was subserviant to the rules.   Jack was not a dominant male, and was submissive to Ennis, but broke the rules when needed.   This is what made Ennis almost crazy with fear and longing for Jack, could it be that control was the only answer in his keeping Jack on that short leash?   


Offline ksxks

  • Jack + Ennis
  • *
  • Posts: 11571
  • Gender: Female
  • brokeback got us good
Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #145 on: Jun 24, 2007, 09:16 PM »
MG:  Put perfectly, succinctly.  This seems at the crux of this matter between them regarding dominance.

kathy
They were respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected.

Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #146 on: Jun 25, 2007, 07:01 AM »
So sad, that Ennis couldn't break out of that limited view.  And it kept being perpetuated by his staying in the small town and only going to the wilderness to meet Jack.  Whereas Jack knew some of the bigger cities.  Besides Jack being a risk-taker, and as you said, Thomas, risk was not part of Ennis's nature.  It might have been, though...

kathy

What seemed to be Jack allowing Ennis to dominate the situation may after all be just Jack understanding that Ennis didn't want to take the risks.  Jack was surprisingly too acquiescent.  Perhaps it was his way of  not insisting on Ennis taking the risks he himself took.  Jack should have known better.  To get what he wanted -- a life relatively out in the open with Ennis, risk was absolutely necessary.


Offline tpe

  • Moderator
  • Jack + Ennis
  • ***
  • Posts: 96691
Re: WAS DOMINANCE AN ISSUE?
« Reply #147 on: Jun 25, 2007, 07:08 AM »
Kathy, tpe , aintfoolin, great exchanges.    Ennis was not a risk taker like Kathy and tpe pointed out,  "I'll stick with beans", comment showed us that.   Ennis may have been a dominant male, but he also was subserviant to the rules.   Jack was not a dominant male, and was submissive to Ennis, but broke the rules when needed.   This is what made Ennis almost crazy with fear and longing for Jack, could it be that control was the only answer in his keeping Jack on that short leash?   

Good point, manhattangirl: "I'll stick with beans" certainly illustrates Ennis's point of view.  Subservience to the "rules" was something that dominated Ennis himself -- and not only in his relationship with Jack, apparently.  His not understanding Alma's growing demands may in part be due to this innate conservatism.